CAUTION: RELIGIOUS SUBJECT

[Parkbandit]

I simply don't get it.

I was watching TV today about the storm today and they were interviewing a family that decided to stay in their trailor instead of evacuating like they were advised.

When asked why, the lady said, "If the Lord wants us, he will take us."

Huh? Not only do you believe in a 'higher being' but you don't mind him picking and choosing who lives or dies on a daily basis?

I simply don't get the logic in religion.

[Celexei]

people that are that smart deserve to get what happens to them. Common logic helps alot over the fact when something you know has prolly a good 65% chance of killing you, especially in their lovely abode situation. They shoulda asked them if when they get sick they go to the doctor, or do they just let their higher being take care of that problem too, and hell if we die cause we catch a simple chest flu that turns into something more, oh well the "lord" wanted to take us. Its like being a martyr for your faith, which is pointless, you get nothing from it, your lifes over, no one else is there to hear your shit message anyway, and besides for doing the world a favor, being a martyr is all in all for nothing. But these people are like that, just they're choosing to throw themselves on the fire, instead of being put in it without trying to resist. Let Fate do what it wilst!

[Cayge]

Yeah I really enjoy the rationalization Christians use to describe such events. "Gods plan is for us to conciously avoid leaving, and maybe die". Hmm, by that rationalization in particular, they dont value their lives much to not make an effort to escape. I wonder of which is the higher offense.

Who cares, we're semi-advance warm blooded animals on a ball of dirt and water in space.

[Celexei]

mmmm dirt and water

[Skirmisher]

This brought to mind one of my favorite stories that was used by a priest in a homily once and so i found it online as I think it applies quite nicely.


http://kimm.warped.com/jokepage/trust.htm


A farmer is in Iowa during a flood. The river is overflowing, with
water surrounding the farmer's home up to his front porch. As he is
standing there, a boat comes up, The man in the boat says " jump in
I'll take you to safety".
The farmer crosses his arms and says stubbornly, "Nope, I put my
trust in God"

The boat goes away. The water rises to the second floor. Another
boat comes up, the man says to the farmer who is now in the second
story window, "Jump in, I'll save you"

The farmer again says, "Nope, I put my trust in God"

The boat goes away. Now the water is up to the roof. As The farmer
stands on the roof, a helicopter comes over, and drops a ladder. The
pilot yells down to the farmer "I'll save you, climb the ladder."

The farmer says "Nope, I put my trust in God"

The helicopter goes away. The water comtinues to rise and sweeps the
farmer off the roof. He drowns.

The farmer goes to heaven. God sees him and says "What are you
doing here?"

The farmer says "I put my trust in you and you let me down."

God says, "What do you mean, let you down? I sent you two boats and a
helicopter"!!!

[Kitsun]

Originally posted by Celexei
people that are that smart deserve to get what happens to them.

I would like to add that stupid people get what they deserve as well.

[Scott]

Most hard core religious people believe that god decides when you die. God is suppose to keep you safe and watch over you in times of need, and I guess that means a hurricane. I believe in god, but I'd hardly consider myself to be a seriously religous person. However if I was those people I'd look at it like this, God gave me the oppurtunity to get the hell out of the way and avoid being in danger, so my ass is getting out of there.

[Bobmuhthol]

Dead Christians: a whole bunch
Dead Bobmuhthols: none

Atheism wins.

[The Cat In The Hat]

I have never really been a religous person, I never denied that there was a God, but I never "worshiped" him either. But you can bet your ass that when my daughter spent the first 76 days of her premature life in the NICU I prayed to him daily. The fact that her birthday is on the 21st, and she will be a healthy happy 3 year old, makes me believe in God, as well as the awesome skills of the medical staff at the hospital. Should I just have told them "Let her die, if that is God's will"? No way! God's will was that the medical staff had the knowledge to save her, and save her they did.

Saying I'm gonna stand here and die because that's god's will, and not useing the brain he gave you to save yourself... wouldn't that be considered blasphemy?

[Meos]

I put my life in the hands of God everyday. But I'm not gonna stand in the way when he's comin to blow my house into the fucking ocean...

[imported_Kranar]

I live my life under the assumption that God will not do me or anyone else any favour.

It is neither for favour nor convenience that I worship and believe in God.

[Chadj]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Dead Christians: a whole bunch
Dead Bobmuhthols: none

Atheism wins.

Yes.

What do you call a dyslexic, insomniac Agnostic with diarrhea?

-A person who sits on the toilet all night pondering if there's a Dog?

Thank you.

[Toxicvixen]

Skirmisher great joke/story! :lol:

[Artha]

Urbandictionary amuses me.

Atheist

1. One who does not believe in any gods. There would be nothing wrong with this if most of them didn't fit the second definition.

2. Some know-it-all teenager who pretends to hate religion, but celebrates Christmas because s/he is a greedy hypocrite.

[Skirmisher]

Hurrah! I'm glad someone else at least found it good also.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<2. Some know-it-all teenager who pretends to hate religion, but celebrates Christmas because s/he is a greedy hypocrite.>>

I hate those fucks.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Artha
Urbandictionary amuses me.

Atheist

1. One who does not believe in any gods. There would be nothing wrong with this if most of them didn't fit the second definition.

2. Some know-it-all teenager who pretends to hate religion, but celebrates Christmas because s/he is a greedy hypocrite. Good find, Artha.

[Chelle]

Originally posted by The Cat In The Hat
I have never really been a religous person, I never denied that there was a God, but I never "worshiped" him either. But you can bet your ass that when my daughter spent the first 76 days of her premature life in the NICU I prayed to him daily. The fact that her birthday is on the 21st, and she will be a healthy happy 3 year old, makes me believe in God, as well as the awesome skills of the medical staff at the hospital. Should I just have told them "Let her die, if that is God's will"? No way! God's will was that the medical staff had the knowledge to save her, and save her they did.

Saying I'm gonna stand here and die because that's god's will, and not useing the brain he gave you to save yourself... wouldn't that be considered blasphemy?

I agree. I think it is blasphemy not to use the common sense we were given. It's like dur, "I'm gonna stand in traffic and if God wants me dead then I'll get hit with a Semi." And I can relate with you on praying for my baby when she was NICU for 10 days. It was hard, and she is healthy today.

[Tsa`ah]

At times I wish there were more people like this.

Why?

They live short lives and the rest of us don't have to bear the burden of their stupidity for long.

Great examples to the rest of the "thinking" population.

[Brattt8525]

Good one Skirmy....


Good lord people who say "if God wants us, he will take us" really need to be taken out of the gene pool.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
They live short lives and the rest of us don't have to bear the burden of their stupidity for long.

Unfortunately, they'll also inflict that on their children and the kids don't deserve to suffer for their parents' stupidity.

And yes, Skirm. It was a very good story.

Raven

[HarmNone]

Hee! That was great, Skirm!

As far as I'm concerned, if one believes in an all-powerful diety, it would stand to reason that if that diety wants you dead, he/she'll see to it that you bite the dust no matter what you do. Therefore, it is prudent to get yer ass outa Dodge! If you have an automobile accident on your way out, your number was up, eh?

HarmNone would use her own common sense and evacuate

[DeV]

I agree with Harmnone. I believe in God and I also belive in free will to make our own choices and use common sense. Too many people are lacking in common sense, they should all be fertile.

[Toxicvixen]

And why haven't they been told before that God helps those who help themselves?

I am an Atheist but I am culturally Jewish.

I am only breaking the first commandment by not believing in god, and have broken the other commandments a few times.

All in all, religion is a great opiate for the masses.

[Jazuela]

A book series I've read really gives me "spiritual" guidance, rather than religious guidance. I'm not religious at all, though I definitely believe there's something "bigger" than we are. In the books (Conversations with God, by Neale Donald Walsh), God explains to Neale the 10 commandments in one of the chapters.

He says basically, that they're not commandments. They're affirmations. IF you believe in me - then you believe in love. And if you believe in love, you will not murder, because murder is contrary to the belief in love. Not because I am ordering you to refrain from murder, but instead - because the idea of doing such an act would never occur to you.

If you believe in me, you would not "covet thy neighbor's wife" - because believing in me means you would never have reason to desire that which is not yours. And so on and so forth down the whole 10.

It's a neat concept.

[Bobmuhthol]

To believe in God, you are, in fact, religious.


Edited to change a god to God to better fit the situation.

[Edited on 9-6-2004 by Bobmuhthol]

[Jazuela]

I don't "believe in God." I thought I was clear on that. I believe that there is something "bigger" than we are. That the universe is just too vast for there NOT to be something more - profound than human beings living on this tiny little planet tucked in some obscure corner of the cosmos.

Is it God? I dunno. I don't really care. I'm just pretty comfortable in believing it's something.

[Bobmuhthol]

So you read a book about something you do not believe in and it gives you guidance? Oh snap.

[Ravenstorm]

To me, religious implies something more structured than just a belief in a god. A religion includes a dogma common to all its believers. You can be spiritual and believe in one or more deities or entities and not follow any specific religion.

Raven

[Bobmuhthol]

To everyone who speaks and understands English, to have a belief in the existence of a deity is to be religious.

[imported_Kranar]

<< To everyone who speaks and understands English, to have a belief in the existence of a deity is to be religious. >>

Perhaps, but this limits the definition too much.

For example, my belief in God came before my belief in Islam.

My belief in God is not itself religious, infact my belief in God happens to be almost entirely mathematical in nature and based on the findings of Georg Cantor and Kurt Godel (the existence of the Omega/Absolute Infinite along with both Imcompleteness Theorems).

My belief in Islam, however, is a religious belief but it comes second to my belief in God.

[Jazuela]

I won't bother with the copy/paste:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religious

Being religious isn't simply believing in a deity. It is the belief COMBINED with active reverence or worship.

You have to have both criteria to qualify as a "religious" person. My grandmother believed in God, and was not religious at all. She went to temple only out of obligation during the major holidays, not out of any dire need to worship.

And - people get inspiration for their own spirituality from many places. One does not have to "believe in god" to embrace a concept. The idea that I am not commanded to love my neighbor as myself - but instead that I would love my neighbor as myself anyway because I embrace the idea of love - doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with God, or any deity at all. It's the concept I like, not the dogma involved.

Bob - really. You are a very young person. There's no shame in that. But please don't offer opinions on things so far-reaching as religion until you've lived long enough to enjoy (and/or suffer) a few life experiences that can help you form those opinions.

[Bobmuhthol]

OH SHIT, I forgot that the concept of religion is entirely dependent on how old you are because you somehow experience things that allow you to form an opinion (I don't even want to know where opinion came into this) on the matter. I always thought that any experience you could have at 5 you could also have at 50. My life is ruined. FUCK.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Jazuela
But please don't offer opinions on things so far-reaching as religion until you've lived long enough to enjoy (and/or suffer) a few life experiences that can help you form those opinions. I tried my best to come up with a worded response to this, but all I got is :rolleyes:

[Edaarin]

I don't consider myself an overtly religious person. I am Buddhist by birth and the way I was raised, but I've broken a lot of precepts and do not practice regularly.

The way I act, the things I do, all these are more determined and constrained by what I think is human nature moreso than thoughts of what happens after I die. It's not the fear of damnation or an eternity suffering that keeps me from committing heinous crimes. Social expectations and personal morals play a much larger role than religion in keeping me from acting on any dark impulses.

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by Toxicvixen
And why haven't they been told before that God helps those who help themselves?

That is where common sense would come into play. Your either born with it, or not, can't be learned.

Luckily I was born with it....and an incredible amount of intelligence...hmm its great to be ME!

Tara...feeling rather....good <wonder if the 2 drinks has anything to do with it> tonight.

:D

[peam]

ACCEPT CHRIST. BE SAVED.

[Toxicvixen]

I am glad some of us have common sense at least. :D Even with a couple drinks under thier belt!

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by peam
ACCEPT CHRIST. BE SAVED.

From?

[peam]

Eternal fire and brimstone. Duh.

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by Toxicvixen
I am glad some of us have common sense at least. :D Even with a couple drinks under thier belt!

I agree! Drinks are on me....

[Hulkein]

I wouldn't consider myself a highly religious person in the sense of 'YOU FOLLOW THE CHURCHES STRICT RULES OR YOU BURN.' I do however consider myself a very religious person in the sense of I truely believe there is something bigger than us all. When I hear a Bible thumping Christian saying 'YOU ACCEPT JESUS OR YOU BURN IN HELL' it pisses me off beyond belief. I have argued with some Christians who honestly believe anyone who was born after Christ burns in hell unless they accepted Jesus. Even when I propose the question 'What if this person was born 100 years after Jesus in a land far far away and never heard of Him, will they burn in hell even if they lived as close to as Jesus as possible and gave up their life for their family?' some people will still respond with 'yes, they will not receive salvation.' Please. /rant

[Ilvane]

I believe in in a higher power pretty strongly, but I think when a storm is coming your way, you get the heck out of there. God didn't say be stupid and I'll save you..:grin:

It's funny when people think like that. I mean, it's not reasonable.

-A

[Toxicvixen]

I agree! Drinks are on me....


Awesome! I am going to go have one right now! :smilegrin:

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by Toxicvixen


I agree! Drinks are on me....


Awesome! I am going to go have one right now! :smilegrin:

Ya! I am 2 up on you tho...on my thrid slow comfy screw. I am so going to hate life in the morning.

:D

[Toxicvixen]

Ya! I am 2 up on you tho...on my thrid slow comfy screw. I am so going to hate life in the morning.


Ah I hope not! Just drink lots of water and have bean burritos from Taco bell at like 2 in the morning. That always seems to prevent any hangover for me. :D

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by Toxicvixen


Ya! I am 2 up on you tho...on my thrid slow comfy screw. I am so going to hate life in the morning.


Ah I hope not! Just drink lots of water and have bean burritos from Taco bell at like 2 in the morning. That always seems to prevent any hangover for me. :D

Toxic....your avatar...is...making me ill, I like it, but not...right now. I blame it on the alcolhol tho!

[Jolena]

I have to agree with Cat that I am not what you would call a devout religious person however I do believe in God due to my experiences with my youngest child who spent 3 months in NICU from a premature birth. I have always believed in a higher power and I spose it's convenient to name it "God" but I don't believe in organized religion. I just follow what I think my God would want me to do with my life and with others and hope that it works out in the end. I would NOT however let myself drown in a flood to prove my faith lol

[Shari]

Lets see...first of all: :heart: Artha

I think every juniorhigh/highschool kid goes through the "atheist" thing but it wears off when you get older.

I went through the same stupid thing and while I don't worship a particular religion, like others here, I believe there is a higher power out there that helps me (us) out at times.

As far as the people who try to push their religion on me...well, they don't visit my house, thank the powers-that-be. Thankfully our new neighborhood doesn't seem to have any of those.

None visit my parent's house anymore, hehe. They used to come praising Jesus and what have you, and I'd look over my shoulder and say to my brother, "No Joe, not yet, there's Jehova's witnesses here and if you cut its throat now all the blood will spill out before we can drink it".

Ah, good times.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Jesae
I think every juniorhigh/highschool kid goes through the "atheist" thing but it wears off when you get older.

Uh, thanks for your condescending bullshit. I guess that explains why there are no atheists over the age of 20. I'm sick of hearing "Oh, it's just a phase" whenever someone comments on atheism.

[kheldarin]

I think Atheism is dumb.

You die then you become worm food?

What's the harm in believing in something? If you do believe in God, and there happens to be no God..nothing will happen to you, right? What's the risk?

[Shari]

I wasn't trying to be condescending. Try taking your midol before reading and maybe you wont pop a nerve. THAT...that is condescending.

Anyway. I wasn't saying EVERYONE who is atheist is clueless. I'm saying in GENERAL I found that most teenagers (that I knew and know now) proclaim themselves atheist because they don't believe there is a god. And GENERALLY change their views as they get older.

Chill the fuck out.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by kheldarin
I think Atheism is dumb.

You die then you become worm food?

What's the harm in believing in something? If you do believe in God, and there happens to be no God..nothing will happen to you, right? What's the risk?

What exactly is an atheist risking? That a kind and loving god will send them to hell for not believing? Why should they sacrifice their own personal standards to play it safe? Wouldn't a god be insulted with a "Well, I better play it safe" belief?

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
[quote]
Uh, thanks for your condescending bullshit. I guess that explains why there are no atheists over the age of 20. I'm sick of hearing "Oh, it's just a phase" whenever someone comments on atheism.

I doubt she was trying to be condescending. She was simply pointing out a popular juvenile phase and how it is grown out of due to lack conviction.

I didn't read any slam on atheists at all.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by kheldarin
I think Atheism is dumb.

You die then you become worm food?

What's the harm in believing in something? If you do believe in God, and there happens to be no God..nothing will happen to you, right? What's the risk?

Using that logic, everyone should also believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

Raven

[Shari]

Wait...you're making sound like if you use common sense and think that "god" isn't all kind and forgiving, than you're atheist?

[kheldarin]

Better than a "God does not exist at all" attitude.

I guess we all find out eventually in the end, eh?

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
Uh, thanks for your condescending bullshit. I guess that explains why there are no atheists over the age of 20. I'm sick of hearing "Oh, it's just a phase" whenever someone comments on atheism.

I doubt she was trying to be condescending. She was simply pointing out a popular juvenile phase and how it is grown out of due to lack conviction.

I didn't read any slam on atheists at all.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Jesae

I wasn't trying to be condescending. Try taking your midol before reading and maybe you wont pop a nerve. THAT...that is condescending.

Anyway. I wasn't saying EVERYONE who is atheist is clueless. I'm saying in GENERAL I found that most teenagers (that I knew and know now) proclaim themselves atheist because they don't believe there is a god. And GENERALLY change their views as they get older.

Chill the fuck out.

I am chill, you fucking hose beast. Oh, so NOW you're not saying that everyone who is atheist isn't just passing through a phase. Let's look at your original quote.



I think every juniorhigh/highschool kid goes through the "atheist" thing but it wears off when you get older.

Looks like that is exactly what you were saying. Maybe you should use a brain cell or two before you post and then I won't "pop a nerve."

[Edited on 9-6-2004 by ThisOtherKingdom]

[kheldarin]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by kheldarin
I think Atheism is dumb.

You die then you become worm food?

What's the harm in believing in something? If you do believe in God, and there happens to be no God..nothing will happen to you, right? What's the risk?

Using that logic, everyone should also believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

Raven

Sure, believe in something illogical like Santa Claus and whatever the hell you want to believe in.

God just seems much more believable, I think.

Take your head out of your ass, please.

[Shari]

My apologies for not having clarifed myself better. So not EVERY teenager. Really, if you want your point to hold more water without you sounding like a hormone-raging teenager, try to get your point across without using lowly-trash insults.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by kheldarin
God just seems much more believable, I think.

Think whatever you want. Not everyone agrees with you.

So take your head out of your ass please.

Raven

[Artha]

Using that logic, everyone should also believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

Christmas, Easter, and being rewarded for losing teeth are all human ideas.

Death isn't.

[Tsa`ah]

Accepting God and the whole belief structure is a Christian notion.

I was taught, by way of Torah and family, that one's conduct in life determines what happens when they die. That and the concept of hell is non-Jewish and non-Christian concept. Come to think of it, heaven is a Christian concept.

No one knows, no one will ever know, so why exactly bring it up?

[Shari]

Because PB likes to cause trouble and watch the claws come out and the fur fly.

Bastard!

[kheldarin]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by kheldarin
God just seems much more believable, I think.

Think whatever you want. Not everyone agrees with you.

So take your head out of your ass please.

Raven

Well, to a normal human being, God seems more believable, ask ANYONE. If you're a full-grown idiot (not children cause adults tend to lie to them), you can believe in something as childish as the Easter Bunny.

[Satira]

I believe in energy, because I know it exists and can change forms.

I'm definitely not convinced God exists and I'm not convinced God doesn't exist. And I've been through plenty of things in my life to spark belief. While the thought is interesting, I just don't have any evidence.

However, religion in general is still one of my favorite subjects.

In my experience, I haven't seen anything to make me think that atheism is a phase. I've known some teenagers who are atheist and some adults. Some of people stay that way and other change. But really, you can say that about any belief or lack of belief there is.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Jesae
My apologies for not having clarifed myself better. So not EVERY teenager. Really, if you want your point to hold more water without you sounding like a hormone-raging teenager, try to get your point across without using lowly-trash insults.

I didn't insult you until you started with the ridiculous "take a midol, don't pop a nerve, chill out" comments. What I originally accused you of was making a condescending, bullshit statement, which you just admitted was true.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by kheldarin
Well, to a normal human being, God seems more believable, ask ANYONE.

Funny, I know quite a few people who find them all equally unbelievable. Maybe you just need to get out more.

Raven

[kheldarin]

All of the athiests I know are teenagers.

[Satira]

How is God more believable? I'm confused.

More books have been written about it?

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by kheldarin
All of the athiests I know are teenagers.

Maybe that's because you're a teenager?

Raven

[Shari]

Okay, because it seems myself and others aren't understanding how you're coming up with this. *How* exactly was my statement condescending?

Frankly? I don't care what sort of beliefs teenagers have. I followed the whole "my life sucks so god must not exist or else he'd help me shit" and proclaimed myself atheist once too. Why would I talk down apon it? I think everyone is allowed to worship (or not) for that matter. I thought I made it very clear the only time I didn't like it was when religion was pushed apon me.

I don't want to blow this into a rediculous argument simply because its a horrible waste of time and you seem to be quite um...upset by it. So I'll graciously bow out and let you continue to do whatever it is that you do on your own. Because I'm done.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by kheldarin

Well, to a normal human being, God seems more believable, ask ANYONE. If you're a full-grown idiot (not children cause adults tend to lie to them), you can believe in something as childish as the Easter Bunny.

So let me get this straight. You'll accept a story about a being that is so loaded with conflicting information, has such wrath in one verse, love in another verse, will destroy one group of people and shelter another, all of which he created. A being you have never seen and have no proof of existing and in the same breath claim that existence is more believable than a fat man in a red suit or a rabbit with eggs.

You can't prove or disprove any of the three and logically you can't claim a normal person will accept one over the other. You can make a personal claim, but a societal claim of that magnitude is rather ... absurd.

[kheldarin]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by kheldarin
Well, to a normal human being, God seems more believable, ask ANYONE.

Funny, I know quite a few people who find them all equally unbelievable. Maybe you just need to get out more.

Raven

Of course you do, those type of people are called Atheists. I know quite a few myself, and they're all teenagers. Weird, huh?

[kheldarin]

Heh heh, looks like I'm taking on all three at a time.

We'll all find out in the end.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Jesae
Okay, because it seems myself and others aren't understanding how you're coming up with this. *How* exactly was my statement condescending?

I don't see what is so confusing about it. You accused every atheist of just going through a time that they'd eventually get over and change their minds because it's a childish, "junior high" belief.

[Satira]

I'm not an atheist and I find them all equally believable.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

I don't see what is so confusing about it. You accused every atheist of just going through a time that they'd eventually get over and change their minds because it's a childish, "junior high" belief.

I think you took her statement too literally.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
I think you took her statement too literally.

I think I took it as literally as anyone else would if I were to make a statement saying that every Christian, Jew or Muslim was just going through a junior high phase.

[Artha]

You seem eager to be offended.

[kheldarin]

Seems like it.

[Satira]

Flippancy has a tendency to piss people off, from what I've seen.

Eh, I'm not religious at all. I live my life to the best of my abilities and just hope to whoever that it works out the cosmic karmic scales. If not, oh well I know I did my best.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

I think I took it as literally as anyone else would if I were to make a statement saying that every Christian, Jew or Muslim was just going through a junior high phase.

:lol: :lol2: :lol:

If Judaism ever became a "cool" phase in life ... I would probably consider becoming Amish or a Mennonite.

She made a broad sweeping statement without realizing it. I doubt that was her intent.

I'm not ragging you, but you did become unhinged really fast when perhaps you should have asked for clarification ... and then got yourself all unhinged.

[Shari]

...are atheists allowed to have mass quantities of sex to relieve sexual frustration and stress?








Sorry, I really couldn't help myself.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Jesae
...are atheists allowed to have mass quantities of sex to relieve sexual frustration and stress?








Sorry, I really couldn't help myself.

Yes, we are allowed to. We're all godless, immoral heretics, you stupid cunt.

Oops, sorry about that last insult. I just couldn't help myself.

[Shari]

Wow. Do you usually go all spastic, beating your fists against your chest (when you're not otherwise dragging your knuckles on the ground) when someone makes a joke in real life?

[kheldarin]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

Originally posted by Jesae
...are atheists allowed to have mass quantities of sex to relieve sexual frustration and stress?







Sorry, I really couldn't help myself.

Yes, we are allowed to. We're all godless, immoral heretics, you stupid cunt.

Oops, sorry about that last insult. I just couldn't help myself.

You take things really seriously, huh? Ease the fuck out.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Jesae
Wow. Do you usually go all spastic, beating your fists against your chest (when you're not otherwise dragging your knuckles on the ground) when someone makes a joke in real life?

I was going spastic? I thought we were both kidding around. I mean, the little "just couldn't help myself" disclaimer at end of your post gave you free reign to insult me. The same doesn't apply to mine?

[Shari]

Not when you use something so filthy as the word "cunt". I figured you could have at least come up with something a bit more decent, not to mention funny.

[Tsa`ah]

Play nice kids ... and get back on topic.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Jesae
Not when you use something so filthy as the word "cunt". I figured you could have at least come up with something a bit more decent, not to mention funny.

You find it filthy, I find it endearing. I guess people see things different ways. Just like religion.

You're a douche

[Toxicvixen]

You find it filthy, I find it endearing. I guess people see things different ways. Just like religion.


How can that word be endearing? I understanding having different views and everything, but in no way can that word be considered endearing. At least when people debate Religion in a mature setting they shouldn't have to start name calling, you filthy poo head!

[edited to add shouldn't]

[Edited on 9-6-2004 by Toxicvixen]

[Tsa`ah]

[Warn interact Toxicvixen]

Poohead :weird:

[Shari]

Get back on topic...old man. :bleh:

One of these days, I'm going to remember the right symbols for the smilies and not have to edit all the damned time.

[Edited on 9-6-2004 by Jesae]

[Caiylania]

I'm on the fence. The funny thing is, all my reasons for wanting to believe in God are selfish. The idea of seeing my mother, grand-parents, and other loved ones again. To be able to look down on my daughter when my time comes. To know someTHING is looking out for us all, and has some big plan.

Yet, part of me isn't able to fully make that leap of belief. I know strong believers say there is a reason God/Allah/insert other names for a one god here..... must allow horrible things in the world to happen.

I know as a parent you must allow your kids to make mistakes, to learn. But no parent would allow their kids to seriously hurt, killed, raped, etc.... if they could stop it. And if God is all powerful, why can't He? Why would He help some people and let others suffer their whole lives?

Anyways.... I don't know. That's what most of us seem to come too, is we don't know. And from there they go one way or the other, to make that leap of belief, or not.

To get back to original topic though, I've read that story Skirmy posted before, and I think it suits the PB's first comment perfectly. Believing in God or not, your fate is up to you. If you choose to let a hurricane sweep you away, thats your own damn fault. Not God's or anyone elses.

Fools.

[Jazuela]

First - Jesae didn't say anywhere in her post that "all athiests are juvenile." She said "all teenagers go through an athiest phase." I disagree with her on it, having known many teenagers who never went through that phase.

However, it IS a phase for many teenagers, and those teenagers who go through it - go through it and come out accepting something OTHER than atheism.

If you've ever read any books on how to raise children, you'd notice a trend - that they ALL have a chapter in them regarding religion, and they ALL mention that the distinct possibility exists for your kid to go through this very phase.

Her point is valid, though worded a bit too universally.

2) A true, loving god wouldn't mind in the least if someone chose to be an athiest. Something THAT powerful - why should it care, really? Is the "creator of all" gonna take issue with some small puny amoeba of a creature denying its existence? I mean - do I get upset when the blue paint on the mural I put on my living room wall refuses to thank me for making it exist?

Let athiests be athiests - it isn't hurting anyone or anything.

As for religious people - let them believe that everyone who doesn't, is going to hell. That's fine too. Doesn't hurt me at all, and I don't need to argue with them to make myself feel better, nor do I feel the need to defend myself against it.

Those of us who are "agnostic" or "new age" or "pagan" have no problem with anyone's beliefs, really. We're human, we're those little tiny amoebas of existence on that itty bitty ball-o-gravity tucked in the corner of the universe. We just don't matter all that much, in the grand scheme of things. So we go through our lives, comfortable in our belief that there's "something" out there, and generally let it go at that and try to live well while we're here.

Holy hard hornballs, this subject got a lot of posts while I slumbered! :wow:

[Psykos]

Kneel to Zod!#!%#@%

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Accepting God and the whole belief structure is a Christian notion.

I was taught, by way of Torah and family, that one's conduct in life determines what happens when they die. That and the concept of hell is non-Jewish and non-Christian concept. Come to think of it, heaven is a Christian concept.

No one knows, no one will ever know, so why exactly bring it up?

It is?

Isn't the Old Testament a Jewish book? If so that talks about heaven and hell a whole lot. I also thought that Jewish people had to follow strict dietary laws et cetera. No?

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Hulkein
It is?

Isn't the Old Testament a Jewish book? If so that talks about heaven and hell a whole lot. I also thought that Jewish people had to follow strict dietary laws et cetera. No?

No, the old Testament is a Christian book with Christian translations.

The book in which Judaism is centered is the Torah. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. In that order. Kashrut Law, the law of Moses, is contained within Leviticus and they are not just dietary. These laws encompass every facet of Jewish life.

No where but in Genesis is Heaven mentioned, and that pretty much means the sky. No where in any Jewish texts is hell mentioned. In fact the afterlife isn't mentioned much at all.

Then we go on to the book of prophets, the Nevi'im. Nope, no heaven, no hell.

The Ketuvim, our moral fiction, the writings, are also bereft of the mentionings of heaven and hell.

Maybe along the line of history the Greeks, the Catholics, the Lutherans, or Protestants wormed in those concepts, but do not assume they are part of or have ever been part of Judaism.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Caiylania
Why would He help some people and let others suffer their whole lives?There's more than one kind of suffering. For the eternal kind, God is always ready to help.
Originally posted by Jazuela
Is the "creator of all" gonna take issue with some small puny amoeba of a creature denying its existence?I'd say that's why he's the He, and you're the amoeba. ;)
let them believe that everyone who doesn't, is going to hell. Speaking for the Christian faith, I can assure you that's not the case.

Tsa`ah played the "translation" card. :(

Finally, I really hope the Cubs start winning, for all our sakes.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Tsa`ah played the "translation" card. :(

And why not? Christianity is after all loosely founded upon Judaism. I can't help it if the Greeks and numerous European scholars blundered translations and edited texts to better fit what they wanted to teach.


Finally, I really hope the Cubs start winning, for all our sakes.

It will take something far more powerful than the Devine to help with that.

[Hulkein]

Tsa`ah, when I look in the Bible I see the word heaven mentioned several times in Genesis, Exodus, and Deuteronomy.

As you said most of the time in Genesis it is used in the context of the skies, but there are a few passages where it is very open to interpretation as to what it means in Deuteronomy. This is the KJV, I guess it's not the same as what you use?

As for the laws that encompass all parts of Jewish life.. what is the Jewish belief if one does not follow these laws? Is it a common belief that they will still find salvation even if they disregard these laws?

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Jesae
Not when you use something so filthy as the word "cunt". I figured you could have at least come up with something a bit more decent, not to mention funny.

Like cunthair?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<If you've ever read any books on how to raise children, you'd notice a trend - that they ALL have a chapter in them regarding religion, and they ALL mention that the distinct possibility exists for your kid to go through this very phase.>>

Books happen to not always be right, and most of the time shouldn't exist.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Tsa`ah, when I look in the Bible I see the word heaven mentioned several times in Genesis, Exodus, and Deuteronomy.

As you said most of the time in Genesis it is used in the context of the skies, but there are a few passages where it is very open to interpretation as to what it means in Deuteronomy. This is the KJV, I guess it's not the same as what you use?

Oye ... it boils down to interpretation and translation.

In all of the Jewish texts only vague notions touched upon when it comes to the after-life. This is where one has to separate the idea of "heaven", the vague and abstract term to indicate where god resides and an after-life. In Christianity, with regards to the your old Testament, the two are synonymous. Never in those texts is this belief supported nor is it suggested. There are a myriad of beliefs that pertain to life after death in Judaism, from reincarnation to nothing. What you refer to as "Heaven" in the books you sited, if memory serves me right, either refers to where god lives or Olam Ha-Ba, what is to come, or the world yet to come.

In Judaism, these are not the same.

To route any references to hell ... What Christian point to as references to "hell" in our books refers to one of five entries.

Gei Hinnom, an actual location, is referred to as a place of torment. The entries in Joshua, Jeremiah, Kings, and Nehemiah refer to a valley in Hinnom where children were sacrificed to a Canaanite idol. The reference then was much the same as the Holocaust today.

Then we have the word "shaol" ... I think, that is often referenced by Christian scholars. This word and it's usage in Genesis ... again I think ... describes only the grave.

The words you are reading and translated to the term heaven, as I mentioned, refer to the place where god resides or Olam Ha-Ba.

There are other instances where the word "heaven" has been placed in Christian translation where it doesn't belong.

galgal - a whirl wind or spinning wheel

`arabah - (depending on context) can mean a desert, plain, wilderness, twilight sky.

shachaq - dust cloud, or thin cloud.

`ariyph - a mist depending on context.

shamayim - Means many things ... universe, star laden sky, and (drum roll) the throne/realm/abode of God.

You have to distinguish between the after-life and the place God chills.


As for the laws that encompass all parts of Jewish life.. what is the Jewish belief if one does not follow these laws? Is it a common belief that they will still find salvation even if they disregard these laws?

Again we encroach on notions of the after-life.

Non-Jews are not bound by the law. What happens to them, who knows. It is not our belief that good people will suffer or that God will turn his back on good people. He created us all, so why would he pick and choose favorites?

The Law is what we are supposed to live by and a Jew that shuns the law now is merely shunned by Jewish society. Then, they would be killed. What happens when they die? Dunno. They definitely will not awake in the world to come, whatever that is. Do they suffer in hell? Perhaps if they convert to Christianity. In Judaism they just don't wake.

I really don't know how to answer that.

[Hulkein]

Still informative, thanks for answering it the best you could.

My religious studies class didn't really delve too far into Jewish law seeing as we had to cover about eight religions in one semester of a 100 level gen ed class :)

[Chelle]

I am not a religious person. I do believe in God/Goddess, a greater power that exists in everything and everyone.

My greatest pet peeve are extremests in any religion. I just wish people wouldn't get so worked up over people not agreeing with their religion.

I believe one should worship whatever gives them peace in their heart, and not bring harm or insult on others doing so. Why people can't just be more tolerant of others chosen paths, is beyond me.

Personally, I enjoy hearing about all religions and it's interesting to know what their customs are.

People should just be more open minded.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
He created us all, so why would he pick and choose favorites? He sure chose the hell out of Canaan. But then, I've only read a translated version of the story. :D
And why not? Translation is an art, not a science, right? Therefore, after a certain point of technical knowledge (abba means daddy, not puppy) the "correctness" of a translation would be better described as the "agreeability", wouldn't it? You might look at the Christian translations of the Torah and reel off a list of things you find "incorrect", but art isn't correct or incorrect. You just don't find the translator's style "agreeable".

The issue of errors in translation (getting back to the technical knowledge) isn't really a strong card to play either. The Bible is constantly being reviewed for errors. As I'm typing this, some poor schlub in Rome is probably poring over an ancient manuscript, checking the translation. That (and occasional modernization efforts) is why new editions of the same Bible keep coming out.

[Tsa`ah]

Religion comes down to one thing, fear of death.

The example is prime when you follow the time-line from Judaism (no real mention of re-ward and only vague mentioning of an after-life), one just lives by the law and lives a good life, to Christianity (Salvation, Heaven, eternal life), live a good life and be the best Christian you can be and you are rewarded, don't and you fucking burn. Between these two we have the Law you live by and only the motivation of tradition to continue, and a reward/punishment system to encourage one type of behavior and dissuade another type. Then on to the Muslim faith where the rewards and punishments are further described.

I'm even less up to par on the Muslim faith so perhaps Kranar or another practicing Muslim can add to the time line.

When you are taught one thing as a child and that belief system is beat into you with the notion that only your belief is right, one tends to not even research the validity of the belief, let alone listen to an alternative voice.

This is the problem with organized religions in general (Even Jews are extremely guilty of this).

My belief is infallible so yours must be inferior or incorrect. Very few people study their religious texts or have an interest in their collective histories. Although most people that debate/discuss religion here have some knowledge of the history and language behind the texts, the common zealot only knows what preached to them. They know key passages but nothing of what lies between.

So when you have a minister of faith condemning homosexuality and using passages out of context, the audience is taking that person's word as divine word and will not likely read what lies between.

If people were to read their texts cover to cover, research the history, and learn a bit of the language, the conviction of blind faith would faultier.

Education is feared trait in many faiths. I used to shocked when I heard some rabbi or Christian minister speak out against collegiate studies. "It's a money machine ... this is the only book you need to know in life!". Then one day it dawned on me, the ignorant are easily herded.

Tsa ah, how you be so smart?

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
If people were to read their texts cover to cover, research the history, and learn a bit of the language, the conviction of blind faith would faultier. Now that's what I call understatement of effort required. :P

(quick google: there are 20 times as many sites offering Hebrew instruction as Aramaic instruction. :()

[Chelle]

:clap: Tsa'ah.

When I was a child we were in this Independant Baptist Church. They taught us *their* interpretation of the Bible. We were taught to believe that everyone else were EVIL devils, and were going to "burn in the lake of fire for all of eternity" because they didn't believe like us.

Even as a child I knew that was rubbish.

No one knows for sure about the afterlife, so best live your life peacefully without harming any living thing and you should be alright.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
He sure chose the hell out of Canaan. But then, I've only read a translated version of the story. :D

See prior post and references to Gei Hinnom.


Translation is an art, not a science, right? Therefore, after a certain point of technical knowledge (abba means daddy, not puppy) the "correctness" of a translation would be better described as the "agreeability", wouldn't it? You might look at the Christian translations of the Torah and reel off a list of things you find "incorrect", but art isn't correct or incorrect. You just don't find the translator's style "agreeable".

The issue of errors in translation (getting back to the technical knowledge) isn't really a strong card to play either. The Bible is constantly being reviewed for errors. As I'm typing this, some poor schlub in Rome is probably poring over an ancient manuscript, checking the translation. That (and occasional modernization efforts) is why new editions of the same Bible keep coming out.

You call it an art, I call it a science with much reservation to personal judgment of the translator.

When the Christian bible was canonized it was in Greek correct? The first canonized Christian text was very rushed and the scholars at the time were not well versed in Aramaic or Hebrew. There was perhaps much translation of the oral tradition and not so much attention paid to what was already inked in either of the aforementioned language.

It only gets worse when personal belief interferes with technical fact. Then consider most of the translations have only been loosely based on Hebrew and Aramaic texts and still focus on Greek texts which are wildly inaccurate.

Compound all of the above with the Hebrew language having no vowel pointers until maybe 1500 years ago and then you have everyone tripping over their personal beliefs with not much clue to the technical facts.

So your claim of it being an art would be a better claim if you added the word abstract before art.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Then one day it dawned on me, the ignorant are easily herded. :applaud: your entire post. This thought stuck out.

[Caiylania]

My question is..... if people say, only do things to get rewarded. IE: Only behave because otherwise they would burn in hell, is that true to themselves?

Its like bribing a child. I think people should be taught to do the right thing BECAUSE it is right, not because they will get a lollipop.

[Warriorbird]

Parkbandit... you can't be a real Republican without believing in God!

To contribute to the thread... it amuses incredibly that people claim to be religious fundamentalists but somehow do not follow Leviticus restrictions.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Jazuela
I don't "believe in God." I thought I was clear on that. I believe that there is something "bigger" than we are. That the universe is just too vast for there NOT to be something more - profound than human beings living on this tiny little planet tucked in some obscure corner of the cosmos.

Is it God? I dunno. I don't really care. I'm just pretty comfortable in believing it's something.

I too hold this belief that there is something out there 'bigger' than we are, but that has zero to do with religion. That "bigger" thing does not look after us, control us or have anything to do with us (that I am aware of). They simply exist.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

Originally posted by Jesae
I think every juniorhigh/highschool kid goes through the "atheist" thing but it wears off when you get older.

Uh, thanks for your condescending bullshit. I guess that explains why there are no atheists over the age of 20. I'm sick of hearing "Oh, it's just a phase" whenever someone comments on atheism.

15 years of Sunday school and church.. I began to realize that there was no God about the age of 16.

I'm almost 40 and still feel stronger than ever that I am correct.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Jesae
Because PB likes to cause trouble and watch the claws come out and the fur fly.

Bastard!

MOI??

I'm hurt. :sniffle:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Parkbandit... you can't be a real Republican without believing in God!

To contribute to the thread... it amuses incredibly that people claim to be religious fundamentalists but somehow do not follow Leviticus restrictions.

I know.. and I'm so ashamed.

Thank "God" Republicans have such good economical strategies... or I might just be a Democrat!

[Warriorbird]

Whoo hoo! Trickle down economics is sure makin' us prosper!

:P

Almost as much as giving our money to televangelists or in their hideous new form.... netevangelists.