Gnome Rogue... Reroll?

[blanks]

Hi All...

Long time player coming back to the lands after a 5-6 year break.

Had a level 70+ cleric/bard/sorcerer before, but always loved picking boxes, so I wanted to start fresh with a rogue.

So, after a little research (Guess too little) I decided on a gnome archer/picker rogue...

I thought I read somewhere with a +5 str bonus, and 509 (strength), a gnome rogue could fire a longbow from stealth at 3rt..

I'm firing at 9 seconds... Anyway, long story short...


Are gnomes a good race for rogues/archers in general? The RP for being a gnome is cool, but the strength/encumberance is awful. On top of that, I can't really depend on fixskills in other weapons because of the height difference? I.E. gotta leg before you can ambush.





So, should I just reroll my rogue into another race? Does anyone recommend a race that would be ideal for archery & locksmithing? Additionally, I have a pocket wizzie to give me haste. Its just awful open shooting at a 7 second RT and depending on surge to get down to 6. (Sorry if my thoughts are everywhere, no sleep and hoping that I didn't waste the last month leveling a gnome rogue for no reason.)

[Cereal Killer]

Gnomes are a hard sell for archery because of the strength penalty. They actually get a bonus to loading crossbows, but ... crossbows aren't so hot. If you want more manageable RT you can use composite bows without a noticeable difference in damage until you see mobs in plate. Personally I wouldn't go down the archery route unless I had a natural strength of +0.

[blanks]

So, gnomes for archery = bad.


Are gnomes good at anything? Anything for a rogue at least?

If I reroll, would the best race for a picker/archer rogue be something like a half-krovlin/giantmen? Or maybe human...?

[Cereal Killer]

Are you a burger gnome or a tree-hugger gnome?

[blanks]

burger

[Cereal Killer]

I think Starchitin is a successful Burghal Gnome rogue. You might want to seek him out and ask him for advice. I'm pretty sure he's an archer too, by the way.

Another possible option is UAC. UAF is affected by equal parts (strength and agility)/4, so you won't see much of a penalty. Only problem is that since you're short, you'll be forced to leg things.

[blanks]

Yeah, I think thats one of the biggest annoying factors... Having to leg things..


So, overall tho, there are much better races for an archer/picker gnome, correct?


Like stats wise... Half-Krov, Half/Full ElF/ Giant > Burger Gnome?

[Victorj]

Best picker rogue are halflings (+15 dex bonus), but they have the same strength issues as your burghal. Next would be the 10 dex bonus elves (sylvans or dark elves, your burghal gnome is also in this group but as mentioned, they suffer from str issues). They have 0 str bonus, so it's not terrible. With max str, 509 and surge, they can fire aimed+hiding in 4 seconds with a longbow. But they have spirit issues, if you're gonna go CoL.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have the 5+ str bonus races (humans, dwarfs, half-krol, giant). All of these can hit 3 secs hiding+aiming with longbow with max str + 509 + surge. 3 of these races can hit 3 secs aimed in the open with max str + 509 (all except for humans), if you want to go the open archer route (ie, full plate, 3x dodge). Out of those 3, I would prefer dwarves just because of their innate TD bonus and excellent spirit regen. Of course, they're not as good in picking because of their 0 dex bonus.

If it was me, I would pick sylvs just because they're the 2nd best pickers, and don't have the negative trading modifiers that dark elves get.

[Cereal Killer]

Half-krolvin have a ridiculously large log penalty which makes me not pick them. Any race with at least +0 strength will eventually be able to shave 4 seconds off their bow rt with 100 str and Rank 5 surge, so you can just pick based on whether you want to fire faster by choosing more strength or hit harder with more dexterity.

Given that you like the RP of a shorter race, I would suggest dwarf. Nice str bonus, no dex negative, stat bonuses that will help with locksmithing, good logic bonus, ridiculous spirit regen, and to top it all a TD boost (boon to all squares).

[blanks]

So, overall gnomes make bad rogues?

I thought with +15dex bonus they would be tied for best picker?

In the end... Would they and halfling be the hardest hitting due to dex bonus?


Is the negative logic bonus really that awful?

[Victorj]

I could be wrong because I don't have a gnome, but the website says they only have a 10 dex bonus.

https://www.play.net/gs4/info/races/burghalgnome.asp

But yea, if they had a 15 dex bonus, they and halflings would have the highest AS.

[Wrathbringer]

Pretty sure gnomes are strictly for carrying around gears, tinkering and annoying voices.

[blanks]

Gnomes are definitely the worst at carrying gear...


So, agreed that sylvan makes the best Archer/picker rogues?

Is the negative logic that big of a deal for half knov?

[Gizmo]

Gnome arent so bad, but for a normal archer...youd be crazy to play one.

I had a very successful gnome archer but i also had a toy or two to help basically negate that str penalty of theirs.

[Latrinsorm]

I'd reroll Gnome Rage... in bed.

[Suppressed Poet]

There are ways around the mechanics if you want to play the gnome.

1) Buy encumbrance potions from the simucoins store.

2) Get a bunch of strength enhancives. You can add +20 to strength bonus this way. With a fusion bow, adv guild badge, and worn enhancives...it's really not that hard to do.

[Danical]

Are gnomes a good race for rogues/archers in general? The RP for being a gnome is cool, but the strength/encumberance is awful. On top of that, I can't really depend on fixskills in other weapons because of the height difference? I.E. gotta leg before you can ambush.

I'm not sure if you're dead set on being an archer only, but you may want to consider TWC + OHE. You can also get mechanical flaring weapons that adds to the RP of Gnomish tinkerer.

If you're going to do locksmithing, then you'll have at least 404. With six more ranks, you'll have access to 410, which will give you the ability to prone many creatures thus alleviating the Height restrictions of Gnomes. I realize this isn't a trivial amount of MTPs.

Gnomes have a racial bonus to Divert (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Divert) which can be great if you're in a room with multiple creatures. If two creatures are in the room, Divert one away and target the remaining creature. If more than two creatures are in the room use Peer (Direction) (http://www.play.net/dr/info/commands.asp?l=P#PEER) (I realize this is a DR page but it works the same way for PEER direction and I don't see an equivalent on the GS page or Krakiipedia) to find a room with no creatures in it, Divert one creature to that direction, Sneak to that direction, and proceed to take that creature out. However, if you have tanked your Influence stat, then this may be problematic but supposedly Divert has a high chance of success.

As an ambushing Gnome Rogue, you'll definitely want to get a disk to reduce your encumbrance from boxes but also as a courtesy to other players in the hunting area to let them know you're in the room if you're hiding. This should not be an issue as you already have a pocket wizard.

That said, if you're set on Archery, then do as others have said: 509, 606, and a combination of +20 Strength Bonus from Surge of Strength and enhancives.

Hope this helps.

[blanks]

Not set on archery, just thought gnomes were the best archers for some reason and archery saves point for picking... Then finding out that gnomes only have a +10 to dex, makes mme want to be one as a picker even less. Additionally, yes, a gnome could twc, but with the negative strength gain, and subpar dex bonus, whats the point?

I understand that there is a rp value for gnomes, because it has been fun... But it's not fun hunting subpar because of race and having to change leveling/training style for it.. Example, other races do everything better.

Now I don't know what to do, I felt like I wasted the last month to title a subpar rogue due to race

[Danical]

Not set on archery, just thought gnomes were the best archers for some reason and archery saves point for picking... Then finding out that gnomes only have a +10 to dex, makes mme want to be one as a picker even less. Additionally, yes, a gnome could twc, but with the negative strength gain, and subpar dex bonus, whats the point?

I understand that there is a rp value for gnomes, because it has been fun... But it's not fun hunting subpar because of race and having to change leveling/training style for it.. Example, other races do everything better.

Now I don't know what to do, I felt like I wasted the last month to title a subpar rogue due to race

I wouldn't say that Burghal's have a subpar Dex bonus because they are tied for second best in the game. Burghals can work, but like you said, you'll have accept the fact that other races will be better than a Burghal when it comes to Archery. That said, having capped a Burghal Gnome, I would never choose a Burghal again except for serious RP consideration.

[blanks]

Thank you. I sincerely appreciate everyone's words and thoughts. I'm a little angry that I have to resolve, knowing myself.


In all honesty, I'm not attached to archery in the slightest bit. It's the total opposite. I think it's a hassle and very expensive. The only reason why I considered it was due to the fact that it was suppose to be able to save points, and since I thought gnomes had the best dex, and could fire a longbow with no disadvantages.. I was oh, best picker rogue... Would be a gnome and they are the best at archery! So, I tthought instant win since bows don't use height restrictions

Now, after fixstat and fix skill, I found out the harsh reality, and it's awful.

So, now, since I know for a fact gnomes are pretty much horrible as a rogue... What race would make a very strong picker while being able tohhunt efficiently? Doesn't matter weapon type.

[Victorj]

You were right in the fact that archery is the cheap option TP wise in terms of effectiveness. I mean, lets take look at a 3x picking path for archery compared to standard sword+board.

Archery:
1x armor (5/0)
2x ranged (9/3)
1x cm (4/4)
2x ambush (6/3)
1x pt (3/0)
2x dodge (6/3)
3x picking (7/7)
3x disarm (7/7)
2x hide (3/3)
2x perception (0/3)
Total - 50/33

Sword+board
1x armor (5/0)
1x shield (4/0)
2x edge (6/3)
1x cm (4/4)
2x ambush (6/3)
1x pt (3/0)
2x dodge (6/3)
3x picking (7/7)
3x disarm (7/7)
2x hide (3/3)
2x perception (0/3)
Total - 51/33

For sword+board, you're not as effective since you're not fully 2x CM (it would be 59/41, which is pretty impossible precap). So you're either going a little gimped on AS, or you're dropping down to 2x pick/disarm to make up the 2x CM. There's plenty of rogues who've gotten to cap with 1xCM, so it's not impossible or anything. You can ask Gib if he's around, since I'm pretty sure he went that route.

[Jeril]

You were right in the fact that archery is the cheap option TP wise in terms of effectiveness. I mean, lets take look at a 3x picking path for archery compared to standard sword+board.

Archery:
1x armor (5/0)
2x ranged (9/3)
1x cm (4/4)
2x ambush (6/3)
1x pt (3/0)
2x dodge (6/3)
3x picking (7/7)
3x disarm (7/7)
2x hide (3/3)
2x perception (0/3)
Total - 50/33

Sword+board
1x armor (5/0)
1x shield (4/0)
2x edge (6/3)
1x cm (4/4)
2x ambush (6/3)
1x pt (3/0)
2x dodge (6/3)
3x picking (7/7)
3x disarm (7/7)
2x hide (3/3)
2x perception (0/3)
Total - 51/33

For sword+board, you're not as effective since you're not fully 2x CM (it would be 59/41, which is pretty impossible precap). So you're either going a little gimped on AS, or you're dropping down to 2x pick/disarm to make up the 2x CM. There's plenty of rogues who've gotten to cap with 1xCM, so it's not impossible or anything. You can ask Gib if he's around, since I'm pretty sure he went that route.

Gib used the above training somewhat, he had no combat maneuvers until he picked up 404 which was about level 30, then had 1x at about 60, then 1.6-1.7 at cap. Yes, you are more effective at 2x combat maneuvers then you are with less but it isn't like you should really be hurting either, as an ambushing rogue you don't need large endrolls to be killing things.

Gib also pushed for 50 ranks of perception early on then let that slide to 1x, the extra perception helps a lot when you don't have much disarm skill but later on isn't needed.

[blanks]

Does dex and agl bonus play a role in shaving off bow rt or is that only for melee weapons?

If I had a pocket wizard... Should I even really be bothering with archery or should I just permahaste with a big weapon?

Just trying to role something that is great at picking but also efficient at hunting.

[Jeril]

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_the_Bow_%28guide%29

[waywardgs]

I'll just leave this here.


>fame burghalgnome 1

Fame List -- Burghal Gnomes -- Starting Rank 1
________________________________________________
Rank| Name | Fame |Lvl|G|Profession
------------------------------------------------
8 Gnimble 370901694 100 M Bard
387 Lamie 60015300 100 F Wizard
606 Boora 41956452 89 M Wizard
827 Jadah 32109176 100 F Empath

[Danical]

Does Lamie still play?! I haven't seen her in FOREVER.

[Jeril]

Does Lamie still play?! I haven't seen her in FOREVER.

She doesn't, she had a kid and got a life years ago. Came back briefly once but that was still a few years ago.

[Jhynnifer]

I haven't read the entire thread yet because forum browsing is a bitch on my phone. But what about Uac? Does that become unviable for a gnome to be an Ambushing brawler?

[Jeril]

I haven't read the entire thread yet because forum browsing is a bitch on my phone. But what about Uac? Does that become unviable for a gnome to be an Ambushing brawler?

No, just falls under the same category as sword/board where you are restricted by height from immediately going for the kill shot against most targets. Brawling also costs more to train then sword/board: edged 2/1, brawling 3/1. It has been brought up numerous times on the officials that brawling should have the same costs as edge but they adamantly refuse to change training costs on anything, for anyone, no matter how much sense it makes.

[Whirlin]

brawling should have the same costs as edge but they adamantly refuse to change training costs on anything, for anyone, no matter how much sense it makes.
Potential reasons:
Developer who did original TP costs left, nobody knows how the magic code works.
DBA lost the tables!
Person who did class balancing (probably never really existed) left... nobody really knows how things would play out with nerfing/buffing.
Databases have cascade update enabled. Changing TP costs would cause a recalculation on all characters ever, crashing gemstone forever... I mean, I can almost crash the server by just pulling up Paupers members... Imagine trying to make changes to every rogue character out there?
Ain't nobody got time for that.
Simutronics cares less about players and game balance than the current and former president care about Kanaye.

[Jeril]

Simutronics cares less about players and game balance than the current and former president care about Kanaye.

As if we all didn't know this was the reason.

[Shaps]

Forget being a rogue... roll a Bard and 2x pick/disarm... be able to sing.. pick 90% of all boxes.. and do a bunch of other cool stuff.