I can never decide....

[tallkris3]

I've got 1200 TPs saved up. Where would you spend them?

Giantman Warrior, Capped

Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 390 290
Shield Use.........................| 403 303
Combat Maneuvers...................| 302 202
Blunt Weapons......................| 302 202
Ambush.............................| 150 50
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 235 135
Physical Fitness...................| 403 303
Dodging............................| 302 202
Arcane Symbols.....................| 150 50
Magic Item Use.....................| 150 50
Harness Power......................| 30 6
Survival...........................| 201 101
Perception.........................| 202 102
Climbing...........................| 160 60
Swimming...........................| 201 101
First Aid..........................| 201 101
Trading............................| 201 101

[Archigeek]

I would finish armor, and then dump the rest of the points into MIU and Arcane Symbols, assuming you use those frequently. The added duration makes it worth it to me to max out those skills. That will just about use up all your points. Alternatively, you could train in spells, and get 7 ranks of lesser spiritual for a slightly lower cost.

Other options?: Pick up a second combat style such as brawling or hurling. Your build looks pretty solid though, for a good OHB warrior.

[Tgo01]

I say find a way to give the points to me.

[Suppressed Poet]

Definitely finish armor since you are almost there. I'd say the next obvious choice is 3x dodge. You probably don't need much more in DS since you use shield, and depending on shield size the gains would be minimal, but reality is you are running out of things to train in. Dodge should keep you busy for a long while.

[tallkris3]

Definitely finish armor since you are almost there. I'd say the next obvious choice is 3x dodge. You probably don't need much more in DS since you use shield, and depending on shield size the gains would be minimal, but reality is you are running out of things to train in. Dodge should keep you busy for a long while.

Dodge always looms, but 4040 TPs for another 40 DS that I don't really need is so daunting.

The only thing with finishing armor is I don't gain anything from going beyond 290. I stopped at 290 cause that got me the last armor skill. What does the last 13 ranks get me?

[Tgo01]

What does the last 13 ranks get me?

Aesthetics.

[tallkris3]

Aesthetics.

Maybe once I finish dodge then I'll look at spending 208 MTP on aesthetics.

[Ruh]

TWC

[Archigeek]

What it gets you is some added maneuver benefit maybe? Oh, and aesthetics. I did the same thing as you, and stopped at 290 for quite a while, then finished it about a year ago or so. You'll gain some armor skill points!

You are right though, that the third rank in dodge is killer, especially if you're a shield user, which you are. I finished that slog right before I did the last 13 ranks of armor. It's hell and progress is so slow. The good news would be that you could sink the 1200 points into it and boom, you're 25% of the way there. It was perhaps the least satisfying thing I've ever trained in though, but I was at a point where it had to happen.

My suggestion though, if you want a bigger project and don't want to add another combat style, and don't like my earlier suggestions, is to max out MOC. MOC is a nice one to take in chunks, as it has set thresholds, which you obviously know since you stopped at one. With 1200 points you could probably finish MOC, or get close at least. I still think you should consider brawling or hurling or TWC. As you might suspect, I'm a big fan of hurling.

[Whirlin]

16 MTP per .4 Redux Points for armor use. You can get all 13 remaining Ranks!
10 MTP per .4 Redux Ponts for Ambush. You can get an additional 90 Ranks!
22 MTP per .4 Redux Points for MoC. You can get an additional 54 Ranks!
38 MTP per .4 Redux Points for Dodging. You can get an additional 31 Ranks!
6 MTP per .4 Redux point for starting to pick up TWC. You can get 150 Ranks! That's only 624 more MTP to cap it!

I'd say TWC, not a new weapon type, and just pimp out blunt weapons... because you can, and that's your style.

[Buckwheet]

I like Whirlin's breakdown, but I would sink it into dodge.

[stormcrow]

Dodge will be a long slow haul. But it's worth it.

[tallkris3]

My suggestion though, if you want a bigger project and don't want to add another combat style, and don't like my earlier suggestions, is to max out MOC. MOC is a nice one to take in chunks, as it has set thresholds, which you obviously know since you stopped at one. With 1200 points you could probably finish MOC, or get close at least. I still think you should consider brawling or hurling or TWC. As you might suspect, I'm a big fan of hurling.

I would go the MIU/AS route but right now I don't use to many trinkets, had I won any of the X a day items at RTCF I was going to bump both up to singled but that didn't happen so I wouldn't get much out of that extra bonus based off where/how I hunt today.

I've given serious thought to the MOC route as I just need another 30 or so TPs to get to the sixth swing. Stuff rarely lives past the 5th hit, would mean nothing would live past the 6th.


16 MTP per .4 Redux Points for armor use. You can get all 13 remaining Ranks!
10 MTP per .4 Redux Ponts for Ambush. You can get an additional 90 Ranks!
22 MTP per .4 Redux Points for MoC. You can get an additional 54 Ranks!
38 MTP per .4 Redux Points for Dodging. You can get an additional 31 Ranks!
6 MTP per .4 Redux point for starting to pick up TWC. You can get 150 Ranks! That's only 624 more MTP to cap it!

I'd say TWC, not a new weapon type, and just pimp out blunt weapons... because you can, and that's your style.

Very interesting way to look at it, never thought of it like that. I've never done TWC, I wonder what my defense would be in offensive. With a 7x shield and a standard set of spells I tend to sit around 480 in offensive.


Dodge will be a long slow haul. But it's worth it.

I know it's the smart decision I just don't know if I can do it.

I had given some fleeting thought to Precp/FA/Survival.

I've also wondered if I got up to singled in ambush how much that would improve me hitting the War Griffin's eyes, if any.

[Buckwheet]

You could always train in something you find useful on your way to 3x doge and just fixskill.

[Archigeek]

3x dodge isn't that big of a benefit for a shield user. The gain is small, and the cost is huge. This is why I suggest doing something more useful first, like MOC or a second weapon style, or MIU/Arcane Symbols. If you're not using the last of the three, there's little point in training further than you have. You could buy yourself a nice returning hammer and see how you like hurling, or you could go ahead and do the MOC. Also, for MOC, don't forget its value for FoF. If you go hunt the scatter for example, it's not that hard to get killed if a Fetish Master decides go to on a doll making binge and casts that spell 3x in a row. Suddenly you're facing 16 foes, and if you're prone or otherwise unable to make a tactical retreat, you can pretty quickly end up dead.

When I finally got around to 3x dodge, I had put it off to the point where there was little else I could do that I felt added much value. When I did it, I used a method that was a hybrid of what Buck is suggesting: I loaded up useful skills with a luxury of ranks and enjoyed those for a while, then began to migrate them down to threshold levels, all the while beginning to sink points into the third rank of dodge. This made about the first 25-30 ranks go a little bit faster. Then I slogged through the middle chunk, occasionally switching to something else because the slog sucked, and then when I had about 20 ranks left, I cut a bunch of skills to bare bones and fix skilled and was done with it. It's 3.4 million exp basically, so it will take a while.

Also, regarding using redux points generated as a gauge, it's pretty much a moot point, as the gain in redux once you're as far along as you are is so small as to not really even be measurable.

Good luck in whatever you decide. -Kerl

[Latrinsorm]

How much is the E in EBP hampered by using a shield, if at all? Did anyone ever figure that out? They said, glancing furtively but meaningfully at Mark.

[Whirlin]

Really Latrin? I'm kinda hurt that you think only Mark would be able to answer that :(

You're multiply your skill by .83 with full plate
Additional multiplier of .54 for a tower shield
.62 for a large shield
.7 for a Medium shield
Multiplier of .75 for Offensive stance
but then a 1.5 multiplier for all

So, 100 Dodge in offensive with a tower shield
(100*.83) = 83 after armor hindrance
trunc(83 *.54) = 44 after armor + shield hindrance
Trunc(44 *.75) = 33 after Armor + shield hindrance in offensive
Roundup(33 *1.5) = 50 DS in offensive from 100 ranks of Dodge w/ shield

[Whirlin]

I'll do the maths out later for what your TWC defense would be if you wanted to pursue that.

[tallkris3]

How much is the E in EBP hampered by using a shield, if at all? Did anyone ever figure that out? They said, glancing furtively but meaningfully at Mark.

Where you going for straight up evade % here or DS? If it's evade % I'm pretty sure they said 1x vs like level is 5%, 2x is 10%, 3x is 15%, so I'd gain 5% chance to straight out evade an attack.

The more I read the more I think on it the more I lean toward MOC.

But I do like the idea of working on dodge a bit then fix skilling to finish out dodge and getting the other stuff back, never thought of that.

I would get a little more then 50 DS out of the dodge since I use a large shield. While a 530 DS in stance offensive sounds sexy it's kinda overkill, but I guess we are at the overkill stage in the game.

Thanks for the advice folks!

[Archigeek]

Overkill is the new black. Wear it, while the corpses look up at you with envy.

[Donquix]

i'd 303 armor because damn it 303/202/101 just looks pretty. Then probably do some of the secondaries that are relatively cheap like survival. Because i assume you aren't having trouble hunting at all so, becoming even more of a wrecking machine is a drop in the bucket, but some QOL changes from being able to skin and i dunno...hunt the glacier for 3 hours without taking wind damage if you wanted to? why not?

you could also be good guy capped warrior and start maxing out HP and mana share and bequeath your manly mana on the sissy finger wagglers.


As you might suspect, I'm a big fan of hurling.

Hurling requires a large investment to make it shine, of silvers not tps :|

[Latrinsorm]

Really Latrin? I'm kinda hurt that you think only Mark would be able to answer that :(Not DS, you Christendom-invading Moop. Outright Evasion, as in the EBP system. F--- it, write etc.
Where you going for straight up evade % here or DS? If it's evade % I'm pretty sure they said 1x vs like level is 5%, 2x is 10%, 3x is 15%, so I'd gain 5% chance to straight out evade an attack.The former. I also have a clear and distinct memory of them saying that, but what they say may not necessarily be the case, especially considering Whirlin's point about how severely armor/shield punishes Dodge DS.

5% more evasion sounds pretty sweet when considering things like Thunga flares (and no Thunder Shields).
you could also be good buy capped warrior and start maxing out HP and mana share and bequeath your manly mana on the sissy finger wagglers.You look like a wizard viz dat silly grin on your face.
When do men have silly grins? In orgasm.
Therefore warriors are celibate. Celebrate Celebrex.

[Archigeek]

Hurling requires a large investment to make it shine, of silvers not tps :|

True that. But this has always been the biggest hurdle for warriors. We are the most gear-cost-intensive class there is to play. Hurling gear is high end gear, and you get what you pay for.

He has lot's of choices though. Good luck deciding.

[Donquix]

True that. But this has always been the biggest hurdle for warriors. We are the most gear-cost-intensive class there is to play. Hurling gear is high end gear, and you get what you pay for.

He has lot's of choices though. Good luck deciding.

indeed, and worth it. Just something to consider. Want a secondary weapon style other than hurling? 10-20m investment or less and you have a great option. Hurling? Best I can do is 70m. Reverse pawn star.

[Lulfas]

With that kind of dodge/armor/shield use, what size of shield do you use?

[Jeril]

I vote for getting 2x in trading :D It has no real mechanical benefit but that is an extra 8-9% you get from trading and with as much buy/selling one tends to do it adds up nicely over time.

[Archigeek]

It does indeed add up over time, especially if you hunt a lot.

[tallkris3]

With that kind of dodge/armor/shield use, what size of shield do you use?

Large, on a pure DS only value my DS is 1-2 points higher with a large.

Haven't dug into the numbers on changes in EBP between the two shield sizes.

[Whirlin]

Ok... I maths it out.
Tower Shield yields 329 DS (evade, block, parry total)
Large Shield yields 330 DS (evade, block, parry total)
Medium Shield yields 351 DS (evade, block, parry total, assumed 3 ranks in Shield Swiftness)
Medium Shield yields 329 DS (evade, block, parry total, no shield swiftness)
TWC Yields 252 DS (Evade, Parry Total)

All in offensive, TWC assumes 202 ranks (eventually)

If you were to get 303 Dodge Ranks, the gap between TWC and Shield would only be 32 DS

All above are done out in Offensive, assuming 0 stat mods, because I'm lazy.

[Jeril]

What kind of shield enchant are you using for those numbers though? And you probably did, but had you also included the AP of plate in your calculations for dodge?

[tallkris3]

Medium Shield yields 351 DS (evade, block, parry total, assumed 3 ranks in Shield Swiftness)
Medium Shield yields 329 DS (evade, block, parry total, no shield swiftness)
If you were to get 303 Dodge Ranks, the gap between TWC and Shield would only be 32 DS


Interesting on swiftness... Ill most likely stick to a large since I own the 3 slot fusion large shield and it should be 7x in 2 months or so.

The DS difference with twc is shockingly small at 3x dodge not counting shield enchant assuming that wasnt factored in. Now if I only had the 5800 TPs saved up to 2x TWC and get to 3x dodge.

[Whirlin]

Sorry, that was assuming 7x shield, and 7x weapons... no enchant on the armor though.

[Whirlin]

What kind of shield enchant are you using for those numbers though? And you probably did, but had you also included the AP of plate in your calculations for dodge?
I did not.. That moves it from -17% Dodge up to -11% dodge (yay rounding)
Fortunately, I save my work! (yay excel)


Ok... I maths it out.
Tower Shield yields 329 DS (evade, block, parry total) Fixed to 334 DS
Large Shield yields 330 DS (evade, block, parry total) Fixed to 337 DS
Medium Shield yields 351 DS (evade, block, parry total, assumed 3 ranks in Shield Swiftness) Fixed to 362 DS
Medium Shield yields 329 DS (evade, block, parry total, no shield swiftness) Fixed to 338 DS
TWC Yields 252 DS (Evade, Parry Total) Fixed to 265

All in offensive, TWC assumes 202 ranks (eventually)

If you were to get 303 Dodge Ranks:
Tower Shield yields 390 DS (evade, block, parry total)
Large Shield yields 400 DS (evade, block, parry total)
Medium Shield yields 446 DS (evade, block, parry total, assumed 3 ranks in Shield Swiftness)
Medium Shield yields 410 DS (evade, block, parry total, no shield swiftness)
TWC Yields 366 DS (Evade, Parry Total)


All above are done out in Offensive, assuming 0 stat mods, because I'm lazy.
7x Weapons, 7x Shield, 0x Armor (cause that'd be constant)

[Roblar]

I'll have to check these out, because I see a larger (than my shield enchant) drop, at 2x twc, 3x dodge, 3x shield even before I added swiftness. Also armor overtrained 3x armor

And medium works best for me for offensive DS, evenly trained between dodge and shield (in plate).

[Roblar]

Interesting on swiftness...

And I'm pleased with these results..

[Whirlin]

The problem with Swiftness is that there are a lot of good shield maneuvers for Large and Tower Shields that you can't get with medium shield... and from a CMAN-style perspective, you get a huge bonus with a bigger shield. It really depends on if you want to use your shield offensively, or defensively! Surprisingly, the larger the shield, the more offensively built (weird, huh?).

I believe there are also very big implications towards the Block % dependent on shield size. However, that begs another question regarding: How much do you care about DS?
If you don't care about DS at all, and want to tank it as a form of defense, than a high block rate would have more substantial returns.
If DS is your primary defense, and you love it, and you want it to move in with you for a steady, long term relationship, then you want to maximize it, and block rate doesn't really matter.

[Archigeek]

We need to come up with an advanced statistic like WAR in baseball. We'll call it MPD (Misses + Defense, or EBP+D): and it's a ratio where 1% EBP = .1, and each DS = .01. Or something like that. So 5% misses is equal in value to 50 DS. We could add a level component as a multiplier, where level/100 = the multiplier, or something.

[Shaps]

I'd suggest capping MIU/AS first. Then dodge. Then TWC.