Ambushing THW Rogue Build

[Wheelerm]

Could you guys take a look at this training plan and let me know what problems you see with it? I have been playing with the Tsoran Spreadsheet, and it looks like my ambushing RT will be 5 seconds (up from 4 sec with Short Sword/Gauche build), but I will have the TPs I need to get my minimum of 4 ranks of MnE, which I'm sorely needing (might even be able to pick up a few more). I can keep ambushing, but I'll have to drop dodging back to 1x.

AU: 35 ranks (wearing brig)
THW: 2x
CM: 1.5x
MOC: 7 ranks
Ambush: 2x
PF: 1.5x
Dodging: 1x
Climbing: 25 ranks
Swimming 20 ranks
Disarm Traps: 2x
Picking Locks: 2x
Stalking and Hiding: 2x
Perception: 2x
AS: 7 ranks
MIU: 8 ranks
HP: 4 ranks
MnE: 4 ranks

CMANS:

Vanish: 3 ranks
Shadow Mastery: 5 ranks
Silent Strike: 3 ranks

Guild skills:

Sweep
Subdue
Footstomp

Ambushing RT with Mattock: 5 sec

[Mtenda]

The lowest possible ambush round time with any two hander is going to be 6 seconds. Haste imbeds are your friend. Stockpike them and use them often. Drop MOC. Get Dodge to 2x. If you are planning on picking and and swinging two handers then you are just going to have to sacrifice some CM to make it work. 1x CM would be fine because two handers hit plenty hard enough especially when combined with the benefits of ambushing from hiding. Keep in mind that the higher in level you get the more you will want to exceed 2x pick/disarm. Also, you will eventually want to get into plate class armor for the CvA. Warding defense is a rogue's greatest weakness.

[Wheelerm]

With Mtenda's comments in mind:

AU: 1x
THW: 2x
CM: 1x
MOC: dropped (0 ranks)
Ambush: 2x
PF: 1.5x
Dodge: 2x
Climbing: 25 ranks
Swimming: 20 ranks
Disarm: 2x (at level 50 begin 3x)
Picking Locks: 2x (at level 50 begin 3x)
Stalking & Hiding: 2x
Perception: 2x
AS: 7 ranks
MIU: 8 ranks
HP: 4 ranks
MnE: 4 ranks

I'm at level 48 right now so the 3x picking/disarming will begin soon. Are there any other suggestions?

Thanks.

[DaCapn]

I would ditch silent strike. If you have vanish, you don't really need it. I did a build without picking but had 410 (with about 60-80 mana). I feel like it was especially helpful for the THW build but I'll never do a rogue without 410 anymore. Also, if you're short on points, you can get by just fine with 1.5x ambush.

[m444w]

Drop ambush to 1x or 1.5x (you won't notice a difference) and put the points towards dodge or ewave, at 2x dodge in brig you better be able to RT lock a room before you get much older.

Basically, I concur with DaCaptn

[drunksolo]

2x picking/disarming with self lore will open the vast majority of your own boxes across the game, I'd hold off on tripling those until I had 2x PF and 2x CM.

Also, MOC is pretty awesome. I'd try to work that back in (over time, not necessarily dropping anything from that plan, just getting them back eventually). Your DS is going to tank fast even against just 2 critters without some ranks in it, and spamming mstrikes after ewaving is a good way to get things back in hand if you start to get overwhelmed.

[m444w]

You get a free ambush after an ewave, since you can hide in cast rt but not attack. Couple that with vanish, and you are far more efficient at clearing a room than mstriking.

[cwolff]

Each rank of MOC is helping a little bit. You might want to either go for 15 (3 unfocused strikes) or dial it back to 5. IMO a rogue should be able to handle two creatures in one room, even with no MOC ranks. When you start getting 4-5 creatures even the FOF reduction of 15 ranks won't help too much. You're going to have to manage the room by disabling them all, kill quickly or retreat.

Climbing and swimming may be a place where you can save TP's for a number of levels especially if you are in GoS though I imagine your HP would be higher if that were the case so you're probably in Voln because even the basic signs can quickly deplete that mana pool.

Perception along with ambush can be scaled back if other TP's are needed.

The benefit of brig is that it's light armor with decent defense. I'd expect a THW build will be slow (with a handaxe my HK rogue with good agi/dex is 6 seconds with an aimed ambush from hiding) and you're giving up a shield so this may be an area that you really want to start 2x'ing to get into MBP.

Are you going to be relying on outside spell ups, haste imbeds etc...

[Shaps]

I'm basing this off of you being level 50, since you are very close and I like round numbers:

For a baseline I used the stat calculator based off of a Giantman Rogue set for max stats at 100. Effectively using the lowest TP's over the course of training for this example. (I have no idea what your actual numbers are)

Level 0 TP's/Level: 45/44
Level 50 TP's/Level: 53/47

1x AU - 5/0
2x THW - 18/6
1x CM - 4/4
2x AMB - 6/3
1x PF - 3/0
2x DODGE - 6/3
2x S+H - 3/3
2x DISARM - 3/3
2x PICK - 3/3
2x PERC - 0/3

Total: 51/29

With the above points: You get everything you want (from what I'm seeing that you are asking for). Over the course of 50 trains you would have enough MP's to get 404 easily.

I could crunch the numbers more, but I consider the above to provide the most overall best hunting/lockpick ability up to 50. From 50-60 you could adjust slightly to add in SR/MIU/MOC/H/Climb/SwimP or whatever else you want. As every train from 50-60 you would have baseline 2/18 TP's leftover.

At 50 if you wanted more points to flush out other skills, the easiest thing to do would be to stop training Ambush from 50-60 (you would already be at 204 ranks @ 50), freeing up 6/3 points per train. Which would give you 8/21 free points per train over 10 levels - to put towards 3x Pick/Disarm, MOC, or whatever else you would like.

[Wheelerm]

A lot of great advice so far, so I appreciate it.

A couple of things - I never hunt alone and my hunting partners are a sorcerer, a wizard, and a war mage. Locking the room in RT is generally not a problem, and I'm awash in defensive spells and get haste quite a bit, but not always. I can get embeds without a problem (I have a wizard that can make them).

In exchange for all that my friends do for me in the way of spells, I pick all our boxes for us, provide my wit and charm, and give them 401. :P

However, I am almost at the point where I need lockpick enhance more frequently, and I would rather self cast it for the bonus.

Having up to 410 would be epic, IMHO, but I don't really need it and will probably just plod my way there.

I do think MOC is important and I would rather not lose it, or at least keep a minimum of 5 ranks.

And finally, I converted over from CoL to Voln primarily for the ability to bless my own weapons. The brig I am wearing is that awesome Voln brig from coraesine, so I get those benefits.

I'll play with the spreadsheet some more by implementing all of your advice and repost. I still have my fix skills, so nothing has been made permanent yet.

[Wheelerm]

After playing with the spreadsheet some more:

AU: 1x
THW: 2x
CM: 1x
MOC: 4 ranks
Ambush: 1x
PF: 1.5x
Dodge: 2x
Disarm: 2x
Picking: 2x
S+H: 2x
Perc: 2x
AS: 7 ranks
MIU: 8 ranks
HP: 10 ranks
MnE: 7 ranks
Climb: 25 ranks
Swim: 20 ranks

I guess my biggest question is how sure we are that 1x of ambush will be fine. At my level, that's only 49 ranks. I'm trying to think back to level 25, and I think I was doing okay with ambushing at 49 ranks, but I was also hunting less experienced critters.

[DaCapn]

I started with a THW build around level 30 with 410 and was 1x ambush and it worked just fine. Pretty tight on points and I wasn't doing lockpicking either.

[loxe]

Not a rogue but I have a lvl 40 ranger that ambushes with a 4x hcw yoribo (quarterstaff) with 1x ambush and cman and does really well.

[Jace Solo]

As an offshoot questions, can you open ambush with two short swords at 4 seconds?

[Wheelerm]

Yes, as I was working the numbers on the spreadsheet, I found these points tight, but doable. Turns out TWC is a little cheaper TP wise, so I'm going to stick with the TWC style this year, but since I adjusted my other skills (perception, ambush, MOC, and CM), I was able to pick up MnE to 407. I have enough points left that I could get up to 410, but I wanted to make sure that 1x ambush was working. If it didn't, I would just get it back up to 1.5x. So far, so good. 1x ambush seems to be plenty. I guess it's the number of ranks that really matters, and not how often you really train in it per level? Seems like around 50 ranks is where it begins to give good consistent results?

I'll migrate over to a THW build when my next annual fix skills rolls around.

And I did drop silent strike. It was really an RP tool more than anything, but since I moved CM back to 1x, I couldn't keep it anyway. I also lost the fifth rank of shadow mastery, but I'll be able to get it back in 5 levels.

Thanks for the great advice. I am glad to know I was able to scale back some of my training to finally pick up some MnE.

[Wheelerm]

As an offshoot questions, can you open ambush with two short swords at 4 seconds?

Open ambush? I'm not sure. I use a short-sword-based in my main hand and a gauche in my off hand and get 5 sec ambush RT. I believe unfocused attacks in the open are at 4 sec? I think you pick up one sec just by ambushing (open or hidden). I'll check it out and post what I get. I honestly don't pay attention to it.

[Mtenda]

As an offshoot questions, can you open ambush with two short swords at 4 seconds?

Open ambushing follows the same laws as hide/ambush as far as round time goes so 5 seconds would be the minimum possible for two short swords. I wouldn't recommend open ambushing with a short sword or any one handed weapon for that matter. The best thing about ambushing from hiding is the loads of crit weighting it adds.

The problem I have with choosing TWC over THW is that if you miss your target with your first swing then your second swing will automatically move to the next body location so you won't be hitting the head/neck/eye with either swing on an off target attack. It really only works out when you can't find an opening with the first swing. At least with THW you are likely to severely disable the creature when off target. Sword/blunt and "bored" seems like a more attractive option to me than TWC with all the TD shields floating around now.

[Mtenda]

1x ambush seems to be plenty. I guess it's the number of ranks that really matters, and not how often you really train in it per level? Seems like around 50 ranks is where it begins to give good consistent results?

I'm not sure about that. In the Gemstone 3 days it was all about skill bonus. Half of your skill bonus gave you the percentage chance of hitting your target before other variables were factored in(weapon size, height, etc). The other half of your skill bonus went toward your crit weighting. If I remember correctly, the bonus to crit weighting was much larger than it is now(it's still significant) but there was no DS pushdown. I'm not certain but I think the percentage part was unchanged when GSIV came around. I have always assumed that nowadays the other half of your ambush skill was somehow split up between pushdown and weighting which is why I am hesitant to agree with those going less than 2x ambush.

[Wheelerm]

I could be wrong about this, but from what I've read on ambushing, training in the ambush skill increases the damage done (via stance pushdown and weighting), but does not affect the accuracy of the "called shot."

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#ambush

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Ambush

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Ambush_saved_post

From what I've seen, I dropped back from 2x ambushing to 1x ambushing and don't have a problem with making the called shot. However, I know that when I was first starting out with ambush (I have had the ambush build since level 0), I would aim at the head and hit the arm or leg if I hit anything at all. It wasn't til about level 25 that my called shots were beginning to go where I wanted them to go (approximately 50 ranks of ambush at this time), which is why I sort of believe that the number of ranks of the Ambush skill somewhat affects the accuracy, but at some point beyond this number then additional training is doing more for the damage. I'll need more time to assess the actual damage variation with the lower training.

[Whirlin]

I could be wrong about this, but from what I've read on ambushing, training in the ambush skill increases the damage done (via stance pushdown and weighting), but does not affect the accuracy of the "called shot."

From what I've seen, I dropped back from 2x ambushing to 1x ambushing and don't have a problem with making the called shot. However, I know that when I was first starting out with ambush (I have had the ambush build since level 0), I would aim at the head and hit the arm or leg if I hit anything at all. It wasn't til about level 25 that my called shots were beginning to go where I wanted them to go (approximately 50 ranks of ambush at this time), which is why I sort of believe that the number of ranks of the Ambush skill somewhat affects the accuracy, but at some point beyond this number then additional training is doing more for the damage. I'll need more time to assess the actual damage variation with the lower training.

No Krakii access at work... but when not hidden, Ambush is used in conjunction with CMAN to determine if you hit your mark. But Ambush is used solely in the first roll to ensure that you even conclude the attack with an AS/DS resolution, and not a "Can't find opening" RT.

There are other factors in hitting your mark though... Like if you're a halfling aiming for a giant's head... you're not gonna hit it. It's mainly relative size, but there are a few other factors including lighting, creature-specific things, etc...

When hidden, it's a bit more complicated, as there are also the stance pushdown and phantom weighting attributes of ambush training. I do not believe Riltus' tests were ever conclusive as to whether phantom weighting on weapons stacked with additional ambushing phantom weighting and/or weighting on the weapon itself. It got a little sidetracked when he determined that each weapon may have phantom damage weighting outside of ambushing, which also was never finished.

I've been meaning to go back and finish the testing... but just haven't had the time.

[Wheelerm]

The problem I have with choosing TWC over THW is that if you miss your target with your first swing then your second swing will automatically move to the next body location so you won't be hitting the head/neck/eye with either swing on an off target attack. It really only works out when you can't find an opening with the first swing. At least with THW you are likely to severely disable the creature when off target. Sword/blunt and "bored" seems like a more attractive option to me than TWC with all the TD shields floating around now.

Yes, at lower levels, TWC is a bitch because of the misses and such. However, at level 50, I never miss anymore. I ambush the leg first to get them prone, vanish, and then ambush the neck to finish them off. I kill all like-level creatures in two attacks. Sometimes I just skip the legging and ambush the head or neck and get a one-shot kill about 75% of the time. The other 25% of the time, I just hide and try again and generally does it. When I feel like having fun, I use a dagger in my right and a gauche in my left and ambush eyes and kill them in one shot. When I feel bored, I'll kill it slowly by chopping off each of the limbs one at a time and letting it bleed out.

The TWC build is actually very hard to like at low levels, but is actually kind of fun at higher levels.

Having said that I do have a warrior that is THW, and you are absolutely right that the THW style is much more effective in terms of doing big damage quickly. It was my THW warrior that got me to thinking about making my rogue go to THW. The main reason I decided to wait this time was because I wasn't sure I wanted to have to manage the additional RT, and I was a little hesitant to change too many variables at once. I even made sure to take ambushing down to 1x and only go up to 407 MnE just to make sure that 1x of ambush was enough. I have enough points in reserve that I could add the .5x of ambush if I feel I need to, or I can go on up to 410 if I want. I knew I could instantly add ranks to skills, but that I would have to migrate away skills if I decided to unlearn ranks.

[Mtenda]

I could be wrong about this, but from what I've read on ambushing, training in the ambush skill increases the damage done (via stance pushdown and weighting), but does not affect the accuracy of the "called shot."

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#ambush

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Ambush

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Ambush_saved_post

From what I've seen, I dropped back from 2x ambushing to 1x ambushing and don't have a problem with making the called shot. However, I know that when I was first starting out with ambush (I have had the ambush build since level 0), I would aim at the head and hit the arm or leg if I hit anything at all. It wasn't til about level 25 that my called shots were beginning to go where I wanted them to go (approximately 50 ranks of ambush at this time), which is why I sort of believe that the number of ranks of the Ambush skill somewhat affects the accuracy, but at some point beyond this number then additional training is doing more for the damage. I'll need more time to assess the actual damage variation with the lower training.

The play.net site is inaccurate on pretty much everything regarding ambush or really just everything. Ambush skill is the only thing factored in when ambushing from hiding. From the open it's a combination of ambush and CM. The second and third links you provided confirm that. I think it's been said by a GM that there will always be at least a 5% chance of failure when aiming but even at level 25 with 2x Ambush you would not be at 95% accuracy. If my skill bonus theory is correct then what you would be experiencing is diminishing returns since each rank after forty would increase accuracy by 0.5% whereas the first ten ranks would increase it by 2.5% per rank. IMHO, it's still worth it to double in ambush and increase your accuracy by 1% each level up to level 48 and then continue training even if it is just for the pushdown and crit weighting. Pushdown is determined by your ambush skill vs. creature level/perception skill so there will always be times where 2x ambush could do what 1x won't.

[Jeril]

I wouldn't recommend open ambushing with a short sword or any one handed weapon for that matter.

I think this is a silly statement, warriors and paladins often use one handed weapons and do just fine and rogues are capable of acquiring a similar skill set if they wanted to. It may not be very 'roguely' but it can be effective. Years ago I hunted with Vyst and there where times he didn't bother to hide at all, he could crit kill taints, beings, witches, warlocks, and I think gremlocks too just as easily from the open as he could from hiding. He was using a hcw dagger but something like a handaxe would have worked just as well. Shize, when he was playing, was just about as deadly from the open with his twin handaxes as he from hiding as well. Now with the OPs build, I certainly wouldn't recommend open ambushing as the low AS from only being 1x in combat maneuvers would hurt, as well as the lack of significant MoC ranks.

As far as ambush goes I think the biggest thing is level vs level, at 1x you'll notice as things start to get above your level they'll become more difficult to get the push down and the phantom weighting against. While hitting the aimed location is just a skill bonus check getting the push down and weighting is more like twc strikes with your off hand, you need x amount of training to be effective against a target whos level is compared to yours.

[Wheelerm]

So, here is what I did. Based on what you have posted so far, it sounds like I need to tweak some more. As a reminder, my goal has shifted from THW this year. I will remain TWC, but need to pick up at least to 404.

AU: 1x
Edged Weapons: 2x
TWC: 2x
Cman: 1x
MoC: 5 ranks
Ambush: 1x
PF: 1.5x
Dodge: 2x
Disarm: 2x
Picking: 2x
S&H: 2x
Percep: 1.5x
AS: 7 ranks
MIU: 8 ranks
HP: 10 ranks
MnE: 7 ranks
Climbing: 25 ranks
Swimming: 20 ranks

Available TPs: PTP: 275 / MTP: 0

I can afford to go 1.5x on ambush right now with the available TPs and have 87/0 left over. I cannot afford to go back to 2x with this build

Pulling back MnE to 404 and 5 ranks of HP. This might be the best option. It moves the CM up to 1.5x, Ambush up to 1.5x, gives me 22 mana to work with, and leaves me with 15/0 TPs. The good news here is that my magic training should be done for a while and I can focus on upping the CMan, ambushing, and MoC beginning next level. I realize I won't be able to get the first benefit of FoF reduction until 10 ranks of MoC, but I simply can't afford that right now.

Unless...If I had my wizard embed disarm enhance and lockpick enhance into some jewelry and I activate the jewelry, do the mechanics treat it as self-cast, or does it treat it as if someone cast the DE/LE spells on me? This might be an option...

[Jeril]

While you don't get the full benefit until 10 ranks you get half benefit at 5 ranks, the MoC thresholds for FoF work in increments, not an all or nothing deal, so each rank actually helps you in that regard.

[Wheelerm]

Yeah, so should I move MnE to 404, reduce HP to 5 ranks to do the alternate plan I posted? Also what's the deal with the embeddables? Will it look like a self-cast or not?

Thanks.

[Ralanaa]

You can get away with four ranks of shadow mastery and save yourself some CMAN points. My rogue only has four ranks and he has no issues. Also, I believe the only benefit you gain from another rank of shadow mastery would be a bit more stealth and a 1sec off sneak round time. As a 2x hider at lvl 48 you should be well good at hiding from most any like level critter (not to mention they critters will be hacking at your partners, not searching for you).

Sorry, used my phone to type this. :)

[Mtenda]

Will it look like a self-cast or not?

No

[Mtenda]

I think this is a silly statement, warriors and paladins often use one handed weapons and do just fine and rogues are capable of acquiring a similar skill set if they wanted to. It may not be very 'roguely' but it can be effective. Years ago I hunted with Vyst and there where times he didn't bother to hide at all, he could crit kill taints, beings, witches, warlocks, and I think gremlocks too just as easily from the open as he could from hiding. He was using a hcw dagger.

I didn't say it wasn't possible. I just wouldn't recommend it. Even in the ideal situation like the one you laid out with Vyst(light or no armor, crit weighted dagger), it's not equally as effective.


Now with the OPs build, I certainly wouldn't recommend open ambushing as the low AS from only being 1x in combat maneuvers would hurt, as well as the lack of significant MoC ranks.

I don't think OP was ever really considering it.

[Jeril]

it's not equally as effective.

Dead is dead, I fail to see how that isn't effective.

[Mtenda]

Dead is dead, I fail to see how that isn't effective.

Not as effective. That is, on average, it will require more set up and more swings to achieve the desired result.

My point was only that with hiding and ambushing the only setup you usually need is to hide. Even with something as weak as a dagger. From the open you need a much bigger or more weighted weapon to have the same efficiency.

It's different for paladins and warriors. They have a different menu of setup. They don't get the professional bonus to hiding that rogues and rangers get so it's really not a realistic option to hide/ambush as a main attack form through most of the game. Also, big weapons are crazy cheap to train in.

There are situations where a rogue might do it but I just wouldn't recommend it as a bread and butter since hiding is so cheap to train and the professional bonus to it is huge.