Narost and re-mapping Elanthia

[masterdtwin]

I will be editing this with notes as the conversation evolves. If you have any questions about things, check here first to see if it has been mentioned/requested/etc.


Basic Idea

A complete re-design and mapping consolidation of Elanthia. I have a collection of the VSD's of Tsoran's original maps of Elanthia and might quite possibly be the only person other than Tsoran himself. Currently, the collection itself is quite old, and does not include a great many changes that have occurred. I believe I have the documents from sometime around 2004-2006. Since Tsoran's departure the collection of maps we use was piecemealed through various submissions.

I would like assistance with rebuilding and updating the Elanthia maps, as well as updating them appropriately in Narost. This will take a lot of work. Rebuilding the maps alone will be a huge undertaking to be perfectly honest; I cannot do this alone. I am willing to do all of the mapping and updating, since I quite proficient with visio and have the source documents. Putting it simply - Updating the narost database is not something I can do in conjunction with what I would like to do for the maps.


Map Template

The template will be available for viewing RSN. I will probably be using IFW for the starting point for a couple reasons. It is relatively simple and contains almost all of the necessary components. Second, messing it up in narost would cause the least amount of pain for users. This would allow me to test various ideas, making it easier to update narost when it comes time for that.

Current ideas for the template will include the following:

Basic design set by Tsoran
All maps will be 8.5x11 landscape - Making it possible for anyone who wishes to print them off
Meanwhile one giant map will be created, 36" tall landscape, for anyone wishing to plot it out.
The intent is to make the map as simplistic as possible, while still containing all of the necessary information.
Honorifics will be given towards anyone who originally created the map.


Consolidated Comments & Notes

Confirmed

What will change - The maps, and the coordinate to room number translation in the database.
What will not change - Room numbers - The user experience - ;repo download narost - ;narost - point and click
Will the narost script itself have to be changed? Yes, absolutely. The changes are extremely minor, and to be honest I'm not certain exactly how it needs to be changed - however I do know that Tillmen knows how.

Guilds / Houses / Town Interiors / Society / other will be included if maps are available. Even a rough sketch scanned will make it extremely easy for me to add it in. How I plan to include them I am unsure, however I intend to include them.

I will take care of differences in Platinum, and map the platinum-only areas as people bring them to my attention.
Doughal(?) will be assisting with shattered.

Distinction between hunting areas to help people with bounties.

Being discussed

Re-creating the naming convention - Unknown how it will impact people or how best to resolve it.

Template design, possible differences between in-town and out of town.

[eulogia]

I like the look of the classic Tsoran maps. Some of the newer maps from the post-Tsoran era are not as attractive. Please copy his maps as much as possible!

[Archigeek]

I have a 11x17 spiral bound book of maps that Pavo Ratti's player put together years ago, that I use to this day. They were basically Tsoran's maps, but he put great borders on them full of coats of arms etc and lots of great color work and bound them with a laminated cover. Pavo hasn't played in years, but I'll thank Steve for the maps for a long long time.

I realize this is completely not what you're talking about. Heh. SO sue me for getting off topic in a PC thread...

[Ardwen]

heh I still have plotter printed poster sized Zepath maps of the then known world. with huge numbers of notes all over them, I'd love to see a better organized mapping system, but I am way too lazy to actually map anything, blame this derailment on Kerl.

[masterdtwin]

Okay, so at least I have some interested in it getting done. What I am needing is some assistance to complete the project.

1. I need some people to work narost. Once I complete a map, I will likely need someone to work mapmap and narost - ensuring it is updated properly since the new maps will be different.
2. I need testers and verifiers. For starters I am in platinum, and with things being a bit different I need some people to verify prime. As far as platinum I can do some of the verification - but I suspect most of my time will be spent working on the maps.
3. Finally I would like to come up with some form of consensus on how to do the mapping. Obviously Tsoran had a very premise, so that will likely be the basic design. That being said I have a few ideas, and would like opinions on what people would like to see (i.e. borders, page size, etc.).

Also, I will be posting this into one of the main PC forums since not everyone checks out the lich project. I just figured there would be more people who know how to use narost and mapmap here.

A note on the plans...

1. I plan on changing the standard node square to contain four smaller squares, each signifying something. RGBY - Red = Monsters, Green = Sancted, Blue = Supernode, Yellow = Special. Special is basically things like puzzles or anything else of significance that doesn't fall into any other category.
2. I am still uncertain on the actual size of the maps that I will be using - I will likely be maintaining the 8.5x11 frame, landscape style. Classic compass and legend, signature with based on recognition.
3. The naming convention will likely change - With the number of places we have - I think it's time to separate things a bit more. There's no reason for us to have 15 variations of EN-blah. If you're trying to find something and forget where it is, a bit more distinction will help. How this will work I am not certain, but we shall see.

[JackWhisper]

There's multiple levels of nodes. For instance, a table is a level 2, whereas TSC in Landing is a level 3. How do you define nodes? How will you address this? I am all for modernizing this, but a lot of scripts rely on Narost to work. For instance, Child2. Uses Narost as a primary mapping function to get back to the guard of the town. Will you be changing Narost into a different system? Or leave the legacy and simply overwrite it, keeping Narost as the honorific Tsoran deserves for the copious time he put in to deliver us the maps we still use to explore Elanthia today?

[JackWhisper]

Oh, and like Geek1 and Geek2 above me, I am Geek3 and I have a notebook containing the lands when Landing and Icemule were all there was. It's got a printout of the AOLWEBBrowser screen for GSIII. That dwarf looks badass, WHAT?!

[Whirlin]

There's multiple levels of nodes. For instance, a table is a level 2, whereas TSC in Landing is a level 3. How do you define nodes? How will you address this? I am all for modernizing this, but a lot of scripts rely on Narost to work. For instance, Child2. Uses Narost as a primary mapping function to get back to the guard of the town. Will you be changing Narost into a different system? Or leave the legacy and simply overwrite it, keeping Narost as the honorific Tsoran deserves for the copious time he put in to deliver us the maps we still use to explore Elanthia today?
Post above:

Okay, so at least I have some interested in it getting done. What I am needing is some assistance to complete the project.

1. I need some people to work narost. Once I complete a map, I will likely need someone to work mapmap and narost - ensuring it is updated properly since the new maps will be different.

[masterdtwin]

There's multiple levels of nodes. For instance, a table is a level 2, whereas TSC in Landing is a level 3. How do you define nodes??

Supernodes will be denoted by a green mark in the square, If it is a level 2, it will have a number 2 in it, if it is level 3, it will have a number 3 in it. Roman numerals.


I am all for modernizing this, but a lot of scripts rely on Narost to work. For instance, Child2. Uses Narost as a primary mapping function to get back to the guard of the town.

I'm almost 100% certain you are referring to GO2 and STEP2, which will be completely unaffected. I am unaware of any scripts that actually use narost as a form of mapping. If they do, they are not using GO2 properly.


Will you be changing Narost into a different system? Or leave the legacy and simply overwrite it, keeping Narost as the honorific Tsoran deserves for the copious time he put in to deliver us the maps we still use to explore Elanthia today.

This is entirely up to the community, however I was planning on simply over-writing it. I was however planning on ensuring all maps have an honorific to Tsoran, as he deserves it no questions asked. Mind you also, that some of the maps that Tsoran "created" were also originally created by other people (myself included), without honorifics.

EDIT - Honorifics will be given to the most recognized author of a map. For some of the newer maps, honorifics will be given to those who deserve it.


Post above:

I love it when people point out the obvious... You didn't actually read my post, otherwise you would know the answer. Thank you Whirlin.

[JackWhisper]

You're answering a different question than what I asked.
Child2 works in conjunction with Step2. And it still has bugs/deadspots all over the place bleh.
NAROST, the lich repo we download, has all the maps.

IE: ;repo download NAROST <--- Will NAROST be changed? Map to map, Zepath did a lot of work, as did a ton of others. Tsoran just modified and expanded, like quite a few others did again. That isn't what I meant, or was asking. I was asking if the system will change. Not the THESE ARE TSORANS MAPS notes.

[JackWhisper]

Also, will you be mapping Interiors? For instance, let's say you walk into Paupers, will a house map show up? Frith's inn in Landing? Nightowl Pub in Icemule? Or are interiors a bit too much to ask? I myself would love an interior map inclusion in this. It'd be a badass addition, and something that is not used very much at all.

LIKE FOR BULLSHIT GRIFFIN'S KEEP IN STUPID EN! YEAH I GOT LOST TRYING TO PAY A DEBT SO WHAT!
Ugh~

[masterdtwin]

You're answering a different question than what I asked.
Child2 works in conjunction with Step2. And it still has bugs/deadspots all over the place bleh.
NAROST, the lich repo we download, has all the maps.

IE: ;repo download NAROST <--- Will NAROST be changed? Map to map, Zepath did a lot of work, as did a ton of others. Tsoran just modified and expanded, like quite a few others did again. That isn't what I meant, or was asking. I was asking if the system will change. Not the THESE ARE TSORANS MAPS notes.

Honestly, I don't think you have an understanding of how it works - hence the confusion. Let me break it down to you... Short answer is no, the system will not change.

Narost is a script, that performs a few functions.

First, it loads up maps for people to view. These maps will be changed, to include honorifics for the original authors.

Second, it allows for a function of GO2. If you click on the map, it uses the coordinates on the map to translate it using a database into a room number, then performs a GO2 call to the room number.

What will change - The maps, and the coordinate to room number translation in the database.

What will not change - Room numbers - The user experience - ;repo download narost - ;narost - point and click

Will the narost script itself have to be changed? Yes, absolutely. The changes are extremely minor, and to be honest I'm not certain exactly how it needs to be changed - however I do know that Tillmen knows how.

[masterdtwin]

Also, will you be mapping Interiors? For instance, let's say you walk into Paupers, will a house map show up? Frith's inn in Landing? Nightowl Pub in Icemule? Or are interiors a bit too much to ask? I myself would love an interior map inclusion in this. It'd be a badass addition, and something that is not used very much at all.

LIKE FOR BULLSHIT GRIFFIN'S KEEP IN STUPID EN! YEAH I GOT LOST TRYING TO PAY A DEBT SO WHAT!
Ugh~

One step at a time. That being said, when I re-do them I will likely be adding a lot of things. I'm not certain how I will be doing it yet though. Remember also, I am Platinum and not a member of any house / MHO / whatever the fuck they're called now.

And yes, I am a rude little fucker... I'm also answering all of your questions, and taking your comments into consideration when I work out the details for this project. Like for example, I now know how I plan on identifying different levels of nodes now.

[JackWhisper]

As long as you do Griffin's Keep, and like The VOLN temples, COL, and SUNFIST, holy shit you'll be loved game-wide.

[JackWhisper]

And that's what I wanted to know, if we'd still be downloading NAROST or if it'd be something new like NIWTDRETSAM. <--- So not saying that out loud.

[JustDan]

As long as you do Griffin's Keep, and like The VOLN temples, COL, and SUNFIST, holy shit you'll be loved game-wide.

And the guilds.
And the locker annexes.
And Feywrot Mire.

[masterdtwin]

And the guilds.
And the locker annexes.
And Feywrot Mire.

I will be doing the wizard and cleric guilds. Past that I don't have anyone high enough to map the other guilds. I will be updating and adding things, exactly how I will be doing that I am not certain yet.

[JackWhisper]

Ugh. House maps would kick ass and there's plenty of people who could help map that. I am lifetime Paupers, I'd do Paupers. The guilds would be groovy, there's already one for the rogue guild, but not the other ones so much. The Mire? no clue. Never hunted there. Sounds like EG! =P

[masterdtwin]

Ugh. House maps would kick ass and there's plenty of people who could help map that. I am lifetime Paupers, I'd do Paupers. The guilds would be groovy, there's already one for the rogue guild, but not the other ones so much. The Mire? no clue. Never hunted there. Sounds like EG! =P

If there is a map to work with, I will incorporate it into the re-design.

[Drew]

I have a 11x17 spiral bound book of maps that Pavo Ratti's player put together years ago, that I use to this day. They were basically Tsoran's maps, but he put great borders on them full of coats of arms etc and lots of great color work and bound them with a laminated cover. Pavo hasn't played in years, but I'll thank Steve for the maps for a long long time.

I realize this is completely not what you're talking about. Heh. SO sue me for getting off topic in a PC thread...


Back in 96 I had this awesome map of Wehnimer's that was drawn like a real town with corridors and the street names running down the middle instead of lines and points like zepath's maps. I wish I still had my old documents so I could pull it up but I used it so much back then, it was awesome.

[Whirlin]

Ugh. House maps would kick ass and there's plenty of people who could help map that. I am lifetime Paupers, I'd do Paupers. The guilds would be groovy, there's already one for the rogue guild, but not the other ones so much. The Mire? no clue. Never hunted there. Sounds like EG! =P

It's on my to-do list:
Sorc Guide
Paupers Map
Dex Testing

Not necessarily in that order.

Unfortunately, I've lost motivation after being disappointed at RtCF (yes.. QQing), AND lost time due to purchasing a house that's older than the US (Basically have a two year long to-do list)

[doughal]

I'm interested. I'll help with Shattered mapping.

Interiors would be extremely useful.

Love the old Tsoran maps, they look better than many of the newer ones.

Suggestion - the old maps don't necessarily translate into hunting areas as defined by the game (adventurers guild, society tasks, etc) Would it be possible to notate on the maps boundries for the various hunting areas. Such that if you get a task from the AG for killing X dangerous critters, we'd know where to find them just by looking at the maps, as opposed to just guessing if we are in the right area for that critter.

One thing I've always wanted was a wall sized map of all of elanthia with basically every room all on one map. Would it be possible to put these resulting maps we create into one big VSD file once this is done?

[Allereli]

I already have sorcerer guild maps in vsd that need to be tweaked a little. I've posted them before. Maetriks also has nice ones on Krakiipedia

[masterdtwin]

I'm interested. I'll help with Shattered mapping.

That would be a great help - I will keep you noted when I start working on it.


Suggestion - the old maps don't necessarily translate into hunting areas as defined by the game (adventurers guild, society tasks, etc) Would it be possible to notate on the maps boundries for the various hunting areas. Such that if you get a task from the AG for killing X dangerous critters, we'd know where to find them just by looking at the maps, as opposed to just guessing if we are in the right area for that critter.

I would very much like to incorporate this, As far as how I'm still not exactly certain. I would like a way to differentiate hunting areas without making the maps look stupid. Perhaps having some different form of legend design between in and outside of town.


One thing I've always wanted was a wall sized map of all of elanthia with basically every room all on one map. Would it be possible to put these resulting maps we create into one big VSD file once this is done?

I was actually planning on doing this while I build the maps. Do you have any particular size constraights? off the top of my head I'm not certain what a standard plotter's length is.

[DaCapn]

I'm almost 100% certain you are referring to GO2 and STEP2, which will be completely unaffected. I am unaware of any scripts that actually use narost as a form of mapping. If they do, they are not using GO2 properly.

There is one area I can think of where there's sort of some Narost overlap with other scripts. The map_name method returns the name of the appropriate map for a map database room (e.g. `;e echo Room.current.map_name` or `;e echo Room[228].map_name`). In this case, the name of the map can have some impact in scripts. Personally I use this in a FWI transporter script. I find the nearest in-town node, step2 until I'm on the same map as that node, then step2 until my transporter works. If the naming convention deviates from the existing one, there could be some issues. I picked this up from another script so I know I'm not the only one using it.

Suggestion/lobby: on my Icemule trail map, I colored the ice rooms blue (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?78363-IMT-Trail-Map-%28ice-colored%29 I have an odd note about different levels of ice in there). It's pretty big help when you're trying to rescue and such (if you're gating someone out, you don't want to let them land on some ice).

Also, as far as I know, if you change the layout and size of any map, the clicking and position tracking features of Narost need updating. I'm pretty sure there's a database with pixel positions for each room or something of that nature.

I'd be willing to contributing some layouts to certain interior areas which don't have maps.

[JustDan]

off the top of my head I'm not certain what a standard plotter's length is.

36" is pretty standard. There are bigger ones (some of the big OCE machines in our office have 48" rolls), but 36" is pretty safe.

[masterdtwin]

There is one area I can think of where there's sort of some Narost overlap with other scripts. The map_name method returns the name of the appropriate map for a map database room (e.g. `;e echo Room.current.map_name` or `;e echo Room[228].map_name`). In this case, the name of the map can have some impact in scripts. Personally I use this in a FWI transporter script. I find the nearest in-town node, step2 until I'm on the same map as that node, then step2 until my transporter works. If the naming convention deviates from the existing one, there could be some issues. I picked this up from another script so I know I'm not the only one using it.

Yes, this is absolutely correct. I'm fairly certain this will mess up any script using this form of call. To be honest though I'm not exactly certain why they would be using this - perhaps someone with more coding experience could tell me.


Suggestion/lobby: on my Icemule trail map, I colored the ice rooms blue (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?78363-IMT-Trail-Map-%28ice-colored%29 I have an odd note about different levels of ice in there). It's pretty big help when you're trying to rescue and such (if you're gating someone out, you don't want to let them land on some ice).

Perfect, will do.


Also, as far as I know, if you change the layout and size of any map, the clicking and position tracking features of Narost need updating. I'm pretty sure there's a database with pixel positions for each room or something of that nature.

That is exactly why I need people to help me update the narost database.


I'd be willing to contributing some layouts to certain interior areas which don't have maps.

Would be appreciated, when I start working on it I will put requests for existing maps to areas that I need.

[Rolton-Sammich]

Back in 96 I had this awesome map of Wehnimer's that was drawn like a real town with corridors and the street names running down the middle instead of lines and points like zepath's maps. I wish I still had my old documents so I could pull it up but I used it so much back then, it was awesome.
I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about and I've seen it on the web within the last year, but I'll be damned if I can find it in my saved documents now.

But searching for it I found instead this upside-down map of Kelfour's Landing... what madness is this? http://www.zorro.20m.com/rolemaster/campaign/kelfourslanding.jpg

[masterdtwin]

I have updated my original post with a much needed expansion and consolidation of discussions. Please review.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?86813-Narost-and-re-mapping-Elanthia

[crb]

Here is my contribution:

1. Don't redo narost. Make a new script, call it pampam or something, and have it reference your new files stored in a new location or with new file names. You can build pampam out of narost, just don't overwrite it, savvy? You want to maintain the old version, the old maps, in their current state, should your new system explode, or otherwise fail. That is a big headache for all involved. So don't overwrite anything, pick new file names for all your new files.

[masterdtwin]

Here is my contribution:

1. Don't redo narost. Make a new script, call it pampam or something, and have it reference your new files stored in a new location or with new file names. You can build pampam out of narost, just don't overwrite it, savvy?

It doesn't work that way. GO2 and NAROST use the same database. In order to do what you are suggesting, I would have to copy and significantly modify a multitude of scripts.


You want to maintain the old version, the old maps, in their current state, should your new system explode, or otherwise fail. That is a big headache for all involved. So don't overwrite anything, pick new file names for all your new files.

I don't think you understand how this would be implemented. It would be tested and verified before the updates to the maps, database, and scripts were updated on the server. As just a user, you would see nothing but a map update that works.

The only possible exception of that is a small number of scripts. The specifics on that I will be looking into when I have free time. Also, once some of the more experienced coders get a chance to read this, they may be able to shed some light onto it.

EDIT:

It may be possible to modify GO2, MAPMAP, and NAROST to include a completely separate set of databases that can be manually selected by individuals willing to work on this. This would entail using the current databases and modifying them - or building them from scratch. To be honest neither idea really sounds all that appealing, and would require changes from Tillmen to help accomplish (or at least a verification of change submission).

Athias

[poloneus]

Some of this conversation was Greek to me, but would we lose the stuff that has been given go2 room numbers but doesn't appear on any maps? I believe there were a lot of additions made piecemeal.

[masterdtwin]

Some of this conversation was Greek to me, but would we lose the stuff that has been given go2 room numbers but doesn't appear on any maps? I believe there were a lot of additions made piecemeal.

No. If anything, there would be a map for it instead.

[Allereli]

per request of someone in another thread and others mentioning it recently, here is an updated map of Twilight Hall. The thread starter has been sent the vsd

http://www.krakiipedia.org/w/images/thumb/1/12/Twilight_Hall.jpg/776px-Twilight_Hall.jpg

full size file at http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/File:Twilight_Hall.jpg

[masterdtwin]

The thread starter has been sent the vsd

Thank you much, Hopefully I will have a solid template available after this weekend.

[Mice]

Safe o assume this project is dead? Would you share the original VSD files you have from Tsoran?

Better to have the info out there and not lost forever. Id like to try my hand at some updates and I'm sure others would too.

Maybe you could create a Google Drive account and post the link? If you send them to me, I'm happy to create the drive and post the files. Thanks!