"I'm sorry" yeah right

[~Rocktar~]

And the lying bastard says he is sorry while couching it in a load of bullshit.

http://youtu.be/DjwudZqo-Bg

Yeah, better plans, now I have to pay for maternity care and women's health care. I am a fat old white guy with no dependants any longer and no one else on my health insurance. I appreciate the pay cut so welfare cunts can pop out more babies for me to feed.

[tyrant-201]

I don't know what he's apologizing for. I think the ACA is a big success so far. Boy do those Republicants who tried to defund it look stupid.

[Tgo01]

Holy shit, that's an apology? That was the most forced and round about apology I think I have ever seen.

"I regret very much that we weren't as clear as we needed to be."

Uh?

[Warriorbird]

I totally expect both of you to be moved by and believe everything the President says.

[Tgo01]

I totally expect both of you to be moved by and believe everything the President says.

Mark your calenders folks, a post by WB in the politics folder that doesn't mention Republicans or Ayn Rand.

[tyrant-201]

I'm as liberal as the next person. But really? Lie after lie, wiretapping american citizens and allies, continuation of war (in both Iraq and Afghanistan. What? You believe the Iraq War is over? *cough* contractors *cough*) and Gitmo. You all need to stop being retarded and realize our system of government isn't built on competition. People pull the strings at the top. Fair government stopped with the initialization of a national bank and the federal reserve.

[Warriorbird]

I'm as liberal as the next person. But really? Lie after lie, wiretapping american citizens and allies, continuation of war (in both Iraq and Afghanistan. What? You believe the Iraq War is over? *cough* contractors *cough*) and Gitmo. You all need to stop being retarded and realize our system of government isn't built on competition. People pull the strings at the top. Fair government stopped with the initialization of a national bank and the federal reserve.

As did regular financial panics and a completely unstable currency.

[tyrant-201]

As did regular financial panics and a completely unstable currency.

Ah, so you're for a private central bank regulating currency of the richest nation in the world. Loaning money to the government with interest, nothing backing the currency but the faith the American people have that it's worth more than the paper and ink used to make it? We've had plenty of financial panics and downturn since then, and the value of the dollar has steadily decreased.

[Warriorbird]

Ah, so you're for a private central bank regulating currency of the richest nation in the world. Loaning money to the government with interest, nothing backing the currency but the faith the American people have that it's worth more than the paper and ink used to make it? We've had plenty of financial panics and downturn since then, and the value of the dollar has steadily decreased.

I like us actually having a monetary policy. I'd also compare two serious downturns with what, nine before? Let's regulate the economy even less because that'll work out well? No.

[tyrant-201]

I like us actually having a monetary policy. I'd also compare two serious downturns with what, nine before? Let's regulate the economy even less because that'll work out well? No.

Not sure what sort of standards you're applying for a downturn. People had a lot less of an understanding of economics before the 1910's as well. You're being apologetic of a private bank running the US monetary policy. Not sure how that fits in with a liberal ideal, but okay.

Who says you can't regulate monetary policy without a board of rich dudes calling the shots? I'm sure they're all acting in our best interest at all times.

[Bobmuhthol]

Why the fuck do you keep calling the Federal Reserve a private bank? I'm fucking tired of listening to stupid shit from people who know fuck all about banking about how they have it all figured out.

[Bobmuhthol]

Probably my favorite argument of all time, and thank you very much for using it, is "the value of the dollar has decreased." Do you think the value of the dollar should go up over time? Does that seriously make any sense to you? We should all lock our dollars in safes because if we spend any money we are giving up the larger value later? That's an incredibly good idea. While you're at it, be sure to never take out a mortgage on your house, because the money you have to pay in the future will be worth more than the same dollar amount today, you fucking idiot.

[tyrant-201]

Why the fuck do you keep calling the Federal Reserve a private bank? I'm fucking tired of listening to stupid shit from people who know fuck all about banking about how they have it all figured out.

Uh-huh. I know nothing about it. Nothing at all. If you want to believe the Fed is a completely transparent public entity, good on you. News for you though - the Chairman doesn't call the shots. Fucking moron.

Of course the value of the dollar will never stay the same. Cost of living has sky-rocketed, and mortgage costs are far less affordable on a normal job. Keep eating the shit you've been fed, because you've seemed to buy into practically everything the system wants you to.

[Methais]

I don't know what he's apologizing for. I think the ACA is a big success so far. Boy do those Republicants who tried to defund it look stupid.

Yeah, those 6 people that got enrolled on day 1 are a clear representation of what a success it is.


Holy shit, that's an apology? That was the most forced and round about apology I think I have ever seen.

"I regret very much that we weren't as clear as we needed to be."

Uh?

But how many times did he say NOW LET ME BE CLEAR when he was trying to sell Obamacare?

[tyrant-201]

Yeah, those 6 people that got enrolled on day 1 are a clear representation on what a success it is.



But how many times did he say NOW LET ME BE CLEAR when he was trying to sell Obamacare?

I'll have you know it was 7 people.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm as liberal as the next person. But really? Lie after lie, wiretapping american citizens and allies, continuation of war (in both Iraq and Afghanistan. What? You believe the Iraq War is over? *cough* contractors *cough*) and Gitmo. You all need to stop being retarded and realize our system of government isn't built on competition. People pull the strings at the top. Fair government stopped with the initialization of a national bank and the federal reserve.Fair government stopped in 1791?
Of course the value of the dollar will never stay the same. Cost of living has sky-rocketed, and mortgage costs are far less affordable on a normal job. Keep eating the shit you've been fed, because you've seemed to buy into practically everything the system wants you to.Nominal cost of living certainly has, but shall we graph it divided by wages? We shall!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/johnnyoldschool/CPIoverMinWage_zpsb00e9224.png

CPI - http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm#.UNuMXXeDmSo
Min wage - http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm#.UNuMXXeDmSo

CPI is about 24 times higher, but min wage is 29 times higher, so it has outstripped inflation and people are ahead of where they were in 1938 (the first year of federal minimum wage). An easy way to think about it is that the dollar is worth less, but the hour of work is worth more. You can perform the same operation for average wage, median wage, versions of household income, etc., if you like. Let us know if they return any interesting results! :)

[cwolff]

I used to be anti-federal reserve until I started thinking about who would then be responsible for printing our money. I believe it'd be congress and if that's not a scary proposition I don't know what is. Better to have it in the hands of the Fed Reserve than let our treasury flop around with whichever political wind happens to be blowing.

[Jarvan]

I used to be anti-federal reserve until I started thinking about who would then be responsible for printing our money. I believe it'd be congress and if that's not a scary proposition I don't know what is. Better to have it in the hands of the Fed Reserve than let our treasury flop around with whichever political wind happens to be blowing.

Yeah, instead it's whatever political wind happens to be blowing when it is time to nominate the leader of the Fed. Altho it seems like they all have the same strategy... print print print.

[Bobmuhthol]

Ah, so you're for a private central bank regulating currency of the richest nation in the world. Loaning money to the government with interest, nothing backing the currency but the faith the American people have that it's worth more than the paper and ink used to make it? We've had plenty of financial panics and downturn since then, and the value of the dollar has steadily decreased.I like that you think I'm somehow brainwashed (and not the other way around), yet you claim the Fed is loaning money to the government "with interest." Here are two reasons why you're wrong: the Fed does not loan money to the government, and all of the Fed's profits go directly to the Department of the Treasury.

[~Rocktar~]

Holy shit, that's an apology? That was the most forced and round about apology I think I have ever seen.

"I regret very much that we weren't as clear as we needed to be."

Uh?

Yep, it's worse than "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Hope and change at it's best. OH, and on first look, without the pricing available, my insurance next year goes up, my coverage goes down and I end up with less options than before. ACA helps me how?

Lastly, what's with the Escher-esque/whatever animated gifs in rep these days, too lazy to type your stupidity out? I know you are too weak to sign it.

[Thondalar]

Fair government stopped in 1791?Nominal cost of living certainly has, but shall we graph it divided by wages? We shall!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/johnnyoldschool/CPIoverMinWage_zpsb00e9224.png

CPI - http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm#.UNuMXXeDmSo
Min wage - http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm#.UNuMXXeDmSo

CPI is about 24 times higher, but min wage is 29 times higher, so it has outstripped inflation and people are ahead of where they were in 1938 (the first year of federal minimum wage). An easy way to think about it is that the dollar is worth less, but the hour of work is worth more. You can perform the same operation for average wage, median wage, versions of household income, etc., if you like. Let us know if they return any interesting results! :)

Err...according to some other thread, minimum wage is way short of inflation, which is why they want to raise it to $10.10/hour...which is it?

[Wrathbringer]

Uh-huh. I know nothing about it. Nothing at all. If you want to believe the Fed is a completely transparent public entity, good on you. News for you though - the Chairman doesn't call the shots. Fucking moron.

Of course the value of the dollar will never stay the same. Cost of living has sky-rocketed, and mortgage costs are far less affordable on a normal job. Keep eating the shit you've been fed, because you've seemed to buy into practically everything the system wants you to.

Yeah, he really does.

[Wrathbringer]

Why the fuck do you keep calling the Federal Reserve a private bank? I'm fucking tired of listening to stupid shit from people who know fuck all about banking about how they have it all figured out.

Feel free to leave at any time.

[Candor]

Why the fuck do you keep calling the Federal Reserve a private bank? I'm fucking tired of listening to stupid shit from people who know fuck all about banking about how they have it all figured out.

I know that the Federal Reserve is not a private bank. But I am still going to call it that, just to piss off people like you.

[Warriorbird]

I'm not exactly sure what a tax dodger and conspiracy theorist have to teach somebody with a graduate degree in economics but I'm dying to find out.

[Wrathbringer]

I prefer the title, "tax bane" please.

[Candor]

I'm not exactly sure what a tax dodger and conspiracy theorist have to teach somebody with a graduate degree in economics but I'm dying to find out.

Well let's see if I can summarize:

The Fed is printing money out of thin air backed by nothing (what do you think gold is for anyway), so we are heading for financial collapse any second now.

Since banks can't refund 100% of their deposits at the snap of a finger, we are heading for financial collapse any second now.

The leaders of the CFR want to rule the world and take away your basic civil and human rights.

I think that covers most of the basics...uh right Bob?

There will be a test tomorrow. Leave your brain at home, you are not allowed to take unfair advantage of it against people with brains which do not work as well.

[Warriorbird]

You forgot "BUY GOLD!11!!!!!"

[Candor]

You forgot "BUY GOLD!11!!!!!"

Blast...I knew I would forget something...

[Bobmuhthol]

Since banks can't refund 100% of their deposits at the snap of a finger, we are heading for financial collapse any second now.What are you talking about? If the Fed is printing money, why wouldn't banks be able to cover their liabilities? They have more money, not less...?

[Wrathbringer]

Well let's see if I can summarize:

The Fed is printing money out of thin air backed by nothing (what do you think gold is for anyway), so we are heading for financial collapse any second now.

Since banks can't refund 100% of their deposits at the snap of a finger, we are heading for financial collapse any second now.

The leaders of the CFR want to rule the world and take away your basic civil and human rights.

I think that covers most of the basics...uh right Bob?

There will be a test tomorrow. Leave your brain at home, you are not allowed to take unfair advantage of it against people with brains which do not work as well.

It only takes a simple google search to find out the average lifespan of fiat currency. After that, it's only common sense to realize that things with a lifespan eventually die. It apparently takes a lot of book learnin' to convince ones self otherwise.

[Bobmuhthol]

So dumb.

[Wrathbringer]

So dumb.

That's all ya got, Mr. Masters? Tell us again why America's fiat currency will last forever?

[Bobmuhthol]

Tell me again why it won't.

[cwolff]

It only takes a simple google search to find out the average lifespan of fiat currency. After that, it's only common sense to realize that things with a lifespan eventually die. It apparently takes a lot of book learnin' to convince ones self otherwise.

Ok, I googled fiat currency like you said. The first two entries that came up were definintions, the third was from the daily reckoning and supports what you said but the fourth entry caught my eye. It's from Forbes. The author is saying that all currency is fiat currency since the value is based on an agreement of what the underlying asset is worth.


In both cases, what makes Tide detergent, or cigarettes, or the US dollar, or Bitcoin, or whatever, a currency, is simply common agreement that these an item of currency is valuable. What makes it possible to buy drugs with Tide is not because Tide is useful as a detergent. It’s because drug dealers and users have agreed that it is currency.

This is, of course, equally true of gold. Gold’s uses in industry are marginal to its appeal. What makes gold valuable is that we’ve all agreed since time immemorial that it’s valuable.

Switching to a gold-backed currency regime does not mean switching away from fiat currency, it means switching to a fiat currency system where the money supply is linked to a commodity.

[Wrathbringer]

Ok, I googled fiat currency like you said. The first two entries that came up were definintions, the third was from the daily reckoning and supports what you said but the fourth entry caught my eye. It's from Forbes. The author is saying that all currency is fiat currency since the value is based on an agreement of what the underlying asset is worth.

What was the lifespan they gave?

Edit: Ah, I see it from Forbes there. "The “average life expectancy for a fiat currency is twenty-seven years; so, by that measure, the greenback has had a good run.”

[Wrathbringer]

Tell me again why it won't.

I wouldn't begin to presume to tell you about economics, Bob.

[cwolff]

What was the lifespan they gave?

The lifespan is as long as the underlying asset is considered to be of value. Whether it's the full faith and credit of the USA or a piece of gold; it's only valuable as long as people agree it has value.

[Bobmuhthol]

Currencies are not random variables. They are not car engines. They are not lightbulbs. They do not have some lifespan dictated by a particular distribution. You are retarded.

[Wrathbringer]

Currencies are not random variables. They are not car engines. They are not lightbulbs. They do not have some lifespan dictated by a particular distribution. You are retarded.

The “average life expectancy for a fiat currency is twenty-seven years; so, by that measure, the greenback has had a good run.” -Forbes

Explain that then, Bob.

Edit: Any answer besides "Forbes is retarded" will be inconsistent with your recent posts, obviously.

[Bobmuhthol]

There is no basis in fact for that statement. Explained.

It's like saying the average life expectancy of a lightbulb is X years, so this LED bulb that has been running for 6 years is absolutely incredible, ignoring the fact that LED bulbs obviously last longer than the universe of all lightbulbs.

[Wrathbringer]

There is no basis in fact for that statement. Explained.

Source? Please don't use yourself.

[Bobmuhthol]

Source? Please don't use yourself.I can't give you a source that says that statement is wrong any more than I can prove the nonexistence of a god...

[Wrathbringer]

I can't give you a source that says that statement is wrong any more than I can prove the nonexistence of a god...

So your economic views are based on blind faith in fiat currency. That accurate?

[Bobmuhthol]

No that's obviously fucking not accurate.

[Wrathbringer]

No that's obviously fucking not accurate.

? Ooookaaay. Knew I'd regret this, but I was bored. Anyway. Appreciate the responses.

[Atlanteax]

I totally expect both of you to be moved by and believe everything the President says.

Stop using other people's comments, Rand Paul.

[Atlanteax]

That's all ya got, Mr. Masters? Tell us again why America's fiat currency will last forever?

The U.S dollar will 'last forever' because there is no other currency that could conceivably replace it as the international reserve currency.

Euro = was the European elites' ambitions, but will certainly not happen with Europe going thru a great recession
Yen = this was in consideration when 20 years ago it was "zomg, Japan is going to take over the world economically" ... their 'Lost Decade' continues
Chinese Yuan = also no-go ... China is staring down a huge financial crisis that will make the U.S./Europe one seem like child's play, people who thought highly of the Yuan will ultimately be mocked, meanwhile, China continues to stash their cash in the safest place they know where to put it... U.S. Treasuries.

[Latrinsorm]

Err...according to some other thread, minimum wage is way short of inflation, which is why they want to raise it to $10.10/hour...which is it?I can't speak for some unnamed person in some other thread.

With that being said, the last specific comments I remember are my saying that indexing it to inflation is a good idea, which doesn't imply that there is a problem now. If you'll return your attention to my graph, you will notice many discontinuities, and it's plausible that eliminating those would eliminate shocks to the system, which are always more dangerous than steady change. Another reason is that it removes the politics from the issue: no more need to vote on bills, the wage is increased or decreased automatically. The article ClydeR linked to cites decency and income inequality as motivations, but mentions nothing about the real minimum wage.
It only takes a simple google search to find out the average lifespan of fiat currency. After that, it's only common sense to realize that things with a lifespan eventually die. It apparently takes a lot of book learnin' to convince ones self otherwise.Then again, a lot has changed since the earliest fiat currencies: the industrial revolution, the emergence of global superpowers, and the modern science of economics, to name three.

Consider that the Weimar Republic had 1,000,000x inflation in 4 months, while the United States has had 22.7x in the 100 years since the creation of the Federal Reserve, or less than one ten-millionth the rate of inflation. With this in mind, surely it would be silly to compare the Weimar fiat currency to ours. We might as well compare the Roman standing army to ours and live in terror of rebellions, mutinies, military coups.

[Wrathbringer]

I can't speak for some unnamed person in some other thread.

With that being said, the last specific comments I remember are my saying that indexing it to inflation is a good idea, which doesn't imply that there is a problem now. If you'll return your attention to my graph, you will notice many discontinuities, and it's plausible that eliminating those would eliminate shocks to the system, which are always more dangerous than steady change. Another reason is that it removes the politics from the issue: no more need to vote on bills, the wage is increased or decreased automatically. The article ClydeR linked to cites decency and income inequality as motivations, but mentions nothing about the real minimum wage.Then again, a lot has changed since the earliest fiat currencies: the industrial revolution, the emergence of global superpowers, and the modern science of economics, to name three.

Consider that the Weimar Republic had 1,000,000x inflation in 4 months, while the United States has had 22.7x in the 100 years since the creation of the Federal Reserve, or less than one ten-millionth the rate of inflation. With this in mind, surely it would be silly to compare the Weimar fiat currency to ours. We might as well compare the Roman standing army to ours and live in terror of rebellions, mutinies, military coups.

Ah, the "but we'll be different this time! There's never been anyone like us!" argument. Not compelling. The "but we're the reserve currency!" argument is more compelling, but assumes the dollar will never fall out of favor or a new currency will never prove more desirable. There are signs to look for when a fiat currency is near to running it's course. The idea that the Fed can prevent/control these symptoms in perpetuity is laughable, imo.

[Latrinsorm]

Ah, the "but we'll be different this time! There's never been anyone like us!" argument. Not compelling.I can't compel you to do anything, only the power of Christ can do that. With that said, I hope you can see how a person with a mathematical mind looks at someone equating 1 to .0000001 and finds it questionable.
There are signs to look for when a fiat currency is near to running it's course.Such as?

[Wrathbringer]

I can't compel you to do anything, only the power of Christ can do that. With that said, I hope you can see how a person with a mathematical mind looks at someone equating 1 to .0000001 and finds it questionable.Such as?

I do, but you chose that example to make your point. All I get from that is, "hey could be worse. Relax, guy, you need a rest. Look over there." Google can show you the signs of fiat money decline.

[Atlanteax]

.Such as?

He cannot come up with any, he is talking out of his arse.

[Latrinsorm]

I do, but you chose that example to make your point. All I get from that is, "hey could be worse. Relax, guy, you need a rest. Look over there."Well, given that you hadn't volunteered any examples, I had to pick one from the various googled results. It was the Roman denarius, Chinese bank notes from 1000, or the Weimar mark. The point is not "could be worse", the point is that a little inflation does not cause a little bit of the catastrophes of hyperinflation, in the same way that drinking a glass of water does not cause a little bit of drowning.
Google can show you the signs of fiat money decline.Again, most of what I find refers strictly to hyperinflation. There's an easy solution to hyperinflation: don't do it. We've never had a year of >20% inflation in the Fed era, we haven't gone above 10 since 1981, why should we believe we'll suddenly have ten times that now? I see people making vague claims about "acceleration" with no empirical backing whatsoever, which as a physicist makes me want to cry. Can these people not take derivatives?

I also see a lot of Nostradamus style predictions, which is to say "at some unspecified point disaster will occur". Nixon is blamed for the inflation of the early 80s, why did that take 10 years? Inflation hadn't been above 5% in the United States since 1991, how did inflation cause the Great Recession? Without a concrete time frame, you can attribute causation to literally anything in the past.

If gold (et al) is the answer, why did we have much more violent shifts in inflation before Nixon than after? (That is, a standard deviation of .060 compared to .031.) Could it be that the supply of gold, while finite, is not fixed? Would it interest you to learn that the supply of gold has increased seven-fold (http://www.numbersleuth.org/worlds-gold/) since 1900? This is less of an increase than 25-fold, yes, but it's not zero, and shows no signs of slowing. If we're going to have a variable currency anyway, why not have one we can control?

[Wrathbringer]

Well, given that you hadn't volunteered any examples, I had to pick one from the various googled results. It was the Roman denarius, Chinese bank notes from 1000, or the Weimar mark. The point is not "could be worse", the point is that a little inflation does not cause a little bit of the catastrophes of hyperinflation, in the same way that drinking a glass of water does not cause a little bit of drowning.Again, most of what I find refers strictly to hyperinflation. There's an easy solution to hyperinflation: don't do it. We've never had a year of >20% inflation in the Fed era, we haven't gone above 10 since 1981, why should we believe we'll suddenly have ten times that now? I see people making vague claims about "acceleration" with no empirical backing whatsoever, which as a physicist makes me want to cry. Can these people not take derivatives?

I also see a lot of Nostradamus style predictions, which is to say "at some unspecified point disaster will occur". Nixon is blamed for the inflation of the early 80s, why did that take 10 years? Inflation hadn't been above 5% in the United States since 1991, how did inflation cause the Great Recession? Without a concrete time frame, you can attribute causation to literally anything in the past.

If gold (et al) is the answer, why did we have much more violent shifts in inflation before Nixon than after? (That is, a standard deviation of .060 compared to .031.) Could it be that the supply of gold, while finite, is not fixed? Would it interest you to learn that the supply of gold has increased seven-fold (http://www.numbersleuth.org/worlds-gold/) since 1900? This is less of an increase than 25-fold, yes, but it's not zero, and shows no signs of slowing. If we're going to have a variable currency anyway, why not have one we can control?

Understood. Thanks for the perspective. Pretty sure that if the solution to hyper inflation were as controllable as you say, no one would do it. Solution for auto deaths: don't wreck.

[Latrinsorm]

Not everyone can be as great as us. USA! USA! USA!

[Candor]

Not everyone can be as great as us. USA! USA! USA!

Darnit Latrinsorm, it really bothers me when you say something I agree with 100%. Stop that.