Need help please.

[Domacett]

Hello.

I'm really enjoying Gemstone for the roleplay it provides. I have to admit that I don't enjoy planning out a character build and "playing" with training options. I'm not very good at it.

I would like to make a hero that is heavily armored and carries a big weapon. The idea of a noble paladin is very attractive. The whole weapon bonding idea seems very cool.

I would like some experienced help in planning out my hero from birth to retirement, so that I don't end up with a gimp that spends more time bleeding than fighting.

I was reading the thread here: (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?83318-Finally-50!) and I saw a lot of interesting points being made. I have to admit that I was a bit lost with all the jargon and game-lingo and contractions. I'm an old man, I get confused easily.

Would someone with experience as a successful paladin please guide me with a training schedule I can follow as I work through the levels as a paladin?

I think I would like to use a two-handed weapon, but not if it seriously impacts my survivability not having a shield. So I'll happily obey if I'm told shields are more fun and less frustrating. I also don't want to focus too much on magic. And finally, I think I like the idea of joining the Sunfist people (is that the GoS I keep seeing?).

Thank you, and I appreciate any help you can offer.

[SHAFT]

Have you checked out krakiipedia.org? The PC and krakiipedia are the 2 best places to go for info.

[Domacett]

I have. Krakiipedia is a godsend! I just couldn't find the guidance I wanted there.

[Dragoon]

Yes GoS is Guardians of Sunfist. It's the newest society, but all the stuffs you get from them are pretty nice. Only thing is to be prepared to be eaten whilst in warcamps if you die.

Paladins should typically .6xish in spells because while they are the most physical semi, it's still nice to be able to blast something with Divine strike (1615) and make them kneel before you. I stopped training in spells when I had 120 and 1640. Although later on I did acquire five more paladin (1600s) spell ranks for a bit more CS. This was when I was about level 90. Although spell training is up to you. 1640 (paladin raise spell) is ok at best. It's only good when there isn't a cleric and you need a field raise.

Now to the meat and potatoes of being a paladin. being THW (two handed weapons) can be a problem is some areas of hunting, but with enough training it might not matter. I've used a shield my entire time and I do decently, although I'm sure I could oneshot things more often if I had a tank of a weapon. For early training I recommend 2xing in armor for a while until you can get into chain hauberk, (110 armor ranks) slack off for a little while and then get the last 40 once you start getting into some dangerous hunting grounds. Always, always always ALWAYS try to be at least 1x in combat maneuvers because every two ranks you get 1 AS. Also it helps to have a nice selection of combat techniques (feint disarm etc) to harry your targets. Also, Physical fitness (PF) is extremely helpful to all classes because it increases your health, stamina, and is the main factor in Redux. Redux is complicated, so we won't get into it. Just know that it's important to reducing damage and wounds when you get hit.

Let's see what else.......
Oh yes, the gear. Everyone is nothing if it was not for their gear (sorta). Full plate armor is what all paladins should shoot for. (150 Armor ranks to be trained for hinderance and paladin spells). I've made it to cap with a 4x weapons, but I'm looking into getting a higher enchant weapon to make life easier. Decent gear costs a pretty silver and you can expect to spend anywhere from 5-20m silver on a nice suit of armor. I'll spare you the details of the high end gear, but some suits are pretty insane.

Thought came back to me, as a THW you need dodge training, since you don't have a shield to protect you, you need to generate DS from dodge ranks (1 DS per two ranks).
I don't have my expertise when it comes to THW but I'm sure someone else can chime in with their build.

That's all I have for now, feel free to ask me some questions. :)

[Shaps]

Great insight so far from the previous posters. The thing with a Paladin is, play how you envision him.

Minimum skills for all Paladins: 1x PF, 1x CM, 2x Armor use, 2x Weapon Type, 1x HP, 1x Perception, 1x Shield or Dodge (depending on weapon), .75x spells - Do at least that and you can kill whatever.

There are a number of posts regarding us shield users recently, so check those out.

THW - I'd recommend a minimum of:
2x THW (12/6), 2x Armor (9/0), 2x PF (9/0), 1.5x Dodge (10/6), 1x CM (5/4), 1x Perc (0/3) for total of : 45/19

You could switch to 1.5x CM and to 1x Dodge if you wanted; but we generate enough AS as is, I personally think the extra dodge would be more beneficial.

Fit in MOC (to 30 ranks); Spells .75x (Get to at least 1635 - Minor Spirits are nice but not needed at all till later); Climb/Swim/Lores as you get free points; Extra ranks of armor to get to some type of Plate as soon as possible, even MBP

[Domacett]

Excellent advice.

Is there is a big difference in survivability between shield-using paladins and THW dodging paladins?

[Dragoon]

Having a shield increases your defense by 20 and then plus whatever the enchant of the shield is. So a 4x shield will increase your defense by 40. Also, shield ranks also help increase your defenses as well. Shield size is also a factor; bigger shields grant higher block chances, but lower your mobility. Without a shield you miss out on the block portion of the evade, block, parry system (EBP). Without a shield your Evade and Parry portion will be greater, but you also miss out on the increased defense against elemental bolt/ball spells as well as ranged attacks. With a shield you gain increased defense against these things, but you become more susceptible to critter maneuvers. It's a trade off for either side. Paladins have a spell that increases block chance (1609) so without a shield you won't be able to get any use out of that spell. However if you don't use a shield you can use Zealout (1617) which boost your AS by a good margain, but you lose defense from using the spell.

I prefer the shield route, but there are others that swear by big weapons to kill stuff before they get hit. Then again that's what wearing plate armor is for, you take less damage from most attacks anyway. If you want to be a tank, use a shield. If you want to lay waste to everything, use a big weapon.

[Shaps]

I agree with what Dragoon said above.

I used pole-arms for my first 45 trains and loved them. With the CMAN Shield additions though, shields became very intriguing. I tried it out, and ended up liking the playstyle more. Rough numbers as an example:

As a pole-arm user - spelled up: AS around 400 / DS around 260-270 in offensive.

As an OHE/Shield user - spelled up: AS around 400 / DS around 350-370 in offensive.

I run Zealot just because I can with no worries about AS/DS checks. So DS normally around 320-340 in offensive with AS around 420 at 50 trains.

The big change was never having to worry about ball/bolt spells anymore. I'd get eaten up by those if I wasn't careful, now I never think twice about ball/bolt casters.

With a pole-arm I would take 2-3 unaimed swings to kill something. Now it takes me 3-5 unaimed swings.

[Domacett]

That's pretty compelling information for shield use.

Thanks again guys.

[Dragoon]

As a OHB/shield user at cap being fully 2x in shield and 1x in dodge with a 6x tower shield. My defense in offensive ranges from 420 (yes really) to 450 depending if I have ranger spells. In defensive my DS is around 725. My AS with being 1.4x in CMs is 521 with a 4x bonded weapon. I have another 35 AS to gain from the remaining ranks.

[Whirlin]

Paladin has many training paths available. None are really considered the 'best'... they're all different, with different strengths, different weaknesses.

Shield builds are defensive. You will likely never have any DS problems, issues with ranged attacks, etc. However, your kill speed will be substantially slower.

THW/Polearm builds are more offensive. You may have DS problems, and may rely on redux. Your kill speed will be substantially faster than a shield build.

Both have strengths against CMANs relative to many other classes, but race is an important factor in CMAN defense as well. Both builds have different emphasis on stat allocations.

They're different, but both effective... It really matters what/how YOU want to play. There is no wow-esque mathematically superior build. Otherwise I'd have found it!

[Lord Orbstar]

The nice thing about shields is you can cast Divine Shield that will help you and with a shield you can be a better protector for your group. The new manuevers for shield are nice, and if you get an shield made of eonake you can use put Guiding Light spell on it and bash monsters with it and your weapon. I use a +35 morningstar and it is a nice weapon (wish it was a perfect forged player made weapon tho...). Make sure to at least get up to three spells in the minor spirit spell list so you can cast spirit defense (#103). That gives you +10 to your defense. Do not worry about getting lores (religion and bless) until you are older and in plate armor. In addition to the advice above I would recommend you train 1x or .75x in perception too.

My paladin used to use a really nice lance. THen I was dual weilding morningstars. That is a fun route, but you need to have a wizard spelling you up plus I had 100 million silvers worth of gear on to make it fun. Now...Shield and OHB. I personally do not like undead, but Voln is a very rich roleplay opporutnity and has been beefed up so it is really nice too. GoS is a pain in the ass with the short amount of time the "signs" last on you. My paladin is Council of Light. The new armor available with voln-only abilities are REALLY cool and enhance the Voln experience. If I had a suit...I would drop CoL and go Voln despite my dislike of undead.

[cwolff]

I just switched to blunt and board. Using a sanctified 4x mace. It seems to be weak, real weak. Someone suggested a star or a hammer. I'm looking at the DF's and they really aren't too far off what a mace is.

Reading this I'm thinking that instead of buying a different weapon I may as well just keep the mace for now and work on OHB forging to try to make a perfect weapon for him to bond.

What do you guys think? Is there much of a difference in the blunts?

[tyrant-201]

Always heard morning-stars were one of the stronger options. I can tell you from the 7x perfect Arulisse had it worked pretty damn well, but had nothing to compare it to.

[thefarmer]

Make sure to at least get up to three spells in the minor spirit spell list so you can cast spirit defense (#103). That gives you +10 to your defense. Do not worry about getting lores (religion and bless) until you are older and in plate armor.


Yeah... no.

103 is easy as shit to get. And every paladin needs to worry about lores for Divine Strike/Judgement. The sooner the better. ESPECIALLY if they're not using a 2hd/polearm.

[lordsmo]

I just switched to blunt and board. Using a sanctified 4x mace. It seems to be weak, real weak. Someone suggested a star or a hammer. I'm looking at the DF's and they really aren't too far off what a mace is.

Reading this I'm thinking that instead of buying a different weapon I may as well just keep the mace for now and work on OHB forging to try to make a perfect weapon for him to bond.

What do you guys think? Is there much of a difference in the blunts?

Morning star damage factor is 22% higher than a mace against brig, and 29% higher against plate. The difference is definitely noticeable, especially against plate, since that is where one handed weapons really struggle. If you are attacking unaimed the morning star is far better.

The mace does have a couple of advantages however. It only does crush damage, which has a lower fatal crit threshold for headshots. It is also slightly easier to aim. If you are consistently generating enough raw damage to crit-kill things - typically the case against lighter armors - these two factors can turn the argument in favor of the mace. Again this only applies to aimed head/neckshots. If you are not aiming, or if you are aiming for the leg, the star is the better choice.

Against plate though, crit-killing with a mace is going to be extremely difficult. At level 53, using a 4x SCW mace, running zealot and major bane I still have a tough time crit-killing prone stone giants with headshots. With a 5x SCW star it's much more doable. Against stone trolls however (hauberk equivalent armor), I can one-shot them fairly consistently with the mace, without zealot or major bane.

For one-handed weapons I'm a big proponent of crit-weighted weapons and aimed shots. Open mstriking is something I used to do a lot back when I used a two-handed weapon, but it's a lot less useful with lower-damage one-handed weapons. While an open mstrike with a maul will often disable/kill everything in the room, an open mstrike with a morning star will often just cause minor injuries. Thinning the field by disabling or killing one creature with an aimed swing or a focused mstrike is typically a better choice I find.



For the OP, the basic paladin build is as follows:

2x weapon type of your choice, 2x, armor use, 1x combat maneuvers, 1x physical fitness, 1x harness power, 2x shield if using edged or blunt weapons, 1x dodge if using two-handed or polearm weapons, 1x multi-opponent combat (until you achieve the thresholds you want - see krakiipedia), and some spells.

Most people train harder in spells at first (typically 0.75x-1x) until they learn the spells they want, and then slow down spell training and use the points to beef up other skills. Typical spell goals are going to be 1635 and 120.

Many people, including myself, recommend 2x physical fitness instead of 1x for a variety of reasons. The krakiipedia article on physical fitness will explain many of these.

Climbing and swimming should be trained in as needed to access the hunting areas you encounter.

Perception should be trained in as well. Some ranks are required to access certain areas. It also helps with a variety of other things, like maneuver defence, spotting bandit traps etc... Many people recommend being 1x in this for most classes. My paladin only has 20 ranks at level 53 however.

Spiritual lores are trained in by paladins primarily to augment our best attack/disabling spell 1615, as well as it's multi-target version 1630. Common thresholds to achieve are 10 ranks of spiritual lore: summoning to unlock the 4th target for 1630, and 25 ranks of spiritual lore: religion to maximize the chance of 1615/1630 to force your targets to kneel. Krakiipedia will explain more of this. Personally, my lores are 11 summoning (10 for above reason, and 11th rank since it was a threshold for 1605) and 26 religion (25 for above reason, and 26th rank since it was a threshold for 1610). I will likely stay pat with these lores for some time and focus on other skills.

For armor use there are different thresholds depending on personal choice and playing style:

90 ranks will allow you to wear metal breastplate armor with the minimum spell hindrance for paladin spells. Minor spirit spells will be uncastable in the field however, without first casting 1603.

110 ranks of armor use will allow you to wear chain hauberk with minimum hindrance for both paladin and minor spirit spells, OR augmented breastplate with minimum hindrance for paladin spells only.

150 ranks of armor use will allow you to wear full plate armor with minimum hindrance for paladin spells. Again, minor spirit circle spells will be uncastable in the field without preparing with 1603 before each cast.

All of the above armor choices are viable, and have different pros and cons. Full plate provides the best protection from physical attacks, but has the largest action penalty (which reduces your ability to dodge maneuver based attacks). All of the different plate class armors provide a good bonus to defending against CS-based warding spels by having strongly negative CvAs. Metal breatsplate provides very good overall protection with the minimum amount of training point investment. Hauberk provides less protection than the plate-class armors, but has the advantage of allowing you to cast minor spirit spells in the field. I am currently wearing metal breastplate with 90 ranks of armor, but may train more later.


Once you have achieved all this, extra training points will start accumulating, and you can put these towards whatever you want. One-handed weapon users will typically have more points available than two-handed weapon users. The most popular choice at this stage is to begin pushing combat maneuvers above 1x. For two-handed/polearm builds you could start pushing dodge above 1x. Or you could pick up ancillary skills for RP and/or bounty purposes, such as first aid and survival. Or more spells for more CS or ressurrecting abilites.

My own personal advice at this stage, however, (especially for one-handed builds) is to train up to about 20 ranks of ambush, for the purpose of making aimed strikes. Two-handed weapons can kill quickly enough with unaimed attacks, but one-handed weapon users will notice a dramatic increase in killing speed once you are able to consistently land headshots. The reason I suggest getting some ambush instead of more combat maneuvers, is that while both of skills increase your aiming ability, it is the BONUS in these skills (not the ranks) that is factored in, meaning that the marginal benefit of each rank is greater when the total number of ranks is lower. While everything else that I've said prior to this last paragraph is probably universally agreed upon, getting ambush before going above 1x in CM is potentially controversial. I am certain that some people will disagree with my reasoning, and that's fair enough. It's really your choice at this point.

In any event, I am sure you'll have fun with your paladin regardless of what path you choose.

[cwolff]

Ya, I see that now. I was looking at the AvD.

So I read about the DF and understand that calculation. How does AvD factor in...or does it?

[thefarmer]

Ya, I see that now. I was looking at the AvD.

So I read about the DF and understand that calculation. How does AvD factor in...or does it?

Consider AvD 'free' enchants.

[Dragoon]

AvD from what I understand adds to your AS value. Perfect weapons add +3 to your weapons AvD as well as +6% DF. So that's why many people get a weapon forged and then go to merchants and have it weighted flared etc.

going back to the DF part....
Morning star damage factor is 22% higher than a mace against brig, and 29% higher against plate. The difference is definitely noticeable.

AvD and DF change against different classes of armor. It's like have a longsword against plate compared to having a mace against it. The mace is obviously going to do better because that's what maces were designed for: smashing heavy armor. The longsword was designed to be used against flesh leather armor and chain (thrusting attacks). There's an entire chart of AvDs and DFs for all the weapons against all the armors. I think Krakii has a good chart.

[cwolff]

Ya I'm looking at that matrix on krakiipedia. Going to do the math on this too.

A human robber is enraged by your attack!
You fire a gold-flecked scarlet arrow at a human robber!
AS: +310 vs DS: +181 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +24 = +195
... and hit for 46 points of damage!
Attack punctures the eye and connects with something really vital!

So AvD just gets added to the d100 roll.

Then you take the endroll -100 * DF = damage.

[lordsmo]

Ya I'm looking at that matrix on krakiipedia. Going to do the math on this too.

A human robber is enraged by your attack!
You fire a gold-flecked scarlet arrow at a human robber!
AS: +310 vs DS: +181 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +24 = +195
... and hit for 46 points of damage!
Attack punctures the eye and connects with something really vital!

So AvD just gets added to the d100 roll.

Then you take the endroll -100 * DF = damage.

Endroll-100*DF = raw damage. Then you divide by crit divisor to get the pre-randomization crit rank. Then you randomly get a crit rank between that pre-randomization rank and half (rounded up) of the prerandomization crit rank. Then you add the crit damage, which has been arduously tabled at great length on krakiipedia (mostly, or perhaps completely by Riltus I believe?). Again krakiipedia is an amazing resource that I wish was there when I first started. I remember basically just guessing my way though my first several characters, heh heh.

[lordsmo]

The other thing that hasn't really been discussed for the OP is race. In an ideal world, race would be purely a role-playing decision, but there are important mechanical differences between the races that you should be aware of. Important racial differences include hitpoints, encumbrance, and roundtime (especially while aiming or mstriking). The respective krakiipedia articles are worth examing.

Stat placement is a discussion to enter into after you have chosen your paladin's race.

For society, you mentioned wanting to join Sunfist. This is an excellent choice for a Paladin. Benefits include padding, weighting, 3-second herb healing, and good synergy between 1607 stamina for mana and Sunfist mana for stamina abilites. 2x physical fitness is recommended for Sunfist for stamina purposes.

CoL is the easiest to master, the abilities cost the least to keep running, and it generates the highest AS/DS benefit. (Technically Sunfist is equal, but in practise running all the sigils at once is expensive, whereas the benefits of CoL can be run constantly for effectively zero cost).

I am relatively unfamiliar with Voln. The new abilities seem cool, but some of the key abilities overlap with abilities a paladin already has: i.e. blessing your own weapon and disabling non-corp undead.

I personally believe Sunfist is the strongest choice for a Paladin mechanically.

[Whirlin]

Honestly... there's a lot more to the damage equation than is worth explaining to a novice player... it'll just make their head explode... It could have been it's own standalone guide. Especially when you get into topics like Redux's impact on crit divisors and phantom damage numbers.

[cwolff]

OH crap. I just realized I have a bunch of TP's and am 1x dodge and 1x shield. Dropping dodge in favor of shield, bumped up spells to 103 and 1625 which puts me squarely at 1x and now I have to figure out the SHIELD SPECIALIZATIONS. I'm thinking that this is an easy decision right now though. I'll work on shield focus for a bit. Anything else that's especially useful at this point?

BTW, anyone have a nice cheap Tower shield for sale?

[Lord Orbstar]

Charge. I hope you are using a Large or a Tower shield. I prefer the tower. I have shield strike, but (like everyone it seems) will be migrating out of it. And the Morningstar is far superior in my experience to the mace. I do not aim, so that is the key. Even when I did aim, i prefer the star. There is a Combat Manuever tht lets you choose the type of damage ur weapon does. I forget the name and am at work right now.

I also disagree with farmer on spells vs lores. I like be self sufficient with spells if possible. Lores ARE wonderful, especially religion lore, for a paladin. But to get in plate armor, you have to skimp on those. I was using 7x HCP (AsG 17) breastplate and had the Lore to make my foes kneel almost every time. I changed up to 6x HCP full plate (AsG20) which forced me to drop down lores and some MoC. It was worth it.

[cwolff]

Here's what I've got right now. I'm migrating out of Dodging in chunks and going up to 2x shield. Just bought a 4x morning star and am bidding on a 4x tower shield. I'm going to read up on the shield specializations and thinking that I may just max TOWER SHIELD FOCUS first then look at charge. Suggestions are appreciated.

(at level 27), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 175 75 75
Shield Use.........................| 143 43 43
Combat Maneuvers...................| 114 28 28
Blunt Weapons......................| 158 58 58
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 45 9 9
Physical Fitness...................| 117 29 29
Dodging............................| 114 28.572 20 1 day, 11 hours, 43 minutes
Harness Power......................| 111 27 27
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 30 6 6
Perception.........................| 25 5 5
Climbing...........................| 50 10 10
Swimming...........................| 50 10 10
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 3 3
Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 25 25

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Surge of Strength surge 2
Available Combat Maneuver Training Points: 19

[Shaps]

For shield CMAN's check: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Shield_specialization

I highly recommend 2 ranks of PWALL for all Paladins early on. From my testing and personal preference, I do not like Shield Bash or Shield Charge. The RT incurred is much better spent just hitting the thing with your weapon.

Feint is by far superior - 3 second RT and drops the defense and adds RT to a creature. 4 ranks will serve you fine for a good long while.

You're fine getting 3 ranks of Shield Specilization for quite awhile. It opens up other shield CMAN's and is mainly good for offensive manuevers as opposed to Defensive ones. Just depends what your focus is.

I'd also recommend going up to 1635 by 35 as well. Great get out of jail free card.

[Lord Orbstar]

Charge will knock them on their ass. Important fact. Honestly though, it is all just for flavor. Neither are necesary...we have spells and insanely high AS.

[Whirlin]

Shield bash is taken defensively... as Shield points are cheaper than CMAN, and both provide good CMAN Defenses against Shield Bash. It would be in poor choice not to take it. Shield bash is not an uncommon maneuver.

Cwolff: I actually recommend dropping even more dodge for more shield use. You're factor for dodge in full plate and using a tower shield ends up reducing it's effectiveness down to like... 13% (made up... due to not having krakii at work). While shield still provides something roughly like 3 trains per 1 DS in offensive. You'll end up with higher DS returns from 2x shield, 0x dodge than 1x, 1x. Not substantially... but I tested the numbers with a 60 paladin, and it was like, 7-8 DS higher in offensive with 2x shield rather than 1x shield, 1x dodge.

I wouldn't listen to Shaps's recommendation on 1635... you're already VERY highly trained in spells for your level, much higher than typical paladins which lean towards 2/3rds or less. I'd actually recommend skipping spells for a few levels, and bumping up Perception to level. Perception is a great defense against creature maneuvers. Maybe also snag a few more ranks in lores to prepare for 1630 and to boost 1615. But, that's up to you.

Maybe I'll do a paladin guide next... You guys are more receptive than sorcs, and I'm in the fortunate position where my brother plays a Paladin, and I've had the opportunity to theorycraft with him a bit.

[thefarmer]

I also disagree with farmer on spells vs lores. I like be self sufficient with spells if possible. Lores ARE wonderful, especially religion lore, for a paladin. But to get in plate armor, you have to skimp on those. I was using 7x HCP (AsG 17) breastplate and had the Lore to make my foes kneel almost every time. I changed up to 6x HCP full plate (AsG20) which forced me to drop down lores and some MoC. It was worth it.

10 DS is basically nothing when you're wearing MBP and fullplate. Toss in society skills and it's not even a drop in the bucket. You would have been just as successful with HCP MBP as the your HCP fullplate. If 10 DS is that important, get a few ranks of AS or MIU and keep the lore.





I wouldn't listen to Shaps's recommendation on 1635... you're already VERY highly trained in spells for your level, much higher than typical paladins which lean towards 2/3rds or less.


Then, to put it bluntly you're an idiot. Not getting 1635 at 35 is stupid advice.

edit: Having 1635 at 35 isn't VERY highly trained for a paladin of that level. It's more typical of 'most' paladins than not having it.

[cwolff]

Cwolff: I actually recommend dropping even more dodge for more shield use. You're factor for dodge in full plate and using a tower shield ends up reducing it's effectiveness

Ya I'm going down to 0 dodge ranks. Just doing it in smaller batches of migration.

[Whirlin]

Then, to put it bluntly you're an idiot. Not getting 1635 at 35 is stupid advice.

edit: Having 1635 at 35 isn't VERY highly trained for a paladin of that level. It's more typical of 'most' paladins than not having it.

Why is it necessary at 35? 35-45 are by far the easiest levels in Gemstone, especially for a hybrid. Critters ideal for hunting don't have combat maneuver attacks, and everything falls under a simple AS/DS roll, which are player-preferable at that level ever since the migration of GS3-GS4 creatures.

If you're warcamping at those levels, then you're likely in GoS and have Sigil of Escape which already offers similar capabilities as a 'get-out-of-death-free' maneuver, which decreases the relative benefit of 1635. If you're not in GoS, you're likely not warcamping, and you're hunting stupidly easy critters.

Is there something more that I'm missing with those 10 spell ranks regarding the potency of other paladin spells? Don't misunderstand, 1635 is an amazingly powerful spell, it's just that when given the relative difficulty of those spans of levels, I would prioritize other training over it for a faster short term gain, while still getting 1635 when it's more necessary, around 45-ish when you start fighting critters that actually pose some risk.

[Dragoon]

Charge. I hope you are using a Large or a Tower shield. I prefer the tower. I have shield strike, but (like everyone it seems) will be migrating out of it. And the Morningstar is far superior in my experience to the mace. I do not aim, so that is the key. Even when I did aim, i prefer the star. There is a Combat Manuever that lets you choose the type of damage ur weapon does. I forget the name and am at work right now.

Shield strike is actually pretty damn awesome. Same RT as a normal attack and you get a shield strike/bash and an attack off at the same time. I've one shot a lot of things because of the high stun chance of shield strike (and stuns reduce DS by about 50). Shield charge is very risky, has longer RT (seven seconds) and if you get a crap d100 (negative numbers I'm looking at you) you can end up on the ground with more RT. To me not worth it at all. I agree with the shield bash comment however of it being used defensively, rarely offensively. Also the Cman you are thinking of Whirlin is Precision. Two ranks, first being 75% of the time, second being all the time. (excluding aimed attacks)


Why is it necessary at 35? 35-45 are by far the easiest levels in Gemstone, especially for a hybrid. Critters ideal for hunting don't have combat maneuver attacks, and everything falls under a simple AS/DS roll, which are player-preferable at that level ever since the migration of GS3-GS4 creatures.
This^
At this point it's actually very important to get some extra TD and maybe a little more DS (103 107 respectively). The 100s are more important than a lot of people let on because of the TD bonuses they give. Granted the minor spirit sphere is so common you can just bother someone to cast them on you, but I like being self-sufficient so sue me.

I really don't agree with the 0x dodge recommendations... always been at least .5x in dodging myself up until 60 (strongholdish age) and then 1x dodge around 80 (bowels age). Now you might not being hunting that area, but it's dodge heavy critter attacks. (boil, stone fist, rock attacks, wrath of gods). Also, if using a large shield it's still worth having some dodge.

Once you hit around 50, you should at least have 1635 and 107 at most have 110 as well.

[lordsmo]

I really don't agree with the 0x dodge recommendations... always been at least .5x in dodging myself up until 60 (strongholdish age) and then 1x dodge around 80 (bowels age). Now you might not being hunting that area, but it's dodge heavy critter attacks. (boil, stone fist, rock attacks, wrath of gods). Also, if using a large shield it's still worth having some dodge.

It is a somewhat common misconception that dodge training will help you dodge these maneuvers. Dodge increases your DS and your chance of evading melee and ranged attacks, but has no effect whatsoever on dodging maneuvers such as boil earth, stone fist, the stone chunk/ice chunk/stone spitting thing various giants and trolls do, spike thorn, major ewave etc....

Edited to add: Physical fitness is the most important training factor in dodging these, followed in no particular order by combat maneuvers and perception.

[Whirlin]

I really don't agree with the 0x dodge recommendations... always been at least .5x in dodging myself up until 60 (strongholdish age) and then 1x dodge around 80 (bowels age). Now you might not being hunting that area, but it's dodge heavy critter attacks. (boil, stone fist, rock attacks, wrath of gods). Also, if using a large shield it's still worth having some dodge.

If you have the points... and we're talking a shieldy pallies, I'd still prioritize 2x shield use over dodge. By all means, that doesn't say don't train in any dodge at all... but I'd train in it after you're maxing out shield use. You get more DS, same redux, for 1 MTP lower (after conversion). Even then, while dodge MAY be involved in some CMANs (not 100% positive one way or the other), shield use is also factored into some cmans (probably nets out, overall). And as Smo posted, Perception, PF, and CMAN are usually stronger defenses anyway, so we're talking very marginal returns.

Dodge is always something you can dump TP in after you finish spells, 1.5x cman, and to a point where you're comfortable on lores.

[lordsmo]

Also, in terms of DS, some quick numbers: in offensive stance, wearing metal breastplate and carrying a tower shield, each dodge rank gets you about 0.3645 DS. Wearing full plate the figure is about 0.3362 DS per rank. With either armor type, (and again in offensive stance and carrying a tower shield) each shield use rank is getting you about 0.4333 DS.

Compounding this is the training point cost of the skills. The second rank per level of shield use is 6/0, vs. 5/3 for the first rank per level of dodge. This means that whichever direction you are converting your TPs in, 2x shield is always cheaper than 1x dodge and 1x shield (0/12 vs. 0/13 or 6/0 vs. 11/0).

It is, objectively speaking, a mistake to have any dodge ranks if you are less than 2x in shield use and use a tower shield. After you're 2x in shield use howver, adding dodge ranks is certainly a valid way to gain additional DS if you feel the TP investment is worth it.

[lordsmo]

Whirlin, you are a faster writer than me apparently, heh. Good post.

[Dragoon]

It is a somewhat common misconception that dodge training will help you dodge these maneuvers.
It really should, I mean it's not like you can block that Krynch rolling at you or block a big ass shot of water from a GWE. Well the elemental makes more sense to be able to block.. but still. Friggin GS logic man.

Typically I was 1.25x in cman and 1x in dodge after the bowels. I was always 2x in shield, even from the very get go. I finally did reach 2x PF in the bowels though. Which prolly is the reason I could stomp the snot out of them without having much risk as to dying than other folks down there.

[thefarmer]

Why is it necessary at 35? 35-45 are by far the easiest levels in Gemstone, especially for a hybrid. Critters ideal for hunting don't have combat maneuver attacks, and everything falls under a simple AS/DS roll, which are player-preferable at that level ever since the migration of GS3-GS4 creatures.

If you're warcamping at those levels, then you're likely in GoS and have Sigil of Escape which already offers similar capabilities as a 'get-out-of-death-free' maneuver, which decreases the relative benefit of 1635. If you're not in GoS, you're likely not warcamping, and you're hunting stupidly easy critters.

Is there something more that I'm missing with those 10 spell ranks regarding the potency of other paladin spells? Don't misunderstand, 1635 is an amazingly powerful spell, it's just that when given the relative difficulty of those spans of levels, I would prioritize other training over it for a faster short term gain, while still getting 1635 when it's more necessary, around 45-ish when you start fighting critters that actually pose some risk.

Comparing Escape to Beseech isn't very accurate, IMO. An instant stun breaker against virtually any status effect versus a once a day transport when stunned.. once a day. That fucks you up afterwards. Nor does having both decrease the relative benefit.


I'd also have to say that a 35-45 aren't as easy as you say. Especially for a Paladin who's struggling to hit a lot of skill targets. What other faster short term gains would you prioritize? Getting 103 like some others suggest? If that minimal TD and DS is so important, as a few people have stated, clearly the character is worried about AS/DS checks, which means stuns are going to happen. Why wouldn't you get a stun breaker? There's also the additional benefits those extra Paladin spell ranks give you for the individual spells as well as the CS bump.

What training would you have at 35 that provides a better short term gain?


I understand what your point is, I simply think that there are plenty of worthwhile short term gains from having 1635 at 35 to put it at the forefront. Now, reaching other spell threshholds (1640, 120) is a different question that pertains to your 'most paladins are only 2/3 spell trained' bit. And one with much more leeway.

[Whirlin]

Now dodge versus PF could be an interesting debate for a shield user...

[thefarmer]

It really should, I mean it's not like you can block that Krynch rolling at you or block a big ass shot of water from a GWE. Well the elemental makes more sense to be able to block.. but still. Friggin GS logic man.

Typically I was 1.25x in cman and 1x in dodge after the bowels. I was always 2x in shield, even from the very get go. I finally did reach 2x PF in the bowels though. Which prolly is the reason I could stomp the snot out of them without having much risk as to dying than other folks down there.

I would prioritize getting closer to 2x PF than worrying about dodge, as a shield user. Using a shield and plate just makes dodge a waste. Unless you've maxed shield and PF and have extra TPs lying around at cap.

[Dragoon]

I would prioritize getting closer to 2x PF than worrying about dodge, as a shield user. Using a shield and plate just makes dodge a waste. Unless you've maxed shield and PF and have extra TPs lying around at cap.

That's exactly what I did minus the whole cap bit. I was 2x shield and PF from 85ish and 1x dodge shortly after that.
Funny thing I noticed about TP costs for Cman and dodge, dodge is cheaper to 2x in than cman is (10/6 for dodge, 10/8 for cman) Go figure

[thefarmer]

It's probably to give Paladins SOME incentive to train in dodge. Otherwise we'd just tank it up even more.

[lordsmo]

It really should, I mean it's not like you can block that Krynch rolling at you or block a big ass shot of water from a GWE. Well the elemental makes more sense to be able to block.. but still. Friggin GS logic man.

Typically I was 1.25x in cman and 1x in dodge after the bowels. I was always 2x in shield, even from the very get go. I finally did reach 2x PF in the bowels though. Which prolly is the reason I could stomp the snot out of them without having much risk as to dying than other folks down there.

In fairness shield use doesn't help with most maneuvers either.

But yeah, being 2x PF probably saved you many senseless and frustrating deaths in the bowels, heh heh. When I graduated from the Bowels to OTF I was surprised to find myself actually dying less.

[Dragoon]

In fairness shield use doesn't help with most maneuvers either.

But yeah, being 2x PF probably saved you many senseless and frustrating deaths in the bowels, heh heh. When I graduated from the Bowels to OTF I was surprised to find myself actually dying less.

I can actually count how many times I died there on one hand. Three times. Once to a stone fist, once to a major ewave, and once to a stone fist ewave combo.

[lordsmo]

I was actually talking about my wizard in the Bowels, but yeah, paladins are generally much better equipped to handle a beatdown from multiple mstriking critters while proned/immobilized with reduced DS than pure casters are.

Most of my wizard's deaths would be while immobilized from stone fist if I got mass dispelled in a swarm. Of course there's also the occasional time when I would enter a room and be instantly dead before I even realized what happened, and scrolled back to read the phrase "huge stone fist....... Strong blow to neck breaks it!"