Theory on Necromancy Lore bonus for Ensorcell

[wandererjs]

All,

With EG now behind us, I want to post this and get feedback before I get distracted by the next holiday, term paper, family, or project. Feedback for and against the theory as welcome, as long as it's accurate and constructive.

For the TL;DR crew:

Energy gathering for ensorcell is based on a scale like Grimswarm prestige, where a like-level kill gives 50 energy, adjusted at +/- 5 per level difference. Necromancy lore adds a flat bonus to this, somewhat like a level bonus. At 15, 55, and 120 ranks of Necro lore, there is a bonus of +5, +10, and +15, essentially the same as a level bump of +1, +2, and +3 respectively.

[Update: Theory #2: Necromancy lore adds a flat bonus to this at bonus x2. At 15, 55, and 120 ranks of Necro lore, this is a bonus of +10 (+5x2), +20 (10x2), and +30 (15x2), essentially the same as level bumps of +2, +4, +6 respectively]

This theory is based on details of Coase's posts:


=== Coase #1507 4/2
This energy can be stored indefinitely, though there is both a weekly cap on the amount of necrotic energy that can be gained and an overall cap where no more can be stored. Training in Sorcerer Lore, Necromancy (Seed 1) allows for a greater amount of energy to be harvested per kill.


=== Coase #1532 4/3
If you're a sorcerer and can cast 735, then you are eligible to harvest necrotic energy. You must contribute something to the kill (generally enough to be eligible for exp) and be within the required level range to able to learn from the creature. Underhunting gets you less energy, overhunting gets you more energy. I'll leave the tiers and individual energy rewards for players to discover on their own, but it will generally take around a week of good hunting to get to tier 1, with each subsequent tier adding about half a week to the prior tier's time.


=== Coase #1736 4/8
I've fixed the issue with the ensorcell flares triggering a spellburst. While it is a spell effect, spellburst will no longer consider it.

I've double-checked the contribution of Necromancy lore to the rate of energy build up and it appears to be working correctly. The amount of bonus points from lore is capped by the base amount gained from the level vs level comparison, so a capped player will gain a lot less bonus points from slaughtering janissaries than from killing tritons (for example).


=== Coase 1756 4/9 (reply to Virilneus post, with his training of ~100 ranks of Necro lore)
It is not how the lore bonus is implemented at all, either. Only at the extreme underhunting range (up to around -7 levels or so), is the lore bonus difference particularly constrained, mostly because there is almost neglible energy being generated in the first place. In most normal like-level hunting circumstances (-5 to +5 levels), the lore bonus cap will not be applicable at all.


=== Rolfard 4/9/2013
Just hunting 2 separate weeks, one with 0 necromancy lore, one with a +8 "bonus" (36 ranks) which is ~half the 19 possible 'tier' bonus'.

My first week hunting 'felt' like 1111 kills...my second week maybe 950?


Putting the pieces together:

Post #1507 gives us the basics: necromancy lore provides an energy bonus on a seed 1 summation. We aren't told what the bonus is (additive, percentage, etc), but there is a bonus.

Post #1532 reinforces the Elanthian basics of: uphunting gives more exp/energy/stuff, underhunting gives less.

Post #1736 states that lore bonus is capped at the base energy gained from a level-by-level comparison, which tells us two things. 1) There's a cap. (Duh, but it wasn't specififed before.) 2) the bonus is additive, not percentage based. If it was percentage based, there wouldn't be a cap, as a percentage of a small number is just a much smaller number.

Post #1756 reinforces the cap, and also gives us the scale of the base amount, which then gives us the scale of the bonus. Post #1756 is a reply to post by Virilneus which included training, which at the time was about 1x for a bonus of 14-15. Coase states that at the underhunting range of -7 levels, the lore bonus is constrained because there little energy generated in the first place. Combined with the prior post, we connect the dots of lore bonus of 14/15, capped at the base energy of a -7 level kill is 15, which is also the amount of prestige generated by a -7 Grimmswarm kill.

Putting it all together:

Ensorcell energy is gathered on a scale identical to Grimmswarm, where a like levelled kill provides 50 energy, adjusted +/- 5 per level. Tagging a critter is sufficient for full credit, like Grimswarm but unlike experience. Necromancy lore adds its bonus on a seed 1 summation, with the bonus capped at the lower end to whatever the original base amount was. The cap at the lower end is stated plainly by Coase in #1736.

[Update for Theory #2: Necromancy lore bonus is doubled. Caps still apply]

There is a possible cap at the upper end, as well: Grimmswarm prestige is limited to a +10 level difference, for 100 prestige, regardless of level. Also in post #1756, Coase states "In most normal like-level hunting circumstances (-5 to +5 levels), the lore bonus cap will not be applicable at all." As he does list an upper limit, I suspect that the cap at the upper level is a max energy gain of 100, regardless of additional level or additional lore. This is difficult to test, as I'd need to hunt +10s (or higher) with a sufficient lore bonus to be noticeable if it was capped. Lore bonus also becomes less important as you uphunt, as you're getting more bonus energy from the level difference than the lore bonus.


In the following post, I will attempt format a spreadsheet into the forums as a table listing number of kills based on level and lore bonus. The numbers are holding true for basic cases (same level, minimal lore), as well as some extremes of a capped sorcerer with a +19 bonus (190 ranks), and a different sorcerer hunting +8s/+9s at a +4 bonus.

Kadishmal, player of a sorcerer too.

[wandererjs]

Lore bonus known to be capped at energy gain from creature (i.e, 100% increase from lore)
Possible cap at top end: energy not to exceed that of a +10 level kill

[[[ edit: Updated tables for updated theory at post #21 ]]]

While there are a lot of combinations to verify and I haven't done all of them, I have done tests with a few combinations:

Combo #1 is a capped sorcerer in a warcamp with +19 bonus, or max of 190 ranks. With sorcerer, bard, and paladin (myself), we cap energy at just past 600 kills. Kill count is based on number of Grimm in the warcamp, which is not a perfect count as some get killed before tagged by sorcerer, especially orcs with squishy heads. The 'just past 600' number puts us between +2 and +3, which seems reasonable for a warparty of 3. On my to-do list is to grep my logs for prestige and determine the average level of Grimm in those hunts. We checked between warcamps and were steady at progression changes at the 150/160 mark.

Combo #2 is a young sorcerer hunting +8s/+9s with an older empath. Kill count is based on # of skins. The empath is 4x'd in skinning and doesn't miss a skin, so it's again a good but not perfect counter for those that die before the sorcerer tags due to bad rolls, warcries, etc. I estimate the sorcerer tags at least 95%, probably close to 97-98%. With a +4 lore bonus, he is steady at energy milestones of 130 +/- 10, and I've pegged it within 3 skins on a few occasions.

Combo #3: There is a third combo, but I haven't hunted with them and they don't have accurate kill counts. Sorcerer is tagging +12s for energy gain, which should give close to +10 level energy gain. A weekly energy gain is done in a bit under 3 hours, which is on par with combos #1 and #2 for power killing with brief rests for mana/spirit. (No resting for xp absorption)

Combo #4: This isn't really a combo, but in my notes for Coase I had a post from Rolfard mixed in:

=== Rolfard 4/9/2013
Just hunting 2 separate weeks, one with 0 necromancy lore, one with a +8 "bonus" (36 ranks) which is ~half the 19 possible 'tier' bonus'.
My first week hunting 'felt' like 1111 kills...my second week maybe 950?

Rolfard doesn't list what he's hunting (or I didn't copy it into my notes), but those numbers are spot on for killing -1s.

Other considerations: assuming that energy is capped at level +10 (ignoring lore bonus for the moment), and using the level variance of creatures, it's difficult (impossible?) to get close to a +9 or +10 levels worth of energy without hunting actual +13s:

Consider hunting something that's +7, with a general level variance of +/- 3. The critters will actually be +4 - +10, but are grouped around, and average at +7. That's great.
Let's consider +8s, though, also with a +/-3 variance. You're killing +5 to +11s, but only getting credit for +5 to +10s; both the +11 and +10s only generate energy for a +10, so the average energy gained is below that of +8... say a 7.5. Without tracking the exact deviation of levels, it's difficult to tell, although logs from a Sunfist sorcerer could figure out out, as they do tell you the exact level (prestige) on every kill.

Standard deviations are likely TMI for most readers, but I did want to cover the potential anomalies at the top end of uphunting as something I considered in my number-crunching.

Kadishmal

Edit history:
#1: Formatted table for Kills needed by level and lore.
#2: Added datapoints from capped sorcerer at +19 and low level sorcerer hunting +8s
#3: Deleted table here, updated tables in post #21

[wandererjs]

Reserved if needed. This page intentionally left blank. (Other than it never is...)

The following table depicts the amount of energy provided by lore relative to the base gained by kill adjusted by level. There are several ways to depict this; I went from the perspective of energy from the weekly basis, as that's what we work towards.

As a result, the max percentage of lore energy from a weekly perspective is 50%. I.e, say we have a lore bonus providing +15 and kill something where the low end cap comes into play, say a -8. Base energy is 10, lore bonus is capped at 10. Total energy gained is now 20: 50% by base, 50% by lore.

Note 1: As in prior post, the numbers below *do* include the cap at the low end, clearly stated by Coase
Note 2: As in prior post, the numbers below do *not* include the possible cap at the high end of uphunting, hinted by Coase.
Note 3: This table could also be called P.E.T.A.G, or People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals and Grimswarm. I started to build this in Excel to show the percentage of fewer kills needed... until I realized the percentages were the same, even though I calculated them in two different methods.

[[edit: Updated tables now at post #21]]

Edit history:
#1: Posted table

[rolfard]

3% reduction in kill requirement per Tier on Summation 1


PRETTY CHARTS

[wandererjs]

Good to know. What time tonight? I see the 17th Anniversary event on the official calendar for 9pm Eastern, but nothing specific for you or sorcerery.

[Allereli]

Good to know. What time tonight? I see the 17th Anniversary event on the official calendar for 9pm Eastern, but nothing specific for you or sorcerery.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?86468-Twilight-Hall-17th-Anniversary-Bash-(starts-11-3)

full schedule of events

[wandererjs]

Thanks for the info. Will try to join, or review a log of it later. I'm interested to hear what Rolfard has, and if / how much it jibes for energy gathering.

Also, edits for table formatting are done.

[rolfard]

3% reduction in kill requirement per Tier on Summation 1 as tested at 7 bonus vs ONLY grimswarm and bandit likelevel. Consistantly killed under 800 for 3 weeks with tests at halfway points in addition to support hypothesis.

It may crash on the high end and I may be wrong but if i'm right that's 430 kills per week at 190 necromancy ranks or 57 percent off

[wandererjs]

It may crash on the high end and I may be wrong but if i'm right that's 430 kills per week at 190 necromancy ranks or 57 percent off

Warcamping at 190 necro ranks is consistent at about 600, I really will mine my logs to determine average level of Grimm in those warcamps, but we re-verified last night, and since Lumnis restarted for the sorcerer, we'll probably do it again today/tomorrow.

Whatever the bonus is, it can't be a pure percentage base, or there would be no cap at the low end. It has to add an absolute amount, and that amount could provide the percentages you noticed.. but it has to be an absolute bonus to align with Coase' statements.

Also... all of the numbers start with the assumption of 1000 like-level kills with zero lore. It's possible this number is a bit high.

Back to my testing at 190 necro ranks: I really need to mine my logs, as a 600 kill number is better than it should be if Grimm spawn at like level. In prior weeks, we hunted with a warparty of three. Last night, we added a fourth, and we finished up with a fifth as someone wandered into the warcamp for the last round. The spawn count definitely increases, and it would not surprise me if there's also a level bump. Another theory for a better-than-expected numbers is that there is a group bonus of some sort. I don't know how they would rationalize that in-game... but it's something I'm considering.

[Allereli]

won't group hunting mess up the count?

[wandererjs]

For warcamps, we know the number of grimm in the camp thanks to sigil location. We do have to account for any that that the sorcerer doesn't tag, as an estimate.
For our warparties, the sorcerer gets more tags (I'd say almost 100%) in trolls, while it's much less than that in orcs, as orcs have squishy heads that my paladin often one-shots, especially the enemy witches/scouges/sorcerers/sorceress.

[Allereli]

For warcamps, we know the number of grimm in the camp thanks to sigil location. We do have to account for any that that the sorcerer doesn't tag, as an estimate.
For our warparties, the sorcerer gets more tags (I'd say almost 100%) in trolls, while it's much less than that in orcs, as orcs have squishy heads that my paladin often one-shots, especially the enemy witches/scouges/sorcerers/sorceress.

Tags? don't you need complete kills for full necro power gain?

[Whirlin]

Tags? don't you need complete kills for full necro power gain?

You do gain some necro energy for critters that you would gain XP off of...

However, per my non-scientific, anecdotal work with ensorcelling, I found that my necro energy absorption did seem to be tied to XP earned. So if I only lightly 'tapped' a critter, while enough to 'gain xp', if I didn't hit it hard enough to gain 100% XP, I wouldn't get 100% of the energy? Make sense? No? Example:

I hit a war griffen with a cast of 702, with an endroll of 102 for like, 3 damage. My allpowerful wizard then 906's it into oblivion. The wizard gains 100% XP, the sorc may only gain like, 5% xp. They get something, just not a full portion of it.

There's been very little testing of true group mechanics, and requirements for 'full' xp on both parties, as Gemstone is widely a solo game, it doesn't lead to playing well with others. It's kinda a pain in the ass to test.


My anecdotal 'evidence' comes from leveling with my sorc and wiz side-by-side, while attempting to store necro energy. I found that I was much faster to store energy when soloing, rather than grouping. While I understand there are a myriad of factors, partial credit MAY be a factor, and should be removed as a variable when attempting testing to provide authoritative theories (if possible).

[rolfard]

All of my data was tracked by killcounter solo hunting using spells that were tracked 702 705 and 719(no implosion)

[wandererjs]

Tags? don't you need complete kills for full necro power gain?


Based on my testing, no. All you need is to tag it enough to gain xp. For all the combos I have tested, or have decent knowledge of:

1) a 54 empath with a 35 sorcerer. Both tag, both kill, and I get a week's worth of energy at about 530 kills at +8 to sorcerer, and zero xp to empath. Week's energy done in about 3 hours of power hunting. Sorcerer is doing respectable damage... nearly on par with the empath's bone shatter, and much more mana efficient with 702/705/701.
2) A 57 sorcerer with a... I don't know, higher wizard or a capped sorc. Sorc #1 tags with 702 (701? I'll have to ask), and wizard/sorc#2 blasts into oblivion. Week's energy done in about 3 hours of power hunting
3) The Grimmswarm warparty in my main examples with 3-4 players. If adding a fourth person divides xp, it should have taken longer, and if anything, we were faster last night: ~600 kills

Kadishmal

[Allereli]

Based on my testing, no. All you need is to tag it enough to gain xp. For all the combos I have tested, or have decent knowledge of:

1) a 54 empath with a 35 sorcerer. Both tag, both kill, and I get a week's worth of energy at about 530 kills at +8 to sorcerer, and zero xp to empath. Week's energy done in about 3 hours of power hunting. Sorcerer is doing respectable damage... nearly on par with the empath's bone shatter, and much more mana efficient with 702/705/701.
2) A 57 sorcerer with a... I don't know, higher wizard or a capped sorc. Sorc #1 tags with 702 (701? I'll have to ask), and wizard/sorc#2 blasts into oblivion. Week's energy done in about 3 hours of power hunting
3) The Grimmswarm warparty in my main examples with 3-4 players. If adding a fourth person divides xp, it should have taken longer, and if anything, we were faster last night: ~600 kills

Kadishmal

Yes, tagging it will gain xp and necro, BUT, tagging it will not get you full xp for the critter OR full necro credit to count as "1 of 1000" with no necromancy, or "1 of 700" if you're at the 10th bonus level on the summation chart.

[wandererjs]

Ok. I mined my logs from my last two sessions.

Context:
1) Results are from perspective of paladin, who is only Sunfist member. While he may not tag the exact creatures as the sorcerer, statistically he'll get an equally random sample, so still valid for determining average level
2) Warparty #1 is session with sorcerer, bard, and paladin (myself). The first few warcamps were orcs, which were often one-shotted by the paladin before the sorcerer could tag. Trolls are better for necro energy gathering as they live longer.
3) Warparty #2 is session with sorcerer, bard, paladin (myself), and another wizard (also myself). The prestige count / tag count is lower due to a) troll warcamps seem to swarm more, and AoE spells were reserved fo the casters), b)troll warcamps really swarm more... larger groups, with sorcerer/wizard tagging with major fire, and c) less active on the paladin while alt-tabbing.

With the lower kill count explained, average level is still like level at both mean and mode.

Warcamp1: 613 tags, mean: 50.3833, median: 50
warcamp2: 539 tags, mean: 50.5658, median: 50

The average level is *slightly* higher for warcamp2... this could be due to a minor level increase by the extra party member, or that the lower level ones were killed by fire crits by wizard/sorcerer, and the survivors were higher level. Regardless, the average level is still like level to the warparty, and a difference of only 0.3%

What's interesting/annoyng with the numbers is... they're too good. At high levels of lore, we're capping our weekly faster than I would expect. My theory/chart predict 725 kills, but we're doing it at a steady 600ish.

I wonder if the level adjustment is correct, but the lore bonus is actually double that. Rolfard, for your solo kills, does 782 sound like a reasonable number for +7 lore bonus? (+14 on the chart)

If I double the effectiveness, that brings a lore bonus of +19 down to 582 kills, and I don't think our warparty is quite that good... but if we apply a cap for max and reinforced by Coase's statement of:


Coase #1756 on 4/9
...In most normal like-level hunting circumstances (-5 to +5 levels), the lore bonus cap will not be applicable at all.


Coase doesn't define normal, but if we consider a +12 lore bonus as a max "normal" amount, that would allow kills in the -5 to +5 range without hitting a cap at either end. In my warparty's example of +19 bonus, and doubled to +38, that's getting capped even at +/-3 levels, and would bring an estimated kill# closer to 600.

Hmmm.

Thoughts?

[rolfard]

I'm killing and charting under 800 for tier 7 or 3x my bonus 21% discount.

My next week is 66 ranks or tier 11 with an anticipated 670 kills.

[wandererjs]

Yes, tagging it will gain xp and necro, BUT, tagging it will not get you full xp for the critter OR full necro credit to count as "1 of 1000" with no necromancy, or "1 of 700" if you're at the 10th bonus level on the summation chart.

I agree for xp, but can't agree with necro energy. My testing, as well as a friends, show full necro energy for a minor tag.

I was unable to attend Rolfard's dissertation last night, but look forward to the logs that a friend hopefully remembered to take for me. The statement '1 of 700... at the 10th bonus level.... doesn't mean anything to me without that background.

Kadishmal

[Allereli]

I agree for xp, but can't agree with necro energy. My testing, as well as a friends, show full necro energy for a minor tag.

I was unable to attend Rolfard's dissertation last night, but look forward to the logs that a friend hopefully remembered to take for me. The statement '1 of 700... at the 10th bonus level.... doesn't mean anything to me without that background.

Kadishmal


3% reduction in kill requirement per Tier on Summation 1 as tested at 7 bonus vs ONLY grimswarm and bandit likelevel. Consistantly killed under 800 for 3 weeks with tests at halfway points in addition to support hypothesis.

It may crash on the high end and I may be wrong but if i'm right that's 430 kills per week at 190 necromancy ranks or 57 percent off

Rolfard already posted his hypothesis on the simple percentage discount per bonus on the summation chart

190 ranks=19 bonus level * 3%=57% or discount of 570 kills, or total of 430 kills.

[wandererjs]

Note 1: As before, table displays cap at lower end of level
Note 2: *Unlike* before, the table now displays cap at upper end of level+lore combination. If lore effect is doubled, this brings the cap into play much quicker.
Note 3: The second chart, now officially labelled P.E.T.A.G. displays the numbers from perspective of "Fewer Kills required for weekly cap", which is the viewpoint presented by Twilight Hall. The percentages align well for like levelled kills, especially at lore bonuses 3-9.


Kills needed by Level and Lore
Take II: Doubling effectiveness of Lore

Lore bonus Level difference
-9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
0 10000 5000 3334 2500 2000 1667 1429 1250 1112 1000 910 834 770 715 667 625 589 556 527 500
1 7143 4167 2942 2273 1852 1563 1352 1191 1064 962 878 807 747 695 650 610 575 544 516 500
2 5556 3572 2632 2084 1725 1471 1283 1137 1021 926 848 782 725 676 633 596 562 532 506 500
3 5000 3125 2381 1924 1613 1389 1220 1087 981 893 820 758 705 658 618 582 550 521 500 500
4 5000 2778 2174 1786 1516 1316 1163 1042 944 863 794 736 685 642 603 569 538 511 500 500
5 5000 2500 2000 1667 1429 1250 1112 1000 910 834 770 715 667 625 589 556 527 500 500 500
6 5000 2500 1852 1563 1352 1191 1064 962 878 807 747 695 650 610 575 544 516 500 500 500
7 5000 2500 1725 1471 1283 1137 1021 926 848 782 725 676 633 596 562 532 506 500 500 500
8 5000 2500 1667 1389 1220 1087 981 893 820 758 705 658 618 582 550 521 500 500 500 500
9 5000 2500 1667 1316 1163 1042 944 863 794 736 685 642 603 569 538 511 500 500 500 500
10 5000 2500 1667 1250 1112 1000 910 834 770 715 667 625 589 556 527 500 500 500 500 500
11 5000 2500 1667 1250 1064 962 878 807 747 695 650 610 575 544 516 500 500 500 500 500
12 5000 2500 1667 1250 1021 926 848 782 725 676 633 596 562 532 506 500 500 500 500 500
13 5000 2500 1667 1250 1000 893 820 758 705 658 618 582 550 521 500 500 500 500 500 500
14 5000 2500 1667 1250 1000 863 794 736 685 642 603 569 538 511 500 500 500 500 500 500
15 5000 2500 1667 1250 1000 834 770 715 667 625 589 556 527 500 500 500 500 500 500 500
16 5000 2500 1667 1250 1000 834 747 695 650 610 575 544 516 500 500 500 500 500 500 500
17 5000 2500 1667 1250 1000 834 725 676 633 596 562 532 506 500 500 500 500 500 500 500
18 5000 2500 1667 1250 1000 834 715 658 618 582 550 521 500 500 500 500 500 500 500 500
19 5000 2500 1667 1250 1000 834 715 642 603 569 538 511 500 500 500 500 500 500 500 500


P.E.T.A.G., Take II

or, Lore bonus energy: percentage of weekly cap

Additional note: lore bonus is capped at base amount of level, for a 100% increase. When viewed from perspective of weekly cap, a worst-case (underhunting) perspective translates to 50% base energy, 50% bonus energy.

Lore -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
0 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
1 28.57% 16.66% 11.76% 9.08% 7.40% 6.24% 5.39% 4.72% 4.32% 3.80% 3.52% 3.24% 2.99% 2.80% 2.55% 2.40% 2.38% 2.16% 2.09% 0.00%
2 44.44% 28.56% 21.06% 16.64% 13.75% 11.76% 10.22% 9.04% 8.18% 7.40% 6.81% 6.24% 5.84% 5.45% 5.10% 4.64% 4.58% 4.32% 3.98% 0.00%
3 50.00% 37.50% 28.58% 23.04% 19.35% 16.68% 14.63% 13.04% 11.78% 10.70% 9.89% 9.11% 8.44% 7.97% 7.35% 6.88% 6.62% 6.29% 5.12% 0.00%
4 50.00% 44.44% 34.79% 28.56% 24.20% 21.06% 18.61% 16.64% 15.11% 13.70% 12.75% 11.75% 11.04% 10.21% 9.60% 8.96% 8.66% 8.09% 5.12% 0.00%
5 50.00% 50.00% 40.01% 33.32% 28.55% 25.01% 22.18% 20.00% 18.17% 16.60% 15.38% 14.27% 13.38% 12.59% 11.69% 11.04% 10.53% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
6 50.00% 50.00% 44.45% 37.48% 32.40% 28.55% 25.54% 23.04% 21.04% 19.30% 17.91% 16.67% 15.58% 14.69% 13.79% 12.96% 12.39% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
7 50.00% 50.00% 48.26% 41.16% 35.85% 31.79% 28.55% 25.92% 23.74% 21.80% 20.33% 18.94% 17.79% 16.64% 15.74% 14.88% 14.09% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
8 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 44.44% 39.00% 34.79% 31.35% 28.56% 26.26% 24.20% 22.53% 21.10% 19.74% 18.60% 17.54% 16.64% 15.11% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
9 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 47.36% 41.85% 37.49% 33.94% 30.96% 28.60% 26.40% 24.73% 23.02% 21.69% 20.42% 19.34% 18.24% 15.11% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
10 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 44.40% 40.01% 36.32% 33.28% 30.76% 28.50% 26.70% 25.06% 23.51% 22.24% 20.99% 20.00% 15.11% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
11 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 46.80% 42.29% 38.56% 35.44% 32.82% 30.50% 28.57% 26.86% 25.32% 23.92% 22.64% 20.00% 15.11% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
12 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 48.95% 44.45% 40.66% 37.44% 34.80% 32.40% 30.44% 28.54% 27.01% 25.59% 24.14% 20.00% 15.11% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
13 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 46.43% 42.62% 39.36% 36.60% 34.20% 32.09% 30.22% 28.57% 27.13% 25.04% 20.00% 15.11% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
14 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 48.23% 44.44% 41.12% 38.40% 35.80% 33.74% 31.77% 30.13% 28.53% 25.04% 20.00% 15.11% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
15 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 49.97% 46.12% 42.80% 40.02% 37.50% 35.27% 33.33% 31.56% 30.07% 25.04% 20.00% 15.11% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
16 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 49.97% 47.73% 44.40% 41.55% 39.00% 36.81% 34.77% 32.99% 30.07% 25.04% 20.00% 15.11% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
17 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 49.97% 49.27% 45.92% 43.08% 40.40% 38.24% 36.21% 34.29% 30.07% 25.04% 20.00% 15.11% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
18 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 49.97% 49.97% 47.36% 44.42% 41.80% 39.56% 37.53% 35.06% 30.07% 25.04% 20.00% 15.11% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%
19 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 49.97% 49.97% 48.64% 45.77% 43.10% 40.88% 38.73% 35.06% 30.07% 25.04% 20.00% 15.11% 10.07% 5.12% 0.00%

Edit: Updated title, added PETAG table to align with perspective of Twilight for +0s

[wandererjs]

Rolfard already posted his hypothesis on the simple percentage discount per bonus on the summation chart

190 ranks=19 bonus level * 3%=57% or discount of 570 kills, or total of 430 kills.

Ahh. I thought there was more to it than that. Are there any details or data on effects of uphunting/underhunting?

At 190 ranks, we are definitely not at 430 kills. 600 is close.. I'd say within 5% (probably 3%) either way. Yes this is with a group, but I can't agree that grouping makes a difference. If it did, adding a fourth member (and a fifth for the last hunt, who stopped by) would have increased the kill count, and it didn't.

Note that this group only has one sorcerer... I can't comment as to if grouped sorcerers have to divide the energy.

[rolfard]

Chart looks good for dimished returns as you approach terminal "necrocity".

If there is indeed a cap further solo hunt studies will reveal it.

[wandererjs]

Well, there's definitely a cap... Coase stated as such. I don't expect there to be a cap hunting like level, though, or even +/- 3 levels (maybe a smidge at +/-3 at 190 ranks).

To verify the cap at the upper end, I might be able to find/convince a 60ish sorcerer with a decent amount of lore (say, for +10), and take hunting to +13s/+14s, where they are capped by level and lore. If kill count is 500 (at nice, even 125 kill quarter-intervals), we know that a) tagging is sufficient, b) it's capped at level, and c) it's capped at (level + lore), not cap(level) + lore bonus.

Does anyone else have data on kills at uphunting/underhunting? Hard data? Soft data? Fuzzy feelings?

Kadishmal

[wandererjs]

I updated post #21 with an updated table calculating the % fewer kills needed, which is the perspective viewed by Rolfard/Alleri. For +0s, their data aligns well, especially at lore bonus ranks 3 through 9.

Casual readers please note that this is not another theory change; this is presenting the same numbers from a weekly kill count percentage down, versus a base energy plus bonus energy per kill, looking up.

Clear as mud?

Kadishmal

[rolfard]

I'm glad I passed maths! (<------ Dropped out of Maths)

[Jeril]

I asked Rolfard about keeping track of the over/under/even kills, but he figures because they are all like level that it should even out. My sorcerer, with only 1 rank of necromancy, at level 48 killing only defenders needed about 1200 kills to cap his energy for the week. There is one way we could figure out the exact kills needed for the week but I am not sure how easy it would be. You'd need someone to run around OTF or Nelemar, appraise everything and only kill creatures that appraise as being an even match for your level or whatever the messaging is, they'd also have to have 0 necromancy ranks, of course.

[rolfard]

killcounter gives target levels. it does not track every implode or evil eye kill though.

[wandererjs]

I asked Rolfard about keeping track of the over/under/even kills, but he figures because they are all like level that it should even out.

I agree. If the level base is like level, the +1/-1s will balance out, +2/-2s, etc. To verify uphunting numbers, you'd have to hunt a base creature higher than you. I think this is harder at cap due to the mixture in the hunting areas, and warcamps/bandits spawn at like level.



My sorcerer, with only 1 rank of necromancy, at level 48 killing only defenders needed about 1200 kills to cap his energy for the week.

Chart for +1 lore at average -2 level says... 1191. Not bad: 0.75% difference. Depending on how long you'll be 48 (say, another cycle), a bump up to +5 (even temporary) would bring you to 1000 precisely. If you level to 49, this would increase back to 1112 again (+5 lore to -3 level)

[Jeril]

Kiramon defenders are base 48, so they were like level.

[Anebriated]

is there a script for tracking number of kills? ill add some data points.

[Jeril]

The script name is, killcounter.

[rolfard]

Tough part is knowing where you started.

[wandererjs]

Kiramon defenders are base 48, so they were like level.

According to Simu bestiary, they are 46.

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/bestiary/creature.asp?creature=1458

Easy to verify with the 703 pushdown.

[wandererjs]

The script name is, killcounter.

Anyone know if there is a group-friendly version of this, where it counts deaths in the room of anything you tagged, or deaths in the room by your group of anything you tagged?

Killcounter only works if you deliver the killing blow, and Rolfard mentioned some missed kills with implosion and evil eye.

Kadishmal

[wandererjs]

According to Simu bestiary, they are 46.

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/bestiary/creature.asp?creature=1458

Easy to verify with the 703 pushdown.

As the kiramon alien invaders are also hated Grimmswarm, it's also easy to check with any Sunfist character.

My wizard is level 46, so exactly like level to what the bestiary says, and a hunt agrees they are 46: generally 50 prestige points, +/- 10 points (for +/- 2 levels). Saw one -3.

I'll burn off some Lumnis with defender-only hunts for a larger sample size, but they're 46.

[Edit: several hours later....]

Definitely level 46. Sample size of 85:

43: 9
44: 6
45: 3
46: 51
47: 6
48: 6
49: 4
Kadishmal

[Jeril]

I guess they were sneaky about changing their levels, had been 48 at one point. Over hunting seems to cut down a lot on the number of kills needed, so that is nice to know.

>kills
Kill breakdown:
kiramon defender, lvl 46: 29
ancient animated slush, lvl 54: 1
glacial morph, lvl 56: 242
snow madrinol, lvl 52: 188
animated slush, lvl 54: 244
Grimswarm: 5
forest trali shaman, lvl 44: 11
grizzled forest trali shaman, lvl 44: 2
forest trali, lvl 46: 3
horned vor'taz, lvl 48: 23
Current Kill Total: 748

That number is off by 1 because I didn't remember to reset until after that first kill.

[wandererjs]

Jeril,

How often did you check for status changes? This is the L48 sorcerer with a +1 lore bonus, right? Some very fast and loose swags with your numbers put that at almost 18% more energy than needed to cap out weekly energy. 748 is still a lot less than the 1200 kiramon defenders, but for an average level of, say +7 (or +6.5 with the madrinols bringing it down and +3 morphs capped at level+10), I'd expect kills for at +1 lore to be around 600 or so.


By fast and loose, I mean estimating the grizzled/ancients at +5, and not adjusting the +8s based on caps of either level or lore, but still: 18% is a lot.

level relative level kills lore energy
Baseline 0 1000 0 50000


Jeril 48
kiramon defender 46 -2 29 1 1218
ancient animated slush 59 10 1 1 102
glacial morph 56 8 242 1 22264
snow madrinol 52 4 188 1 13536
animated slush 54 6 244 1 20008
grimmswarm 48 0 5 1 260
forest trali shaman 44 -4 11 1 352
grizzled forest trali shaman 49 1 2 1 114
forest trali 46 -2 3 1 126
hornet vor'taz 48 0 23 1 1196
total 748 59176
variance 18.35%

You should have been able to cap on the morphs, madrinols, and slushes alone, and had plenty to spare. I can hunt +8s/+9s (now +7s/+8s after level) at the 540 mark.

Kadishmal

[loxe]

My capped sorc will be approaching enough energy to do a tier 2 this week. I will check after every kill till I have enough to do the t2 cast and stop. I can then wait till the cycle resets and start from zero. What scripts will I need running to track the info you need?

P.s. I solo hunt using only 705

[wandererjs]

My capped sorc will be approaching enough energy to do a tier 2 this week. I will check after every kill till I have enough to do the t2 cast and stop. I can then wait till the cycle resets and start from zero. What scripts will I need running to track the info you need?

P.s. I solo hunt using only 705

Honestly, I would not mess with your energy harvesting just to make the weekly cap amount align perfectly with the amounts for the tiers. The tier message changes are convenient to determine your progress, but they're not required. Even if you're not perfectly aligned to start, if you have an estimate for how far into that tier you are, you can check status around the next checkpoint, and use that as a reference point for the next.

Let's say you have a lore bonus of 1, and are uphunting +2 levels. You should need about 800 kills. If your weekly cap was perfectly aligned with your tier, you'd see messaging changes precisely at 200, 400, 600, and cap at 800. Even if you're out of sync, you can guesstimate and check more frequently up to the first checkpoint (and I generally don't check any more than every 10 kills on my low level sorcerer when I'm getting close), and once you hit a checkpoint, just add 200 and start checking again there.

If you're using killcounter, that output should be close enough, although it's easier (less randomness) if you hunt one area with creatures. That also assumes that killcounter's input is accurate, which is just info from Simu's bestiary.

Only info needed is the level uphunting, number of kills, and lore bonus.

[Jeril]

My sorcerer isn't 48 any more, guess I should have mentioned that. For this past weeks kills he was 50 and 51. I am thinking for this next week that I might use his fixskills and see how fast it goes with 55 ranks.

[wandererjs]

My sorcerer isn't 48 any more, guess I should have mentioned that. For this past weeks kills he was 50 and 51.

lol@Jeril

Yes, that makes a difference. :) Adjusting for your actual level makes my numbers look real good, too. Only a 0.18% difference from prediction, and that's with the usual swags, and calling your level 50.5 (half the week on each)

level relative level kills lore energy
Baseline 0 1000 0 50000


Jeril 50.5
kiramon defender 46 -4.5 29 1 855.5
ancient animated slush 59 9 1 1 97
glacial morph 56 5.5 242 1 19239
snow madrinol 52 1.5 188 1 11186
animated slush 54 3.5 244 1 16958
grimmswarm 51 0.5 5 1 272.5
forest trali shaman 44 -6.5 11 1 214.5
grizzled forest trali shaman 49 -1.5 2 1 89
forest trali 46 -4.5 3 1 88.5
hornet vor'taz 48 -2.5 23 1 908.5
total 748 49908.5
variance -0.18%


I am thinking for this next week that I might use his fixskills and see how fast it goes with 55 ranks.

Keep in mind, though, that with this [still theoretical] implementation, the more you're uphunting, the less effect lore has. This isn't a diminishing return on lore; it's just that you're getting more bonus from uphunting than you do from lore.

If you do, please check around the predicted number and reply with how close it is. A level 51 hunting +4s (average of morphs and slushes) with +10 lore should clock in at ~556 kills. You'll be hitting the level+lore cap at any +6s or higher that you kill, so real killcount would be higher.

If anyone had hard numbers on the level distribution around the base level, I'll consider accounting for it, but standard deviations and statistics are more math than I'm really interested in.

Kadishmal

[Jeril]

Madrinols are also in that area and they are only 52. I still plan to keep track and I'll let you know how it goes, and looking at your chart, 589 expected kills to reach the weekly cap.

[loxe]

[QUOTE=wandererjs;1607298
Only info needed is the level uphunting, number of kills, and lore bonus.[/QUOTE]

im hunting in nelemar so id most likely be hunting like level unless you need me to uphunt then i can go to level 2. and my necromancy lore is 152 ranks/252 bonus.

also so i need to run killcounter? or is there another tracking script i should run?

[Jeril]

Just run killcounter, make sure it is clear when you start for every week, just type kills, to pull up the list of creatures with their totals and levels. I'd suggest you check your energy level after every hunt or maybe every 25 creatures to narrow down the kills needed.

[Jeril]

>kills
Kill breakdown:
glacial morph, lvl 56: 149
animated slush, lvl 54: 140
snow madrinol, lvl 52: 113
Current Kill Total: 402

Maxed energy for the week already, I did notice it wasn't counting all my kills though. And no, I haven't been keeping logs on that character, maybe I should for next week.

[rolfard]

Tenth Tier of Necro Lore
solo/paired grimswarm and bandits *ONLY*
;Killcounter data

Kill breakdown:
Grimswarm: 190
bandit: 55
weathered Grimswarm: 1
Grimswarm troll sorcerer: 7
Grimswarm troll sorceress: 2
battle-scarred Grimswarm: 1
Current Kill Total: 256

I calculated a required 350 kills between Tier 2 and Tier 3.
Obviously getting credit for the shared tasks/uncounted kill types.
Did not anticipate I was getting 100+/- uncounted.

Will post more in an estimated 350 kills.

[Goat]

I had tracked kills a little when 735 first came out. I can't find the notes any more, but I believe it was 650 wind wraiths, 3 levels below me, with +12 bonus.
Probably not worth fitting anything to that, though... there are a lot of ways I could be wrong about that.

[rolfard]

IF "+12 bonus" means 78 ranks THEN by my hypothesis 36 percent 'discount' for 640 like level in one week.

So it's near my expected!

[rolfard]

Tier 11, anticipated 33% discount
Even better this time, expected 335 for T3-T4

Hunted only grimswarm and bandits (group)

Kill breakdown:
Grimswarm: 130
Grimswarm troll sorceress: 2
bandit: 89
seasoned Grimswarm: 1
Grimswarm giant sorcerer: 1
Grimswarm giant sorceress: 2
Current Kill Total: 225

Probably not 100 tags past 225 but I *suppose* it's possible...

[Goat]

IF "+12 bonus" means 78 ranks THEN by my hypothesis 36 percent 'discount' for 640 like level in one week.

So it's near my expected!

Yes, 78 ranks, but the wind wraiths were 3 levels below me at the time.

[wandererjs]

Tier 11, anticipated 33% discount
Even better this time, expected 335 for T3-T4

Hunted only grimswarm and bandits (group)

Kill breakdown:
Grimswarm: 130
Grimswarm troll sorceress: 2
bandit: 89
seasoned Grimswarm: 1
Grimswarm giant sorcerer: 1
Grimswarm giant sorceress: 2
Current Kill Total: 225

Probably not 100 tags past 225 but I *suppose* it's possible...

Rolfard,

What's your total count for the weekly cap, both direct kills and tags in a group? I think you posted the two halves, but don't want to put words (numbers) in your mouth.
For Grimmswarm, are these warcamps where you can check the population before/after?

In short, what's your estimated number of kills (including tags) for the week at your lore?

Kadishmal

[wandererjs]

IF "+12 bonus" means 78 ranks THEN by my hypothesis 36 percent 'discount' for 640 like level in one week.

So it's near my expected!

For the discount theory/swag: what do you expect as 'normal' for -3s?

[wandererjs]

Yes, 78 ranks, but the wind wraiths were 3 levels below me at the time.

I can't make 650 kills at -3 work... I'd put it at 848 kills: the lore bonus overcomes the underhunting difference completely, and adds an additional bump.

If wind wraiths were like level to you, that would be pretty close. It's probably not worth pursuing given the age of the data and it's in the "this is what I somewhat recall" category, but what level do you think wind wraiths are? Tsoran's maps aren't always accurate. (Or, they were accurate at one point and the GMs tweaked the levels).

Kadishmal

[Jeril]

>kills
Kill breakdown:
animated slush, lvl 54: 119
glacial morph, lvl 56: 134
snow madrinol, lvl 52: 107
Current Kill Total: 360

Level 51, 55 ranks of necromancy, I kept logs this time so if someone has an easy way for me to comb through them or wants to do it themselves we could get a better count.

[wandererjs]

If you'll pm me the logs, I'll mine them for the kill info. Maybe I can see what killcounter's not catching, too.

Any swags on how much it's missing just by watching?

Kadishmal

[rolfard]

At 88 ranks I counted about 200 bandits and grimswarm for a half week (projected 36% or 320) but grouping makes the numbers off. Regardless this data continues to support the hypothesis.

Will be posting the second half of my week tomorrowish.

[rolfard]

From T5 to cap (estimated 3000-3500)
83 ranks of necromancy, tier 12, anticipated 36% discount.

Kill breakdown:
Grimswarm: 151
bandit: 64
Grimswarm troll sorceress: 3
weathered Grimswarm: 2
battle-scarred Grimswarm: 1
Current Kill Total: 221

Expected Kill Total: 320

Additional bandits from group hunts, miscounted killcounter kills.

Recommend script write to add a manual +/- command to the kill counter to adjust outcomes from group hunts.

[wandererjs]

>kills
Kill breakdown:
animated slush, lvl 54: 119
glacial morph, lvl 56: 134
snow madrinol, lvl 52: 107
Current Kill Total: 360

Level 51, 55 ranks of necromancy, I kept logs this time so if someone has an easy way for me to comb through them or wants to do it themselves we could get a better count.

Okay, I mined Jeril's logs (thanks for providing!), and here are the real numbers:

snow madrinols: 156
animated slush: 203
glacial morphs: 193
Kill total: 552

A quick review of the log confirms that killcounter is missing kills, which is consistent with my brief time playing with it, as well as my brother. As I hunt in groups, it's of less value anyway, but in short: killcounter isn't accurate: The number killcounter provided was off by... 53%.

I haven't looked at the killcounter script to determine why, but it's waaaay off.

Assuming average level, adjusting for lore bonus, gives us:

level relative level kills lore energy
Baseline 0 1000 0 50000
Jeril #2: 51
snow madrinols 52 1 156 10 11700
animated slush 54 3 203 10 17255
glacial morphs 56 5 193 10 18335
total 552 47290
variance -5.42%

The chart predicted a few more, but off by 5% isn't bad.

Kadishmal

[loxe]

with 152 ranks necro lore... level 100 hunting mostly level 3 nelemar with a handfull of trips to level 2 from enough to do a tier 1 to just enough to do a tier 2 310 kills.

[wandererjs]

with 152 ranks necro lore... level 100 hunting mostly level 3 nelemar with a handfull of trips to level 2 from enough to do a tier 1 to just enough to do a tier 2 310 kills.

Without knowing the average level of what you hunt based on what you kill vs what you avoid, this is difficult to estimate, but: 152 ranks of lore gives a plus 16 bonus (you're 1 rank short of next level, by the way).

At an average of like level, the chart predicts 610 kills per week, or 305 for a half-week. While that's conveniently spot on with your 310 number, it's again difficult to estimate without knowing average level of what you're killing. An average of -1 to +1 would be 650, 610, and 575 kills per week, or 325, 305, or 287.5 per half-week.

How were you counting kills?

Kadishmal

[rolfard]

78 ranks, +12 bonus, anticipated 36% reduction in 1000 kills;

Kill breakdown:
bandit: 92
Grimswarm: 139
weathered Grimswarm: 1
Grimswarm troll sorcerer: 2
seasoned Grimswarm: 1
Grimswarm giant sorceress: 1
battle-scarred Grimswarm: 1
Current Kill Total: 237

Expected Kill Total: 320
Brought Tier 1 to Tier 2

[rolfard]

78 ranks, +12 bonus, anticipated 320 kills required to go from T2 to T3


>kills
Kill breakdown:
Grimswarm: 5
triton dissembler, lvl 94: 8
triton executioner, lvl 96: 17
siren, lvl 96: 36
triton combatant, lvl 98: 53
ethereal triton sentry, lvl 103: 11
spectral triton defender, lvl 98: 43
triton magus, lvl 102: 6
triton radical, lvl 100: 42
darkly inked fetish master, lvl 104: 9
glistening cerebralite, lvl 100: 11
murky soul siphon, lvl 106: 10
fallen crusader, lvl 97: 2
enormous rift crawler, lvl 103: 1
lost soul, lvl 91: 2
vaespilon, lvl 93: 1
ancient triton defender, lvl 98: 1
bandit: 12
Current Kill Total: 270

[Tgo01]

Maybe I've just never maxed out my energy for the week or maybe I never paid attention but what is the messaging indicating you maxed out your energy for the week?

[Allereli]

Maybe I've just never maxed out my energy for the week or maybe I never paid attention but what is the messaging indicating you maxed out your energy for the week?

Your rapid build up of necrotic energy has left you feeling overwhelmed and temporarily unable to absorb any new necrotic power.

[Tgo01]

Your rapid build up of necrotic energy has left you feeling overwhelmed and temporarily unable to absorb any new necrotic power.

Oh yeah I do remember seeing that when I first got the spell, but I don't recall seeing it lately :/

Hmm....

You get that message from casting at yourself, right?

[Jeril]

Right, or just casting it without a target, I've got voodoo and just type 735.

[Tgo01]

Right, or just casting it without a target, I've got voodoo and just type 735.

Weird. The amount of energy you can accumulate in one week is always the same, right?

It can't be that I'm just not playing as often lately :O!!!!

[Jeril]

Weird. The amount of energy you can accumulate in one week is always the same, right?

It can't be that I'm just not playing as often lately :O!!!!

Right, max energy for the week doesn't change.

[Tgo01]

From Krakiipedia: The amount of necrotic energy required for each successive tier is increased by 500 from last tier. Ex: 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, and 3000 respective costs from tier 1-5

Does this mean if I have enough energy for a T4 ensorcell it will take another 500 or 3000 kills to reach enough energy for a T5?

[Whirlin]

500

[Tgo01]

500

Whew. Thanks, Whirlin.

That's kind of what I figured but I wanted to make sure.

[MrMortimur]

~500 likelevel kills. Necromancy lore or uphunting would lessen that number

[SHAFT]

500

Will you be putting this information in your sorcerer guide?

[Tgo01]

CURRENT WEEK:
Can gain more energy this week: NO
Current level: 50
Current Necromancy Lore ranks: 0
Critters killed within level range: 1462
Critters killed of unknown level: 21
Critters killed of too low level: 700

Critters within level range killed:
frozen corpse (level 42): 224
ice wraith (level 45): 19
greater ice giant (level 46): 372
seeker (level 52): 95
lesser ice elemental (level 53): 59
minor glacei (level 42): 4
lesser ice giant (level 41): 388
polar bear (level 44): 18
wooly mammoth (level 52): 95
major glacei (level 47): 37
ice golem (level 53): 70
sabre-tooth tiger (level 53): 81
------------------------------
Critters of unknown level killed:
: 21
------------------------------
Critters too low level killed:
frost giant (level 38): 218
snow crone (level 36): 482
------------------------------

LAST WEEK:
Can gain more energy this week: NO
Last week level: 49
Last week Necromancy Lore ranks: 0
Critters killed within level range: 1160
Critters killed of unknown level: 15
Critters killed of too low level: 505

Critters within level range killed:
frozen corpse (level 42): 193
ice wraith (level 45): 13
seeker (level 52): 68
greater ice giant (level 46): 197
minor glacei (level 42): 3
lesser ice elemental (level 53): 83
lesser ice giant (level 41): 301
wooly mammoth (level 52): 73
polar bear (level 44): 23
major glacei (level 47): 26
ice golem (level 53): 94
sabre-tooth tiger (level 53): 86
------------------------------
Critters of unknown level killed:
: 9
greater ice giant (level 46): 2
minor glacei (level 42): 3
ancient major glacei (unknown level): 1
------------------------------
Critters too low level killed:
rolton (level 1): 11
kobold (level 1): 14
frost giant (level 38): 148
snow crone (level 36): 308
rabid squirrel (level 2): 24
------------------------------


That's a whole lotta critters killed.

[Jeril]

Well if you kill 1000 like level creatures it caps out your week, but under hunting by 1 level you need to kill 100 more creatures, 2 levels and its 200 more. Up hunting cuts the number down a lot but there must be a curve to it because it took around 400 kills up hunting by 5-6 levels with 55 ranks of necromancy to cap out for the week.

[crb]

All I can tell you is this: at 180 necromancy ranks it still takes a me a fuck ton of kills to max out my energy. Meaning level is far more important than lore training, or no amount of lore training makes up for killing things that are on the young side.

[rolfard]

180 ranks is +18 bonus (at 171). My extrapolation; 18x3=54% reduction of 1,000.

Try killing ONLY grimswarm and bandits for 460 kills and see if that maxes your week, or 230 and see if that brings you up one tier post tier 1.

[Allereli]

Estild- Since you're being so open and generous about lore benefits, how about describing the per tier benefit for necro energy/juice accumulation?

Thanks :)


Sorcerers are allowed to gain up to 10,000 necrotic energy points per week or 35,000 total. Each like level kill is 10 points, with + or - 1 point for each level difference up to -10 or +10, so 0 to 20 base points possible for each kill. Sorcerous Lore, Necromancy provides a flat modifier, using a seed 1 summation / 2. So at 100 lore ranks, it provides +6 points for each kill, which is 60% bonus against like level kills. Of course, since it's a flat modifier, the percent bonus varies depending on the base amount of points gained (which is determined by the level difference). So if you were overhunting by 10 levels, the lore bonus is only about 30%, or if you're underhunting by 5 levels, the bonus is 120%.

GameMaster Estild


The dividing by 2 is very confusing to me. Since it is truncating, one only receives additional benefits every two tiers?


Correct.

So don't end training on an odd # tier, you are wasting TPs if you do.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Sorcerers/Sorcerous%20Lore%20-%20Necromancy/view/344

[MrMortimur]

Heh, was surprised to read his post. Bit annoying that 91 ranks is the odd tier as I stopped there because of the 90 rank double flare. Guess it is time to make the leap to 105.

[Jeril]

Heh, was surprised to read his post. Bit annoying that 91 ranks is the odd tier as I stopped there because of the 90 rank double flare. Guess it is time to make the leap to 105.

That is annoying! And thanks for the info Allereli, you are a peach.

[Allereli]

Heh, was surprised to read his post. Bit annoying that 91 ranks is the odd tier as I stopped there because of the 90 rank double flare. Guess it is time to make the leap to 105.

yeah he'll probably regret he answered when he gets my next email, which I burned out on finishing last night

[Kithus]

yeah he'll probably regret he answered when he gets my next email, which I burned out on finishing last night

Always happy to hear we're going out of our way to make dev GMs regret answering questions.

[Allereli]

Always happy to hear we're going out of our way to make dev GMs regret answering questions.

wow, aren't you the royal prick. You have no idea what I'm writing, nor do you have any concept of how much I've done to get this type of information out in the open.

[Warriorbird]

He's also never ever been unkind to a GM. Notably, though, you've gotten upset at people for complaints before yourself.

[Kithus]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/55580122.jpg

[Allereli]

He's also never ever been unkind to a GM. Notably, though, you've gotten upset at people for complaints before yourself.

I have a great working relationship with most GMs, and especially Estild, but thank you for your concern.

[Kithus]

Thread: Theory on Necromancy Lore bonus for Ensorcell
next time you mention any page on the wiki, you might want to note that I've written/formatted/rewritten over half the pages, and Estild himself has thanked me. so go fuck yourself and the horse your rode in on.


http://treasure.diylol.com/uploads/post/image/628038/resized_forever-alone-meme-generator-no-credit-no-love-fea9cd.jpg

[Allereli]

TROLLOLOL fucking prick

sorry if you don't want to see additional lore information, I do.

[Kithus]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/fa/fab24fe0678404d9a7d670313ad82af7ebd8a24b83be1cac7b b29244a6a1932c.jpg

[Astray]

This is what the ignore button was kind of invented for. Just saying.

[Gelston]

Allereli is on the rag again it seems.

[Allereli]

Allereli is on the rag again it seems.

actually Kithus is

[Gelston]

actually Kithus is

BOTH of you are.

[Astray]

SO MUCH BLOOD

[Allereli]

SO MUCH BLOOD

http://content9.flixster.com/movie/11/16/89/11168971_800.jpg

[Astray]

We've already established that there is blood. Keep up!

[Kithus]

actually Kithus is

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/d8f/521/6a4/resized/defiant-peewee-meme-generator-i-know-you-are-but-what-am-i-267c4a.jpg

[Allereli]

This is what the ignore button was kind of invented for. Just saying.

pretty much. and done.

[Warriorbird]

I have a great working relationship with most GMs, and especially Estild, but thank you for your concern.

No no no. I was saying that Kithus doesn't exactly have a reputation for being kind and loving to staff. Then I pointed out that normally you fall more on the side of getting upset at people for complaining about GMs, because you DO have a good working relationship with most of them.

[Whirlin]

This is why sorcerers can't have nice threads.

[Rheisia]

Yeah...

So back to the necro info. Anyone willing to make a script to track necro energy accumulation? We have everything we need now.