Monk Spell Confusion

[sentral]

Anyone have alot of success with this spell? Trying to find out if its really worth it to train in Mental Lore Telepathy to make it better. Anyone have any idea how your Influence bonus would factor in? Maybe it's a second per bonus point of the spell lasting longer? Thanks

[Aluvius]

The problem is that you can't really get enough minor mental spells to be able to keep up your CS without gimping yourself in other key areas. At the very least you're going to want to pick up 120 and I just can't see going much past 1220 either, I'd rather spend the points elsewhere although you would pick up some gains for 1208 and other spells by continuing with minor mental.

[cwolff]

Anyone have alot of success with this spell? Trying to find out if its really worth it to train in Mental Lore Telepathy to make it better. Anyone have any idea how your Influence bonus would factor in? Maybe it's a second per bonus point of the spell lasting longer? Thanks

It's good to keep in mind that there are no Monk spells. Savants will be able to hunt effectively with them, when/if they are introduced but for the monk it's mostly valuable for the defense and utility.

[Willington]

So...was Monks worth the wait?

[Donquix]

So...was Monks worth the wait?

do you want to be a warrior that doesn't have visible plate armor and lose cva in place of getting an armor concealer?

...if so.....

[Aluvius]

Monks are a good class and UAC is a good system. The problems arise from melding these new things with the existing game mechanics and classes. Monks are missing tools to be able to excel with either UAC or the other melee combat systems.

The class needs access to more cman's, personally I'd say every cman that both a rogue and warrior can access. Offensive martial stances not connected to UAC would be nice (dervish and executioner's). Monk's have very low TWC and MOC costs, it would be great to be able to leverage these a bit more.

Either lore costs need to be cheaper for 1202 or the innate monk boost per level needs to be adjusted. The lack of CvA progression is probably too harsh. I dunno, its a good news bad news thing with 1202 .. currently monks have traded very high DS and maneuver defense for much worse effective TD. Even going hard for 120 will only make up about half the difference between a 1202 monk and a full plate wearing character. Another option would be to drop down armor use and maybe shield use tp costs to rogue levels.

I think they make very nice archer's, decent 2 hand/pole/twc builds but sadly are 2nd tier UAC users (as are just about all open UAC practitioners). They're just in an odd position of being a semi-square, no access to their own spell list so the majority of the minor mental list is just as useless to them as the majority of the minor spiritual is to everyone else. Yet they do have a lot of good qualities, I think they could make excellent open light fighters if just adjusted a bit. Burst of Agility and Perfect Self are addictive cman's.

The sad truth is that when you mix their weakness (low TD) with the weakness of open UAC (difficulty managing mobs) it becomes frustrating. I had a lot more fun when I fixskilled my monk to a THW/MOC build. :)

I hope they get some tweaking, but there seems to be little interest in that happening for the foreseeable future. I'd say a decent class but with potential to be awesome.

[Gibreficul]

Good post Aluvius. There's a couple other things I want to bring up.

First is that just because 2 systems are released at the same time (Monks and UAC) doesn't always mean they're the best thing to couple up.

Second is that just because a profession has spells doesn't mean they should be training in them. Monks are squares, and while I have no experience with one, I can probably guess that a monk could do well without ever training in spells until the mid to upper levels.

I can refer to something not related, but parallel. The game mechanics for rogues have been making light armor more and more palatable. I disagree, personally, and really think the rogue does best in heavy armor.

Has anyone decided to train a monk with no spells and see how that goes?

[Donquix]

Good post Aluvius. There's a couple other things I want to bring up.

First is that just because 2 systems are released at the same time (Monks and UAC) doesn't always mean they're the best thing to couple up.

Second is that just because a profession has spells doesn't mean they should be training in them. Monks are squares, and while I have no experience with one, I can probably guess that a monk could do well without ever training in spells until the mid to upper levels.

I can refer to something not related, but parallel. The game mechanics for rogues have been making light armor more and more palatable. I disagree, personally, and really think the rogue does best in heavy armor.

Has anyone decided to train a monk with no spells and see how that goes?

In general sure but...you have to admit monks and UAC were intended to be released as very much complimentary. It was still just a massive copout and failure in my opinion to not make them semis.

open UAC and monks are great by modern gemstone design paradigms, except nothing else is balanced with the same rules.

[cwolff]

Monks are squares, and while I have no experience with one, I can probably guess that a monk could do well without ever training in spells until the mid to upper levels.

A monk without Minor Mental would be quite frustrating. The defensive benefits from that circle are outstanding and armor costs are 10 PTP's.

No one has been able to really come up with the one thing that Monks need to be a great class but they are definitely missing something. Most of the debate revolves around 1202 and no CvA benefit. Aluvius also hit on a sore spot. There are so many CMans which you would think a Monk should have but they are only available to rogues and warriors.

[Aluvius]

Yeah that's the problem, the tp costs for progressing in armor or mental lore for 1202 are so high that the benefit from spells looks much better value-wise. I guess though if one were to do it I'd recommend training in armor instead of lores. You'll need to do one or the other though since you'll be getting hit a lot more without spells. If you're talking full outside spells though, then yeah they powerlevel just as well as anything else and you could probably skip them all for awhile.

I've done a full 180 after leveling my monks, at first I thought 1202 progression would be paramount with all of its upsides and its one glaring downside. Now I think more than 5 ranks until level 50 when you could get into torso chain is a waste. I just use 1202 without any lores on my level 29 monk. Armor use is tempting, but I'd have to lose the 30 ranks of MOC to do it.

That being said, I think "real" chain mail asg13 might be a sweet spot for monks, you get the jump in CvA from brig which is substantial without having to invest too much into armor use ranks (50 for minimum MnM hindrance). The CvA goes from 2 to -6 moving from brig to chain, AP goes up 1 as do the minor mental/spiritual hindrances. Seems worth it. Augmented chain would also be viable but at 90 ranks that's a ways farther down the road. I just can't see spending the points to more than single in armor use, there's just so many other skills monks can acquire for low to medium tp costs.

[sentral]

look iron skin is the way to go. It betters your chances of disarm with Brace. My Monk is doing just fine going semi, and since my logic is so high, about a bonus 38 right now and still have another 10 points to go till i hit the enhansive ceiling. I can also use symbol of supremacy and heavy orbs. Vertigo should be a viable option for me if i can keep my logic high enough, as a room controll spell . Also its possible creature wont be able to ward better against mental magic then spiritual magics. I can pretty well cast Thought Lash against vhourkas and moor wights and i'am only level 29.

[Donquix]

look iron skin is the way to go. It betters your chances of disarm with Brace. My Monk is doing just fine going semi, and since my logic is so high, about a bonus 38 right now and still have another 10 points to go till i hit the enhansive ceiling. I can also use symbol of supremacy and heavy orbs. Vertigo should be a viable option for me if i can keep my logic high enough, as a room controll spell . Also its possible creature wont be able to ward better against mental magic then spiritual magics. I can pretty well cast Thought Lash against vhourkas and moor wights and i'am only level 29.

Every training path works under 50.

[sentral]

well well see then