Schwarzenegger's recollection a bit off?

[Ilvane]

Historians dispute Schwarzenegger's convention comments

VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- Austrian historians are challenging California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger for telling the Republican National Convention that he saw Soviet tanks in his homeland as a child and that he left a "Socialist" country when he moved away in 1968.

Recalling that the Soviets once occupied part of Austria in the aftermath of World War II, Schwarzenegger told the convention on Tuesday: "I saw tanks in the streets. I saw communism with my own eyes."

Historians, however, are questioning Schwarzenegger's version of postwar history -- if not his enduring popularity among Austrians who admire him for rising from a penniless immigrant to the highest official in America's most populous state.

"It's a fact -- as a child he could not have seen a Soviet tank in Styria," the southeastern province where Schwarzenegger was born and raised, historian Stefan Karner told the Vienna newspaper Kurier.

Schwarzenegger, now a naturalized U.S. citizen, was born on July 30, 1947, when Styria and the neighboring province of Carinthia belonged to the British zone. At the time, postwar Austria was occupied by the four wartime allies, which also included the United States, the Soviet Union and France.

The Soviets already had left Styria in July 1945, less than three months after the end of the war, Karner noted.

Margita Thompson, spokeswoman for Schwarzenegger, defended Schwarzenegger's speech.

"Never in there did the governor reference that the tanks were where he grew up. It was a reference to visiting Soviet-occupied Austria," she said.

In his convention address, Schwarzenegger also said: "As a kid, I saw the Socialist country that Austria became after the Soviets left" in 1955 and Austria regained its independence.

But Martin Polaschek, a law history scholar and vice rector of Graz University, told Kurier that Austria was governed by coalition governments, including the conservative People's Party and the Social Democratic Party. Between 1945 and 1970, all the nation's chancellors were conservatives -- not Socialists.

What's more, when Schwarzenegger left in 1968, Austria was run by a conservative government headed by People's Party Chancellor Josef Klaus, a staunch Roman Catholic and a sharp critic of both the Socialists and the Communists ruling in countries across the Iron Curtain.

Schwarzenegger "confuses a free country with a Socialist one," said Polaschek, referring to East European Communist officials' routine descriptions of their countries as Socialist.

Thompson said the governor was "talking about a socialistic-style of government and governing that he experienced when living in Austria."

Polaschek saw the moderate Republican governor's recollections at the convention as a tactical move. Schwarzenegger, he said, was "using the old Communist enemy image for Bush's election campaign."

"He did not speak as a historian, after all, but as a politician," Polaschek said.

Norbert Darabos, a ranking official of Austria's opposition Social Democratic Party, sharply criticized Schwarzenegger's "disdain for his former homeland."

"The Terminator is constructing a rather bizarre Austria image," he said.

But many ordinary Austrians seemed to be in a forgiving mood Friday over the gaffes.

"Maybe he has a wrong recollection -- it's so many years since he left," said Wilma Fadrany, 32, a Vienna waitress.

"There must be political reasons for such comments," she said. "You've got to tell the (convention delegates) what they want to hear in order to win them around. Politicians always talk the way it fits into their agenda."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/03/schwarzenegger.ap/index.html


oooh interesting!!

-A

[Parkbandit]

Still not as interesting as Kerry's claim he was in Cambodia during Christmas.

[kheldarin]

Not interesting.

Lame.

Boring.

You've got to be kidding me right? This is what the libs have to counter with against a kick-ass speech? Jeez.

- Arkans

[Nakiro]

:whocares:

[Ilvane]

I can just imagine if it were Kerry coming out and doing a speech like this, or some other Democratic person.

You all would be saying..um..so where are his fact checkers, etc..

:shrug: I guess I'm just tired of people misrepresenting the truth in politics. It happens on both sides, and it's kind of disheartening.

-A

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Arkans
You've got to be kidding me right? This is what the libs have to counter with against a kick-ass speech? Jeez.

- Arkans

Most intelligent people care about the truth, and not whether or not the speech was good.

[Blazing247]

Wow. I thought this was going to be something I cared about, but I was wrong.

[kheldarin]

Me too. I was like, wow, an Ahhnold post!

But pssh, it was written by a Democrat.

The girly-man sayer can't become prez anyway so he might as well waste his time inventing some really great fiction.

An actor AND a storyteller!

Just glad they don't let people like that into office of presidency when their inspiration is so greatly needed elsewhere.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
:shrug: I guess I'm just tired of people misrepresenting the truth in politics. It happens on both sides, and it's kind of disheartening.

-A

HOLY SHIT! THERE MAY BE HOPE YET!!!

This is certainly a breakthrough for you Ilvane.. and I for one am glad to have witnessed it.

Originally posted by StrayRogue

Originally posted by Arkans
You've got to be kidding me right? This is what the libs have to counter with against a kick-ass speech? Jeez.

- Arkans

Most intelligent people care about the truth, and not whether or not the speech was good.

*sigh* Fine. Then give me solid concrete proof that he never saw these things. Historical documents ect.. If such things can't be attained, it's just left wing whining, in my opinion. The main point of the speech wasn't tanks in Austria, but how he became a successful immigrant in America. AKA: NO WELFARE.

- Arkans

[StrayRogue]

Actually Arnie made a name for himself in Bodybuilding in the UK, before going to America. He was already pretty successfull. And he definately saw tanks: He used to be in the military, a tank operator in fact, until he went AWOL.

[Ilvane]

Oh and why would an AUSTRIAN historian who lives in AUSTRIA come out and say that Arnold was mistaken? Does he have a stake in the election here? Not really.

So it's not political. It's more about getting the facts correct. But I guess you don't care about that, as long as they give a good speech, right?

-A

[Artha]

The same reason people who don't live here care about things like who is elected and the Patriot Act.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Ilvane
So it's not political. It's more about getting the facts correct. But I guess you don't care about that, as long as they give a good speech, right?Unless this historian fella was around Arnold 24/7 as he grew up, this historian is pulling these "facts" right out of his ass.

[Ilvane]

Not exactly. He was saying that the "facts" were not correct, because they were not there at the time he was saying he saw them, and that the socialist were not in power at the time he left, like he said. It's pretty easy to confirm.

-A

From the article:

But Martin Polaschek, a law history scholar and vice rector of Graz University, told Kurier that Austria was governed by coalition governments, including the conservative People's Party and the Social Democratic Party. Between 1945 and 1970, all the nation's chancellors were conservatives -- not Socialists.

What's more, when Schwarzenegger left in 1968, Austria was run by a conservative government headed by People's Party Chancellor Josef Klaus, a staunch Roman Catholic and a sharp critic of both the Socialists and the Communists ruling in countries across the Iron Curtain.

[GSTamral]

Ilvane, how about pointing out how a conservative group in Austria would still be far to the left of a liberal group in America?

I mean, Europe's economy is stagnating, they cannot generate manufacturing industry in the west, they are dealing with greater than 10% unemployment in most countries, and many countries are using 35 or 32.5 hour workweeks instead of 40.

Some things, like medicine, they are far ahead of us. Education as well, as they are doing more with less, especially with the extensive use of vocational schools. But economically, they are fragile, and will not support the raise in standard of living that they plan in Eastern European countries.

Some people seem to forget that this country became great because we went AWAY from socialism. China's expansion has been extreme since they have begun to allow for privatization of industry. India's economy is exploding because they have moved away from Socialism.

[Ilvane]

Regardless, what he said was incorrect, at least admit that much.:)

-A

[GSTamral]

While I cannot confirm or deny Arnold's story, the facts would certainly portend that it did not happen the way he stated it.

But that does not take away from his speech or his persona, as he was relating a story to the people. He is an actor after all.

And for the record as well, he's done quite a bit of good in California to get his popularity as high as it is

[Parkbandit]

Personally, I think Arnold is stupid for making shit up if that is the case.. it was a nice story but it really doesn't mean shit when we are discussing the election.

How about we talk about Kerry and his claim he was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve in 1968 while under oath? How he was condemning his fellow soldiers for being there?

Oh that's right.. that would be against Kerry.. and thus obviously a lie and fabrication. :rolleye:

[imported_Kranar]

<< I guess I'm just tired of people misrepresenting the truth in politics. It happens on both sides, and it's kind of disheartening. >>

Apparantly not, because it's supposedly alright to lie about having an adulterous affair while under sworn oath.

It's no big deal afterall... right?

[Ilvane]

Like I've said a hundred times before, there is a difference between lying about a personal affair and lying and having it be a life or death situation.

Sure, Arnold's wasn't *important* but he *was* lying..he's an up and comer in the party according to the administration too.

-A

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Like I've said a hundred times before, there is a difference between lying about a personal affair and lying and having it be a life or death situation.

Sure, Arnold's wasn't *important* but he *was* lying..he's an up and comer in the party according to the administration too.

-A

Wait a sec now.. let me make sure I understand you correctly Ilvane..

Your belief is that it worse for a Governor of California saying he was in Austria as a boy and seeing Soviet tanks than it is a President lying under oath about an affair he was having?

[Artha]

It's because Clinton is a democrat, so nothing he does is wrong and you're just a brainwashed puppet of the rich. Duh.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Sure, Arnold's wasn't *important* but he *was* lying..Right. According to some historian that nobody has ever heard of who was working on faulty information. And because Arnold obviously would make something up like that, because he knows that once elected, people never become less popular.

Reread what his spokeswoman said plz.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Like I've said a hundred times before, there is a difference between lying about a personal affair and lying and having it be a life or death situation.-A

.... What will it take for you to realize that it has been determined multiple times that Bush did not LIE in the sense of he didn't know there weren't WMDs.


Ilvane - "Mom, where are my car keys which you used?'
Mom - "They are on the kitchen table."

Ilvane goes to the kitchen table, no keys.

Ilvane - "THEY AREN'T THERE YOU FUCKING LIAR, WTF STOP LYING TO ME."
Ilvane's brother Johnny - "Oh, I moved them, here they are."
Ilvane - "MOM STILL LIED YOU FUCKING BITCH LIAR !!11'

[CrystalTears]

:lol2: Damn you, Hulkein. Kix everywhere.

[Snapp]

Okay I :heart: Ilvane, but I just choked laughing at that Hulkein. :rofl:

[Scott]

Yeah, I got to give that to Hulkein. Sometimes it takes a good example to get the point accross.... Well done.

[Snapp]

And PS. I don't agree with Hulkein. I still think Bush is a lying sack of shit. :) Just thought the analogy was funny.

[Hulkein]

Honestly Snapp I respect if you or anyone else says 'I believe he is a lying sack of shit', but when Ilvane says matter of factly 'HE LIED ABOUT WAR' as if this is some sort of public knowledge, it is just wrong judging by the facts.

If you look at it objectively as you would if you were a juror in a trial, you simply look at the facts. The facts all say he didn't purposely mislead anyone.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Snapp
And PS. I don't agree with Hulkein. I still think Bush is a lying sack of shit. :) Just thought the analogy was funny.

Bush didn't give the information to Congress.. who also agreed.

Also the world believed that Iraq did have WMDs.. but hey, it's much more fun to believe Bush is Satan and everything he does is evil.

Whatever blows your skirt up.

[Snapp]

Please don't start spouting your blowhole at me, PB. I've read and heard enough of both sides and I stated my opinion.

[CrystalTears]

I don't believe saying Bush lied is an opinion though. It sounds to me like an incorrect fact and one that needs to be nipped in the bud since there are plenty of other things to be upset with Bush about.

Saying he lied about the WMD, something that the world agreed upon and was not the first president addressed to about, is just not right.

[Ravenstorm]

That would be incorrect. There was plenty of evidence that was ignored showing that Iraq no longer had WMD. And plenty of countries of the world were not ocnvinced they had any. You do recall all the ones who opposed our attacking Iraq because there wasn't enough evidence?

If Bush or his flunkies 'encouraged' the CIA to give him the report he wanted, that is for all intents and purposes, a lie. And that is a point that the 9/11 Commission has not addressed yet and won't until after the election.

However at least one FBI analyst who was interviewed is on record as stating that he knew what they wanted to hear and that what he put in his report wouldn't actually make any difference.

But, of course, all this has been said many times and ignored by the Bush supporters. Gods, but I'll be glad once the election is over.

Raven

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Snapp
Please don't start spouting your blowhole at me, PB. I've read and heard enough of both sides and I stated my opinion.

[Hulkein]

Raven, forget the CIA. You still have the British Intelligence telling you he has them and you have Valdimir Putin telling you he has them.

<<You do recall all the ones who opposed our attacking Iraq because there wasn't enough evidence?>>

You expect the US to listen to France who is cashing in with trade with Iraq but you cannot listen to the reports which have said Bush didn't purposely mislead anyone? That's convenient. Follow the 'plenty of other countries' advice and wait until there is evidence of Bush KNOWING there was not WMD in Iraq before calling it fact.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
That would be incorrect. There was plenty of evidence that was ignored showing that Iraq no longer had WMD. And plenty of countries of the world were not ocnvinced they had any. You do recall all the ones who opposed our attacking Iraq because there wasn't enough evidence?

If Bush or his flunkies 'encouraged' the CIA to give him the report he wanted, that is for all intents and purposes, a lie. And that is a point that the 9/11 Commission has not addressed yet and won't until after the election.

However at least one FBI analyst who was interviewed is on record as stating that he knew what they wanted to hear and that what he put in his report wouldn't actually make any difference.

But, of course, all this has been said many times and ignored by the Bush supporters. Gods, but I'll be glad once the election is over.

Raven

You and me both!

Couple things.

Please name the countries that did not believe, prior to war, that Iraq didn't have WMDs. Please do NOT include such countries as France and Russia who were profiting from the UN Oil for Food program. Also do not include any muslim countries that had an obvious bias.

Also, since the 9-11 commission hasn't answered the question as to whether Bush pressured anyone or not.. yet you've come to the conclusion he has due to ONE so called FBI analyst? I'm certain that more than one has said they weren't pressured.. but hey.. it doesn't work with your conspiracy theory.. so we just won't listen to that... will we.

[Snapp]

When ever did I say Kerry should be trusted? Oh that's right I didn't. I think they're both lying shitbags, if that makes you feel better. It's politics, comes with the territory.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Snapp
When ever did I say Kerry should be trusted? Oh that's right I didn't. I think they're both lying shitbags, if that makes you feel better. It's politics, comes with the territory.

Heh.. actually, I was just trying to put something on that picture. Who the hell uses the term "Blowhole"?

[CrystalTears]

Michael Douglas said it as president in the movie "An American President", one of my favorite movies lately. If he was on the ballot I'd vote for him instead. :D

[Tsa`ah]

Clinton should have been locked up for lying under oath. Arnold should be re-called for being an idiot and lying to make himself seem more of a survivor in an effort to improve his image.

Liars are a dime a dozen outside politics, but inside political arenas you can't throw a pebble without hitting 8 or 9 liars a pop.

Yes it's deplorable and sad, but this is what our political machine has produced. It hasn't changed much in the last couple hundred years and it's not likely to change in the next 500.

Kerry, Bush, Arnold ... take your pick. They're all liars, you just have to weed out who is the most despicable liar and who's lies are killing people.

Clinton getting a hummer and being in denial, not good, but not bad. It only got bad when the press focused on his spooge stains instead of the bombings over seas that it got bad.

Does Arnold's lie compare? Not even close. He just looks like a fucking idiot for telling it when it was something so easily called.

Kerry's lies? I'm sure each and everyone of Kerry's is as deplorable as any other politicians, but Kerry didn't order a mass invasion into Iraq ... He only voted for it apparently.

Bush's? Sickening to say the least.

Fucking bi-partisanship gives me a headache.

[Ilvane]

I'd like to see the proof offered that Kerry was lying.

The guys on his boat confirmed what happened to him. Just because he opposed the war doesn't mean he is a liar about things that happened to him there.

-A

Oh, another factcheck article. http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=244

I hope you at least read it!

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
I'd like to see the proof offered that Kerry was lying.

The guys on his boat confirmed what happened to him. Just because he opposed the war doesn't mean he is a liar about things that happened to him there.

-A

Oh, another factcheck article. http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=244

I hope you at least read it!

Again Ilvane.. I doubt that Kerry is as perfect as you try to make him out to be.. and I doubt that he was the sniveling coward that the Swift vets claim him to be. I would imagine that it's somewhere in the middle.

I understand that.. my issue with you is that you never do.

[Ilvane]

I never said he was perfect, I just don't think he was lying. If I found Bush to be honest most of the time, I would admit it. Unfortunately he breaks campaign promises all the time.

Oh, and did you see what the medicare premium raises are going to be this year? Way to take care of the seniors!! (http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/09/04/medicare.premiums.ap/index.html)

Ugh, I really don't like Bush, for all the right reasons.

-A

[Parkbandit]

I've yet to find Kerry to be an honest person.. but hey, I guess we will never agree on this.

I trust Bush and am thankful that we get to have him for 4 more years.

[Ilvane]

I'm just curious, by why do you trust him? I don't really think he's been a very good leader. I'm honestly asking you that.

I think Kerry has shown in his time in politics and after the war that he can be a leader. That's just my thought.

-A

[Artha]

Ugh, I really don't like Bush, for all the right reasons.

You don't like Bush because he's a republican and you're unwilling to give him the same allowances you do democrats.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
I'm just curious, by why do you trust him? I don't really think he's been a very good leader. I'm honestly asking you that.

I think Kerry has shown in his time in politics and after the war that he can be a leader. That's just my thought.

-A

I've yet to see a reason that you believe Kerry would be a good leader... hell, even a somewhat effective leader.

I agree with Bush on many things. I honestly believe that what he did in Afganistan and Iraq was in the best interest of protecting the American people. I believe in him and I trust him. It's not a blind trust either because he is a Republican. I was younger and I didn't have that same faith in Reagan.

I simply believe Bush is the right President for this time.

[Ilvane]

I agree that what he did in Afghanistan was the right thing, because we were going after the person who was the leader responsible for the attack on 9/11. Where I think he went wrong was when he went after Iraq. If he had said we were going there to take care of Saddam, because he needs to be gone, because he is dangerous, it would have been honest. Instead he gave info that they had weapons of mass destruction, and that they were trying to get things from Niger. Prior to his speech, he was told that the Niger information was incorrect, and that the intelligence was old, and that it was questionable. He chose to use that anyway. I would have even voted for the war like Kerry did, if I had been given the information they were given.

So, now we are there, in Iraq, with no plan to get out. What exactly does Bush do that makes him a great leader?

I mean, right after 9/11 the way he calmed the nation, I was even thinking that I could vote for him..then he messed everything up with this Iraq mess.

-A

[Parkbandit]

Intelligence is not an exact science. We don't get phone taps from Saddam saying "Hello, I have WMDs and I plan on using them". You get bits and pieces of information and a large team of people and computers try to theorize what it all means.

I have no issue with you saying the war in Iraq was a poor decision.. hey, that's your choice. I simply don't believe that he purposely deceived anyone so that he could take the country over. What was the motive? I've heard some pretty far fetched stories like "He did it to finish what his Father didn't" "He did it because Saddam threatened his Father" "He did it to get their oil" "He did it because he likes war" "He did it to secure his 2004 election"

A President's toughest decision will always be to go to war. I agree that Afganistan was a no brainer. I also believe that Bush felt that there was a threat from Iraq who had spent the past 12 years avoiding the UN Resolutions to bring the country into compliance with the rest of the world.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Ilvane
I would have even voted for the war like Kerry did, if I had been given the information they were given.So it's ok for Kerry to believe information he's given, but not ok for Bush? :?:

[Valthissa]

Text of he said:

When I was a boy, the Soviets occupied part of Austria. I saw their tanks in the streets. I saw communism with my own eyes. I remember the fear we had when we had to cross into the Soviet sector. Growing up, we were told, "Don't look the soldiers in the eye. Look straight ahead." It was a common belief that Soviet soldiers could take a man out of his own car and ship him off to the Soviet Union as slave labor.

My family didn't have a car -- but one day we were in my uncle's car. It was near dark as we came to a Soviet checkpoint. I was a little boy, I wasn't an action hero back then, and I remember how scared I was that the soldiers would pull my father or my uncle out of the car and I'd never see him again. My family and so many others lived in fear of the Soviet boot. Today, the world no longer fears the Soviet Union and it is because of the United States of America!


It seems he was pretty clearly refering to soviet controlled areas, doesn't it? Places he visited as a child, right? The AP really seems to have really stretched to produce this article.

C/Valth - hoping that the candidates will find time to talk about something more meaningful to talk about before I have to walk into the booth and pull the lever for one of these losers.