Women in infantry

[cwolff]

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2013/11/19/women-will-be-first-to-graduate-from-marine-corps-infantry-training-course/?hpt=hp_t3

All these articles keep making infantry school out to be this hardcore test of one's abilities. For example:


The women went through the same physically grueling exercises as the male Marines, including carry 90 pounds of combat gear on a 12.5-mile march, Krebs said.

I did MCT and SOI back in the day and we did nothing in those schools that was anywhere near as taxing as what I did with my unit. Whatever comes of this, I just can not imagine that a large percentage of women can function in a marine rifle company.

[Latrinsorm]

How large a percentage of men can?

[Gelston]

Yes, ITB is a joke compared to unit training. I am not against females in the infantry, so long as standards are never lowered and they have to take the exact same fitness tests as men. No more of that flex arm hang bullshit. They need to make them do pullups. They need to have the exact same run time requirements as men as well.

If they can pass the EXACT same tests, physically, metally, etc, as men... Let them in, but don't lower standards just to please politicians.


How large a percentage of men can?

99% of Marine Corps Infantrymen can. There is always the 1% that slips through cracks. They get booted elsewhere eventually, whether they serve out their contract being the Company Gunny's bitch or they get discharged for being shitheads.

[Gelston]

Fuck it. I had an elaborate response to this and I change my mind. I don't really care to talk about it because in my mind the issue is resolved. There are women who do this already and they are private military contractors. The formal military institutions are run by dinosaurs and that is why contractors run the show. That's it.

I remember this one time PMCs thought they ran the show, and then they ended up strung across a bridge in Fallujah.

[Latrinsorm]

Yes, ITB is a joke compared to unit training. I am not against females in the infantry, so long as standards are never lowered and they have to take the exact same fitness tests as men. No more of that flex arm hang bullshit. They need to make them do pullups. They need to have the exact same run time requirements as men as well.

If they can pass the EXACT same tests, physically, metally, etc, as men... Let them in, but don't lower standards just to please politicians.



99% of Marine Corps Infantrymen can. There is always the 1% that slips through cracks. They get booted elsewhere eventually, whether they serve out their contract being the Company Gunny's bitch or they get discharged for being shitheads.I did not ask what % of Marine men, but % of men in general.

[Thondalar]

Fuck it. I had an elaborate response to this and I change my mind. I don't really care to talk about it because in my mind the issue is resolved. There are women who do this already and they are private military contractors. The formal military institutions are run by dinosaurs and that is why contractors run the show. That's it.

I think your hate has blinded you to simple physics. I get it, you're Superwoman. You have military training. I'll just be blunt. In infantry combat, I want a person next to me who can get the job done. I want someone that would give ME a fight. It's not at all internet bravado to say I would absolutely destroy you in a fight. They have weight classes for a reason. You can go for the balls or the knee cap or whichever other area you want that doesn't require as much force to get the job done, but you're simply not going to have the force even for that. You can probably shoot as good as any man, but if it comes down to hand-to-hand, or it comes down to you needing to get my 225 pound unconscious body out of the firefight, I want you to be able to do it.

Please don't confuse this with "you damn women! Stay in the kitchen like you're supposed to!" I could give a shit less what women do, as long as they can actually do it. Unless you're built like that monster wrestling chick...Chyna?...I just really don't see an up side to being front-line infantry.

[Gelston]

I did not ask what % of Marine men, but % of men in general.

That doesn't matter. As I said, we have standards. Those standards should be maintained. If a woman can do it, more power to her. Let her in. If a man can't do it, he needs to look elsewhere.

[cwolff]

I did not ask what % of Marine men, but % of men in general.

When it comes to graduating from ITB, a high percentage of young men could do it. The school is not that physically demanding. Operating with a marine rifle company on the other hand can be very very hard.

[cwolff]

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

This officer wrote about women in infantry. She played ice hockey in college so it sounds like she was probably pretty fit. She also says she runs a 295/300 physical fitness test.


Five years later, I am physically not the woman I once was and my views have greatly changed on the possibility of women having successful long careers while serving in the infantry. I can say from firsthand experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, and not just emotion, that we haven’t even begun to analyze and comprehend the gender-specific medical issues and overall physical toll continuous combat operations will have on females.

One thing she brings up is that part of the push to integrate is to fight the glass ceiling because you need combat to get the big jobs in the pentagon. Her take on it is that given the demands of infantry life, you might not have women with 20 year careers who are in a position to get promoted to those jobs. They'll be out on a medical.

[Gelston]

In my ITB class, I think we dropped about 20%. Mostly due to medical, but a few couldn't handle the physical aspects. And some people failed tests. Because they are stupid.

Seriously, one question was:

The M16A2 is an example of:
a. a tank
b. a service rifle
c. a legal form

[cwolff]

The first four women to complete infantry training in the history of the Marine Corp.

That's a great picture. I bet they're stoked.

The Marine Corps is going to keep running women through the infantry schools for 1 year and then use the results to figure out what to do in the future. There's even talk of creating task specific physical tests. Things like loading heavy artillery shells by hand. That way they can develop some stats that go beyond just push ups and crunches.

So far no women have passed the Infantry Officers course. As much as I wouldn't like to say this to a zero, the officer courses are a total bitch. The stuff they do there is 10x what we did in bootcamp or ITB.

[Gelston]

The first four women to complete infantry training in the history of the Marine Corp.

http://i.imgur.com/MFlkKY6.jpg

Corps*

They still have 2 more days! But yes, they'll probably make it. Out of 15.

IOC is tougher because it is more individual effort and, well, they want to drum you out of it. ITB is made to pass. "Nine of the 10 females that volunteered out of The Basic Course failed to make it through the first day of IOC. The remaining female volunteer dropped because of an injury from the course a week later."

[cwolff]

Corps*

They still have 2 more days! But yes, they'll probably make it. Out of 15.

IOC is tougher because it is more individual effort and, well, they want to drum you out of it. ITB is made to pass.

Actually one of them is hurt. She can't graduate with her class until she heals and does the combat fitness test. So far we're 0/10 in IOC and 3/15 in ITB. It'll be interesting to see how the numbers look after one year and also how the standards change over the course of this year.

[Gelston]

The CFT is easy. Marines do that now, biannually, with the PFT regardless of gender/MOS.

My Battalion, 1/1, helped to test it out. The maneuver under fire portion kicked my ass, because I was retarded and didn't bring any water so I was dying. Still completed it in a decent time though.

[Drevihyin]

I guess spooning under a poncho liner under six inches of snow would get much more exciting.

[Drevihyin]

Last time I checked those "Infantry" types had the same unofficial motto as the United States Postal Service, Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night...

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

And yet they lower the standards anyway....

I know female Marines pissed about this ludicrous nonsense.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20131118/NEWS/311180039/Corps-postpones-pullups-women-cites-potential-risks

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

Oh and just in case there is any question about my stance on women in the Infantry. Hell no. It's science.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/04/10/heavy-loads-could-burden-womens-infantry-role.html

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

Do you want to know more?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HmT5jqy-iE

[Tisket]

Who wants to crawl through mud anyway. The men can keep their precious infantry!

[Thondalar]

Oh and just in case there is any question about my stance on women in the Infantry. Hell no. It's science.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/04/10/heavy-loads-could-burden-womens-infantry-role.html

Which was my only point. The muscle mass simply isn't there, regardless of what you do.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

And this too...

http://www.businessinsider.com/female-troops-against-women-in-combat-tammy-duckworth-katie-petronio-2013-2

[Thondalar]

And this too...

http://www.businessinsider.com/female-troops-against-women-in-combat-tammy-duckworth-katie-petronio-2013-2

Gunny brings up a very good point. If women can't make it as linemen in the NFL, why on God's Green Earth would we even want to try to make them linemen in the infantry?

Ok, yes...I know. Being 6'7" 340 wouldn't be good for anyone on the battlefield...I was joking. But still, the point is...if we fully integrate women to front-line infantry, we need to open up everything. Boxing, MMA, soccer, volleyball(ok, they might actually dominate that one)....but you get my point. There is a damn good reason men and women are separate in every single endeavor requiring physical fitness. Men are simply more fit. It's not a pissing contest, it's just scientific fact.

[Latrinsorm]

They have weight classes for a reason.Tell that to the Gracies.
Which was my only point. The muscle mass simply isn't there, regardless of what you do.The muscle mass isn't there on average, but that's just as true for men as women; that's why they have these tests in the first place.
There is a damn good reason men and women are separate in every single endeavor requiring physical fitness. Men are simply more fit. It's not a pissing contest, it's just scientific fact.In the same way that comparing averages is irrelevant, comparing extremes to each other is irrelevant. You don't have to be Haile Gebrselassie to pass the running test. There are exceptional women who can pass every physical test you can dream up (including the hand to hand combat with Thondalar test). This does not mean they can outdo exceptional men at those tests, and it does not have to. The only relevant grade is "pass".

Here is how math works.
Set 1: {3, 5, 6, 7, 9}
Set 2: {1, 1, 2, 4, 7)
The average of set 1 is 6. The average of set 2 is 3.
The maximum of set 1 is 9. The maximum of set 2 is 7.
But if all you need is a 6, then you can get four soldiers by using both sets and only three if you restrict yourself to the first.

This is how math works.
That doesn't matter. As I said, we have standards. Those standards should be maintained. If a woman can do it, more power to her. Let her in. If a man can't do it, he needs to look elsewhere.It matters if your argument against women doing it is that most can't, which is the point of cwolff's that I was responding to.

[Tisket]

That reminds me...why on earth do they separate men and women in Olympic (and presumably other venues as well) shooting events anyway. Never understood that reasoning.

[Gelston]

I can understand the ones that have skiing and such in the middle.

[Tisket]

Not talking about combined events.

[Tisket]

Honestly, I think it's because women shoot better than men.

[Buckwheet]

That reminds me...why on earth do they separate men and women in Olympic (and presumably other venues as well) shooting events anyway. Never understood that reasoning.

Because the women would dominate in shooting events I think.

Edit: I didn't see your above post. Right now I think the US womens shooting team shoots like 2 or 3% better than the men. I believe the "worst" female shooter is 1% better than the worst male.

Edit 2: They do or used to do mixed skeet until the mid 90s I think? The women were shooting better than the men and it stopped shortly after because the women were also breaking world records during that time period.

[Taernath]

Because when you've been on patrol for 12 days sex is what you want to do with your stinkass amirite.

Nobody says it has to be GOOD sex. That shit happens all the time.

[cwolff]

... There are exceptional women who can pass every physical test you can dream up (including the hand to hand combat with Thondalar test). This does not mean they can outdo exceptional men at those tests, and it does not have to. The only relevant grade is "pass".

Here is how math works.
Set 1: {3, 5, 6, 7, 9}
Set 2: {1, 1, 2, 4, 7)
The average of set 1 is 6. The average of set 2 is 3.
The maximum of set 1 is 9. The maximum of set 2 is 7.
But if all you need is a 6, then you can get four soldiers by using both sets and only three if you restrict yourself to the first.

This is how math works.It matters if your argument against women doing it is that most can't, which is the point of cwolff's that I was responding to.

Yes, there are definitely women that can pass and as we have seen at ITB, will pass the basic requirements. Please keep in mind that the minimum passing grades are very low. Most Marines do much better than the minimum. Those who pass physical events with minimal standards are either forced to get better, pushed out of the unit or shuffled to some pogue position. They aren't totally useless and there aren't so many of them that they can't be absorbed without lowering the entire unit's effectiveness.

One point I was making in reference to these articles is that they are saying things like "the women have to be able to do 3 pullups, just like the men" or "they completed a 12 mile ruck march, just like the men." This is accurate per se, but it's also a lie by ommission. The physical fitness test is scored out 300 points. When I was in you only needed 225 to be considered 1st class. So it sounds good to say that you are a 1st class fitness dude, but it doesn't actually mean much in practical application. I think that adding women to infantry units will just be the same as adding a bunch of weak guys, which isn't really in any of our best interests.

One of the other guys who's been in recently can probably comment on the average pft scores vs. the minimum but I bet there is a very big difference.

[Gelston]

3 pullups won't even net a 1st class. When I was in 280ish was the minimum score for a PFT unless you wanted people to talk shit about you.

[Tisket]

Because the women would dominate in shooting events I think.

Edit: I didn't see your above post. Right now I think the US womens shooting team shoots like 2 or 3% better than the men. I believe the "worst" female shooter is 1% better than the worst male.

Edit 2: They do or used to do mixed skeet until the mid 90s I think? The women were shooting better than the men and it stopped shortly after because the women were also breaking world records during that time period.

Was just reminded of one of the most arduous endurance races of them all, the Alaskan Iditarod. In the 80's there were like five winners in a row who were women. Granted four of the winners were the same woman but still. It prompted a popular t-shirt at the time that said: "Alaska, where men are men, and women win the Iditarod."

Anyway, it does make me scoff a bit at the notion that women are physically inadequate in some way.

[Gelston]

Was just reminded of one of the most arduous endurance races of them all, the Alaskan Iditarod. In the 80's there were like five winners in a row who were women. Granted four of the winners were the same woman but still. It prompted a popular t-shirt at the time that said: "Alaska, where men are men, and women win the Iditarod."

Anyway, it does make me scoff a bit at the notion that women are physically inadequate in some way.

I'd say that is because those sort of things are more individual effort. Infantry is heavily team based, including lifting other fully loaded people into windows, or over walls, or dragging them away, or kicking down doors, etc. All while wearing 80 pounds or more of shit and them wearing the same.

According to this http://www.topendsports.com/events/summer/medal-tally/rankings-sports-shooting.htm the best shooters are from the US anyways, so I think only Americans and people from Norway should be allowed in the infantry... Although the infantry is quite a bit more complex than being able to fire weapons.

[Allereli]

The most insulting thing I find about this thread is the assumption that all the women who passed barely passed. No scores/times were published, nothing was quoted about how well they actually did. I did 11 pull ups in 8th grade. Women are capable of doing way more than the bare minimum.

Here's a reminder of what women athletes look like:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19/howard-schatz-photos-women-professional-athletes_n_4297902.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

[Gelston]

Most of the women I knew in the Marine Corps could barely do 1 pullup. They'd be the same ones bitching about not being allowed in the Infantry.

I've seen women who can do 20 pullups, too.

Generally, we'd try to shoot for 20 pullups, but we wouldn't really make fun of people who did 16 or so. If you did under 15, you need to get your fat ass back up on that bar.

[Tisket]

I'd say that is because those sort of things are more individual effort. Infantry is heavily team based, including lifting other fully loaded people into windows, or over walls, or dragging them away, or kicking down doors, etc. All while wearing 80 pounds or more of shit and them wearing the same.

According to this http://www.topendsports.com/events/summer/medal-tally/rankings-sports-shooting.htm the best shooters are from the US anyways, so I think only Americans and people from Norway should be allowed in the infantry... Although the infantry is quite a bit more complex than being able to fire weapons.

If you'd been paying attention at all you'd have noted that I don't support women in infantry but, that doesn't mean I believe them unable to compete with men in many areas.

Also, that link you posted? It doesn't mention the fact that women were not allowed to compete in Olympic shooting events until 1986. Almost all the shooters listed were prior to that.

[AnticorRifling]

Most of the women I knew in the Marine Corps could barely do 1 pullup. They'd be the same ones bitching about not being allowed in the Infantry.

I've seen women who can do 20 pullups, too.

Generally, we'd try to shoot for 20 pullups, but we wouldn't really make fun of people who did 16 or so. If you did under 15, you need to get your fat ass back up on that bar.

Pretty much this.

[Gelston]

If you'd been paying attention at all you'd have noted that I don't support women in infantry but, that doesn't mean I believe them unable to compete with men in many areas.

Also, that link you posted? It doesn't mention the fact that women were not allowed to compete in Olympic shooting events until 1986. Almost all the shooters listed were prior to that.

Um, what? I just pointed out the US produces the best shooters. (If you look at medal count, we do by a LOT.) However, women have been allowed in Olympic shooting since 1968. The events were marked "men" but they allowed anyone, so women and men competed against eachother. There are two female medalists to prove it, one example being Margaret Murdock who took a silver in 1976.

This http://realbiathlon.blogspot.com/2011/11/who-shoots-better-men-or-women.html shows women as being more accurate, but men generally shoot faster(Premature shooting?).

[Tisket]

Yes, there was mixed skeet shooting allowed in 68 but solo women events weren't allowed until 84.

This is a really interesting look at women's participation vs. men's participation in the Olympics and when events were added for the women: http://www.nwhm.org/online-exhibits/olympics/participants.htm

[cwolff]

The most insulting thing I find about this thread is the assumption that all the women who passed barely passed. No scores/times were published, nothing was quoted about how well they actually did. I did 11 pull ups in 8th grade. Women are capable of doing way more than the bare minimum.

Here's a reminder of what women athletes look like:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19/howard-schatz-photos-women-professional-athletes_n_4297902.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

I'm not even trying to suggest that they are doing only the minimum. I do not think they're smoking the PT course though either but I really don't know for sure. What I did point out was that the articles about this keep crowing over the fact that the women did 3 pull-ups "just like the men", or that they completed a "greuling" 12 mile hike just like the men or even that they completed the grueling 59 day infantry course. None of those three things are remarkable in any way.

[AnticorRifling]

3 pull ups is passing only if you're shit hot on the other two portions right? If you hit the "passing" mark on all three it's still an overall fail isn't it?

[Gelston]

Yeah, min on all three will fail you. You pass all the events, but your score is below 3rd class.

Each pull up is 5 points, so doing 3 will only give you 15 points and 135 is the min. score to pass the PFT as a whole.

[AnticorRifling]

Yeah, min on all three will fail you. You pass all the events, but your score is below 3rd class.

And at that point you're not even people.

[cwolff]

3 pull ups is passing only if you're shit hot on the other two portions right? If you hit the "passing" mark on all three it's still an overall fail isn't it?

Ya, that's right. You need a minimum overall score but if you do the minimums in three events the score will be too low.

For men, you're shooting for 20 pullup at 5 points a piece, 100 crunches at 1 point per, and then the best 3 mile time you can do. The running is usually where people lose points because it's hard as hell to hit 18:00.

[Gelston]

If you do the minimum on all events, for ages 17-26, you'll score a 105. You don't have to be shit hot, on the other events though. Getting the minimum on pull-ups and the run, and then doing 80 crunches will get you a 135.

Of course, I've never seen anyone not max out crunches. *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*

[Warriorbird]

I think women in the infantry are fine if the tests are never reduced. I don't think there should be a lot. A position in the infantry is fine for an insanely dedicated woman.

[AnticorRifling]

Ya, that's right. You need a minimum overall score but if you do the minimums in three events the score will be too low.

For men, you're shooting for 20 pullup at 5 points a piece, 100 crunches at 1 point per, and then the best 3 mile time you can do. The running is usually where people lose points because it's hard as hell to hit 18:00.

My best 3mile pre ridge swan dive was 20min. pullups and crunches easy mode fuck that run I was never a runner pre Marine Corps.

[AnticorRifling]

I think women in the infantry are fine if the tests are never reduced. I don't think there should be a lot. A position in the infantry is fine for an insanely dedicated anyone.

Fixed.

[Gelston]

I got a sub 18 once. I was hung over too. I just picked someone and stayed behind them the entire time. I usually got 19ish.

[cwolff]

I got a sub 18 once. I was hung over too. I just picked someone and stayed behind them the entire time. I usually got 19ish.


My best 3mile pre ridge swan dive was 20min. pullups and crunches easy mode fuck that run I was never a runner pre Marine Corps.

I'm jealous. My best was 18:04. I think my worst was 19:30 and most of them were about 18:10-30. I never did crack 18:00. Man, I hated PFT day. I did have one of my best PT tests though on a day where I was out all night with a stripper from Foxy Lady's. She dropped me off at 0600 for formation at about 0630. There's something to be said for PT and drinks...and flip strippers.