3x dodging..is it worth it?

[Candor]

So for a capped rogue who is already at 2x dodging...going to 3x requires an investment of 800 mental and physical tps. Can any rogues comment on how much of a difference in defense there is between 2x and 3x dodging skill?

[Jeril]

As a warrior in fullplate my DS went up by 60 going from 2-3x dodge, I found it worth while and I pay twice the cost for dodge that you do. Even some warriors who use shields have found 3x dodge worth it. Whether you train it now or later I think would depend on your choice of hunting area and how many outside spells you wear. I hunt the rift so I can't really pile on spells that I don't know but if you hunt OTF or Nelemar it is much easier. The other day for the kobold invasion of the landing I had on 601, 602, 618, 101, 103, 107, 202, 503, 509, 911, 401, 406, 414, 430, 1712, and symbol of protection on, which is a rare thing for me, and my DS was 570 in offensive.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

Absolutely. That's my goal, I am at like 2.5x now trying to get it up to 3x. Makes a huge difference.

[Archigeek]

Agreed with Jeril. It's worth it for sure if you're not using a shield. I've done it and I even use a tower shield, so I'm getting the least benefit possible. Why? Because you run out of positive stuff to train in, and at 3.4 million exp just to get the last 101 ranks, it becomes a positive target. You should be happy that it only costs you half as much. As a rogue, I can't imagine not going for it as a first goal on cap, unless you're using a shield.

[waywardgs]

I just capped and my first goal as a rogue is to finish dodge. I'm at 272 ranks and climbing. Then I'll get something cheap and stupid like trading just because.

[JustDan]

3x dodge was my first postcap goal. It's huge for DS for me as an open archer. When in full defensive stance, even in full plate, I outright evade most ambush attempts while foraging in OTF.

[tallkris3]

Agreed with Jeril. It's worth it for sure if you're not using a shield. I've done it and I even use a tower shield, so I'm getting the least benefit possible. Why? Because you run out of positive stuff to train in, and at 3.4 million exp just to get the last 101 ranks, it becomes a positive target. You should be happy that it only costs you half as much. As a rogue, I can't imagine not going for it as a first goal on cap, unless you're using a shield.

I'm 3x shield as a warrior and 2.7x dodge trying to finish out the last... About 1300 mtps away. It get to the point with that much shield and dodge you use a smaller shield. I get better benefits using a large shield then I do a tower shield.

While I hated Jeril for convincing me to spend 4000 mtp, it's worth it.

[Archigeek]

Yeah I think the sweet spot is probably a large, but I do believe I'll stick with my tower for other reasons, like, "tower shields are cool!"

[ZeP]

Yeah I think the sweet spot is probably a large

Just saving this for when everyone tries to downplay the large shield.

[Jeril]

Just saving this for when everyone tries to downplay the large shield.

This is going to depend more on your profession and shield maneuvers you want to use. Rogue shield maneuvers are geared more towards small/medium, paladins to large/tower, and warriors have a mix. As far as DS goes, you get more using a small/medium when dodge ranks are equal to or greater then shield ranks. And now with shield swiftness rogues/warriors can gain even more DS when using a small or medium shield. Roblar uses a medium shield, with his 303 ranks shield and dodge, he gained 27 DS when he picked up 3 ranks(max) switfness. His DS in offensive without spells is 449, 10x shield of course but his armor is only 7 or 8x. Also has a 10x weapon, which adds a whole 7 DS while in offensive.

[Roblar]

Yea go medium!

After further testing (and numerous lighting changes) its at 459 sans spells, with 6x armor (10x shield/weapon). That did include a 3 agility bonus item.

I tried all the shield sizes awhile back after finishing 3x dodge to help decide if I was going to pursue shield re-sizing at any future events. Turns out medium had the highest DS (in offensive stance anyway, which is the stance that matters to me).

And then shield manuevers w/swiftness came out and cemented it for me. Though I really would love shield prop up too.

Edited to add:
This is with balanced skill b/w dodge & shield use, tower & large shields have the higher block % and ranged/hurled DS, as well as higher DS in other stances.

[Candor]

OK I'm convinced...thanks.

With a medium shield and SHIELD SWIFTNESS, it appears going to 3x dodge is very much worth it. 800 tps is going to be long haul though.

[tallkris3]

OK I'm convinced...thanks.

With a medium shield and SHIELD SWIFTNESS, it appears going to 3x dodge is very much worth it. 800 tps is going to be long haul though.

Long haul? Hands down the cheapest of them all. It took me from June to November to go from 2x to 2.5x.

[Archigeek]

I am glad you guys are getting good use of swiftness, but I would really have a hard time giving up trample. 5x knock down with very high success rate = warrior who finally has a crowd control skill.

[Candor]

As an ambushing rogue, I find that I like swiftness a lot. And if I want to knock something down, that's what SWEEP is for. SUBDUE puts things on their knees pretty well too, and will last longer on a good roll.

[Archigeek]

Yeah I get that your choices would and should be different as a rogue. Just to clarify for those who CAN train in trample though, you can knock down 5 at once with trample mastery. This is especially great in places like warcamps, where area affect spells are a no go.

Like Jeril said, your options are more geared for small shields, so swiftness is probably a good choice for a rogue.

[Methais]

and symbol of protection on, which is a rare thing for me

That's why you (and your victims) have AIDS.

[tallkris3]

Yeah I get that your choices would and should be different as a rogue. Just to clarify for those who CAN train in trample though, you can knock down 5 at once with trample mastery. This is especially great in places like warcamps, where area affect spells are a no go.

Like Jeril said, your options are more geared for small shields, so swiftness is probably a good choice for a rogue.

Trample was hands down the best shield skill to come out, although I'm not complaining about the extra TD that we got either.

[Jeril]

I am glad you guys are getting good use of swiftness, but I would really have a hard time giving up trample. 5x knock down with very high success rate = warrior who finally has a crowd control skill.

You can use trample with any shield size, but I am sure several of your other shield skills require a large/tower.


That's why you (and your victims) have AIDS.

Dork.

[Archigeek]

You can use trample with any shield size, but I am sure several of your other shield skills require a large/tower

True, but you get a penalty, and I hate penalties. I guess it's moot to this discussion anyway, since only warriors can train in trample.

[Jeril]

True, but you get a penalty, and I hate penalties. I guess it's moot to this discussion anyway, since only warriors can train in trample.

Other Requirements: Smaller shields provide a penalty to success chances.

It does say this in the docs, but Roblar seems to be able to use trample just fine, perhaps we should start a thread in the warrior folder for this and do a bit of research to see what kind of penalty you actually get?

[Archigeek]

Does he trample? I've never seen him do it. By all means, let's do some tests.

[Roblar]

Yea I have max in trample and enough in mastery for 3 opponent knockdown.

We can test the penalty this weekend.

[Aluvius]

Also would be interesting to know the racial penalties/bonuses, ie a giantman's vs a Halfling's. :)

[Jeril]

Against something of average size giantman have a +10 bonus, and from what a friend told me, halflings are at -20. It might only be -10, just have to ask a halfling who uses a shield and has shield bash.

[Archigeek]

We just ran some tests with me and Roblar and Mohrgan. Two humans and a giantkin. We tested with no strength bonus and with +50 strength bonus, and with all 4 shield sizes. No party was encumbered and all 3 parties were in offensive stance. All tests performed with a hoarbeam shield and tested 2x, retested with other shields and same results for three other shields with different enchants.

Kerl: Human, Tfocus 5, Trample 5. Shields: B -10, M -5, L +0, T +15.
Mohrgan: Human, Tfocus 5, Trample 4. Shields: B -10, M -5, L +0, T +15.
Roblar: Giantkin, Mfocus 5, Trample 3. Shields: B -5, M +10, L +5, T +10.

Long story short: the trample penalty/bonus is a straight progression from -10 to +5, mastery adds +10, and Giantkin would appear to get a +5 bonus. There may or may not be hidden rolls for the trample training but we did not test for that. We only tested for the visible penalty/bonus.

[Aluvius]

Huh, I would have thought giant's would see a larger non hidden bonus than 5 over a human.

[Archigeek]

The opponents were Silverback Orcs btw. I am not entirely sure, but we assumed they were medium sized and would have the least impact on end results. Critter size has a direct impact on shield maneuver results.