PDA

View Full Version : Polearmed sorcery for fun and profit (level 83).



Goat
11-12-2013, 03:59 AM
I've enjoyed taking a somewhat non-standard training path since I came back to GS about a year ago. I have stuck to 2x spells, which gave me TPs for all kinds of things - 1x FA, 1x Surv, 2x SA, 1.5x MIU, 1.5x sorc lore... and eventually .25x CM at level 82, once I tapered off some of those other skills.

Around level 75 I started wondering what I could do with a weapon. Turns out the stuff I would need to give up is pretty optional, especially since I was already at 21 ranks CM. I was a little concerned about losing DS vs a runestaff (ton of magic ranks = approx 1.3x trained THW defense), and I set things aside until such day as I get bored enough to go nuts.

EG happened. I picked up a dauntless heart for +10 AS. Then someone had a 7x naginata for sale for a decent price. Seemed like as good a time as any to pull the trigger. Someone sold me a 7x lance even cheaper a week later, and I found an agidex enhancive to get me swinging it in 5 seconds.


Old training
Dergoatean (at level 82), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Combat Maneuvers...................| 93 21
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 5 1
Physical Fitness...................| 184 84
Arcane Symbols.....................| 247 147
Magic Item Use.....................| 211 111
Spell Aiming.......................| 268 168
Harness Power......................| 182 82
Elemental Mana Control.............| 184 84
Spirit Mana Control................| 140 40
Sorcerous Lore - Demonology........| 105 25
Sorcerous Lore - Necromancy........| 192 92
Climbing...........................| 130 35
Swimming...........................| 136 38
First Aid..........................| 184 84
Trading............................| 184 84

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 45

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 20

Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 104

(and about 150 PTP left to spare)


New training
Dergoatean (at level 83), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Combat Maneuvers...................| 128 34
Polearm Weapons....................| 185 85
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 25 5
Physical Fitness...................| 185 85
Arcane Symbols.....................| 247 147
Magic Item Use.....................| 211 111
Spell Aiming.......................| 270 170
Harness Power......................| 183 83
Elemental Mana Control.............| 155 55
Spirit Mana Control................| 140 40
Sorcerous Lore - Demonology........| 58 12
Sorcerous Lore - Necromancy........| 173 73
Climbing...........................| 90 20
Swimming...........................| 134 37
First Aid..........................| 90 20
Trading............................| 40 8

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 45

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 20

Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 104
Training Points: 66 Phy 0 Mnt (222 Phy converted to Mnt)

My AS:
Pole arm: 185
CM: 17
Natural strength bonus: 16
7x weapons: 35
sym courage: 26
425: 35
enhancives: 17
509: 15
606: 10
211: 15
215: 25
307: 5
1606: 10
Self-spelled AS: 331 (not including 117)
Scroll/heart enhanced AS: 411
Scroll-enhanced physical DS: about 450

I am considered a fixstat that would shift 20 sorc spells to MnE and get approx +7 STR bonus, which would get me to 428. I could also drop spell aim entirely and pick up another ~+21 AS worth of CM.


Before going line by line on skills, I'll tell you how this has gone and how I've been hunting:

Maaghara - tear stuff up, but I can't learn much there any more.
Rift - bad idea. Self-spelled AS won't cut it. I can take out lunatics ~8 levels below me, but the vvrael are out of the question (But I can still hunt just fine as a pure). I need to pull out the naginata here because I'm so weighed down by enhancives, and I don't have 509/606 working for me.
Bowels (younger part) - frustrating with a naginata, but decent enough with a lance.
OTF - Goes very well. In particular, I can take down lesser construct barriers, but I can also hit other stuff.

I spell up pretty seriously. Besides my self-cast stuff, 202, 211, 215, 303, 307, 310, 503, 507, 509, 601, 606, 613, 905, 911, 1204, 1601, 1712. I can go a lot further if I'm not dealing with spellburst. Arcane symbols is one of the most important skills in this build - 1:26 per cast with a +5 enhancive, and infusion failures are very rare.

I can still hunt as a pure sorc just fine. I actually gained CS by moving 10 MnS ranks to MnE. I also have a ton of CS boosts to help out: +31 WIS enhancives, +18 AUR enhancives, 1711 scroll, dark elf. My runestaff is 6x acuity and tier 5 ensorcelled. I generally switch to the runestaff when I find a bunch of heavy boxes; it doesn't take much encumbrance to make my RT shoot up. I also blast away at stuff if the room gets a little swarmy.

Itchy curse is a good friend of mine now. That's -50 DS that lasts long enough to kill the critter. 708 is good, but many creatures can work around it (stomp instead of punch, etc), and I'm looking for a 140 end roll, which isn't super reliable with 2x spells. I 709 a lot on things that fall to it (prefer that over 410, because it should help a little at not getting snuck up on from the next room). I haven't been using 706 all that much. I'd rather stun as a byproduct of 719 or even 702, for the most part. I have 3 ranks of feint, and on some creatures it's pretty effective already. I'm definitely headed for rank 4.


My skills rationales
Armor Use, 8 ranks
I'm relying on a ton of enhancives, including greaves, a helm, and *two* aventails. I couldn't go up to scale without either dropping them or putting on brig. I'm absolutely okay with the 2% failure - I was okay with it even with a normal build

Combat Maneuvers, 34 ranks
Feint is great, and I have a rank of disarm and cdefense, too. The extra +17 AS is a big deal. I'm going to push this more than 1x/level until cap. I may also drop other skills to move this up. I understand this gives me a bit better creature maneuver defense, too. I'll take it.

Polearm Weapons, 85 ranks
Well, yeah. This is the point.

Multi Opponent Combat, 5 ranks
If I ever switch back to full pure, I think I'll keep the 5 ranks MoC. It's nice for 111, 713, and 720, and it negates half a critter worth of FoF. Two-target MSTRIKE is somewhat useful with the naginata (6 seconds) but not so much on the lance (10 seconds).

Physical Fitness, 85 ranks
Standard stuff.

Arcane Symbols, 147 ranks
Really integral part of the built. I can infuse without trouble, and my scrolls last a long time since I have good duration. That said, I'm pretty happy with what 147 gets me (162 with an enhancive), and I'm going to stop here.

Magic Item Use, 111 ranks
I don't unlock as often as I infuse, and this doesn't affect scroll durations, so I haven't pushed this as far. Stopping here.

Spell Aiming, 170 ranks
Primarily shows its worth with 720, and secondarily with 708 aim, though I do bolt on occasion. Bolting has synergy with this build in that I'm already focused on dropping DS a lot, though I can't invoke 513 if I'm going to swing, too.

Harness Power, 83 ranks
I'm actually considering dropping this just a little but I don't think I'll pull the trigger.

Elemental Mana Control, 55 ranks
Spirit Mana Control, 40 ranks
I wanted at least 140 bonus in each, since we don't know if 730 and 735 are impacted by bonus or ranks. 55/40 is the cheapest split that gives me a mana spellup.

Demonology, 12 ranks
I need to be able to phase small bags, if not many boxes. I have three different 15 pounds bags that I phase before each hunt. I wrote scripts to phase each and open them back up, and also scripts to extend rummage to work across multiple containers.

Necromancy, 73 ranks
I <3 711, and I use 730 often enough. I also rarely hit my weekly necro cap, so the bonus really does help there. I want to get back to 90, because the different in flare coverage with 90 ranks is 50% vs 25%, rather than 20% vs 15% with a runestaff. I'll 1x til I get there, and maybe rush it a few levels early.

Climbing, 20 ranks
I'll bump this when I went to go to plane 5. In the mean time I could consider dropping it altogether.

Swimming, 37 ranks
I might drop this once I'm out of the bowels. I can seek/return in and out of the rift and Nelemar.

First Aid, 20 ranks
I could drop this, but when I was at 0 right after fixskilling, I really missed being able to tend anything.

Trading, 8 ranks
I could also drop this, but it's pretty cheap for a 5% trading bonus.

Perception, 0 ranks
Can anyone tell me why I care about this? I know it matters for bandits, but I don't think it helps me with hunting, except as a tertiary skill for avoiding creature maneuvers.

Minor Elemental, 45 ranks
If I fixskill again, it'll be to drop 20 sorc spells for 20 of these (or drop spell aim for CM). That's 10 swinging AS and 10 DS at a cost of 3.4 CS.

Minor Spiritual, 20 ranks
My spirit CS is absolutely useless. Web would be nice, but I can dealt without it. Even with the TD pushdown it's not hitting anything. I slightly miss 125, and I don't miss 130 at all (symbol of return). I've never had 140. It would be nice in the rift.

Sorcerer, 104 ranks
I kept level+21 for ensorcelling more than CS, but with 2 weeks of experience, I wish I had swapped 20 sorc for 20 MnE.

Sorcasaurus
11-12-2013, 05:39 PM
I'd be curious to see some excerpts from your hunts.

I like playing with alternative builds. As long as you're having fun with it, it's effective enough.

caelric
11-13-2013, 09:03 AM
I play a THW sorc in Plat. More or less the same build, although I tried to stick to as much CM as possible. at 11+ mill xp, fully 1x in CM, 1x in armor (I wear brig, with an enhancive for 110 armor ranks).

Couple of big differences: max out bonus from 425, so 75 ranks of minor ele.

48 ranks of spirit summoning lore (20 ranks gives web bolt, and the extra ranks increase the web chance) Web bolt is primary disabling spell for me.

48 ranks of air lore. Why? Well, for a wizard, 24 ranks is what gives an extra second bonus RT from haste, and 48 ranks is what is required for a non wizard. Stock up on haste imbeds, and I swing my greatsword at 2 second RT. Side note: spent 10 million silver on haste edibles at EG.

Couple of other differences, but mostly the same. 2x arcane symbols and MIU for maximum duration from scrolls and imbeds (can get three hunts from a single scroll cast/item use)

Whirlin
11-13-2013, 09:45 AM
I am considered a fixstat that would shift 20 sorc spells to MnE and get approx +7 STR bonus, which would get me to 428. I could also drop spell aim entirely and pick up another ~+21 AS worth of CM.

My skills rationales
Combat Maneuvers, 34 ranks
Feint is great, and I have a rank of disarm and cdefense, too. The extra +17 AS is a big deal. I'm going to push this more than 1x/level until cap. I may also drop other skills to move this up. I understand this gives me a bit better creature maneuver defense, too. I'll take it.

Multi Opponent Combat, 5 ranks
If I ever switch back to full pure, I think I'll keep the 5 ranks MoC. It's nice for 111, 713, and 720, and it negates half a critter worth of FoF. Two-target MSTRIKE is somewhat useful with the naginata (6 seconds) but not so much on the lance (10 seconds).

I would drop MoC... it's VERY expensive for the benefits. Plus, with 708 or 709, you can keep a room full of (most) critters pretty well disabled. At 15/10 cost MoC is one of those skills I recommend obtaining a few ranks through enhancives, rather than training points.

From a straight DS perspective, that 75/50 TP cost could be about 3 spell ranks. So while the Fof will offset 5 DS loss (going off memory that FoF is -10 DS per additional foe), if you were to put those 3 spell ranks into MnS, that would net you +3 DS against 1 foe, 2 foes, green foes, blue foes. And some TD... and probably some other stuff.



Magic Item Use, 111 ranks
I don't unlock as often as I infuse, and this doesn't affect scroll durations, so I haven't pushed this as far. Stopping here.

You still have a lot of potential with spell research and Cman to further increase your AS. If you don't find yourself using MIU that often, you should consider at least dropping it to 1x, if not .5x or 0. You can also drop this down to 0, and keep AS up to 2x, and have a net positive points.



Spell Aiming, 170 ranks
Primarily shows its worth with 720, and secondarily with 708 aim, though I do bolt on occasion. Bolting has synergy with this build in that I'm already focused on dropping DS a lot, though I can't invoke 513 if I'm going to swing, too.

If you're using it predominantly for 708 and 720, I believe you can drop it down to 1x and still find them effective.



Harness Power, 83 ranks
I'm actually considering dropping this just a little but I don't think I'll pull the trigger.

Ehh, it's so cheap, for so much. Hell, you could take MnS a bit further and use it to keep WoF up if you're really not using mana!




Climbing, 20 ranks
I'll bump this when I went to go to plane 5. In the mean time I could consider dropping it altogether.

Swimming, 37 ranks
I might drop this once I'm out of the bowels. I can seek/return in and out of the rift and Nelemar.

These seem a bit low, I typically recommend 50/50 to reach everywhere, but if you can voln around it, that's awesome.



First Aid, 20 ranks
I could drop this, but when I was at 0 right after fixskilling, I really missed being able to tend anything.
Trading, 8 ranks
I could also drop this, but it's pretty cheap for a 5% trading bonus.

If you were a full 1x CMAN, and 75 ranks in MnE, I'd say have fun and pick them up... but going with such a strange build really doesn't lead to extra TP to put into fun skills.



Perception, 0 ranks
Can anyone tell me why I care about this? I know it matters for bandits, but I don't think it helps me with hunting, except as a tertiary skill for avoiding creature maneuvers.

Any maneuver that doesn't show a roll is impacted by perception. Perception provides equal defense per rank to CMAN training, but it substantially cheaper TP wise.



Minor Elemental, 45 ranks
If I fixskill again, it'll be to drop 20 sorc spells for 20 of these (or drop spell aim for CM). That's 10 swinging AS and 10 DS at a cost of 3.4 CS.

This will also net a DS increase from 430, whereas the 712 bonus caps at level.



Minor Spiritual, 20 ranks
My spirit CS is absolutely useless. Web would be nice, but I can dealt without it. Even with the TD pushdown it's not hitting anything. I slightly miss 125, and I don't miss 130 at all (symbol of return). I've never had 140. It would be nice in the rift.

If you're not readily using a lot of MP, 140 is a nice alternative to scroll-tanking. Additionally, MnS is the best spell circle to train in for straight TD/DS gains per spell rank.

caelric
11-13-2013, 10:42 AM
If you're not readily using a lot of MP, 140 is a nice alternative to scroll-tanking. Additionally, MnS is the best spell circle to train in for straight TD/DS gains per spell rank.

Keep in mind that he is probably not running 102, and thus misses out on some of the benefits of MnS.

Agree with you on perception; 1x that if at all possible.

Addendum on MnE: the more ranks in the 400s you have, the better your 435 works, and 435 is an awesome disabler. I would get MnE to 75 ranks asap, even at the expense of dropping sorc base down to level.

Also, as you have noticed, the wepon you use makes a big difference. See if you can pick up a perfect lance, and get it enchanted to 7x. The perfect forged will make a substantial difference. I wield a perfect forged, 7x, HCW, T5 ensorcelled blink greatsword....

Whirlin
11-13-2013, 11:02 AM
Keep in mind that he is probably not running 102, and thus misses out on some of the benefits of MnS.
You're right. Last time I looked at the bonuses, it was with 102 in mind...
Sorc nets +1 DS per rank up to level.
MnE nets +.5 (430) up to level
MnS nets +.5 (120) and +.5 (102) per level... but since 102 is out... MnE wins.

[QUOTE=caelric;1609295]
Addendum on MnE: the more ranks in the 400s you have, the better your 435 works, and 435 is an awesome disabler. I would get MnE to 75 ranks asap, even at the expense of dropping sorc base down to level.

Also, as you have noticed, the wepon you use makes a big difference. See if you can pick up a perfect lance, and get it enchanted to 7x. The perfect forged will make a substantial difference. I wield a perfect forged, 7x, HCW, T5 ensorcelled blink greatsword....
I agree on reducing Sorc to base level. That would net a nice +10 AS/DS, at the expense of maybe 7 CS (I'm not mathing at the moment)

435 is an amazing disabler. I completely agree... However, I think the benefit is overstated when comparing it to an adequately lored 708 or the multi-hit duration of a 709. Especially if you also consider that you have other potential mana drains of damage/defense in 117 and 140.... Tons of ways for the build to use it; Mana should never really go unused.

On Weapons: The 7x perfect lance will outperform Nagintas as long as your endrolls are over 130 or so, pre-AvD bonus. The endrolls just don't compensate for the lower DF.

To further preach the MnE thing though... Your priorities should be maxing out CMAN, and getting MnE to 75 ranks. There's no real reason to want to stick to 2x spell research. Even at the 0/32 cost of the third rank, given the short list of things that will directly increase AS/DS, it's still a viable option. From my own simulations, ranged warmages can start spending discretionary points on a third rank of spells starting around level 60 or so.

Goat
11-14-2013, 02:18 AM
I play a THW sorc in Plat. More or less the same build, although I tried to stick to as much CM as possible. at 11+ mill xp, fully 1x in CM, 1x in armor (I wear brig, with an enhancive for 110 armor ranks).

I've seen a few posts about Taakhooshi (sp?) over time, was helpful for seeing that someone else has made it work. Thanks for your responses. Seems like you've going a fair bit further with swinging than I am. I'd like to do brig some day, but I can't do it in stages without giving up a bunch of enhancives (greaves, aventails, helm). I also like my current armor - 4x HCP fusion.


Couple of big differences: max out bonus from 425, so 75 ranks of minor ele.

I'll definitely do more with MnE if I fixskill again, but I don't think I want it above 2/3 level. That would be 55 at 84.



48 ranks of spirit summoning lore (20 ranks gives web bolt, and the extra ranks increase the web chance) Web bolt is primary disabling spell for me.

48 ranks of air lore. Why? Well, for a wizard, 24 ranks is what gives an extra second bonus RT from haste, and 48 ranks is what is required for a non wizard. Stock up on haste imbeds, and I swing my greatsword at 2 second RT. Side note: spent 10 million silver on haste edibles at EG.


I imagine that makes a huge difference. I've wanted to not be quite so dependent on a spell that lasts a minute. Right now I invoke a haste scroll once or twice a hunt.


Couple of other differences, but mostly the same. 2x arcane symbols and MIU for maximum duration from scrolls and imbeds (can get three hunts from a single scroll cast/item use)
[/QUOTE]
I'm super heavy on scroll use, and no imbeds, so I'm happy with more AS and less MIU.

Goat
11-14-2013, 02:56 AM
Thanks for your thoughts. I could definitely tweak this a few ways, per your suggestions.


I would drop MoC... it's VERY expensive for the benefits. Plus, with 708 or 709, you can keep a room full of (most) critters pretty well disabled. At 15/10 cost MoC is one of those skills I recommend obtaining a few ranks through enhancives, rather than training points.

From a straight DS perspective, that 75/50 TP cost could be about 3 spell ranks. So while the Fof will offset 5 DS loss (going off memory that FoF is -10 DS per additional foe), if you were to put those 3 spell ranks into MnS, that would net you +3 DS against 1 foe, 2 foes, green foes, blue foes. And some TD... and probably some other stuff.

I hadn't seen the -10 DS per foe thing, but it's more substantial when you're not in offensive yet - 25% stance pushdown according to KP. That does still matter to me. 708/709 can disable a lot, but I think they still count against my for FoF when the one not-yet-disabled one swings at me.



You still have a lot of potential with spell research and Cman to further increase your AS. If you don't find yourself using MIU that often, you should consider at least dropping it to 1x, if not .5x or 0. You can also drop this down to 0, and keep AS up to 2x, and have a net positive points.

MIU is still very important to me for unlocking scrolls. It's just that I unlock a spell once and may infuse it 15 times, so I'll throw the points at what helps infusion. I could just pay Allereli to unlock my scrolls, I suppose, but she's not always around or in my city. I'm also spellburst-sensitive, and dropping MIU would cost me a nice spell.



If you're using it predominantly for 708 and 720, I believe you can drop it down to 1x and still find them effective.

"Around 2x Spell Aiming is expected, to produce the instant vaporization crit reliably versus like-leveled targets." -- KP article on 720
This jives with what I remember from GM posts when focused 720 and focused 710 were released.
"2x Spell Aiming is required to cast the targeted version of this spell against a like-leveled target without a penalty to the sorcerer’s CS." -- KP article on 708



Ehh, it's so cheap, for so much. Hell, you could take MnS a bit further and use it to keep WoF up if you're really not using mana!

I could get by with less, but probably won't. I really don't see MnS past 120 as an option for now, probably until cap.



These seem a bit low, I typically recommend 50/50 to reach everywhere, but if you can voln around it, that's awesome.

Yeah, I realize that. I'll bump em as needed.



If you were a full 1x CMAN, and 75 ranks in MnE, I'd say have fun and pick them up... but going with such a strange build really doesn't lead to extra TP to put into fun skills.

20 ranks FA and 8 ranks trading at 4.5 ranks CM - +2.25 AS. Worth considering next time around, but I don't think it's really pressing.



Any maneuver that doesn't show a roll is impacted by perception. Perception provides equal defense per rank to CMAN training, but it substantially cheaper TP wise.

"Physical Fitness > Combat Maneuvers >= Perception" Coase post saved at http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Creature_maneuver_(saved_post)
So perception is not always equal to CM, and we don't know how often it is or isn't. Still, point taken.

Goat
11-14-2013, 03:00 AM
Addendum on MnE: the more ranks in the 400s you have, the better your 435 works, and 435 is an awesome disabler. I would get MnE to 75 ranks asap, even at the expense of dropping sorc base down to level.
I'll bump it, but probably not past 2/3 level; I don't want to give up that much CS.



Also, as you have noticed, the wepon you use makes a big difference. See if you can pick up a perfect lance, and get it enchanted to 7x. The perfect forged will make a substantial difference. I wield a perfect forged, 7x, HCW, T5 ensorcelled blink greatsword....
Yeah, I'm definitely leaning toward lance instead of naginata, though mstriking sorcerer is high on the lulz count, and there's not much point with a lance. I'm just not really looking forward to selling both and then not having a decent weapon while I look for something to buy with the proceeds. I'm also considering selling the 4x / t5 / 6x acuity runestaff for something more basic, but ... I like it.

Goat
11-16-2013, 02:53 AM
I have now cast with 500 CS, bolted with 500 AS, and swung with 500 AS, all 16 levels before cap. I can't sustain that in any of those cases, but I've cross the threshold on each.

I win!

caelric
11-25-2013, 11:04 PM
In a (almost) complete waste of TPs, I fixskilled into 200 ranks of air lore, and now swing my greatsword with 1 second RT while hasted, which is really fun.