Fixstating My Sorcerer [Archive] - The Gemstone IV Players' Corner

Wheelerm

08-28-2013, 08:34 AM

These were his stats at level 0:

Strength (STR): 50
Constitution (CON): 40
Dexterity (DEX): 50
Agility (AGI): 60
Discipline (DIS): 80
Aura (AUR): 90
Logic (LOG): 80
Intuition (INT): 60
Wisdom (WIS): 90
Influence (INF): 60

These are his stats now:

Name: XXXXXX Race: Dark Elf Profession: Sorcerer (shown as: Dissembler)
Gender: Male Age: 81 Expr: 1187014 Level: 32
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 56 (3) ... 56 (3)
Constitution (CON): 50 (-5) ... 50 (-5)
Dexterity (DEX): 66 (18) ... 66 (18)
Agility (AGI): 70 (15) ... 70 (15)
Discipline (DIS): 90 (10) ... 90 (10)
Aura (AUR): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Logic (LOG): 90 (20) ... 90 (20)
Intuition (INT): 70 (15) ... 70 (15)
Wisdom (WIS): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Influence (INF): 70 (5) ... 70 (5)
Mana: 110 Silver: 0

You know, now that I think about it...I didn't actually allocate his stats when I rolled him, I used the quick gen option and let the game place his stats. I also didn't know at that time that I had the option to move stats around in the first 30-days, so I never touched them.

Anyhow, I have done enough research on these forums and on KP to know that these stats are horrible...I just don't know how to maximize them exactly.

So, the problems I'm having...

I say I rely on wracking because I am forced to underhunt by at least 7 levels, so I don't really gain enough experience to fry on the 110 mana pool I have, but with wracking and 10 spirit points, I can get 330 mana and that is enough to allow me to get fried. He can't really take a hit all that well, but his real problem is I don't think his CS or TD is high enough for his level. I realize a lot of this has to do with his training, but my research seemed to indicate that his stat placement might have some bearing on this as well. For completeness, I'll go ahead and post his training, too. I was planning to do that later after I had his stats straightened out, but since I get a fixskills along with the fixstat, I might as well post it all here and get as much advice as possible.

XXXXX (at level 32), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name Current| Current
Bonus | Ranks
Armor Use................................| 40 8
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 15 3
Physical Fitness.........................| 126 33
Arcane Symbols........................| 126 33
Magic Item Use.........................| 126 33
Spell Aiming.............................| 166 66
Harness Power..........................| 126 33
Elemental Mana Control.............| 126 33
Spirit Mana Control....................| 126 33
Sorcerous Lore - Demonology........| 40 8
Sorcerous Lore - Necromancy........| 105 25
Survival...................................| 74 16
Perception...............................| 78 17
Climbing..................................| 96 22
Swimming................................| 96 22
First Aid....................................| 74 16
Trading.....................................| 30 6

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 20

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 14

Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 38
Training Points: 232 Phy 0 Mnt (234 Phy converted to Mnt)
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

It should be noted that I still have my annual fixskill available, so that might make things a little easier.

Here is his attack on a tree spirit (level 26). This is the place where I ordinarily hunt.

You channel at a tree spirit.
CS: +178 - TD: +88 + CvA: +25 + d100: +31 == +146
Warding failed!
Target staggered by strong strike.
... 10 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)

And here is the tree spirit attacking me:

A tree spirit gestures at you!
CS: +146 - TD: +182 + CvA: +12 + d100: +47 - -5 == +28
Warded off!

If it weren't for the ranger resistance on my armor, I'd be dead after this hit (I have died repeatedly from this before the ranger resistance):

The spirit whispers with a sinister voice carried on the wind!
A tree spirit gestures at you!
The ground beneath your feet begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 10 points of damage!
Light strike to your abdomen.
Some supple dark grey leathers with a magnificent drake tooled on the left breast partially deflects the onslaught of the fiery attack.
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to right leg. Gonna need lots of butter.
You are knocked to the ground!
You are stunned for 3 rounds!
Some supple dark grey leathers with a magnificent drake tooled on the left breast partially deflects the onslaught of the fiery attack.
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to right arm. Gonna need lots of butter.
The ground then quickly cools.
!SPR>
The spirit whispers with a sinister voice carried on the wind!
A tree spirit tries to ensnare you!
Unable to focus clearly, you blindly block the attack!
!SPR>stance def
You are still stunned.

caelric

08-28-2013, 09:09 AM

If your aura and wisdom are already at 100, your CS is as high as it goes, for your level and training. The only way to increase it is train in more sorc base, but more importantly, get your minor elemental up to level so you have the full benefit of 425. Right now, you don't even have 425, which is hurting your CS a lot. Plus, you will be able to get 430 which will help your DS.

Getting minor spirit to 120 will help with TD and DS, but most important for you, right now, is minor elemental at level. Once you get that, try and keep your sorc base at level +21, but thats not as important as getting the 400's up.

As for tree spirit boil earth, well, yeah. One of the more deadly, and hard to defend against, spells in the game. Hunt something else.

Astron

08-28-2013, 09:57 AM

This is my recommendation for your consideration.

Armor Use................................| 40 8
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 15 3 drop to ZERO
Physical Fitness.........................| 126 33 keep at 1x, if you're engaging in monsters with cman maneuvers
Arcane Symbols........................| 126 33
Magic Item Use.........................| 126 33
Spell Aiming.............................| 166 66 lower to 1x
Harness Power..........................| 126 33
Elemental Mana Control.............| 126 33lower to 0.5x
Spirit Mana Control....................| 126 33lower to 0.5x
Sorcerous Lore - Demonology........| 40 8
Sorcerous Lore - Necromancy........| 105 25
Survival...................................| 74 16go to ZERO
Perception...............................| 78 17up to 1x
Climbing..................................| 96 22can be 0.5x
Swimming................................| 96 22can be 0.5x
First Aid....................................| 74 16why? you have sign of staunching; go to zero
Trading.....................................| 30 6go to zero

I'm a big fan of CS. Max your sorcerer ranks to 21+, and keep going beyond 21. Every spell rank gives you 0.5 CS up to 60 sorceror ranks above level.

Focus on maximizing your 425 bonus. My advise to you is maximize CS and maximize necromancy. Why necromancy? Pain (711). Not all creatures can be stunned with 706, but everything can be immobilized with 711. The spells I used most of the time are 705, 706, 711, and 717. And yes, I enjoyed a few focused implosion but I want treasure. Now I'm reminiscing the golden days of 719.

Go 1x PF to help against CMAN attacks.

caelric

08-28-2013, 10:04 AM

Mostly agree with above. I would probably get 10 ranks of survival, and leave it at that, rather than go to zero ranks.

For your mana controls, leave one of them at 24 (probably spirit) and get one to 30 ranks. Then, when you get to 39th level, get EMC up to 40. Repeat at 49th, etc... This maximizes the benefits of mana return, without getting ranks that are useless (mana return bonus happens every 10 ranks for your higher ranking mana control, and every 20 ranks for your lower ranking mana control)

For spell aiming, I would either get 2x, or not bother. 1x in spell aiming is not going to help you much. For your level, I would probably recommend 0 ranks in spell aiming, because most of the bolts you can cast are mana intensive. Unless you want to go the wizard wand route, in which case, max out spell aiming at 2x.

Wheelerm

08-28-2013, 10:56 AM

All right...I'll keep all that in mind when I get ready to retrain. As far as 2x spell aiming goes, it's a cheap skill that adds to the number of magic ranks needed to use runestaves correctly, and I totally agree that it should be 2x or nothing. The mana controls Caelric pointed out are a good point and I will correct those accordingly. The sorcerer circle at level+21 is a great point as well. I will correct that, too.

However, first thing's first...the stats. It seems that INT and INF are pretty much useless for sorcerers, so if I were going to tank two stats I should think it would be those two. The stat cruncher spit out some numbers, which I extended to Level 35 and Level 70 with the Tsoran Spreadsheet. Are the following stats good for these benchmarks, keeping in mind that I am almost at level 35 now? Therefore, the Level 35 stats are the ones I'll have at this moment after using the fixstat.

Level 0/Level 35/Level 70

STR: 89/93/97
CON: 90/96/100
DEX: 59/76/88
AGI: 62/73/84
DIS: 70/81/93
AUR: 86/99/100
LOG: 70/83/95
INT: 21/48/64
WIS: 92/100/100
INF: 21/48/64

Allereli

08-28-2013, 11:10 AM

if you don't want to be boiled, don't let them cast. use 703. the advice on pain was sound as well.

Use wands/rods to max your hunting ability. I'm happy to imbed a bunch for you, many player shops sell good ones (~90 mana) cheap. Twilight Hall usually has a charging wizard working at the Magic Item Mixer in the Landing tree house if you want wizard/arcane wands charged. 3rd Thursdays of every month at 10pm eastern.

I would keep your spell aim 2x if you bolt. If you bolt, use curse of the star. Caelric is right, 2x or nothing.

I would keep EMC/SMC at 1x as well for mana pulse and spellup benefits. But if you miss a rank here and there it's no big deal.

I agree with dropping all trading and multi opponent combat.

Personally I like to skin, it's great money, but there aren't many of us that do it. If you keep FA/survival I strongly recommend making yourself a fusion dagger with FA/Survival orbs.

Whirlin

08-28-2013, 11:14 AM

I completely disagree with you. The problem really isn't your stats, it's your training. Astron's recommendations were pretty much spot on. Spell aiming is subjective, as it completely depends on focused implosion utilization, race, and general hunting strategy, however, I believe in other threads I've already highlighted the difference from a DS and CS perspective, overall, I have not found spell aiming worthwhile.

The other problem is what you hunt. I'm not sure why you would hunt tree spirits as a sorcerer. In comparison to all classes, I'd say Sorcerers are tied with a few other pures as the worst potential defense against maneuver and non-roll based attacks. I'm not sure what had you decide to go after creatures that are already notorious for being difficult, having high warding, and vicious boil earths.

Wheelerm

08-28-2013, 11:52 AM

Whirlin

08-28-2013, 12:21 PM

I am not disagreeing that there are some serious problems with the training - I do intend to fix that, but if I can fix the stats and it would help, shouldn't I do that in addition to fixing the training plan?
Gonna say No on this.

Any class with stats set to max at 100 is going to have a worse time leveling from at least level 0 to probably 70+. Your prime stats which you rely on most often are going to be lower, and you're going to have reduced total TP... So think about something like CS for example... Less Spell Ranks + Lower stats = reduced CS... Why would that make leveling easier?

Current Training Plan
Armor use: 8 ranks
PF: 1x
Climbing/Swimming: 10 ranks
Perception: 1x
AS: 1x
MIU: 1x
Harness: @Level
EMC: 1x
SMC: 1x
Lores: 1x
Spells: 49 Sorc, 30 MnE, 7 MnS
w/ 26 PTP remaining
Total TP: 1400/1704
Since MTP starved:
=2404 MTP

With perfect stats
(all 100s, except INT at 79)
Total TP: 1508/1522
Since MTP Starved:
=2276 MTP

-2 Spell Ranks,
-14 Aura Bonus, -12 Aura Bonus, for a nice -6.5 CS

You're asking if it's worthwhile to spend 9m to be weaker right now... The answer is no.
That's why people wait til Cap to fix their stats:their prime stats won't decrease in the transition. While they'll lose the TP, no stat will be decreased in the process.

Wheelerm

08-28-2013, 12:23 PM

While waiting on some replies on the stats, I put the proposed stats in the Tsoran Spreadsheet, and then adjusted the training based on the feedback provided by you guys. Here is what I wound up with:

Level 0/Level 32

STR: 89/93
CON: 90/95
DEX: 59/75
AGI: 62/72
DIS: 70/80
AUR: 86/98
LOG: 70/82
INT: 21/47
WIS: 92/100
INF: 21/47

AU: 8 ranks
PF: 1X
MOC: Dropped to zero
Climbing: 0.5X
Swimming: 0.5X
Perception: 1X
First Aid: Dropped to zero
Trading: Dropped to zero
Survival: Dropped to zero
AS: 1X
MIU: 1X
HP: 1X
SA: Dropped to zero
EMC: 30 ranks
SMC: 24 ranks
MnE: 30 ranks
MnS: 3 ranks
Sorcerer: 53 ranks (Level+21)
Sorcererous Lore - Demonology: 5 ranks
Sorcererous Lore - Necro: 25 ranks

This gets me the 8x per level of magic training needed for runestaff wielding, gets me to 430, gets me to level+21 in sorcerer ranks. I dropped spell aiming for now and will work to pick it up again later if I want to use some of the bolting MnE spells, but that'll just have to be later. I was enjoying skinning (it is profitable), but I think at my level the CS and defense is more important.

So, how about this? Does it look pretty solid?

Thanks again for the help.

Allereli

08-28-2013, 12:28 PM

I am not disagreeing that there are some serious problems with the training - I do intend to fix that, but if I can fix the stats and it would help, shouldn't I do that in addition to fixing the training plan?

I wouldn't prioritize it, you'll lose TPs and CS. hunt smarter, maybe get a strength enhancive, and you'll be okay, maybe even to cap, at least to level 70. You should not fixstat twice before cap.

And don't tank INT, it's a main stat in ensorcell.

get 120 or 130 before +21 in sorcerer circle. I never +21 in sorcerer circle, it's really not necessary if you hunt smart.

Wheelerm

08-28-2013, 12:42 PM

Gonna say No on this.

Any class with stats set to max at 100 is going to have a worse time leveling from at least level 0 to probably 70+. Your prime stats which you rely on most often are going to be lower, and you're going to have reduced total TP... So think about something like CS for example... Less Spell Ranks + Lower stats = reduced CS... Why would that make leveling easier?

I think I might see where we went astray...this is completely my fault. So, I was wanting to shift things around to get as many stats as near 100 as possible for around level 70 for right now since I am almost halfway there. At level 70, I am going to do another fixstat to get ready for cap. My prime stats are still at 100 after the fixstat, so this isn't a concern. I apologize for the confusion.

Allereli

08-28-2013, 12:49 PM

I think I might see where we went astray...this is completely my fault. So, I was wanting to shift things around to get as many stats as near 100 as possible for around level 70 for right now since I am almost halfway there. At level 70, I am going to do another fixstat to get ready for cap. My prime stats are still at 100 after the fixstat, so this isn't a concern. I apologize for the confusion.

you're not even 30% of the way there experience-wise. Your stats are fine until at least level 70.

Whirlin

08-28-2013, 01:19 PM

You're talking about $126 to do something slower, and less effective.

What else can you get for $126?

A used Nintendo 3DS
Almost 2 refurbished Nooks
A set of pretty sick noise canceling headphones
8 Toasters
23-inch flatscreen LCD Computer Monitor
16 gigs of DDR3 ram
A decent AMD 970 graphics card
4 pounds of reindeer meat
3 pounds of duck testicles
13 pounds of wild boar bacon
4 T1 Ensorcells
Probably some 5x padded armor
13 hours with Jeril's mom
20 minutes of unlogged time with with Loralaii
90% of a Whirlin Sorcerer guide.

Nattor

08-28-2013, 01:33 PM

Wheelerm

08-28-2013, 02:27 PM

90% of a Whirlin Sorcerer guide.

If I had Whirlin's Sorcerer Guide, we wouldn't be having this discussion. :)

All right, I get it...I had a fixstat in my pocket and thought I should use it to maximize these stats, but smarter people than I are telling me the stats are okay.

Thanks.

Sorcasaurus

08-28-2013, 03:10 PM

If you're still looking at training options, this thread is a pretty good one to read through.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?82192-New-sorc-help!/page3

A good deal of training/hunting advice, and Whirlin shows the actual numbers for maxing CS vs some other options.

Rolton-Sammich

08-28-2013, 03:32 PM

The other problem is what you hunt. I'm not sure why you would hunt tree spirits as a sorcerer. In comparison to all classes, I'd say Sorcerers are tied with a few other pures as the worst potential defense against maneuver and non-roll based attacks. I'm not sure what had you decide to go after creatures that are already notorious for being difficult, having high warding, and vicious boil earths.

^^^

Jeril

08-28-2013, 11:57 PM

(at level 46), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Physical Fitness...................| 148 48
Magic Item Use.....................| 50 10
Harness Power......................| 146 46
Elemental Mana Control.............| 90 20
Sorcerous Lore - Demonology........| 147 47
Sorcerous Lore - Necromancy........| 5 1
Perception.........................| 90 20
Climbing...........................| 148 48
Trading............................| 120 30

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 30

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 16

Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 86

Race: Forest Gnome Profession: Sorcerer (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 2222172 Level: 46
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 95 (12) ... 95 (12)
Constitution (CON): 89 (29) ... 89 (29)
Dexterity (DEX): 85 (22) ... 85 (22)
Agility (AGI): 88 (29) ... 88 (29)
Discipline (DIS): 82 (21) ... 82 (21)
Aura (AUR): 78 (14) ... 78 (14)
Logic (LOG): 82 (21) ... 82 (21)
Intuition (INT): 86 (18) ... 86 (18)
Wisdom (WIS): 82 (21) ... 82 (21)
Influence (INF): 61 (0) ... 61 (0)

Pretty bare bones on the training but it works for me, he has plenty of DS, I only picked up the 10 ranks of MIU for dull coins. Only really uses 702 to hunt with right now but if I wanted to he could be 2x in harness power and use 705 to hunt a bit faster, of course I'd stop HP at 100 ranks if I did that. You don't need AS/MIU or anything for runestaff ranks. You want more DS train in MnS, once you get 120 you get 2 DS every even rank, one from 102 and another from 120. I'd agree with people save your fixstat for later and just tweak your training. If you want other skills you can obviously cut back on the sorcerer spells to get them. Train how you want for the skills you want to use though and don't listen to other people, especially about idiotic things like runestaff ranks.

Lulfas

08-29-2013, 07:31 PM

What kind of gear do you use that that gives you enough DS? Because that spec looks awesome.

Jeril

08-29-2013, 10:31 PM

For a good while he had just a 4x flaring runestaff and 4x full leathers. A few levels back I upgraded his armor to some 10x fulls though. He died once to some very bad luck before the upgrade, having the higher enchanted armor may have saved his life then but I haven't seen the chain of events repeated itself to really confirm or deny that theory. Even without me to fund him though he has earned enough silver to have 6-7x gear himself, I hold off on a higher enchant runestaff because I'm enchanting him a fusion one.

Wheelerm

08-30-2013, 05:22 PM

I thought it was buried in the mechanics regarding the 8 ranks of magic per level to properly use a runestaff? Anything less would reduce your parry chances and lower your DS was my understanding. Is that not right?

Jeril

08-30-2013, 06:12 PM

Having 8 magic ranks per level just means it gives you the same parry DS as someone who was trained 1x in THW +10 phantom ranks. Every rank of THW gives you .3 offensive parry DS and 1.05 DS in defensive stance and I guess it would be .9 in guarded. So, having those 8 ranks per level is just a guideline, at roughly 5 ranks a level my sorcerer does have less runestaff DS but it obviously isn't really hurting him and if DS was an issue it would be simple enough to get to 120 sooner, use a small statue, or get some common outside spells. After 8 ranks a level you start seeing some diminishing returns.

You can find the runestaff DS formula on KP.
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Runestaff

Using the formula my sorcerer is missing out on 11.2 ranks of parry DS compared to someone who is a full 8x in magical skills. In guarded that is a difference of 10 DS and in offensive the difference is only 3 DS.

Dranock

08-30-2013, 08:10 PM

All my opinion.
I am still a noob 24/7.
I'm sure you already have your answers, there is some great advice in here already.

Armor Use................................| 40 8 (0 for robes, 4 for full, 8 for doubles you pick)
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 15 3 Take to 0
Physical Fitness.........................| 126 33 1x, some people keep this around 24/25 for max HP and adjust hunting strategies to non maneuvers.

Arcane Symbols........................| 126 33 1x

Magic Item Use.........................| 126 33 1x

Spell Aiming.............................| 166 66 0x-2x
If you don't bolt, you can try taking this to 0x and upping your HP or Spell ranks for max CS.
I generally run with 102 up so I don't bolt... Balefire blows. I keep the ranks up for Implode.

Harness Power..........................| 126 33 1x-1.5x
Overtraining HP is majorly diminished and not recommended. Some people just have to have more mana.
Try finding a hunting partner so every kill doesn't take as many casts.

Elemental Mana Control.............| 126 33 1x
Spirit Mana Control....................| 126 33 1x

Sorcerous Lore - Demonology........| 40 8 take down to 0 unless you have some crazy RP reason.
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Sorcerous_Lore,_Demonology
The main plan in this was to get Rifting, with all the nifty ways of travel its more of a later on in life goal to get that up IMO

Sorcerous Lore - Necromancy........| 105 25 .5x-.75x
Lores are tough on early trains, necromancy is nice with ensorcelling and pain.
Pain is a bit tough on the mana but the forced RT as you get higher is nice, as well as the full death in 3 casts if you can ward it.

Survival...................................| 74 16 Take to 0

Perception...............................| 78 17 Take to .5x or 1x depending on what you hunt.
Climbing..................................| 96 22 .5x
Swimming................................| 96 22 .5x
These all can be .5x and you'll be alright, unless you have some crazy place you want to hunt that requires it.

First Aid....................................| 74 16 Take to 0
Trading.....................................| 30 6 Take to 0

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 20
You want 425 for added CS, every 2 trains after that gives you 1 CS with 425. I'd work this up to 25, and keep it around .75x your level.

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 14
Up to 120 and freeze it.

Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 38
Get this up to 21 over your level ASAP. This is your meat and potatoes.

General hunting strats,
711 is great with lores. The problem is it is uber expensive at early trains and you're not going to ward as hard as you can at cap/higher trains.
11 mana a piece, around your level you're just around 100 mana.

That's 3 things dead, I think not.

Use 702/705 as your general grind spells. If something isn't warding well, hunt something else. Watch your CVA.
Don't be afraid to hop towns.

703/410/706/711 when used appropriately can really save your ass. Something casting? Find a way to stop it. Something disarming? Blow off its arm. Carry the sorc wands on you and find a wizard to duplicate, check the pawnshop tables.

Try to hunt with a partner, it'll help with your mana per kill and overall make things a lot easier as a pure until you can self sustain. I think I really picked up around 40 like most pures.

Whirlin

08-30-2013, 08:20 PM

Chuck Testa'ing that post.
http://media-curse.cursecdn.com/attachments/61/309/1d94b09cd0787a5f863a1f77a7aeb517.jpg

Spell Aiming.............................| 166 66 0x-2x
If you don't bolt, you can try taking this to 0x and upping your HP or Spell ranks for max CS.
I generally run with 102 up so I don't bolt... Balefire blows. I keep the ranks up for Implode.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdghi2kqXB1qc0lao.jpg
False, 102 does not impact bolts. It's a great spell for wizards.

Climbing..................................| 96 22 .5x
Swimming................................| 96 22 .5x

Need 50 ranks of both for later hunting grounds... 50 ranks by 80 or so... but usually you use the additional TP you natural stat growth to cover

You want 425 for added CS, every 2 trains after that gives you 1 CS with 425. I'd work this up to 25, and keep it around .75x your level.

Nope... Sorc circle is considered hybrid, and only obtains half the benefit from 425, so it's 1 CS every 4 ranks. So you're looking at a max of .35 CS per rank in MnE... Thats why I didn't chime in with Jeril's +40 ranks in Sorc with only 430 in MnE.

Sorcerer...........................| 38
Get this up to 21 over your level ASAP. This is your meat and potatoes.
Also not sure why 21 over the level... 20 over level is +.75 per rank... that 21st rank is .5

General hunting strats,
711 is great with lores. The problem is it is uber expensive at early trains and you're not going to ward as hard as you can at cap/higher trains.
11 mana a piece, around your level you're just around 100 mana.

Wouldn't that necessitate more Harness Power... which you were saying NO to earlier?

Astron

08-31-2013, 11:50 AM

An example of how 711 kept the elder from striking back further.

[Thanatoph Bowels, East Lobe]
Cracked stone flooring thrusts up sharply at odd angles, as though a massive upheaval wracked this structure. Moss and lichen thrive along the edges of the jutting pieces, drinking from the damp surroundings. Smooth, ridged tracks cut into the clay exposed underneath the broken stone, the result of collected moisture running off in rivulets. You also see an Illoke elder.
Obvious exits: southeast, south, southwest, northwest
>
An Illoke elder swings an enormous stalagmite at you!
AS: +413 vs DS: +500 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +33 = -19
A clean miss.
>.c 11 elder
[Script c is running, Esc to cancel, Shift-Esc to pause]
>prep 711
>cast elder
[script done]
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Pain...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at an Illoke elder.
CS: +460 - TD: +386 + CvA: +25 + d100: +78 == +177
Warding failed!
An Illoke elder contorts in excruciating agony!
(+7 sec roundtime!)
(35% max health damage!)

** Necrotic energy from your ebonwood staff overflows into you! **

You feel energized!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>.c 11 elder
[Script c is running, Esc to cancel, Shift-Esc to pause]
>prep 711
>cast elder
[script done]
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Pain...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at an Illoke elder.
CS: +463 - TD: +386 + CvA: +25 + d100: +86 == +188
Warding failed!
You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.
An Illoke elder contorts in excruciating agony!
(+7 sec roundtime!)
(35% max health damage!)
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>.c 11 elder
[Script c is running, Esc to cancel, Shift-Esc to pause]
>prep 711
>cast elder
[script done]
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Pain...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at an Illoke elder.
CS: +460 - TD: +386 + CvA: +25 + d100: +58 == +157
Warding failed!
An Illoke elder contorts in excruciating agony!
(+7 sec roundtime!)
(35% max health damage!)
The Illoke elder rumbles in agony as he teeters for a moment, then tumbles to the ground with a thundering crash!
The Illoke elder shudders one last time before lying still.
An Illoke elder glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around an Illoke elder.
A luminescent aura fades from around an Illoke elder.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding an Illoke elder suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>search
Out of the corner of your eye, you see an ancient Illoke elder approaching. He must be the creature that you've been tasked to kill!
>
You search the Illoke elder.
You discard the elder's useless equipment.
He carried a sturdy steel chest on him!
An Illoke elder's body shudders and crumbles into itself in a mass of rough grey stone.
>
A small verdant will-o'-wisp obliviously flits out from inside your acorn amulet, hovering around the ebonwood staff in your right hand and retreats back inside the amulet.
>,c 15 eld
Please rephrase that command.
>
An ancient Illoke elder thunders, "Let the Lord of Stone crush his foes with his terrible might!"
An ancient Illoke elder swings an enormous stalagmite at you!
AS: +451 vs DS: +500 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +3 = -11
A clean miss.
>.c 19 eld
[Script c is running, Esc to cancel, Shift-Esc to pause]
>prep 719
>cast eld
[script done]
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Dark Catalyst...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at an ancient Illoke elder.
CS: +460 - TD: +412 + CvA: +25 + d100: +93 == +166
Warding failed!
... and hits for 29 points of damage!
An ancient Illoke elder is suddenly engulfed in flames of pure essence!
The heat wafts over the Illoke elder with little effect.
The intense cold contacts the Illoke elder's hot skin with a sharp hiss!
... 5 points of damage!
Light shock to back. That stings!
... 75 points of damage!
Left leg collapses as the bones turn to dust!
The Illoke elder rumbles in agony as he teeters for a moment, then tumbles to the ground with a thundering crash!
You feel 4 mana surge into you!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
The Illoke elder cries out in agony as his skin shatters!
... 30 points of damage!
Stubs right hand finger.
... 30 points of damage!
Blow grazes left arm lightly.
>.c 15 elder
[Script c is running, Esc to cancel, Shift-Esc to pause]
>prep 715
>cast elder
[script done]
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Curse...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at an ancient Illoke elder.
A thread of brackish blue magic issues forth from you toward the Illoke elder. It coils itself around him, whirling malevolently before disappearing within his body.
An ancient Illoke elder shakes slightly and looks very vulnerable!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
An ancient Illoke elder bellows, "Feel the wrath of Illoke, little one!"
An ancient Illoke elder swings an enormous stalagmite at you!
You barely manage to fend off the attack with your staff!
>.c 11 elder
[Script c is running, Esc to cancel, Shift-Esc to pause]
>prep 711
>cast elder
[script done]
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Pain...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at an ancient Illoke elder.
CS: +460 - TD: +388 + CvA: +25 + d100: +66 == +163
Warding failed!
An ancient Illoke elder contorts in excruciating agony!
(+7 sec roundtime!)
(35% max health damage!)
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>.c 11 elder
[Script c is running, Esc to cancel, Shift-Esc to pause]
>prep 711
>cast elder
[script done]
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Pain...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at an ancient Illoke elder.
CS: +460 - TD: +388 + CvA: +25 + d100: +97 == +194
Warding failed!
An ancient Illoke elder contorts in excruciating agony!
(+7 sec roundtime!)
(35% max health damage!)
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>.c 11 elder
[Script c is running, Esc to cancel, Shift-Esc to pause]
>prep 711
>cast elder
[script done]
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Pain...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at an ancient Illoke elder.
CS: +460 - TD: +388 + CvA: +25 + d100: +59 == +156
Warding failed!
An ancient Illoke elder contorts in excruciating agony!
(+7 sec roundtime!)
(35% max health damage!)

[You have completed this portion of your Adventurer's Guild task.]
The Illoke elder grumbles in pain one last time before lying still.
An ancient Illoke elder glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around an ancient Illoke elder.
The Illoke elder appears a bit less vulnerable.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>search
You search the Illoke elder.
You discard the elder's useless equipment.
He had 704 silvers on him.
You gather the remaining 704 coins.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
He had a golden topaz on him!
Interesting, he carried a smooth bone wand on him.
He had nothing else of value.
An ancient Illoke elder's body shudders and crumbles into itself in a mass of rough grey stone.
R>get top
You pick up a golden topaz.
>stow top
You put a golden topaz in your glyph-covered backpack.
>get wand
You pick up a smooth bone wand.
>stow wand
You put a smooth bone wand in your glyph-covered backpack.

Dranock

08-31-2013, 01:04 PM

Yeah, I knew I got some things wrong in there. I don't play my sorc much anymore. Typed it up in a hurry!

You're right and I am wrong.

Wheelerm

08-31-2013, 09:01 PM

A lot of great training advice here, so I appreciate it. This is the plan I have come up with based on what was posted so far. If you see where improvements can be made, then by all means tear this post apart and let me know.

AU: 8 ranks (doubles)
MOC: Dropped
PF: 1x
Climbing: 0.5x - The Climbing and Swimming will be brought up to appropriate levels when needed, but for now I'm just 0.5xing
Swimming: 0.5x
Percep: 1x
AS: 1x - I'm on the fence about this one. If you guys really think it isn't necessary, it would free up some points, but I am working on infusing scrolls. This is the main motivation for keeping it
MIU: 1x - Also on the fence here. I don't use embeddables, so I suspect I can drop it, but it feels weird not having it...
HP: 1x - I don't see the need to overtrain in this and agree that the return on investment isn't high enough
SA: Dropped - I may pick this up later if I feel like bolting, but my preferred hunting style is warding, so...
EMC: I like the suggestion of making 30 ranks at 30 trains, 40 ranks and 40 trains, etc. I have it set up in the Tsoran Spreadsheet to make sure this happens. Basically, from level 35 - 40, I will double in this to pick up those ten ranks at the next decade.
SMC: 24 ranks, and will most likely keep it here. Just to maximize the mana share with spiritual pures
MnE: I have 25 ranks right now. Will pick up the other 5 ranks at level 33, 34, and 35.
MnS: I have 15 ranks now. I will work my way up to 30 ranks eventually.
Sorcerer: I managed to get 52 ranks, which is level + 20. I have the spreadsheet worked out so that beginning at level 43, I start tripling so that I can get up to level + 60 at level 62. The reason why this starts at level 43 is because at level 42, I'll have both MnE and MnS at 30 ranks. Up to level 43, I will be at level + 20, so still getting the most benefit.
Lores: I have dropped these completely. I figure by the time I'm ready to pick this up, I'll have another fixskill and can figure out how to fit it in then.

caelric

08-31-2013, 09:21 PM

One comment on AS: if you do plan on infusing scrolls, I melieve MIU plays a role in unlocking them, and AS in the actual infusing. Might be the other way around. Either way, KP has the answer, I am just not bothering to check it right now.

Infusing scrolls can be very powerful, especially if you focus on scrolls that provide AS (if you do bolt) or scrolls that can add CS (1612 is the only one that comes to mind) and can also provide a good bit of extra DS, if you are hurting there. However, the downside to infusing scrolls is the paperwork/keeping track of which scrolls need to be infused, etc... and the componentry, which can be a PITA, if you don't have another account as a locker mule. Not saying it is not possible, it just can be a PITA. I say this as a sorc who relies heavily on infused scrolls, albeit in Plat, where locker space is not as much of a problem.

zhelas

08-31-2013, 09:58 PM

^^^

A lot of great training advice here, so I appreciate it. This is the plan I have come up with based on what was posted so far. If you see where improvements can be made, then by all means tear this post apart and let me know.

AU: 8 ranks (doubles)
MOC: Dropped
PF: 1x
Climbing: 0.5x - The Climbing and Swimming will be brought up to appropriate levels when needed, but for now I'm just 0.5xing
Swimming: 0.5x
Percep: 1x
AS: 1x - I'm on the fence about this one. If you guys really think it isn't necessary, it would free up some points, but I am working on infusing scrolls. This is the main motivation for keeping it
MIU: 1x - Also on the fence here. I don't use embeddables, so I suspect I can drop it, but it feels weird not having it...
HP: 1x - I don't see the need to overtrain in this and agree that the return on investment isn't high enough
SA: Dropped - I may pick this up later if I feel like bolting, but my preferred hunting style is warding, so...
EMC: I like the suggestion of making 30 ranks at 30 trains, 40 ranks and 40 trains, etc. I have it set up in the Tsoran Spreadsheet to make sure this happens. Basically, from level 35 - 40, I will double in this to pick up those ten ranks at the next decade.
SMC: 24 ranks, and will most likely keep it here. Just to maximize the mana share with spiritual pures
MnE: I have 25 ranks right now. Will pick up the other 5 ranks at level 33, 34, and 35.
MnS: I have 15 ranks now. I will work my way up to 30 ranks eventually.
Sorcerer: I managed to get 52 ranks, which is level + 20. I have the spreadsheet worked out so that beginning at level 43, I start tripling so that I can get up to level + 60 at level 62. The reason why this starts at level 43 is because at level 42, I'll have both MnE and MnS at 30 ranks. Up to level 43, I will be at level + 20, so still getting the most benefit.
Lores: I have dropped these completely. I figure by the time I'm ready to pick this up, I'll have another fixskill and can figure out how to fit it in then.

AS: Cheap Magic ranks. You get some very nice durations from self casting from scrolls. Being a pure, spell tanking is extremely useful. I personally would keep it at 1x

Spell Aiming: Personally i would 2x in it. We have a very nice disabling spells. Aimed Limb Disruption. As you get hire in levels you will find creatures with Combat Maneuvers that will be your Bane of existence. If you remove their right arm or one of their legs. They can't use their maneuvers against you. If you come across a creature you can't hit. Focused Implosion is a nice spell to have in your back pocket. It does stink that you will lose the loot most of the time.

Lores: You want to drop them completely. Let me make a recommendation. Get 52 ranks of Demonology and 1 rank of Necromancy.... at the bare minimum.

Why?

At 50 ranks of Demonology you have the best chance for your retribution to lash out at a creature that has attacked you. only a 5% failure. I am referring to Cloak of Shadows 712

The extra 2 ranks will put you in to the next category for phasing boxes. This is very nice because it will keep you light on your feet.

1 rank of Necromancy... This will let you receive blood from creatures when you cast 701 at them. It is helpful if you need hitpoints if you take damage and can't make it to a healer quickly.

As for spell training...be around 2.45x ... anymore than that, in my opinion you are wasting points that you need for other skills. You have access to orbs as other have mentioned.. if you hunt smart you can survive with less. If you are dying, maybe your hunting tactics need to be changed. Try the PEER verb to look into the next room.. Then you can see what is in there and prepare for your next attack.

Emc and Smc: I personally would 1x in both. Why? Cheap magic ranks. The mana you get back from each pulse. It affects your 719 absorption of mana. Reduces the cost of Focused Implosion.

Perception. Being 1x in it before cap in my opinion is a luxury. Yes it helps seeing traps set by bandits. Again you are a pure. We have big feet that love to step in snares. .5x in it should be enough..but that is my opinion.

Swiming and Climbing: The advice I will give you on this is where do you hunt? How much do you need to be able to hunt successfully in your area. Try to have about 30 ranks in both by level 50. This will allow you to climb into Pinfar. At level 70ish you can swim into the Rift. Some may argue that you need more climbing to hunt minotaurs. Set a ring to that location. Then use 740 and rift to that spot if you wish to hunt. Remember you are a Sorcerer.. we travel in style. When you can hunt in Nelemar, you will need about 50 ranks of swiming, though water walking helps you swim in. You only need 30 ranks of swimming to get into OTF.

PF: Yes this is the primary skill that has wonderful benefits such as hidden swimming and climbing bonuses. Helps on stun recovery. Makes your recovery from 130 go faster. Primary skill for defending against some maneuvers. In my opinion, unless you are in Guardians of Sunfist, you only need about 24 to 25 ranks pre cap. Make 1x in PF a post cap goal. You can survive easily to cap with only 24 or 25 ranks. Use the points elsewhere. Even being 1x in PF you will still suffer from maneuvers. You are a pure and a sorcerer at that.

Anyway good luck to you.

Peace

Zhelas

zhelas

08-31-2013, 10:08 PM

I left MIU out of my post: 1x in MIU. Again cheap ranks. Your durations will increase with the ranks. I know you said you don't use imbeds. Sometimes it is nice to have an imbed with ewave in it. Crowd control is extremely important. When I hunted stronghold i used ewave all the time to knock the Illoyke over. So when they die they wouldn't crush me. Ewave is mana intensive. So I carried rods imbedded with ewave to conserve mana.

Allereli

08-31-2013, 10:21 PM

if you want to infuse scrolls, then do it. if you want to skin, then do it. if you want to train lores, then do it. you don't need that many spell ranks.

zhelas

08-31-2013, 10:26 PM

if you want to infuse scrolls, then do it. if you want to skin, then do it. if you want to train lores, then do it. you don't need that many spell ranks.

True. I never got the plus 21 ranks over in the sorcerer circle until Zhelas was..... 95?

You can be the one trick pony and just do CS. However I have talked to quite a few folks who got bored and balanced their characters.

Whirlin

08-31-2013, 11:42 PM

Allereli

08-31-2013, 11:58 PM

I do like the idea of 'too much' spell research though. However, I wouldn't consider this to be too big of an issue until you're at Sorc + 20 ranks, with MnE @ level.... which is a pretty tall order.

lol totally not needed to cap or be successful

Whirlin

09-01-2013, 12:43 AM

lol totally not needed to cap or be successful

Neither is enchanted gear... or non-retarded job/class combinations... You seem to REALLY be missing the point with most of my posts...

Let me try to make another analogy.

Yes, you can cap using a scimitar. I'm going to always recommend that you use a falchion or handaxe instead of it though.

Allereli

09-01-2013, 12:46 AM

there is a lot more to sorcery than a high CS. try out some of the other skill sometime. if all you want to do is script hunt around, by all means do all spells, but you can have fun in the game doing a lot more.

you seem to be missing my point. Just because Whirlin writes guides doesn't mean his way is the "right" way. there is no right way. if you think doing a particular skill is fun or profitable, train it without regard to the +21 spell BS

Whirlin

09-01-2013, 12:57 AM

Fun is subjective. Looking over this entire thread, I don't see anyone saying that their goal is to maximize fun at the expense of hunting ability. On the contrary, every post in this thread has been about maximizing hunting potential.

I really don't care what you consider fun. If people are going to ask how to maximize their characters, I'm going to tell them. Yes, you can be a completely successful gnome warrior, or Erithian... anything... But it's going to be harder, and your maximum is going to be lower than alternative options.

Furthermore, I never once said that everything that I say is prescriptive. In my latest reply, I reaffirmed my stance on Physical Fitness and Perception, and justified my reasons. Never once did I say you HAVE to do that. I didn't say you couldn't go 2x Spell Aiming, again, I said it's a subjective decision, and there are situations where I wouldn't recommend it.

I don't know why you have this apprehension against math. The entire game is based on a few fundamental equations. When people are asking about maximization, I'm going to explain the situation, and base my recommendations on my knowledge of game mechanics. I don't give a shit if there's an external function that can be drawn upon, because the same benefit can be applied equally to all scenarios, and if X > Y, then X+1 > Y + 1.

... and you editted it before I could reply.

Tisket

09-01-2013, 12:59 AM

if you want to infuse scrolls, then do it. if you want to skin, then do it. if you want to train lores, then do it. you don't need that many spell ranks.

Just shut your fucking mouth. Or start your own fucking thread. God, you are such a stupid cunt.

Allereli

09-01-2013, 01:02 AM

if you paid any attention to the OP, you would have read that he enjoys skinning and wants to do scroll infusion. your suggestions provide for neither. I was doing scroll infusion regularly by level 30 and skinning since level 1. that doesn't seem possible under your "CS is everything" model.

zhelas

09-01-2013, 01:02 AM

Zhelas makes some good points in his post, but I disagree on PF and Perception.
I stand by full 1x PF and 1x Perception. With Whirlin, I brought myself from 24 ranks up to 80 ranks, and the difference was astronomical. You basically go from never having any chance of ever dodging anything ever, to having a pretty good shot of dodging something while in guarded... Considering Sorcerer's natural weakness towards combat maneuver attacks, I'm not sure why'd you just roll over and admit defeat so heavily. I can respect playing to your strengths, but the marginal cost isn't that substantial. And while this may not be an immediate need at level 10, it should be considered heavily for hunting post 50, when creature maneuvers become much more commonplace.

Spell aiming is nice... but it comes down to preferred style and anticipated return... and honestly, a little evaluation of race, if you're planning to have it in your back pocket for AS resolved attacks, then you'd want to be a DEX heavy race like halfling or Dark Elf. If you're a dwarf or giant, I wouldn't recommend it, because you'd be training in it for only half of it's potential.

I know your argument of a good offensive with spell aiming can disable and make combat maneuvers irrelevant, however, that's entirely based on the way that creature RT functions, who gets first hit, etc, and seems rather unreliable.

I do like the idea of 'too much' spell research though. However, I wouldn't consider this to be too big of an issue until you're at Sorc + 20 ranks, with MnE @ level.... which is a pretty tall order.

Don't get me wrong. I brought Zhelas up to 1x in physical fitness post cap and I am extremely happy. The issue is at pre cap the costs of other skills are pretty darn expensive. I wish we could 3x PF like empaths but that is another argument.

You are right it becomes all about playing style.

For me it is all about crowd control which I became a believer when hunting the N'ecare in the rift. I was tired of being tackled all of the time. So I disable with an aimed 708 and then killed. With 2x in Spell Aiming you don't have the CS penalty when you try to do an Aimed Limb Disruption. You know when Zhelas is hunting in an area, there are arms lying all over the ground.

Spell Aiming also increases the damage you do with focused implosion. Better Focused Maelstrom. (I hate that spell. It takes way to long to get started and creatures run from it. However when mana is a challenge it works nicely) At lower levels bolting really is out of the question unless you use imbeds and wands. However Web Bolting is pretty awesome versus Griffins, Fire Spirit Destroys Vaespilons. I haven't played too much with Baelfire. Sometimes during an invasion only our bolting spells can hit the creatures. I use our bolting spells every time I group hunt Bandits.

LOL Don't let CRB/Virilneus hear your comments about Dwarves.

Our other great spell is Pain. However 711 is very mana intensive at lower levels and requires a heavy investment in Neromancy Lores.

Allereli is right. You don't need all those spell ranks. If folks remember Sereg, he was only 2x in spells when he capped. He placed all of his points into maxing out Demonology. It was a Roleplaying choice. I never considered his sorcerer as weak.

Peace

Zhelas

Whirlin

09-01-2013, 01:21 AM

For me it is all about crowd control which I became a believer when hunting the N'ecare in the rift. I was tired of being tackled all of the time. So I disable with an aimed 708 and then killed. With 2x in Spell Aiming you don't have the CS penalty when you try to do an Aimed Limb Disruption. You know when Zhelas is hunting in an area, there are arms lying all over the ground.

I was thinking more about this... and wouldn't that just be saving a few casts of limb disruption? I mean... focusing definitely helps... but take off a leg or two, and take off an arm or two... and whatever you're fighting is gonna have a bad day... kinda regardless of what limb you too off.

Spell Aiming also increases the damage you do with focused implosion. Better Focused Maelstrom. (I hate that spell. It takes way to long to get started and creatures run from it. However when mana is a challenge it works nicely) At lower levels bolting really is out of the question unless you use imbeds and wands. However Web Bolting is pretty awesome versus Griffins, Fire Spirit Destroys Vaespilons. I haven't played too much with Baelfire. Sometimes during an invasion only our bolting spells can hit the creatures. I use our bolting spells every time I group hunt Bandits.

Low levels is an entirely different beast... Spell aiming fucking rocks pre-40... just because of kinda shoddy work that Simu did on migration of GS3 to GS4 relative to critter's defenses... (I've personally found that critters have abnormally high TD til about 30... especially relative to their DS). But yeah... that's also assuming you're willing to invest in wands.

LOL Don't let CRB/Virilneus hear your comments about Dwarves.

He's heard... understands my arguments, and makes his case. There's a pretty wide gap between Dark Elves and next best alternatives, and Dwarves aren't too far down that list. It fits his style, and while it may not be min-maxed... it fits Allereli's "good enough to cap" criteria of having a pulse.

Our other great spell is Pain. However 711 is very mana intensive at lower levels and requires a heavy investment in Neromancy Lores.

I've been doing more research on Pain... and I like it as a spell for mobs that can't be critted... and assuming that you're necro-lore trained. If you're not necro trained, you're looking at spending 44 mana to kill a critter, which could be 2-3 DC's, or over half a dozen disintegrates. There just seem to be more efficient ways of killing a critter. Although the induced RT can be a godsend on critters.

Allereli

09-01-2013, 01:41 AM

so who is your sorcerer anyway Whirlin? you say that Zhelas, Viril and I are all wrong. That's many millions in exp actually playing a sorcerer and we're all wrong? all I see are a bunch of formulas and no evidence of experience. Why max your CS when it's entirely unnecessary. you can do just as well with 10 less spell ranks and a ton of ranks in supplementary skills.

Tgo01

09-01-2013, 02:11 AM

Damn Allereli, when you going to get off of Whirlin's nuts? There are lots of other nuts to try out.

Tisket

09-01-2013, 02:13 AM

She's such an ugly, petty cunt.

Allereli

09-01-2013, 02:26 AM

wow Tisket, bitter much? go troll your kids.

Damn Allereli, when you going to get off of Whirlin's nuts? There are lots of other nuts to try out.

why can't I disagree with his advice when it goes against what the OP said he wanted to do?

Tgo01

09-01-2013, 02:29 AM

You can disagree with his advice all you want. I just don't recall him ever saying he was right and everyone who dares disagree with him is wrong.

Maybe I missed it though.

Tisket

09-01-2013, 02:31 AM

wow Tisket, bitter much? go troll your kids.

why can't I disagree with his advice when it goes against what the OP said he wanted to do?

The only one bitter here is you. You reek of it.

Allereli

09-01-2013, 02:37 AM

You can disagree with his advice all you want. I just don't recall him ever saying he was right and everyone who dares disagree with him is wrong.

Maybe I missed it though.

it fits Allereli's "good enough to cap" criteria of having a pulse.

I found that pretty condescending and responded.

Allereli

09-01-2013, 02:38 AM

The only one bitter here is you. You reek of it.

lol you just can't help yourself, can you?

Tisket

09-01-2013, 02:51 AM

lol you just can't help yourself, can you?

Can't help enjoying pointing out you are a cunt? Why would I curtail my fun. That's crazy talk.

Allereli

09-01-2013, 02:56 AM

Can't help enjoying pointing out you are a cunt? Why would I curtail my fun. That's crazy talk.

I thought we were all cunts? you need new shtick. what advice do you have for the OP that responds to his concerns?

Tisket

09-01-2013, 03:07 AM

I thought we were all cunts? you need new shtick. what advice do you have for the OP that responds to his concerns?

You don't like being ignored so you probably shouldn't encourage me to give my opinion.

Allereli

09-01-2013, 03:10 AM

You don't like being ignored so you probably shouldn't encourage me to give my opinion.

i.e. you have nothing to do here but troll and you have no actual knowledge of what the OP was asking for. way to be, lady, your poor kids.

Tisket

09-01-2013, 03:20 AM

i.e. you have nothing to do here but troll and you have no actual knowledge of what the OP was asking for. way to be, lady, your poor kids.

You have no actual knowledge of my children but that doesn't stop you from going there, does it. I know you are bitter that nobody wants to impregnate you but don't let your bile over that burn and boil inside you like that. It's not healthy.

4a6c1

09-01-2013, 03:36 AM

i.e. you have nothing to do here but troll and you have no actual knowledge of what the OP was asking for. way to be, lady, your poor kids.

Oh my god, Allereli. Tisket is a clear cut situation of "misery loves company" if I every saw one. Ignore vapid bitches of negligible real life accomplishment for the win. Dat bitch be trollin hard.

She's such an ugly, petty cunt.

Ugly and petty? Which one of you posted beautiful, artistic midair acrobatics in the picture thread and which one of you has ONLY posted her tits.

Let's face it, Allereli is talented and beautiful and you're just a fucking nobody who has an "extremely brave" anonymous persona online. Typical miserable Tisket!

4a6c1

09-01-2013, 03:43 AM

I know you are bitter that nobody wants to impregnate you but don't let your bile over that burn and boil inside you like that.

Holy shit, is this supposed to be a fucking insult?! I guess if the only thing you've ever done with your life is pop out a kid it probably sounds like one. This is glorious.

tyrant-201

09-01-2013, 03:43 AM

Oh my god, Allereli. Tisket is a clear cut situation of "misery loves company" if I every saw one. Ignore vapid bitches of negligible real life accomplishment for the win. Dat bitch be trollin hard.

Ugly and petty? Which one of you posted beautiful, artistic midair acrobatics in the picture thread and which one of you has ONLY posted her tits.

Let's face it, Allereli is talented and beautiful and you're just a fucking nobody who has an "extremely brave" anonymous persona online. Typical miserable Tisket!

I hear Tisket is a milf. Thus, she can do no wrong.

Edited to say: Also, link to Tisket tits?

Tisket

09-01-2013, 04:02 AM

Oh my god, Allereli. Tisket is a clear cut situation of "misery loves company" if I every saw one. Ignore vapid bitches of negligible real life accomplishment for the win. Dat bitch be trollin hard.

Ugly and petty? Which one of you posted beautiful, artistic midair acrobatics in the picture thread and which one of you has ONLY posted her tits.

Let's face it, Allereli is talented and beautiful and you're just a fucking nobody who has an "extremely brave" anonymous persona online. Typical miserable Tisket!

You are so filled with rage! Maybe that is the source of your compulsive, pathological lying. Having such low personal self-esteem must be why you feel the need to constantly inflate your accomplishments here, on an anonymous internet message board. I'd feel sad for you if I wasn't so amused by it.

Tisket

09-01-2013, 04:05 AM

Holy shit, is this supposed to be a fucking insult?! I guess if the only thing you've ever done with your life is pop out a kid it probably sounds like one. This is glorious.

Apparently she thought the fact that I have kids was supposed to be an insult of some sort. Do try and keep up.

4a6c1

09-01-2013, 04:13 AM

Oh hahaha that's perfect. So I have a happy life, success in my career and a life that I've earned all on my own. But I must be lying about it because it's something you could never do. Jesus you're transparent. And I do feel bad for you. :|

I've noticed you like to tell women they have low self esteem too, women who have their shit together. That's some pretty serious projecting.

Tisket

09-01-2013, 04:26 AM

Oh hahaha that's perfect. So I have a happy life, success in my career and a life that I've earned all on my own. But I must be lying about it because it's something you could never do. Jesus you're transparent. And I do feel bad for you. :|

I feel no need to trumpet my accomplishments. It's a pity that you think you must.

Incessantly.

4a6c1

09-01-2013, 04:34 AM

Well get over it. I've come into my own in the last few years and I'm pretty damn proud of it. Although to be fair I've tried to tone it down, I see that I can get over the top. Personally I think you could use a little MORE bragging about yourself. I'm suspect of women who don't brag about themselves occaisonally.

Tisket

09-01-2013, 04:39 AM

I don't like to make others feel badly about their lives by bragging about mine.

Tisket

09-01-2013, 04:42 AM

So I have a happy life, success in my career and a life that I've earned all on my own.

I don't understand why you think any of that is special or out of the ordinary. Most of the people that post here have all those things and more.

4a6c1

09-01-2013, 04:45 AM

I don't like to make others feel badly about their lives by bragging about mine.

No just calling people ugly and petty and pathological liars when they are none of those? lol okay

Tisket

09-01-2013, 04:50 AM

Truth hurts. You should try it occasionally.

4a6c1

09-01-2013, 05:02 AM

Tisket

09-01-2013, 05:25 AM

Wow, you don't get it. I'll break it down for you.

You claim you don't like to make others "feel badly" by saying nice things about yourself. Yet you will say not nice and untrue things about the female members of this board who have their shit together. Your idea of an insult is lack of impregnation (lols), which you seem to view as an accomplishment. There is no truth here, just obfuscation of some pretty serious personality flaws that you habitually try to put off on others.

I'm sure there are some nice things about you. Perhaps your art. I suggest you focus on those and improve yourself until you no longer feel the need to "create misery" in an effort to nurse your own ego.

No, you are correct, I don't brag or really discuss my life at all here. I know you'll likely attribute that to me having nothing worthy of discussion but it's just something that I don't feel the need to defend or exaggerate. Unlike you. My life is what it is and I am more than fine with it. But I can understand why someone who can't shut up about their own "life" would find that odd.

By the way, tasking me with being insulting by using insults of your own doesn't place you above the fray. It puts you right in the middle of it.

zhelas

09-01-2013, 06:45 AM

I was thinking more about this... and wouldn't that just be saving a few casts of limb disruption? I mean... focusing definitely helps... but take off a leg or two, and take off an arm or two... and whatever you're fighting is gonna have a bad day... kinda regardless of what limb you too off.

Low levels is an entirely different beast... Spell aiming fucking rocks pre-40... just because of kinda shoddy work that Simu did on migration of GS3 to GS4 relative to critter's defenses... (I've personally found that critters have abnormally high TD til about 30... especially relative to their DS). But yeah... that's also assuming you're willing to invest in wands.

He's heard... understands my arguments, and makes his case. There's a pretty wide gap between Dark Elves and next best alternatives, and Dwarves aren't too far down that list. It fits his style, and while it may not be min-maxed... it fits Allereli's "good enough to cap" criteria of having a pulse.

I've been doing more research on Pain... and I like it as a spell for mobs that can't be critted... and assuming that you're necro-lore trained. If you're not necro trained, you're looking at spending 44 mana to kill a critter, which could be 2-3 DC's, or over half a dozen disintegrates. There just seem to be more efficient ways of killing a critter. Although the induced RT can be a godsend on critters.

Aimed 708 was one of Rhiesia Witch's favorite spells.

Really it takes only one cast of aimed limb disruption. The sorcerer can type the aim right arm and when ever he or she casts 708, limb disruption it will target the right arm of the creature. With the right arm gone, 99% of the creatures will just stand there and do nothing. They can't attack, cast spells or perform a combat maneuver. What are the other 1%? Greater Krynches still can perform their boulder maneuvers. Earth Elementals can attack when all of their limbs are gone.

I set my cloak of shadows retribution to 708. Because i figure if i get hit, the demon will lash out and remove the attacking arm of the creature making it safe to be around. This has saved my behind in Nelemar quite a few times. The only issue I have with 712's retribution is it won't activate against combat maneuvers which i think it should. Again another argument for another day.

Folks may say will 708 doesn't work against non corporeal undead. It does actually but you need one setup spell 704 the non corporeal undead. This will make it solid and yes you can then remove the limb.

I on the other hand don't bother with that setup. I use 711 as a setup spell and finish those creatures with 705 or 702.
With everyone wanting to enscroll items. They are now getting ranks in necromancy. This has opened many folks eyes on how great this spell really is.
With an endroll of plus 141, this will put the creature into a 7 second hard round time and make it loose 35% of its hitpoints.....Which means with 33 mana the creature is dead..... Awesome....Works wonders with Triton Sentries...Triton Defenders...Greater Krynches...Earth Elementals....and yes it means it takes 33 mana to kill a silly kobold.

Some folks have told me. Screw all of that and just max out you CS and 717 evil eye every thing. It is true with a great cs evil eye is effective. However, it is considered a mental spell. Most non corporeal undead, quite a few Ithzir and probably some others are immune to that spell. If you don't get a high enough enroll it will either make the creature flee or stun it. There again it becomes a setup spell.

Peace

Whirlin

09-01-2013, 11:10 AM

Aimed 708 was one of Rhiesia Witch's favorite spells.

Nah, I can definitely see 708 as being badass... it was more a question of what's the next best alternative to non-aimed 708, and what's the relative cost of not training in spell aiming. I would view the cost associated with lack of SA would be more 708's to cast in order to get proper disablement. However, if those spell aiming ranks are going into CS boosting... the CS penalty may be less material if you were to train for CS.

With an endroll of plus 141, this will put the creature into a 7 second hard round time and make it loose 35% of its hitpoints.....Which means with 33 mana the creature is dead..... Awesome....Works wonders with Triton Sentries...Triton Defenders...Greater Krynches...Earth Elementals....and yes it means it takes 33 mana to kill a silly kobold.

With your emphasis on both 708 and 711, I'm surprised in your post a few back that you'd still recommend 52 ranks in Demonology before going with necromancy. While I agree with 52 ranks of Demonology first, I think the argument could be made for a strong, early necromancy build, if you're gonna pick up spell aiming, and subsequently use 708 often.

Some folks have told me. Screw all of that and just max out you CS and 717 evil eye every thing. It is true with a great cs evil eye is effective.

Most of the time I've heard this is for a GoS post-cap Sorc. It's supposed to be incredibly effective to clear warcamps, as 717 doesn't invoke the shroud. The strategy also leads to a large amount of overkill, and subsequently is a great method for storing necrotic energy. It's not a bad strategy, but it does require a pretty ridiculous CS.

Tisket

09-01-2013, 11:59 AM

You guys quit changing the subject. This thread is about me being mean to Rojo and Allereli because they have vaginas.

Gizmo

09-01-2013, 03:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhBM7H-ggvY

zhelas

09-01-2013, 05:45 PM

With your emphasis on both 708 and 711, I'm surprised in your post a few back that you'd still recommend 52 ranks in Demonology before going with necromancy. While I agree with 52 ranks of Demonology first, I think the argument could be made for a strong, early necromancy build, if you're gonna pick up spell aiming, and subsequently use 708 often.

Most of the time I've heard this is for a GoS post-cap Sorc. It's supposed to be incredibly effective to clear warcamps, as 717 doesn't invoke the shroud. The strategy also leads to a large amount of overkill, and subsequently is a great method for storing necrotic energy. It's not a bad strategy, but it does require a pretty ridiculous CS.

Sorcerers have the best disabling spells and the best means for crowd control. So in my opinion why not take advantage of them....Everyone's hunting style is different.

For me it was about getting the best out of defense. So this is why i mentioned Demonology first. I would then pick up the Necromancy rank to boost up my effectiveness with Pain.

When I trained Zhelas pre cap, I had him 1.5x in Sorcery Lores. This isn't for everyone. But I wanted to use spell 730 and be effective with 711. So yes zhelas has 52 ranks of Demonology and 100 ranks of Necromancy.

As for 717:

With a high CS like Shimmerain has on Teras. I believe he got it up to 580? He can walk around Nelemar and cast 717 on almost all of the creatures. But one has to understand that he is way post cap and has a TON of enhancives.

Side note with Spell Aiming:

There is another Sorcerer, and I can't remember his name, I think his player is still around. He built his Sorcerer for effectiveness for Focused Implosion. He trained in MOC as a result when he casts focused implosion on the swarming grimswarm all of them get stunned with one cast. Focused Implosion doesn't effect the shroud. He has posted either some hunting logs here on PC or on the Officials. His name begins with a M. I appologize for not remembering the name.

zhelas

09-01-2013, 05:54 PM

You guys quit changing the subject. This thread is about me being mean to Rojo and Allereli because they have vaginas.

:popcorn:

Jeril

09-01-2013, 08:22 PM

You are thinking of Moredin who used FI to great affect in warcamps. But outside of warcamps where the good loot is found in the chests using FI like that leaves one rather poor, so it isn't that great of an option.

As far as CS goes, sure you can get by without having it maxed, but having it maxed can make things a lot easier, which has been Whirlin's point. Having a character like that is far from what most people consider fun though which is why it is mostly postcap sorcerers with rather large exp totals who are 3x in spells. Draithe is the only sorcerer I can think of who had capped with a full 3x spells in prime, I am sure he isn't the first but he is the only one I know of to do so while I've played.

Also, all the cat fighting should be done in a pool of jello or something equally interesting and streamed for our viewing pleasure.

Tisket

09-01-2013, 08:26 PM

Also, all the cat fighting should be done in a pool of jello or something equally interesting and streamed for our viewing pleasure.

I've already suggested that all the men who squabble do just that. Alas, no takers. I think you will find that your suggestion has even less likelihood of success.

tyrant-201

09-01-2013, 08:32 PM

Also, all the cat fighting should be done in a pool of jello or something equally interesting and streamed for our viewing pleasure.

They're not young enough for you bro.

Wheelerm

09-01-2013, 09:33 PM

Okay, so I went back and reread the entire thread and have come to the conclusion that there are many paths, each equally effective which seem to be highly dependent on your playing preference. Based on what I have read, you guys have helped me to recalibrate what I want. With that in mind, I will try to be as specific as possible about what I hope to achieve and try to tailor the training plan accordingly with you, the more experienced player base.

So, here is my list of things I want to accomplish.

1. Be able to hunt at my level, or a little over my level. Right now, I am underhunting by about 7 levels. I know I say I hunt in the Tree Spirit area, but bear in mind that I'm really there for the monks and happen to run into the occasional Tree Spirit. Either way, they are both under me by about 7 levels. The treasure payout and experience gained is pretty low and frustrating...this will also affect how much I have to hunt to build up necrotic energy for ensorcelling, so it's pretty important to me.
2. Be able to do item 1 above alone. My other characters hunt in groups, but I play this character so rarely that he doesn't make too many friends. I am not opposed to group hunting, I just don't have that opportunity.
3. Be able to do ensorcelling. This is the most important secondary skill to me. I want it so that I can ensorcell gear for my other characters. Thanks to Allerili for pointing out that INT is a major stat for ensorcelling.

The following items are things that would be nice to have, but are definitely not necessary. This list is not in any particular order, nor exhaustive.

1. Scroll infusion. I have been practicing with it for some time and have come to the conclusion that it requires too many components and too much bookkeeping to be "fun." It is something that I might would want to do if this were my main character who I spent most of my time with, but given the circumstances this is more of a "nice if I can afford it" thing. The only real reason I would want it is because scrolls are lighter than wands, orbs, etc...
2. Not have to carry around wands/orbs/embeddables. I have a wizard and empath on two other accounts. The wizard gives me defensive spells, a disk, strength, and behaves as a battery. The empath keeps me healed, provides blues so I don't waste my mana spelling up, and also acts as a battery. I am not completely opposed to carrying orbs, but if I can avoid it - it would be nice.
3. Maximizing phasing. Let's face it, disk space runs out and I have to carry boxes before my mind is full. There are a couple of ways to mitigate this. I could hunt at level or over-hunt a little bit, making me have to rest sooner, further decreasing the likelihood that I will be carrying boxes around, or I could phase boxes more effectively to make them even lighter than I do right now. Maybe addressing Items 1 and 2 from the must haves will automatically fix this issue.
4. Be able to bolt. My empath was severely gimped by not being able to bolt, but he is level 73 and the critters he was fighting were pretty susceptible to bolt spells (or maybe the more accurate way of saying this is that they were better at warding). This sorcerer is not really in that box yet (I don't think he is, anyway)...the things he hunts seem to be pretty bad at warding. Now, if by moving up to like-level mobs means that they may require some bolting spells, then move this wish up to a requirement.

------------------------------

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to read this thread and provide your feedback (and in some cases pushback). When this sorcerer was at lower levels, I thought I knew how to train him, but it seems that the sorcerer profession is a little more complicated than I gave it credit for. I will post my training plan here to hopefully make it easier for you to provide your suggestions, but I'm pretty sure it will leave you scratching your heads.

AU: 8 ranks
MOC: dropped completely
PF: 1x
Climb/Swim: 0.5x each for now. Understanding that I know about what I'll need for higher levels, but will fixskill again if I have to by the time this becomes an issue.
Percep: 0.5x
AS: 1x
MIU: 1x
HP: 1x
SA: 1x
EMC: 1x
SMC: 24 ranks
MnE: 1x
MnS: 0.5x
Sorc: 1x
SL - Demon: 28 ranks
SL - Necro: 5 ranks

Jeril

09-01-2013, 10:42 PM

To maximize your sorcerer CS you want to have 425, +21 in sorcerer spells, then 2/3 your level in MnE before training more sorcerer spells. You get +1 CS from secondary circles at 1, 4, 7, 10, 13 ranks, ect. Once you have 425 you get +1 CS from it every four levels. MnS spells play a minor part in your CS but are important for DS/TD, once you get 120 they stop adding to your TD but they will continue to add to your DS as you need, having 125/130 is also decent utility, so something to keep in mind. I'd suggest you get up to 430 then work on having 120 by 50 at the latest, followed by 440 at 60 then go from there.

Why 5 ranks of necromancy exactly?

While mana controls do help give you more mana I also don't think they are worth the training points, and my sorcerer only has the 20 ranks of EMC just for sharing. I know the mana controls have other uses as well but not something I'm going to worry about until far post cap. Off hand I know they affect the cost of FI, mana pulse/spellup, multicasts, and how much mana it takes to infuse. Decide if these things are worth it to you.

Spell aim - Unless you decided to do something like warcamping it is very unlikely that bolting will ever be the better option over your spells. People say it is an all or nothing skill and it is in regards to bolting in the later levels, but even being 1x in it makes a difference with FI and aimed limb disruption.

Arcane symbols - Save training this skill until you decide to do scroll infusion or if you do plan on using scrolls a lot

MIU - A bit of the same, train this only if you plan on using magic items a lot, small statues, gold coins, ect. Quartz orbs actually don't count as they require none and last 5 minutes regardless of training.

Harness power - If you feel you don't have enough mana 2x it until you get 100 ranks then stop. At that point you'd only be missing a few CS points and it would be giving you 104 + mana between wracking and the increase in max mana would also mean increased mana per pulse.

Ensorcell - My sorcerer is actually better at it then someone who is 1x in their secondary magical skills because sorcerer spells are a primary factor and weighted much more heavily.

zhelas

09-01-2013, 11:46 PM

You are thinking of Moredin who used FI to great affect in warcamps. But outside of warcamps where the good loot is found in the chests using FI like that leaves one rather poor, so it isn't that great of an option.

You would be correct sir! His build was a mutant type of build but as you said he was extremely successful.

Warcamp box are terrible and this makes me sad.

zhelas

09-02-2013, 12:25 AM

Makes me wonder if your sorcerer would be better off with a shield and brawl build.

You get a Nice DS by carrying a shield.
You will never be disarmed.
Things like MIU and Arcane symbols are not that important to you.
You aren't going to be 1x in both EMC and SMC.

Base build would be.

1x Brawl
.5x to 1x in Shields
1x Harness power
2x to 2.5x in spells.
With the extra points you can pick up some magical ranks to help round of your character..or train in anything else you want.

Fit in your Sorcerer lores.. Physical Fitness... Climbing and Swiming Ranks .. become a skinner. Do what you would like.

Dayko

09-02-2013, 12:28 AM

Jeril

09-02-2013, 12:34 AM

As a sorcerer the training points needed to be 1x in brawling is the same as 20 triple spell ranks, if those ranks were put into MnS you'd see the same gains in DS as well as increased CS in MnS and longer durations from those spells. Shield training also eats up points while runestaves are basically free DS.

I agree with that last point though, Do what you like. I guess it really shouldn't be much of a surprise but when I am helping people with how to train their characters figuring out what they like is always the hardest part.

zhelas

09-02-2013, 12:37 AM

That build would be great if Voln Fu still existed

You would still be able to open cast. Evarin/Fallen used to have this build. I believe he said it yielded about 50 extra points of DS. He wasn't a volner. So Voln Fu was never an option. He may have even carried an enchanted brawling weapon.

Shoot if Brawling is too expensive make it a sword or dagger and train in edge weapons.

Jenovadeathe used to carry a shield and had a sword that would make folks eyes bleed when they had to read its description.

zhelas

09-02-2013, 12:42 AM

Shield training also eats up points while runestaves are basically free DS.

This is why I haven't converted Zhelas over to carrying a shield. Quite a few folks have tried to convince me over time. For me personally giving up the magical ranks was never an option.

I do get frustrated everytime I get Disarmed in Nelemar and die. Doesn't happen a lot but I revisit the shield build.

So a post cap goal is to get 5 ranks in CMAN Disarm and Cunning Defense. It isn't perfect and it is very expensive.

The GMs recomend 8 magical ranks per train with a runestaff. The norm is about 10 with folks.

I believe zhelas is about 14 ranks per train now since being post cap.

Is there a real difference between using a shield and runestaff? It really depends on what you want to do as fun.

Jeril

09-02-2013, 12:54 AM

zhelas

09-02-2013, 12:59 AM

With as many magical ranks a level as you have, at most 20 DS in offensive against melee, but you'd see a difference of at least 50-60 against ranged. And using a runestaff you'd see more DS the closer you are to defensive vs what you'd get from shield/brawl.

All I can say is. Training in combat maneuvers as a pure is painful.

Try and convince Shimmerain to get rid of his shield. :)

Jeril

09-02-2013, 01:04 AM

I'm training in spells as a warrior, I'm going to win that one every time. Shimmerain has about as much exp as I do, he can easily afford to train brawl/shield for better offensive DS.

Nattor

09-02-2013, 01:49 AM

The answer is easy.

GoS+ 702 + 515 = win

The only reason I cast anything else is the really rare one I can't hit.

Jeril

09-02-2013, 02:18 AM

You are leaning on a wizard spell to win, what kind of sorcerer are you?!

Whirlin

09-02-2013, 11:30 AM

Sorcs are interesting, in that none of their DS from their own spells come from Evade... Therefore, the equation comes down to a simple Runestaff Parry versus Shield Block evaluation. So... Here's the breakdown at 6, 8, 10 magic ranks versus shield at level 100:

Because of this, Tower shield would be the best.
Assumed 0 Stat bonuses, because its more equal, 4x shield versus 4x runestaff.

I also did some quick tests, and I couldn't find any additional DS associated with having an open hand in addition to the normal blocking calculation. Historically, I believe there may have been a +20 in there, but I think that may be gone with brawling... which... also doesn't appear to have a known DS calculation.

Shield|Runestaff 6|Runestaff 8|Runestaff 10|Runestaff 12|Runestaff 15
Offensive|84|51|61|71|79|86
Guarded|119|74|84|94|102|109
Defensive|128|80|90|100|107|115

Whirlin

09-02-2013, 11:45 AM

Sorcs are interesting, in that none of their DS from their own spells come from Evade... Therefore, the equation comes down to a simple Runestaff Parry versus Shield Block evaluation. So... Here's the breakdown at 6, 8, 10 magic ranks versus shield at level 100:

Because of this, Tower shield would be the best.
Assumed 0 Stat bonuses, because its more equal, 4x shield versus 4x runestaff.

I also did some quick tests, and I couldn't find any additional DS associated with having an open hand in addition to the normal blocking calculation. Historically, I believe there may have been a +20 in there, but I think that may be gone with brawling... which... also doesn't appear to have a known DS calculation.

Shield|Runestaff 6|Runestaff 8|Runestaff 10|Runestaff 12|Runestaff 15
Offensive|evil|maths|stahp|it|wut|are
Guarded|u|doin|stahp|whirlin!|stahp|it
Defensive|maths|is|the|devil|like|foosball

I mean... both ways of training are good enough to get you to cap... stop looking behind the curtains of the maths, and do what you want.

Tgo01

09-02-2013, 11:47 AM

Whirlin, I'm pretty sure something is wrong with your table there.

Allereli

09-02-2013, 01:18 PM

Is there a real difference between using a shield and runestaff? It really depends on what you want to do as fun.

with a shield you lose the offensive benefits of ensorcell. JD's blade was hilarious

2. Not have to carry around wands/orbs/embeddables. I have a wizard and empath on two other accounts. The wizard gives me defensive spells, a disk, strength, and behaves as a battery. The empath keeps me healed, provides blues so I don't waste my mana spelling up, and also acts as a battery. I am not completely opposed to carrying orbs, but if I can avoid it - it would be nice.

Wheelerm - you mention at the top of your post that you want to solo hunt your sorcerer, but you're MAing, so your training options drastically change if you're hunting with them. If you're hunting with a wizard do the 515/702 combo, or even 701 if you want to skin. If you don't want to use orbs I highly recommend the 1711 codexes from RtCF. They're amazing, they last a really long time. Infused and charged completely they have 119 usable charges. I'm still on my first one, refilled at least 3x, looks like this when detected:

You wave your stone at a weathered leather-bound codex.
As the stone passes over the scroll, you sense:
(1711) Mystic Focus with one charge remaining and the potential to add many charges.
(1711) Mystic Focus with many charges remaining and the potential to add a few charges.
(1711) Mystic Focus with very many charges remaining and the potential to add no charges.
(1711) Mystic Focus with very many charges remaining and the potential to add no charges.
(1711) Mystic Focus with many charges remaining and the potential to add a number of charges.
(1711) Mystic Focus with very many charges remaining and the potential to add no charges.

Tgo01

09-02-2013, 02:04 PM

If you don't want to use orbs I highly recommend the 1711 codexes from RtCF.

Pretty sure you meant codices.

Malisai

09-03-2013, 04:17 AM

Okay, so I went back and reread the entire thread and have come to the conclusion that there are many paths, each equally effective which seem to be highly dependent on your playing preference. Based on what I have read, you guys have helped me to recalibrate what I want. With that in mind, I will try to be as specific as possible about what I hope to achieve and try to tailor the training plan accordingly with you, the more experienced player base.

So, here is my list of things I want to accomplish.

1. Be able to hunt at my level, or a little over my level. Right now, I am underhunting by about 7 levels. I know I say I hunt in the Tree Spirit area, but bear in mind that I'm really there for the monks and happen to run into the occasional Tree Spirit. Either way, they are both under me by about 7 levels. The treasure payout and experience gained is pretty low and frustrating...this will also affect how much I have to hunt to build up necrotic energy for ensorcelling, so it's pretty important to me.
2. Be able to do item 1 above alone. My other characters hunt in groups, but I play this character so rarely that he doesn't make too many friends. I am not opposed to group hunting, I just don't have that opportunity.
3. Be able to do ensorcelling. This is the most important secondary skill to me. I want it so that I can ensorcell gear for my other characters. Thanks to Allerili for pointing out that INT is a major stat for ensorcelling.

The following items are things that would be nice to have, but are definitely not necessary. This list is not in any particular order, nor exhaustive.

1. Scroll infusion. I have been practicing with it for some time and have come to the conclusion that it requires too many components and too much bookkeeping to be "fun." It is something that I might would want to do if this were my main character who I spent most of my time with, but given the circumstances this is more of a "nice if I can afford it" thing. The only real reason I would want it is because scrolls are lighter than wands, orbs, etc...
2. Not have to carry around wands/orbs/embeddables. I have a wizard and empath on two other accounts. The wizard gives me defensive spells, a disk, strength, and behaves as a battery. The empath keeps me healed, provides blues so I don't waste my mana spelling up, and also acts as a battery. I am not completely opposed to carrying orbs, but if I can avoid it - it would be nice.
3. Maximizing phasing. Let's face it, disk space runs out and I have to carry boxes before my mind is full. There are a couple of ways to mitigate this. I could hunt at level or over-hunt a little bit, making me have to rest sooner, further decreasing the likelihood that I will be carrying boxes around, or I could phase boxes more effectively to make them even lighter than I do right now. Maybe addressing Items 1 and 2 from the must haves will automatically fix this issue.
4. Be able to bolt. My empath was severely gimped by not being able to bolt, but he is level 73 and the critters he was fighting were pretty susceptible to bolt spells (or maybe the more accurate way of saying this is that they were better at warding). This sorcerer is not really in that box yet (I don't think he is, anyway)...the things he hunts seem to be pretty bad at warding. Now, if by moving up to like-level mobs means that they may require some bolting spells, then move this wish up to a requirement.

Hey I just saw this. Here is what I think. If you dont mind spending more money on another fixstat once you are capped put your stats and such for around 70.

2.5x spells
1x MIu
1x AS
2x SA
1x HP
4-8 ranks armor
24 ish ranks for max HP
1x lores
climb/swim/perception as needed
Starting around 70ish start increasing PF to 1x, or increase climb/swim more. Before 70ish you dont need more PF than for max hp.

This will get you everything you want to do above. Its the build i used until around 95ish 6x armor and 4x staff. I could hunt like level and slightly above. Depending on the mob sometimes up hunt a good bit. 2x SA will take out most critters by way of 708, no worring about durations and such. Then if you just want quick hunts and dont want to worry about treasure then FI. Its nice to have and honestly if your stats are set for 70 you have the TPs to do it. I like demon lore for leveling. 704 is great for treasure, 712 will save your butt if you need it. Demon lore will allow you to use 713, however you dont need to bolt. My sorcerer never bolted as a main hunting spell even though he was able, but then 713 didnt come out until he was well on his way so it might not count. 711 is nice but honestly I dont think you need it for leveling before you hit mid 90s. At least I didnt use it until i hit plane 4. before that i did not miss using it.

Currently hunting the rift with 30ish climb/swim, i dont know if you need more if you will hunt other areas. Leveling up it wasnt an issue.

I hunted self spelled all the way to cap. So if you have a wizard and empath spell tanking you then you shouldnt have any issues.

You can do 714 if you want, you will have trouble with the harder ones, but thats not a big deal. 735, you might have to stick with the simple stuff to make it work.

Whirlin

09-03-2013, 09:26 AM

with a shield you lose the offensive benefits of ensorcell. JD's blade was hilarious

That's an amazing point.

What the calculations didn't take into account, which I think Tg01 pointed out before, is that the 102 ranks of Shield use end up being about 10 spell ranks (at the 3rd spell research cost). If dumped into MnS, that'd be a straight +10 DS, which while still nets positive on the Shield, greatly diminishes the margins. But, the point of training shield use is to negate Disarm, not really for DS. But, as Allereli pointed out, you would be reducing your effectiveness on the offensive side due to the lack of ensorcell and spells.

I wouldn't recommend it when leveling, and even post-cap, The 1326 PTP for 102 ranks of shield use could be used towards 47 Combat Maneuver ranks, which could unlock rank 4 Disarm, which should be some decent defense against disarm... and it will also provide some additional CMAN defense just from training in the skill.

Wheelerm - you mention at the top of your post that you want to solo hunt your sorcerer, but you're MAing, so your training options drastically change if you're hunting with them. If you're hunting with a wizard do the 515/702 combo
Yes... this confused me as well. But, I think to meet all of your criteria, Jeril's training plan will actually work well for you.

Although I want to say this bluntly... You will likely have mana problems for a while longer. Even if you rush to 100 ranks of Harness Power, you should still not anticipate getting completely fried every hunt without utilizing your mana batteries. Like I mentioned early on, critters below 30/40 weren't converted to GS4 consistently. Their AS and TDs are very inflated compared to what they rightfully should, while their DSs lags behind greatly. It will be difficult for another 10 levels or so. However, since you want to pick up spell aiming, you'll be able to utilize Curse of the Star with wizard wands to help complete your hunts.

Once you unlock ensorcell, how far fried/unfried/whatnot you get with your hunts really doesn't matter... You'll basically want to be hunting 24/7, fried or not, in order to store necro energy. I think I gain about 60-70k xp/week just to cap out necro energy each week. This is when you should be happy that it's on another account!

Wheelerm

12-05-2017, 04:47 PM

AU: 8 ranks
MOC: dropped completely
PF: 1x
Climb/Swim: 0.5x each for now. Understanding that I know about what I'll need for higher levels, but will fixskill again if I have to by the time this becomes an issue.
Percep: 0.5x
AS: 1x
MIU: 1x
HP: 1x
SA: 1x
EMC: 1x
SMC: 24 ranks
MnE: 1x
MnS: 0.5x
Sorc: 1x
SL - Demon: 28 ranks
SL - Necro: 5 ranks

^^^ Current Training at Level 32

-------------------------------

I quit playing the game shortly after starting this thread for a long while, as I had a lot of RL things to take care of, but it's all behind me now and I've recently reopened my account.

I also consolidated my multiple accounts into one account, so I am no longer MAing.

Reading back through this thread again, this is the training plan I've concluded using the spreadsheet:

At Level 32:

AU: 8 Ranks
PF: 24 Ranks (I don't know why I didn't notice that more PF != more Hit Points)
Climbing/Swimming: 0.5X (will fixskill annually accordingly to adjust as needed to access hunting areas)
Perception: 0.5X
AS: 1X
MIU: 1X
HP: 1X
SA: (Dropped)
EMC: 1X
SMC: 1X
MinE: 20 Ranks (Stopping here for now)
MinS: 11 Ranks (Working to get to 2/3 level, will achieve at Level 55, then will 1X for life while dumping all extra points in MinE beginning at Level 56)
Sorc: 52 Ranks (Maintaining +20 ranks for life, so 1x beginning at level 33)
SL - Demon: 50 Ranks
SL - Necro: 1 Rank

Leaves 2 PTP / 0 MTP

Thoughts?

Tenser

12-05-2017, 06:07 PM

Perception and PF helps with defense vs. combat manuevers...the prime reason why sorcerer's die. Due to that, I would suggest 1x in both PF and perception.

Getting to 425 and 430 is very important for MnE. 425 gives a nice CS boost and 430 is essential defense. Also, 120 in the MnS is a nice DS/TD boost. I would shoot for 430, 120, then get +21 ranks of sorcerer spells over your level.

Why the demonology ranks? Necromancy helps with gaining energy for ensorcelling (which will be silvers in your pocket) AND helps your 705 spell do more damage. The lores should come behind the spell training at least getting to 430, 120, and +21 sorcerer spells above level...after that is when I would train lores.

malmuddy

12-06-2017, 01:36 PM

In my opinion you want to go to at least 425 in MnE. I think all wizard and sorcerer guides stress to have 425 at level 25. While it seems like a great bonus, defenses on most creatures over level 25 are balanced assuming that you have 425 running. So not having it would make your life much harder than it needs to be. I have personally always aimed for 430 at 30 as well, but 430 may be less critical, depending where/what you hunt and what gear and access to outside spells you have.

Wheelerm

12-08-2017, 09:50 AM

Thanks a lot for the advice.

So after I reach +21 Sorcerer Ranks, I'll maintain +21 for life. Then I start to work to get MnE up to 1x and then maintain that for life, and then finally I start to work to get MnS up to 2/3x and maintain that for life.

I run into a Training Point deficit at level 58 with this plan. What are the most important things to maintain and what can be sacrificed until post cap to eliminate the TP deficit? Obviously, maintaining +21 Sorc, 1x MnE, and 2/3x MnS are important, and I need to get my Necro ranks up as quickly as possible and it would be nice to get some Demonology, too...

Throttling the SMC back doesn't really amount to much savings, but throttling PF does at 8/0 per rank. It's becoming more and more attractive to throttle it back to a max of 0.5x, which still leaves me in a deficit. I can eliminate the deficit completely by stopping training SMC at level 70 (giving me a total of 71 ranks at cap).

Here's the training plan at Level 32 with most of your advice incorporated (0.5x PF, but 1x in perception):

AU: 8 Ranks
PF: 0.5X
Climbing/Swimming: 0.5X each (will fixskill adjust annually as needed to access hunting areas)
Perception: 1X
AS: 1X
MIU: 1X
HP: 1X
EMC: 1X
SMC: 1X
MnE: 30 ranks (Come back to this after +21 Sorc and work to get to 1X, then 1x for life to maintain and work on MnS to 2/3x)
MnS: 20 ranks (Come back to this after +21 Sorc and 1X MnE to get to 2/3x)
Sorc: 39 Ranks (scheduled to hit +21 at level 39, then will 1X beginning at level 40 to maintain +21 for life and work on MnE to level)
SL - Necro: 13 ranks
SL - Demon: 0 ranks

This leaves me with 190 PTP and 0 MTP.

I will hit +21 Sorc at Level 39. I will hit 1x MnE at Level 58. I will hit 2/3x MnS at cap.

Here's what the plan looks like at cap:

AU: 8 Ranks
PF: 0.5X
Climbing/Swimming: 0.5X (same as before, will adjust annually as needed)
Perception: 1X
MIU: 1X
HP: 1X
EMC: 1X
SMC: 71 Ranks
MnE: 101 Ranks (1X)
MnS: 66 Ranks (2/3X)
Sorc: 121 Ranks (+21)
SL - Demon: 25 Ranks
SL - Necro: 53 Ranks

Leaving 4 PTP/0 MTP