So you want to be a pure? Whirlin's Guide to Sorcerers

[Whirlin]

Welcome to the third installment of Whirlin's Profession Guides: So you want to be a pure? Whirlin's Guide to Sorcerers.

I'm going to begin with an introduction of skills that are relevant to the Sorcerer profession in terms of training and utility from a training point perspective, and discuss some of the benefits and major goals associated with training them.

Disclosure
Apparently this needs to be said, because some people simply aren't getting the concept of mathing out Gemstone. This guide is meant to highlight maximized options in training, with justification for the training paths. This guide is not a be all, end all list of prescriptive things that you MUST do in order to succeed. It is meant to offer mathematics based analysis and recommendations on training paths based on my known knowledge of game mechanics while integrating what I have learned from my own, and other players' experiences over the years, including reading far too many threads on these very forums.

Gemstone is an amazingly easy game. Even the weakest hunters can be successful, take a look at Dayko. People don't need to use this guide or follow these training plan if they believe that doing their own thing will be sufficient. However, the intent of this guide is to be a first line of defense from the same questions being asked on the forums regarding training questions.

Goat took my advice, and is working on his own damn guide for people that want to play melee Sorcs.

Physical Stuff
Armor Use Reduces swinging RT, maneuver penalties, and spell hindrance from wearing armor. For a Sorcerer, you have two options. Full Leathers are fully trained off at 4 ranks, while Double Leathers are fully trained off at 8 ranks. Full Leathers will have no hindrance associated with them with your Sorcerer Spell Circle, while Double Leathers will retain 2% hindrance when fully trained.
Shield Use Generates DS when using a shield... Derp
Combat Maneuvers An expensive form of maneuver defense. Not recommended until well post-cap
Multi-Oponent Combat Assists Ball Spells minimum targets hit (111 and 713), but at a very high cost. As well as Focused Implosion will hit multiple critters with a stun. If you end up going with a spell aiming build, I recommend picking up an enhancive that generates +1 MOC rank as an alternative to spending the heavy TP cost. You can pick up an enhancive for anywhere from 50-200k, depending on the market. But definitely well worth it!
Physical Fitness Your main maneuver defense
Dodging DS... but prohibitively high cost to train in.

Magical Stuff
Arcane Symbols Scroll Infusion, and just reading scrolls and stuffs. Also assists in Ensorcelling.
Magic Item Use Use wands, use statues and stuffs, more ranks; more duration. Also assists with some scroll infusion rolls. Also assists in Ensorcelling.
Harness Power Get mana. +3 Mana per rank up to your level, +1 mana for over training.
Spell Aiming Weapon Training for mana spells... pewpew
Mana Control: Elemental Shares elemental mana... Also assists in Ensorcelling.
Mana Control: Spirit Shares spiritual mana... Also assists in Ensorcelling.
Mana Control: Mental Shares Mental mana... Doesn't do anything else, and is more expensive than the other two... Don't herpaderp, train the other ones unless you somehow have a Savant running around that can send mana to you.
Spell Research Get spell ranks, unlock new spells, make existing spells better.
Lores Bigger Topic... Increases potency of spells that don't get their potency increased by spell research. I'll get into that later on.



Lores:
Two distinct lore areas to discuss... I'll do a breakdown of the two sorcerous ones completely, but the elemental ones are more general, as the impact is relatively similar.

Sorcerous Lores
Necromancy:
Blood Burst (701) will now do some life leech when cast.
Limb Distruption (708) busted limbs may mess with their previous owners
Pain (711) receives a ridiculous buff on all sides, and unlocks higher damage, and more RT
Disease (716) is buffed on all aspects
Animate Dead (730) will be able to be done on stronger targets with more ranks.
Ensorcell (735) will generate energy faster. This will not improve the weekly cap... just make it slightly faster to cap.

Demonology:
Phase (704) will be functional on heavier targets
Cloak of Shadows (712) has an increased retribution Rate
Balefire (713) gets a minor DF increase
Torment (718) gets the preparation penalty decreased, and allows multiple targets to get tormented at once
Minor Summoning (725) gets increased success rate, and all around stronger demons
Planar Shift (74) failure rate reduced.

Elemental Lores
Elemental Lores increase the criticals associated with Dark Catalyst (719)... Virilneus did a lot of research on the topic, which can be found here:
http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/06/18/719-lore-benefit-research/
The results of Viril's research show that there will be benefits up to 20 ranks of each elemental lore.
However, it should be noted that this should more than likely be only a post-cap goal, similarly to combat maneuvers. No reason to beef up 719 before maximizing CS and other things.
Another thing to note, 111 is NOT strengthened by Fire lore, so no reason to prioritize that within elemental lores. I know that'll get brought up sooner or later.

Applied Lores

Since elemental lores' effectiveness is minimal, and isn't woth worrying about til post cap. We'll turn our attention to the application of sorcererous lores.

In most of my discussions with sorcerers, while Necromancy is badass, and the effects on limb disruption synergize extremely well with spell aiming training, most sorcerers (and I) agree that Demonology still wins when it comes to determining guidance on prioritization.

Demonology lore training has a point in which further training has such a diminished return that it's no longer worthwhile. At 50 ranks:
-Maxed 95% retribution rate on Cloak of Shadows
-0 chance of failure to summon by valence for Minor Summoning
-6% failure rate on planar shift (next -1% is at 60 ranks)
-24 pound max item weight for Phase (next +2 pounds at 52 ranks)
-+.05 DF on Balefire... (that's +.001 per rank for 50 ranks... subsequent ranks are +.0005)

As a result, it's recommended to hit 52 ranks of Demonology... Those extra 2 pounds on Phase are nice, and the next 'big gain' afterwards occurs at 60 ranks... After 52 ranks of Demonology, the benefits just aren't substantial.

Concurrently, having a single rank in Necromancy unlocks 701's bloodburst lifeleech. With this in mind, the following training is recommended:
1 rank in Necromancy
52 Ranks in Demonology
The rest of forever in Necromancy

Spell Listing
701 Makes critters bleed... But, with enough necromancy ranks, you can go around, make a whole bunch of shit bleed, and then be siphoning blood off of them for a while. While this sounds awesome... you're a sorcerer... You're either alive, or dead... There are going to be very few instances where you're gonna get plinked for 5 minutes and then die. The other strength of this spell is to slowly bleed a creature out to save the scalp/hide for skinning... But I dunno why you'd be skinning.
702 Main attack spell for a while. It can be channeled for additional damage (stance + open hand increase damage), and it does more damage to stunned/incapacitated critters. The messaging corresponds to damage, and I believe there are some things on the Repo to display the damage based on the messaging.
703 Corrupt Essence is a TD pushdown and a temporary silence. However, given the short duration of only 15 seconds, the math on the TD pushdown makes it generally not worth casting as an opener, unless you are sporting a very low accuracy on your casts (like, below 80% chance to hit) and using a high tier attack spell (like 719).
704 Phase... I'm gonna have a separate section on this.
705 Disintegrate is badass on non-corporeal undead, or if a critter is stunned. Under either condition, it gets a third attack cycle, which can be devastating.
706 It's a stun... good for setting up 705, and a great thing to set to your Cloak of Shadows.
707 Eye Spy is kinda like a familiar, but... gross... and less fluffy, and gets less ladies. It's also a nice setup for 717, which I'll get into later. Eye Spy allows you to command an eye to look into other rooms, and do some emotes.
708 With 2x spell aiming, you can aim Limb Disruption without CS penalty... Doing much less than 2x spell aiming, and you're better off not aiming it. You can us the AIM verb to always target the right arm (that'll disable casters).
709 It's like an e-wave... that lasts for like a minute... hitting current and adjacent rooms... for less mana. It also induces RT on the targets, making it stronger than a wizard's 909. Pretty much win all around.
710 Sorcerer's take on the old wizard Cloud spells... But strangely, rely on spell aiming for focused maelstroms. It's great for those critters that you can't really ward... but since, unlike wizards, sorcerers can hunt from a more defensive stance, I'd say the utility is diminished. If the critter moves 1 room, maelstrom dissipates. I also just noticed it's spelt maelstrom... I always call it maelstorm... ohh well.
711 Pain is a great spell. It reduces the target's max HP and can induce RT. It's utility and relative strength is dependent on Necro Lore though. Compared to 701, this makes for a stronger spell to kill a critter while keeping the skin in tact... you know... if that interests you?
712 Probably one of the strongest Defensive Spells in Gemstone... TD, DS (capped benefit at lower of (level vs Sorcerer ranks)). You can also imbue a spell in the cloak by using CHANT RETRIBUTION ###. You can even put 130 in there if you want, but if you put a non-offensive spell in there, it'll backlash and hurt you more. So... may end up being worse off than putting something offensively defensive in there. 706 is a great option if fighting critters that can be stunned. It should be noted though, that Retribution spells WILL COST MP. Which can cause nerve damage...
713 Balefire is an ball-attack spell. It's got a fairly high DF for a ball-spell, but definitely lower than a bolt spell. It can also be enhanced with having a demon out, which will cause an additional damage round at the cost of 2 demon mana.
714 Scroll Infusion... Separate Section
715 Curse... Separate Section
716 Disease. Just like the status ailment, (level/3) + (1 per 5 warding failure), dissipating 1 per round... Not bad if you're not in a hurry to kill something... But there are better options out there. The krakii entry says that it's slated for improvement.
717 Evil Eye, paired with 707, this becomes AoE... and ridiculous.. Either fears, stuns, or outright kills a target. Better yet... this will not invoke the shroud in warcamps. But if you've ever been on Lnet, you've heard about that.
718 Torment. This is a weird spell. You can force a target TD pushdown if you go into a more offensive stance. It'll do multiple attack cycles, there's a Level based TD adjustment. Honestly, there's a lot of noise going on. But quite honestly, I haven't found a situation where it's the most advantageous offensive spell to use.
719 Dark Catalyst. Goto attack spell once you have the mana for it. This spell does more damage on pures than squares, and adequate damage on semis. Elemental lores can increase the damage cycles per Virilneus' testing. http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2009/06/18/719-lore-benefit-research/
720 Implosion. So, you know nothing of implosion? Welcome to Gemstone. Unlike other classes that get a wingrat following them, sorcerers get a damn nice attack spell.
Essentially, it opens up a void. Voids hurt. Things get vaporized.

Focused Implosion: Damage based on Sorc spell ranks & Spell Aiming ranks. This can stun up to 6 other critters in the room (like a wizard's ball spells), +1 hit per MoC rank. Chance of instant-vaporization is based on Spell Aiming. 2x Spell Aiming is nice.
Focused Implosion MP cost: 1x mana controls Nets -2 mana cost. 2x mana controls yields -4 mana cost. But, there's a surplus of +1 mana per level of target over caster. So, it kinda nets out in the end. Not worth really training too heavily for.

Open Implosion: Creates a void. Void sucks everything. Stuns critters in immediate room, and adjacent rooms. Sucks up all items to (except registered stuff). 4 damage cycles.

Critters pulled into the voids from implosions cannot be searched.

725 Minor Summoning... I am not summarizing this... http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/725
730 Animate Dead. Know what's better than fogging? Raising the corpse to follow you. Although, it does take some prep work. This goes hand in hand with 725... Easier for me just to give you all a link: http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/animate_dead.asp
735 Ensorcell, the reason there are so many sorcerers today! Ensorcell is a temporary weapon/armor/shield buff that lasts for four hours when CAST at an item. When temporarilly in effect, it will boost the sorcerer's stuff by granting flares or -CvA (effectively, +TD), on their items. When Channelled, it's applied permanently. Stuffs can take up to 5 tiers of Ensorcell. Sorcerers get 1 bonus tier of ensorcell. The flares can grant HP, MP, Spirit, or +AS/CS on their next cast (similarly to acuity). Best of all, it stacks with other flares, padding, scripts, etc. Dergoatean wrote his own damn guide on this here: http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/Ensorcell


PHASE
Ok... Phase has the most potential of any spell in the game. Using Phase successfully will reduce encumbrance, increase hunting potency, save you silvers from the townsmith's grubby fingers, and potentially align planets while growing your lost hair back. So lets dive into the spell and see what it can do.

Phase in Combat
Phase will turn non-corporeal critters into corporeal critters.
Stop using big words, what does that mean?
Means you can open with Phase, and then you can crit them to death.
When should I use this?
As nice as it sounds, with 705's increased potency against non-corporeal critters, the effectiveness is reduced due to the relative mana cost, similarly to 703's TD weakening effect. It would be best used in group scenarios where others can use the additional crit damage, or deadly non-corporeal creatures with CMANs or Spells that require their hands/arms to cast (704, then 708 for safety).

Phase's other abilities
Phasing for Weightlessness
Way One: Phase an item, put it away. Perfect for boxes.
Way Two: Install a Lock Mastery lock on your container. Lock your container, cast phase. BAM, weightless
Phasing into containers
Prep 704, channel box. You shove your hand in there, and pull something out. This will trigger traps, and I don't recommend doing it unless you know it's safe.
Opening your own boxes
If a box can be successfully phased, it can safely be 125'ed. And that's cheaper than the town locksmith.
Glyph traps are the main back-firers of 125 (along with enruned and mithril). Boxes with Glyph traps will resist CAST'ed phase.
Determine Orb Gems
If a gem becomes shifty, it's an orb!
Determine Freshness of Magic Items and Scrolls
Crystals, Ruby Amulets, and most importantly, scrolls. They'll all successfully phase if they're fresh.
Chalk Bundling
Phase both pieces of chalk, and bundle away. No more dozens of half-eaten chalk


Casting Strength
Sorc spell circle: +1 up to level
+.75 up to Level+20
+.5 from Level+21 to Level+60
+.25 from Level+61 to Level +100

Secondary Circle:
+1/3 CS per rank up to 2/3 Level
+.1 from 2/3 Level to Level
+.05 after that.

The primary Circle bonus is rounded... That's why there's the +21 recommendation (20 ranks = 15, therefore 21 ranks = 15.5, subsequently rounded up). Secondary circles are ceiling'ed, so having 5.05 would still net 6.

With this in mind... At Sorc +21, each subsequent rank would net +.5 CS. One additional rank in MnE should net .33 CS + bonus from 425. 425 normally grants +.5 CS per MnE Rank... However, that's only for pure elemental bonuses. Since Sorcerer circle is a hybrid circle, that bonus is halved. So you're only getting +.25 CS per rank.

Therefore, MnE up to 2/3rds level nets you +.58 CS, and MnE from 2/3rds to 1x level nets you +.35 CS

From a pure CS maximization perspective:
Sorcerer up to Level +21 ranks
MnE up to 2/3rds Level
Sorcerer up to Level + 59 Ranks (cause... rounding, yo)
MnE up to 73 ranks
MnS up to 67 ranks

However
Per this CS maximization training, MnS would almost never be done. I can't recommend MnS THAT low in actual training priority, especially due to it's high DS contribution. I recommend unlocking Wall of Force for the bandit, invasion, rescue, ohh-shit scenarios, likely after the MnE up to 2/3rds level in the hierarchy.

[Whirlin]

Maximizing Your potential: Channel & Shield

Channeling
Some spells allow for the use of CHANNEL verb instead of just CAST. Channel adds provides a phantom bonus to endrolls based on the stance and open hands. It also forces a hard 3s RT.

Unfortunately, the best documented evidence and testing that we have about the impact of channeling is on the cleric forums as it relates to Smite/Bane (302):

Stance|One Open Hand|Two Open Hands
OFFENSIVE|+20|+40
ADVANCE|+16|+32
FORWARD|+12|+24
NEUTRAL|+8|+16
GUARDED|+5|+10

One open hand is required to receive any bonus from Channel

Note: This is a point of reference. Testing has not been fully completed and documented for channel's effects on 702 and 705.

Channelable spells:
702 and 705 are both effected by channel. Although, there have been statements that 705 does not follow other channel rules!

Does weilding a runestaff in one hand leave the other hand open for channeling?
Yes. Using Runestaff + Open hand = 1 open hand channel.

Shield Use
Shield use adds block at Base DS bonus × Stance Modifier × (1.0 + Shield Size Modifier) + 20 + Shield enchant = Final DS bonus
Shield Size|Shield Modifier
Small|.85
Medium|1
Large|1.15
Tower|1.3

Shield Stance|Mod
Offensive|.5
Guarded|.9
Defensive|1

Using an Open Hand + Shield will prevent Disarming... since you don't have a weapon. It is also advantageous versus immobilization, as you lose all parry/evade portions of DS.

However, that being said... chances are, you're not fighting anything that can disarm until you're at or near cap... Once you're at that point, you're likely not channeling 702 too often either, so it's really all about 705. If you are casting 702, it's cause you got a wizard to stack an obscene amount of Rapid Fire on you... in which case, you want CAST, not CHANNEL.

Runestaves
Runestaves get stronger as you train more magic skills. They do not require any inherent physical training to use, and they get stronger as you gain more magical skills relative to your level. Magical skills can be defined as: Spell Research, Spell Aiming, Mana Controls, Harness Power, Lores, Arcane Symbols, and Magic Item Usage.

Parry Ranks + trunc(STR bonus ÷ 4) + trunc(DEX bonus ÷ 4) = Base Value
(Base Value × TH Stance modifier) + Stance Bonus + Runestaff Enchant Bonus = Parry DS

Parry Ranks:
1. Less than 4 magic ranks per level
Parry Ranks = 10 + ((3 × magic ranks) ÷ (20))
2. Between 4 and 11 magic ranks per level
Parry ranks = 10 + level + [((magic ranks) - (8 × level)) ÷ 10]
3. More than 11 magic ranks per level
Parry Ranks = 10 + (level × 13/10) + [((magic ranks) - (11 × level)) ÷ 20]

And
THW Stance|Mod|Bonus
Offensive|.3|0
Guarded|.90|40
Defensive|1.05|50

...What?
Lets say you're at 5 magic trains per level. Every 10 more ranks of magical stuff you train will yield +1 parry rank, until you get to the point where you're at 11 magic trains per level. That +1 parry rank is then used in the Stance modifier / Stance bonus equation.

So, basically, 10 ranks in something like MIU, AS, Spell Aiming, etc, can yield +.9 DS in guarded. Still rather expensive!

Staff + Shield
Pioneered by DarcThundar over on this thread: http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?79452-The-Best-of-Both-Worlds, Staff + Shield basically doesn't offer any additional DS, no additional channel capabilities, and seems ridiculously awkward.

But what it does provide is the potential to dual wield fusion Staff + Shield, at no DS loss, and grants protection against being disarmed.

The downside? It's TP expensive. It also only utilizes CvA defenses from Ensorcellment on the shield, not on the staff.

Why it works? There's a HUGE penalty to wielding a 2H in one hand. However, using a shield in your other hand pretty much just almost makes up for the penalty (about -1 DS at cap difference)

[Whirlin]

Training Forward
There have been a lot of discussions regarding War Sorcs in the last month or two. I've had extremely lengthy discussions via PMs with the warsorcs, and while it is working for them, it is not a mathematically advantageous build for me to include... Plus, it doesn't match the guide title!

While 425 is an amazing AS booster, but, pures fall behind on melee AS due to only being able to 1x in the weapon skill.
Empaths gain +15 AS from 211, +25 from 315, +15 from 1109, and +20 (up to + 55) from 1130. Total of +110 (further trainable with lores)
Wizards get the same up to +50 from 425, and +15 from 509. Total of +65 (further trainable with lores)
Clerics gain similar +15 AS from 211, +25 from 215, and +15 from 307 (and +15 AS flares). Total of +55
While sorcerers only get 425 as an AS booster. Total of +50
Therefore, a warsorc will have the lowest potential AS of any class (without outside spells).

I did some analysis of the AS slowdown of warmages back on the wizard guide that I wrote. Here's a link. The concept was to provide a comparative analysis of AS growth of a warPure versus a Ranger (which from an AS perspective, is the lowest non-pure). Here's a link to the post where what is included:
Post Link! (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?79515-Pure-Archer-Mage-amp-Warmage-Information&p=1509297#post1509297)

While 211 and 509 are available from outside sources, the intent of this guide is to maximize your character's potential as a solo hunter. Group mechanics, training patterns, and options can vary greatly if you're grouped with a paladin, or grouped with a bard, and represent far too many potential combinations to cover.

Dergoatean decided to write his own damn guide for melee Sorc Builds. This should be available for the world soon.

Training Methodology
With my wizard guide, we used a combination of a core training path, with point 'dumps'.
In the Bard Guide, we used a similar concept, but with much less 'core', and a lot more 'cap-able' skills.
In this Sorcerer guide, we're going to approach things a bit differently. The best way I can describe it is somewhere between the wizard and bard guide. I'm going to include a very low, limited, bare bones, core training train. From there, I'm going to highlight a lot of potential areas to train in. Think of it like selecting your build from a shopping cart! While multiple items can be selected from the options available, each additional perk/skill/ability trained will reduce the number of TPs to dump into the point dumps (Spoiler: spell Research). Make sense? I dunno, I'm sure I'll get another 10 pages of crap if people don't understand it!

Core Training
As mentioned above, this is meant to be extremely limited, however, I think it's important that all sorcerers have at least the following:
.5 Physical Fitness (4/0)
.5 Arcane Symbols (0/1)
.5 MIU (0/1)
.5 EMC (0/1.5)
.5 SMC (0/1.5)
.5 Perception (0/1.5)
1x Harness Power (should be @ level... but for simplicity, I'll just put 1x) (0/4)
2x Spell Research (0/24)
Total Cost: (4/34.5)

Armor Use|Maneuver Defense|Magic Prowess|Other Training Stuff
Full Leathers|Little More Maneuver Defense Training|Slightly More Magic|Bolting
Double Leathers|Even More Maneuver Defense Training|Scroll Infusion|Climbing/Swimming
||Train ALL the Magics|Shield Use


Optional Bucket 1 Armor Use Training|Train off Full Leathers|Train off Double Leathers
Priority:|High|Optional
Cost:|Minimal, Discrete|Low, Discrete
Training:|4 Ranks Armor Use|8 Ranks Armor Use
Total Cost:|60 PTP, ~1 Spell Rank|120 PTP, ~2 Spell Ranks
Benefit:|Trains off the inherent maneuver penalties associated with full leathers. These penalties will influence actions that induce RT and creature maneuvers.|Trains off the inherent maneuver and spell hindrance penalties associated with double leathers to their minimum. This will result in 2% spell hindrance on only the Sorcerer circle (0 on MnE and MnS), but allow the user to wear enhancive helms, as well as head protection.


Optional Bucket 2 Maneuver Defense Boost|Little More Maneuver Defense|Even More Maneuver Defense Training
Priority:|High|Moderate
Cost:|Low, Addition to Core|Low, Addition to Core
Training:|Full 1x Physical Fitness (+4/+0)|Full 1x Physical Fitness & Full 1x Perception (+4/+1.5)
Total Cost @cap:|400 PTP (6.25 Spell Ranks)|400/150 (~11 Spell Ranks)
Benefit:|Sorcerers, like wizards and clerics, have the lowest CMAN Defenses. While being trained a full 1x in PF and Perception will not guarantee defense from CMANs, it will make it possible for CMANs to miss! I want to curb expectations, we're talking about going from horrible to bad, and the cost is relatively low for both options.|Slightly better than what's written to the left...


Optional Bucket 3 Magic Prowess |Slight Runestaff Defense Boost|Scroll Infuser|Train ALL the Magics!
Priority:|High|Low|Probably shouldn't don't do this
Cost:|Low, Addition to Core|High, Addition to Core|Stupidly High, Addition to Core
Training:|Full 1x MIU, Full 1x AS (+0/+2) |1.5x MIU, 1.5x AS, 1x EMC, 1x SMC (+0/+10)|2x MIU, 2x AS, 2x EMC, 2x SMC (+0/+25)
Total Cost @Cap:|200 MTP (6.25 Spell Ranks)| 1000 MTP (31.25 Spell Ranks)|2500 MTP (78.125 Spell Ranks)
Benefit:|+1 Magic train per level change over the core, for minimal TP costs. This is slightly advantageous compared to spell ranks for DS, at 20 MTP for +.9 DS (guarded) compared to 32 MTP for 1 DS if put towards MnS.|Scroll infusion relies on Arcane Symbols for the success rolls, MIU for the unlocking wave of the runestone, and Mana Control is used to determine the total mana cost of the infusions. Selecting this will grant slightly higher runestaff defense than the previous option, but not be more advantageous than just straight spell research training.|You're gonna be awesome at scroll infusion. Ensorcelling will be limited by your spell research, and you're gonna use scrolls and magical trinkets like a boss. That being said, your AS/CS/DS/TD will suffer from the high TP cost of this.

Optional Other Trainings|Bolter|Climbing/Swimming|Shield Use
Priority:| Depends on Race|Strongly Recommended by level 80 or so|Good Post-Cap Option
Cost:|High, Addition to Core|Low, Discrete|High, Addition to Core
Training:|2x Spell Aiming (+9/+3)|50 Ranks Swimming (200/0), 50 Ranks Climbing (150/0)|1x Shield Use (13/0)
Total Cost @Cap:|900/300 (23.4375 Spell Ranks)|450/0 (7 Spell Ranks)|1313/0 (20 Spell Ranks)
Benefit:|At 2x, Focused Implosion is a simple way to get rid of a critter, assuming you don't want any loot. 708 becomes a great opener/disabler as well, and a way to enforce some crowd control.|To unlock getting to a lot of later hunting grounds, you'll want 50/50 climbing/swimming.|As explained in the post above, Shield use is an option if it fits your style.

[Whirlin]

Race|Strength | Constitution | Dexterity | Agility | Discipline | Aura | Logic| Intuition | Wisdom | Influence
Aelotoi |-5|0|5|10|5|0|5|5|0|-5|
Burghal gnome|-15|10|10|10|-5|5|10|5|0|-5|
Dark elf|0|-5|10|5|-10|10|0|5|5|-5|
Dwarf|10|15|0|-5|10|-10|5|0|0|-10|
Elf|0|0|5|15|-15|5|0|0|0|10|
Erithian|-5|10|0|0|5|0|5|0|0|10|
Forest gnome|-10|10|5|10|5|0|5|0|5|-5|
Giantman|15|10|-5|-5|0|-5|-5|0|0|5|
Half elf|0|0|5|10|-5|0|0|0|0|5|
Half krolvin|10|10|0|5|0|0|-10|0|-5|-5|
Halfling|-15|10|15|10|-5|-5|5|10|0|-5|
Human|5|0|0|0|0|0|5|5|0|0|
Sylvankind|0|0|10|5|-5|5|0|0|0|0|



Racial Selection
CS
Sorcerer CS Calculations use: Round((Wis bonus + Aur Bonus)/2), rounding up at .5.
Therefore, from a Sorcerer CS maximization, we have the following heirarchy:
+15 (8 CS) Dark Elf
+5 (3 CS) Burghal Gnome, Elf, Forest Gnome, Sylvan
0 (0 CS) Aelotoi, Erithian, Half-Elf, Human
-5 (-2 CS) Half Krolvin, Giantman, Halfling
-10 (-5 CS) Dwarf

Bolting AS
Since Sorcerers can be effective Bolters as well, I'll put the DEX heirarchy here also:
+15 Halfling
+10 Dark Elf, Burghal Gnome, Sylvan
+5 Aelotoi, Elf, Forest Gnome, Half-Elf
0 Dwarf, Erithian, Half-Krolvin, Human
-5 Giantman

... Summary
The best of both worlds really comes down to Dark Elves. While it's -5 Bolt AS compared to a halfling, it's a nice +10 CS compared to them. Given the prevalence of CS spells for sorcs, there's a reason why you see so many Dark Elven Sorcerers.

Societies
COL
COL offers +35 DS, +35 AS, +15 TD, and full mana at the cost of 5 spirit. Since CS spells are not impacted by spirit levels, it's not a bad option. However, Dark Elven spirit is horrible... Very horrible.

Voln
Voln is the only society that offers a CS booster. That CS booster is against undead, but it's still a CS booster. It's less AS, DS, and TD compared to COL, but it also allows instant teleportation to the Rift, which may be nice if you couldn't teleport like a boss.
Another downside to Voln is while Voln Armor sounds fun and awesome, it cannot be ensorcelled. Ensorcelling is pretty badass, especially when you can do it on your own gear.

GOS
GOS as a sorcerer is going to be tough. Sorcerers do not have any natural maneuver defense boosting abilities like Clerics or Empaths, and don't have haste to keep them out of RT lock like Wizards. You just have cloak of shadows as a 'get out of jail free' card with a 130 retribution.

GOS offers +30 AS, +30 DS w/ Padding, and +20 TD. It also offers Sigil of Escape, which is kind of similar and redundant to keeping 130 in your cloak of shadows. But it WOULD free up your retribution!

GOS also offers easy warcamping. You can easily make an alt on another account, get it to level 5, GoS rank 2, and find yourself warcamps to enter, but even typing that kinda sucked, let alone actually doing it.

[Whirlin]

Consolidating 18 pages of bitching: The Spell Aiming Debate
Relevant Information
Sorcasaurus did some testing for us On this post in the thread (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?83173-So-you-want-to-be-a-pure-Whirlin-s-Guide-to-Sorcerers&p=1662065#post1662065)!
AIMED 708: If SA ranks <= 2 * critter level, there will be a penalty associated with aimed 708, So even if you're 2x Spell Aiming, you can still have a penalty if you're hunting above your level.Focused Implosion:"There were few enough instant kills on non-disabled critters that I didn't bother to figure out the %. Damage wasn't all that impressive either, generally being a low enough number that 702 would have been a better cast. It still worked better on things laying down and/or stunned, but if they're disabled an open implosion would likely be just as, if not more effective." -Sorcasaurus
Targeted Spell Aiming (708) CS penalty formula:
100 - trunc[100 * (SA ranks/(target level * 2))] = CS penalty

Conclusion: 1x Spell Aiming isn't worth it. A sorcerer should either be fully dedicated and 2x in it, or bypass it entirely.


Pro-Spell Aiming Argument
Spell aiming unlocks tons of new hunting opportunities. Warcamps and bandits become easier to tag for group hunting due to the splash damage.
Critters that normally have high TDs become huntable.
Aiming 708 becomes viable, and the best disabler available.
Synergies really with Necromancy lore and MoC training.
Little bit more runestaff defense
It's fun to have alternative attack options.

Anti-Spell Aiming Argument
It's unnecessary, you can always find a hunting ground that CS alone can rock.
It's expensive, you can dedicate the points to increasing your CS.
You can increase your Ensorcell capability with putting the points elsewhere

Other random Stuff
Fun fact comes from Zhelas regarding 417 and 119:

We sorcerers have another spell combination which can be used. 417 then followed immediately by 119.

When these two dispelling spells mix there is a plasma explosion on the intended target.


This is an extra post for things like Ensorcell, demonic summoning, and more stuff I need to personally research and consider how the heck it works...

[Wheelerm]

Can't wait to see what you post. Thanks for doing this.

[crb]

This post will be about race and societies.
Spoiler: Dark elf. sadly...

Yes, I agree, Dark elves do make sad sorcerers. Can you imagine? Putting up with all that weakness, the difficulty with alchemy, the limited spirit (which translates to limited mana) all for a mere handful of extra CS?

[Buckwheet]

Yes, I agree, Dark elves do make sad sorcerers. Can you imagine? Putting up with all that weakness, the difficulty with alchemy, the limited spirit (which translates to limited mana) all for a mere handful of extra CS?

Unless there will be a breakdown of enhancive costs, I tend to agree. Unlike CRB I prefer Halfling as a sorcerer, but Dwarf would be a second choice.

[Tenlaar]

This post will be about different training paths...
Spoiler: Pure.

Get him, Caelric!

[whiteflash]

Yes, I agree, Dark elves do make sad sorcerers. Can you imagine? Putting up with all that weakness, the difficulty with alchemy, the limited spirit (which translates to limited mana) all for a mere handful of extra CS?

Out of curiosity, why the extra difficulty with alchemy?

[Allereli]

what difficulty with alchemy?

[Buckwheet]

Alchemy uses disc and logic as some core stats. DE's get -10 to disc and 0 to logic. CRB being a dwarf is pointing out that dwarves get a bonus to each of those.

Halflings(my choice) get -5 disc and +5 logic essentially cancelling it out.

[Whirlin]

Starting at rank 50 or so of General Alchemy, you unlock the Channel Spirit verb via alchemy. Each attempt requires approximately 2 spirit. Relative to other alchemical learning options at those ranks, channeling for spirit shards is by far the most time and cost effective manner to gain ranks.

However, if you get a guild cauldron Channel Spirit alchemy task, you're looking at creating upwards of 10 spirit shards. Since each attempt can resist your verbs on guild cauldrons, it's not unlikely to require about 20-40 attempts at 2 spirit each to complete this task. As a halfling, each of these tasks would require about an hour to do. As a dark elf with substantially lower spirit recovery, you're looking at a good 2-3 hours sitting at a cauldron to complete that task.

And then for other ranks around those levels, you're looking at spending probably 20k for off-the-shelf materials per item created for the next best alternative to spirit channeling.

Note: All values approximate and by memory, including rank where channel is unlocked, and 2 spirit per attempt. Going off of memory, no krakii access at work, except via my phone... which makes it even more blatantly obvious that I'm creatively working.

[Rolton-Sammich]

Alchemy uses disc and logic as some core stats. DE's get -10 to disc and 0 to logic. CRB being a dwarf is pointing out that dwarves get a bonus to each of those.

Halflings(my choice) get -5 disc and +5 logic essentially cancelling it out.

Whoa whoa whoa, where the forest gnomes at?

Max spirit regen.
+5 WIS, +0 AUR.
+5 DIS, +5 LOG.

Boom.

[crb]

Starting at rank 50 or so of General Alchemy, you unlock the Channel Spirit verb via alchemy. Each attempt requires approximately 2 spirit. Relative to other alchemical learning options at those ranks, channeling for spirit shards is by far the most time and cost effective manner to gain ranks.

However, if you get a guild cauldron Channel Spirit alchemy task, you're looking at creating upwards of 10 spirit shards. Since each attempt can resist your verbs on guild cauldrons, it's not unlikely to require about 20-40 attempts at 2 spirit each to complete this task. As a halfling, each of these tasks would require about an hour to do. As a dark elf with substantially lower spirit recovery, you're looking at a good 2-3 hours sitting at a cauldron to complete that task.

And then for other ranks around those levels, you're looking at spending probably 20k for off-the-shelf materials per item created for the next best alternative to spirit channeling.

Note: All values approximate and by memory, including rank where channel is unlocked, and 2 spirit per attempt. Going off of memory, no krakii access at work, except via my phone... which makes it even more blatantly obvious that I'm creatively working.

shitty spirit recovery coupled with shitty discipline = perfect storm alchemy shittiness. Dark elves stuck in a mire of alchemy actually caused a downtweak to cauldron difficulty way back when, though it is still very difficult for them.

DIS is of course used in a myriad of game systems, too numerous to list.

[Dranock]

This gave me wonderful memories of GS3 and reading all the guides entitled "SO YOU WANT TO BE A X?"

[RichardCranium]

Are there any sort of nice ranged weapons available that could help along a pure through the lower levels?

[Allereli]

as someone who actually did alchemy as a dark elf, it wasn't that big of a deal. just infuse a 308 scroll and have a good friend, or cleric available.

[Whirlin]

If you have a pocket cleric / mana battery, it will materially affect maximized play style and training path. I'm not about to write a guides that take into account if you have a pocket character. It's too many variables to deal with. There are enough to deal with without that.

Mathematically, Dark Elves are inferior characters for alchemy, for reasons highlighted by both myself and Virilneus.

I really don't care about first hand experiences when it comes to the utilization of outside factors. I'm not about to write a guide that recommends that people offer to let people Loralaii them in order to master alchemy.

Additionally "wasn't that big of a deal" is a completely subjective statement. If I ran ;alchemy task alchemy at 52 ranks with 10 repeats, and only worried about doing 1 task while I slept, I wouldn't think it's that big of a deal either.

[Sorcasaurus]

Let's wait and see what the guide says before trying to pick it apart.

:shoot:

[Allereli]

In order to master alchemy, you should be using as many outside factors/assistance as possible. Put that in your guide.

[Riltus]

as someone who actually did alchemy as a dark elf, it wasn't that big of a deal. just infuse a 308 scroll and have a good friend, or cleric available.

Voln DE Sorcerer w/Symbol of Renewal

On-node: 0.9 spirit per minute (9/10)
Off-node: 0.7 spirit per minute (7/10)

At cap, favor replacement cost for 100 uses of Symbol of Renewal = 163 SLKs.

Mark

[Allereli]

my point is that despite what Chicken Little says about dark elf sorcerers, the sky is not falling

[Whirlin]

In order to master alchemy, you should be using as many outside factors/assistance as possible. Put that in your guide.

Fuck it, you write up a guide.

Have fun.

[Allereli]

Fuck it, you write up a guide.

Have fun.

I've already started an alchemy one. I'm just pointing out the flaw in not using personal experiences in a guide, that's the whole point, to use your personal experience, or if you haven't done something under certain conditions, use others' personal experiences.

you can't quantify everything as regen in .7/min, or .9/min. because numbers like that don't give an overall impression of is it doable or not? I'm mastering my 2nd dark elf in alchemy (not a sorcerer), and I'm telling you as alchemy stands now, that .2 doesn't make a difference.

[Wheelerm]

Well, this sucks. I was looking forward to reading this.

[Methais]

I really don't care about first hand experiences when it comes to the utilization of outside factors. I'm not about to write a guide that recommends that people offer to let people Loralaii them in order to master alchemy.

What exactly is the definition of being Loralaii'd? I didn't know that alchemy involved anal sex.

[Tisket]

I've already started an alchemy one. I'm just pointing out the flaw in not using personal experiences in a guide, that's the whole point, to use your personal experience, or if you haven't done something under certain conditions, use others' personal experiences.

you can't quantify everything as regen in .7/min, or .9/min. because numbers like that don't give an overall impression of is it doable or not? I'm mastering my 2nd dark elf in alchemy (not a sorcerer), and I'm telling you as alchemy stands now, that .2 doesn't make a difference.

Stop being a useless cunt.

[Allereli]

Stop being a useless cunt.

and this was useful and not cunty? wow, at least I know my stuff. I'm sure Whirlin does, too.

When was the last time you contributed anything? offered in game services? sold something? helped someone?

[Tisket]

and this was useful and not cunty? wow, at least I know my stuff. I'm sure Whirlin does, too.

When was the last time you contributed anything? offered in game services? sold something? helped someone?

Once again, stop cunting up his thread. Yes, you are responsible for making a new verb.

[Allereli]

Once again, stop cunting up his thread. Yes, you are responsible for making a new verb.

actually that verb was in use long ago referring to you and a few others who regularly post here.

[Lord Orbstar]

delete this whole thread and start over minus thin skins and facebook-like drama.

[Tisket]

delete this whole thread and start over minus thin skins and facebook-like drama.

Unless there is a way to take away people's keyboards, this won't work.

[crb]

as someone who actually did alchemy as a dark elf, it wasn't that big of a deal. just infuse a 308 scroll and have a good friend, or cleric available.

Well the first non-Tsin sorcerer to master alchemy happened to be a dwarf, just saying...

Dwarves are a superior race, the sooner we all admit that, the sooner we can move on to important things, like finding a tempering potion to ensorcell enhancives.

[Tisket]

actually that verb was in use long ago referring to you and a few others who regularly post here.

It doesn't bother me but boy, you really don't like being associated with the word "cunt."

Maybe you should stop posting like one then.

[Allereli]

It doesn't bother me but boy, you really don't like being associated with the word "cunt."

Maybe you should stop posting like one then.

why are you still posting here with nothing relating to sorcerers or any guide?


Well the first non-Tsin sorcerer to master alchemy happened to be a dwarf, just saying...

Dwarves are a superior race, the sooner we all admit that, the sooner we can move on to important things, like finding a tempering potion to ensorcell enhancives.

lol why don't we just say that all races are viable for their own reasons, with dark elves you might say it's "only a little bit of CS," but for me that was TPs not spent in spell research and still maintaining a viable CS. With those TPs you can skin/forage and make phat loot.

[Tisket]

why are you still posting here with nothing relating to sorcerers or any guide?

Because it's fun to watch someone with such sensitivity to any form of criticism get angrier and angrier?

[diethx]

Because she can.

[Methais]

A couple quick things:

1. The word cunting predates the PC. It's been in use by Tom Araya of Slayer since at least 1988, as proven by the lyrics on the song South of Heaven.

"...bastard sons beget your cunting daughters..."

2. Tisket serviced me in game once. She even paid for the Silvergate room.

[Tisket]

A couple quick things:

1. The word cunting predates the PC. It's been in use by Tom Araya of Slayer for decades.

2. Tisket serviced me in game once. She even paid for the Silvergste room.

That was a good time.

[Allereli]

Because it's fun to watch someone with such sensitivity to any form of criticism get angrier and angrier?

you seem like the angry one in this case, resorting to petty name calling, and not even creative at that.

[crb]

why are you still posting here with nothing relating to sorcerers or any guide?



lol why don't we just say that all races are viable for their own reasons, with dark elves you might say it's "only a little bit of CS," but for me that was TPs not spent in spell research and still maintaining a viable CS. With those TPs you can skin and make phat loot.

If I were to be genuine and completely remove sarcasm I would simply say:

1. Dark elves have the highest possible CS.
2. Who the fuck cares about CS? If you don't have enough CS you can train in a couple extra spells (not like you're 3x precap anyways), or pick up some aura enhancives, or rub a quartz orb, etc etc etc etc.
3. Meanwhile, your friendly neighborhood dwarf has a lower CS, slightly. In exchange he is pound for pound the strongest race in game, a ridiculous encumberance carrying capacity, stupidly high constitution (rofl @ 130 sickness), natural defenses to many many attacks from manuevers to spells to disease, a discipline to make a drill sergeant cry. Tied for the highest spirit return in game, when coupled with wracking == near infinite mana (this benefit was even sexier in gs3, they reduced the top spirit return a bit in gs4)
4. Hobbits and forest gnomes also have some such traits, but lack the strong back of a dwarf.
5. Beards!
6. To take a dark elf and add all the enhancives you'd need to be the equal of a dwarf in all the ways it benefits you is far far harder than for a dwarf to boost his CS, if he even needs it. Lets face it, a critter hit by a DC at 170 endroll is probably just as dead as if hit by a 180 endroll. But every time a dwarf is attacked he'll tangibly benefit from his better physical skills.

In short, dwarves are tanks, and vastly better defense (and beards!) outweighs slightly better offense.

[Tisket]

you seem like the angry one in this case, resorting to petty name calling, and not even creative at that.

I'm never angry. I think, if you read me as angry, that says more about you than me. Stupid cunt.

[tyrant-201]

Wizards shit on Sorcerers.

The end.

[tyrant-201]

I'm never angry. I think, if you read me as angry, that says more about you than me. Stupid cunt.

I think Chrissy needs a Snickers.

[Fallen]

CRB, you're leaving out the very important fact that you have to play a dwarf. That's a minus if i've ever seen one.

This whole thread is also missing out on the fact that alchemy sucks balls.

[Allereli]

I'm never angry. I think, if you read me as angry, that says more about you than me. Stupid cunt.

I bet your kids say that about you :)

[Rolton-Sammich]

I'm a fan of dwarves generally, but (in my opinion) between 704 and SimuCoins for ridiculous encumbrance relief, the dwarven carrying capacity is not as great of a benefit as it once was.

Although you make a very strong case vis-à-vis beards. Gnome beards just ain't the same.

[Tisket]

I bet your kids say that about you

Is that your version of the "ur mom" joke? Lame.

[crb]

CRB, you're leaving out the very important fact that you have to play a dwarf. That's a minus if i've ever seen one.

This whole thread is also missing out on the fact that alchemy sucks balls.

Oh no I enjoy playing a dwarf. I mean, we have the best RP. Think about it. If you're an elf you have to RP a character devoid of a sense of humor, with a stick up the ass and a chip on the shoulder. You must be polite, mannered, and proper. BORING. As a dwarf you can drink, eat red meat, carouse and womanize and belch and fart and be all manners of crude. Dwarves are fun. Quite frankly the best part about being a dwarf is annoying elves, and you can't do that if you're an elf yourself.

[Fallen]

Fine fine. We can both still agree that alchemy sucks balls, right?

[tyrant-201]

Oh no I enjoy playing a dwarf. I mean, we have the best RP. Think about it. If you're an elf you have to RP a character devoid of a sense of humor, with a stick up the ass and a chip on the shoulder. You must be polite, mannered, and proper. BORING. As a dwarf you can drink, eat red meat, carouse and womanize and belch and fart and be all manners of crude. Dwarves are fun. Quite frankly the best part about being a dwarf is annoying elves, and you can't do that if you're an elf yourself.

I do all that in real life. I play GS to escape being like a dwarf.

[Tisket]

Oh no I enjoy playing a dwarf. I mean, we have the best RP. Think about it. If you're an elf you have to RP a character devoid of a sense of humor, with a stick up the ass and a chip on the shoulder. You must be polite, mannered, and proper. BORING. As a dwarf you can drink, eat red meat, carouse and womanize and belch and fart and be all manners of crude. Dwarves are fun. Quite frankly the best part about being a dwarf is annoying elves, and you can't do that if you're an elf yourself.

This deserved quoting. I love playing a dwarf.

[Tgo01]

Geez the fun I miss while almost being killed twice today while driving.

Since this thread no longer has anything to do with sorcerers I'll go ahead and weigh in on the Dark Elf thing. I have a capped dark elf empath and a level 70ish dark elf bard, if I could I would change their race in a heartbeat, I will never again play a dark elf. I mean sure, if you have some sort of roleplaying reason for playing a dark elf then have at it, but other than that I think they are pretty useless. My empath gets a whopping 5 CS and my bard a whole 10 CS, but in return they have shitty spirit regen, shitty con stat, no bonuses to strength, no bonuses to really anything useful. My bard is missing out on extended song renewals for not being an Erithian or something. Shopkeepers bend them over their counters with no lube when buying their shit. Sure, the amount may be small in some places (5% in Icemule) but that's 2.5 mil after selling 50 mil worth of shit to them.

Other than roleplaying reasons I don't see one good reason to be a dark elf. Yes I "get by" as playing a dark elf, it's not like a huge burden, I'm just talking from a strict min/max type of thing.

[SHAFT]

I'm never angry. I think, if you read me as angry, that says more about you than me. Stupid cunt.

Stop arguing with strangers on the interwebz and get in the kitchen make my sandwich!!!

[tyrant-201]

I only have one DE, and have no plans of making another. I do have a reason for playing him, and do enjoy him, but there's so many other races to play and enjoy.

[Buckwheet]

I would second all of CRBs points about the Dwarf thing if you are not willing to spend extra for the 100 pound encumbrance removal potion.

But I do spend the potion and halfling maneuver defense appears to be same so the only negative would be 130 sickness is not as good. But the +40 ele TD is worth the 130 sickness to me since I rarely to never use 130.

[Catts]

good job nitpicking the man before he could even get started. Refer to the title of "Whirlin's Guide to Sorcerers"

For someone who's never played a sorcerer (and has a basic $15 account), I think your contribution of "get a friend to help" is slightly less useful for me than this guide would have been.

[diethx]

Get two friends to help. You're welcome.

http://images.luvimages.com/luvphotos/y/youre_welcome_sadie_from_awkward-6225.jpg

[tyrant-201]

Get two friends to help. You're welcome.

Do you even GS bro?

[Wheelerm]

5238

[bramblepot]

In order to master alchemy, you should be using as many outside factors/assistance as possible. Put that in your guide.

Well FUCK. So no whirlin guide, just so you could have a little bit of shine. Horrible.

[Tgo01]

What exactly is the definition of being Loralaii'd? I didn't know that alchemy involved anal sex.

I think this still needs an answer please.

[Tenlaar]

Wizards shit on Sorcerers.

The end.

Just because bards are better spell casters than wizards doesn't mean you have to take it out on the poor sorcerers. They have it bad enough already!

[Candor]

Bards? Wizards? Sorcerers?

All Rogue wannabees...

[Catts]

at least I got some useful red rep out of it, and I kinda like the idea of using a dwarf ...crb made some good points heh

Thread: So you want to be a pure? Whirlin's Guide to Sorcerers (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?83173-So-you-want-to-be-a-pure-Whirlin-s-Guide-to-Sorcerers&p=1560529#post1560529)
Here's your guide: 2.3x spells, 2x spell aim, 1x EMC/SMC, 1x+AS, 1x MIU, 1x harness power, .6x PF, 8 ranks armor, some climbing, some swimming, demonology for 704/740 (see the chart), necro for 735/711 (see the chart), .5x perception, .5x survival

[subzero]

However, if you get a guild cauldron Channel Spirit alchemy task, you're looking at creating upwards of 10 spirit shards. Since each attempt can resist your verbs on guild cauldrons, it's not unlikely to require about 20-40 attempts at 2 spirit each to complete this task. As a halfling, each of these tasks would require about an hour to do. As a dark elf with substantially lower spirit recovery, you're looking at a good 2-3 hours sitting at a cauldron to complete that task.


Any worthwhile dark elf sorcerer would simply enslave a cleric for 308 infusions. Spirit problem solved!

[Allereli]

at least I got some useful red rep out of it, and I kinda like the idea of using a dwarf ...crb made some good points heh

Thread: So you want to be a pure? Whirlin's Guide to Sorcerers (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?83173-So-you-want-to-be-a-pure-Whirlin-s-Guide-to-Sorcerers&p=1560529#post1560529)
Here's your guide: 2.3x spells, 2x spell aim, 1x EMC/SMC, 1x+AS, 1x MIU, 1x harness power, .6x PF, 8 ranks armor, some climbing, some swimming, demonology for 704/740 (see the chart), necro for 735/711 (see the chart), .5x perception, .5x survival

I would have signed it but ran out of room.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/704 phase chart

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Summation_chart follow the seed 1 summation chart for 735. For example I have 105 necro ranks, which gives me a 14 bonus. We haven't really figured out any formula for it, but I kill 500-600 like level critters to max my necro, vs 1000 for someone with no necro

spirit lore summoning is good as well, at least get web bolt


Any worthwhile dark elf sorcerer would simply enslave a cleric for 308 infusions. Spirit problem solved!

any sorcerer of any race is going to want help with spirit channeling. I chose an elf empath who is boss at foraging. also, eat a ton of mana bread before starting. not really hard things to do.

[lordsmo]

I thought dwarves and dark elves had identical unencumbered carrying capacities.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Encumbrance

Unless I'm missing something...

[crb]

I thought dwarves and dark elves had identical unencumbered carrying capacities.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Encumbrance

Unless I'm missing something...

Is that really accurate, STR Bonus has nothing to do with encumbrance? Most other game systems always use bonus, not stat.

[Buckwheet]

Should be easy to test right? 160 coins = 1 pound.

[Parkbandit]

Oh no I enjoy playing a dwarf. I mean, we have the best RP. Think about it. If you're an elf you have to RP a character devoid of a sense of humor, with a stick up the ass and a chip on the shoulder. You must be polite, mannered, and proper. BORING. As a dwarf you can drink, eat red meat, carouse and womanize and belch and fart and be all manners of crude. Dwarves are fun. Quite frankly the best part about being a dwarf is annoying elves, and you can't do that if you're an elf yourself.

/agree

I can't believe no one has mentioned the grunt verb for dwarves. It's awesome.

[Tgo01]

Is that really accurate, STR Bonus has nothing to do with encumbrance? Most other game systems always use bonus, not stat.

I can't believe strength bonus has nothing to do with encumbrance either, but I guess it's possible.

[Jace Solo]

So, what's the next Whirlin guide to be??

[Whirlin]

I dunno why it magically stopped getting filtered by my work internet... but I did notice that the relative density of Krakii hyperlinks seems to increase the likelihood of being classified as a game and not able to enter a thread.


While yes, Dwarves and Dark Elves have the same weight factors and min/max weights, Dwarves have a different encumbrance factor than Dark Elves... .80 compared to .84. Overall, minimal. However, influential.

The encumbrance factor is used when wearing stuff. Basically, it'll weigh 1 pound in your hand, but only .8 pounds when worn on a dwarf. However, this is a double edged sword! When wearing lightened armor, the effects are diminished as a result of this factor. So if armor has a base weight of 20 pounds, it'll weigh 16 when a dwarf wears it... If it's been lightened to 10 pounds, which normally grants +10 pounds of weightless encumbrance, on a dwarf it would only produce +8 pounds of weightless encumbrance.

So the more you wear, the better dwarves are relative to Dark elves.

But of course, that's just copy/pasted from Krakii, and adds no value to the community.

[Buckwheet]

It adds value and I appreciate the information. I regret voicing anything until the guide was written. I strongly feel that DE is not the appropriate race for sorcerers for a myriad of reasons and that collectively these small reasons outweigh the common reasoning of "max CS".

I wish that the guide would be completed so that we can have an open debate about the mechanics. So hopefully you take a breather and finish it so that we can have more open debate.

Setting MAing aside I think that we need to have indepth discussion of "min/maxing" for all classes. I think we, as a player base, can intelligently argue for or against certain aspects like using enhancives or the simucoin store, we need to basically say that "uber" gear and MAing should just be covered under the blanket statement of "easy mode".

[AnticorRifling]

Fuck it, you write up a guide.

Have fun.

0 to titty baby in .5 seconds.

[Parkbandit]

0 to titty baby in .5 seconds.

I was expecting to find a baby with like photoshopped tits when I searched for "titty baby".

I did not find them at all.

[AnticorRifling]

I was expecting to find a baby with like photoshopped tits when I searched for "titty baby".

And that is why you're on special watch lists....

[Methais]

/agree

I can't believe no one has mentioned the grunt verb for dwarves. It's awesome.

The RP possibilities for taking a dump are limitless.

[Wheelerm]

It adds value and I appreciate the information. I regret voicing anything until the guide was written."

I hope it does get written. DE might not be the superb choice of race from a mechanics point of view, but speaking only for myself their short-comings is part of why they are interesting and fun. Then again, I kind of like flawed characters.

[rolfard]

Everyone knows dark elves are the first sorcerers and therefore best. That being said, mechanically speaking, every race has it's benefits. Currently dark elves are mechanically superior in several aspects, especially sulking. Dwarves on the other hand appear superior in boasting and detracting from their own short-comings. (Pun intended)

[Tisket]

I dunno why it magically stopped getting filtered by my work internet... but I did notice that the relative density of Krakii hyperlinks seems to increase the likelihood of being classified as a game and not able to enter a thread.


While yes, Dwarves and Dark Elves have the same weight factors and min/max weights, Dwarves have a different encumbrance factor than Dark Elves... .80 compared to .84. Overall, minimal. However, influential.

The encumbrance factor is used when wearing stuff. Basically, it'll weigh 1 pound in your hand, but only .8 pounds when worn on a dwarf. However, this is a double edged sword! When wearing lightened armor, the effects are diminished as a result of this factor. So if armor has a base weight of 20 pounds, it'll weigh 16 when a dwarf wears it... If it's been lightened to 10 pounds, which normally grants +10 pounds of weightless encumbrance, on a dwarf it would only produce +8 pounds of weightless encumbrance.

So the more you wear, the better dwarves are relative to Dark elves.

But of course, that's just copy/pasted from Krakii, and adds no value to the community.

Seriously, you have a talent for explaining difficult concepts and mechanics. Well, difficult for those of us who are not fluent in technicalese that is. Please finish the guide.

[Jace Solo]

How about no one else post in this thread until Whirlin has had the chance to fill AT LEAST the first part of the thread?

Keep your suggestions, comments, ideas and arguments to yourselves until said guide is completed....OR MAKE ONE YOUR SELF YOU SELFISH SOBS AND CUNTS!

Why to discourage someone TRYING to do something for the good of the community!

Feel free to red rep me but keep it out of the fucking thread.

[crb]

Everyone knows dark elves are the first sorcerers and therefore best. That being said, mechanically speaking, every race has it's benefits. Currently dark elves are mechanically superior in several aspects, especially sulking. Dwarves on the other hand appear superior in boasting and detracting from their own short-comings. (Pun intended)

Oh yes, Dark Elves get about +10 to sulking and +5 to angst.

[Jace Solo]

/ignore /slit wrists

[Rolton-Sammich]

The RP possibilities for taking a dump are limitless.

You are all too correct. http://www.virilneus.com/grunts.htm

[zennsunni]

"In short, dwarves are tanks, and vastly better defense (and beards!) outweighs slightly better offense. "

You make many good points, but it's probably worth mentioning that dark elves have a better innate racial bonus against maneuver attacks. The extent to which this might be countered by dwarven high constitution I don't rightly know, but I think that the DE maneuver bonus is a strong point in their favor and bears repeating (since I know we all know this most likely).

[Tgo01]

Stopping for now... but this thread isn't at the top, so nobody knows I'm working on it anyway!

MUHAHAHAHAH

I just happened to be going through sorc threads and noticed you decided to write your own fucking guide.

[Tisket]

Whirlin's the man.

[Methais]

Whirlin's the man.

I thought you were the man?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXhRFnUn72E

[cholodeamor]

Bumping because this is well done.

[Whirlin]

Bumping because this is well done.

This is not done by a longshot!

[SHAFT]

Bumping because this is well done.

I received a copy of whirlin's sorcerer guide. You have to send pics of your GF or wives boobs with "lol brielus" written on them, THEN he has to approve the boobs! It's a whole thing. Good guide though.

[cholodeamor]

Whirlin: what if I send you a picture of my dog lying on his back? Would that suffice? He looks very sultry in the photo it may work for you.

[Allereli]

[Private]-GSIV:Whirlin: "hey, I'm working on the guide... and I have a question... is 1x Spell aiming required for focused implosion?"


The most commonly used version, though heavily weighted so that its proficiency isn't seen until around level 40. The damage done is based on your level vs. target level, Sorcerer Base ranks, and Spell Aiming ranks.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/720

as only 1 of 3 factors for damage, I'd say at least 1x is important for using 720 effectively, but it doesn't say exactly if it's given equal weight. Most people 0x or 2x and base it on the desire to bolt.

[Whirlin]

[Private]-GSIV:Whirlin: "hey, I'm working on the guide... and I have a question... is 1x Spell aiming required for focused implosion?"



http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/720

as only 1 of 3 factors for damage, I'd say at least 1x is important for using 720 effectively, but it doesn't say exactly if it's given equal weight. Most people 0x or 2x and base it on the desire to bolt.

With some early discussions when I was scoping the guide, and weighting the benefits of spell aiming, 720 was a major consideration.

2x Spell aiming just ends up being incredibly expensive for a few situational spells which may or may not be advantageous on a Damage:Mana ratio. If 1x is sufficient to at least unlock Focused Implosion as viable (obviously not incredible) to use against critters with deadly maneuvers (deadly casting can be taken care of with 703), then I'd write it up as an evaluable option. Also relatively cheap for the runestaff DS (52 PTP for .9 DS in Guarded)

Although, doesn't seem like anyone quite knows how effective just 1x spell aiming is with 720. Every reply just seems to state that 2x spell aiming is great with 720.

[Sorcasaurus]

I have a fixskills to burn, I can test 1x out this week and let you know how the 1x goes.

Depending on how much of an issue mana is, I've taken to using an open void to get things on the ground and just sealing it with 417 to avoid leaving an open void around. I usually roll with 0 spell aim.

[Allereli]

Although, doesn't seem like anyone quite knows how effective just 1x spell aiming is with 720. Every reply just seems to state that 2x spell aiming is great with 720.

if I were motivated I'd look at how many greater water elementals I kill on the first cast. I don't linger in front of them, I use peer in that area and walk in, 720 elemental, move on if it is still alive.

while you only think about using sorcerer spells with 2x spell aim (affected sorcerer spells are 713, 111, 118, 708, 710, 720), what it does it open up use of wizard wands, cone of lightning and all sorts of other fun that also conserves your mana. I take charged wizard wands (here we go again, a friend charges them, I don't have a wizard) and absorb them with my bergraham gloves (wand holding staves are also nice, but then you can have two spells easily available if you combine the gloves with a wand holding staff), and have pin worn MR cone of lightning jewelry.

Also, don't underestimate the awesomeness of focused limb disruption.

[Methais]

I take charged wizard wands (here we go again, a friend charges them, I don't have a wizard) and absorb them with my bergraham gloves

What do those gloves actually do?

[Sorcasaurus]

What do those gloves actually do?

If you clench while holding a wand, the charges on the wand will be transferred to the gloves (and destroy the wand). You can then cast the charges without having to pull out the wand.

[Methais]

If you clench while holding a wand, the charges on the wand will be transferred to the gloves (and destroy the wand). You can then cast the charges without having to pull out the wand.

I must have them.

Give them to me immediately.

Do they work with imbedded wands/rods or just standards wands?

[Allereli]

I must have them.

Give them to me immediately.

Do they work with imbedded wands/rods or just standards wands?

sorry, correction they are Bazzelwyn gloves

landing room 355, large fortress :) they are locked, but you can get them unlocked at Xerria. works with any wavable imbed, and retains the number of charges, so if you have a 40 charge gold wand, you have 40 charge gloves.

the unlock messaging choices are here: http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/Ebon_Gate_2012_Item_List#Holly.2C_Wood.2C_and_Vine , look for "Spell Casting Glove choices"

[Whirlin]

while you only think about using sorcerer spells with 2x spell aim (affected sorcerer spells are 713, 111, 118, 708, 720), what it does it open up use of wizard wands, cone of lightning and all sorts of other fun that also conserves your mana. I take charged wizard wands (here we go again, a friend charges them, I don't have a wizard) and absorb them with my bergraham gloves (wand holding staves are also nice, but then you can have two spells easily available if you combine the gloves with a wand holding staff), and have pin worn MR cone of lightning jewelry.

Also, don't underestimate the awesomeness of focused limb disruption.

Agreed. However, if you're having mana concerns, you can always utilize charged 702, 705, or 719 wands, and accomplish the same end. Otherwise, it's a 'fun' factor, which is impossible to quantify.

I also don't have too much insight into the 708 penalties if you're at 1x spell aim versus 2x. Given that the difference between 1x and 2x spell aiming is about 15 spell ranks, the additional 15 ranks may offset a good portion of the penalties.

[Sorcasaurus]

Agreed. However, if you're having mana concerns, you can always utilize charged 702, 705, or 719 wands, and accomplish the same end. Otherwise, it's a 'fun' factor, which is impossible to quantify.

I also don't have too much insight into the 708 penalties if you're at 1x spell aim versus 2x. Given that the difference between 1x and 2x spell aiming is about 15 spell ranks, the additional 15 ranks may offset a good portion of the penalties.

While I'm checking 1x spell aim for implosion, I will check 708 as well.

Personally I keep unstun in my gloves at all times. I usually run bounties with other people, and it allows me to quickly unstun them even if I'm silenced/throat chopped/injured etc

[Allereli]

Agreed. However, if you're having mana concerns, you can always utilize charged 702, 705, or 719 wands, and accomplish the same end. Otherwise, it's a 'fun' factor, which is impossible to quantify.

I also don't have too much insight into the 708 penalties if you're at 1x spell aim versus 2x. Given that the difference between 1x and 2x spell aiming is about 15 spell ranks, the additional 15 ranks may offset a good portion of the penalties.

charged 719 wands?

also, pure CS sorcerers generally suck in invasions. GMs get pissed when you evil eye everything to death

[zhelas]

charged 719 wands?

also, pure CS sorcerers generally suck in invasions. GMs get pissed when you evil eye everything to death

Very true. Typically the TDs versus Sorcery spells are fairly high. The GMs will then make the creatures vulnerable to other things like, bolt spells.. ranged weapons etc. A good example of this would be the post cap Taldorian Knights. Their TDs are very high. My Sorcerer's CS is currently 531. For me to hit the knights i have to cast curse to reduce their TDs even still the TDs are very high. However, spirit fire works extremely well.

Web bolting works great when we have Griffins during invasions. Some of the demons that invade are immune to implosion. Infact if you cast implosion it will be reflected back at the group defending the town.

Being well rounded gives you other options.

[Dayko]

Gemstone is an amazingly easy game. Even the weakest hunters can be successful, take a look at Dayko.
I'm famous :')

[zhelas]

We sorcerers have another spell combination which can be used. 417 then followed immediately by 119.

When these two dispelling spells mix there is a plasma explosion on the intended target.

417 chi
[voodoo]>prepare 417
[voodoo]>cast chieftain
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Dispel...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a jungle troll chieftain.
The light blue glow leaves a jungle troll chieftain.
The elemental aura around a jungle troll chieftain wavers.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
A jungle troll snarls menacingly as she advances!

A jungle troll swings a bamboo-hilted machete at you!
You evade the attack with ease!
>119 chi
[voodoo]>prepare 119
[voodoo]>cast chieftain
You utter a light chant and raise your hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to aid you with the Spirit Dispel spell...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a jungle troll chieftain.
A jungle troll chieftain seems to lose some dexterity.
The hazy film around a jungle troll chieftain fluxes chaotically!
... 40 points of damage!
Vicious hole burned through the troll chieftain's shield hand!
The troll chieftain is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>417 volunteer
[voodoo]>prepare 417
[voodoo]>cast volunteer
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Dispel...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at Volunteer.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around Volunteer.
The elemental aura around Volunteer wavers.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>119 atha
[voodoo]>prepare 119
[voodoo]>cast Volunteer
You utter a light chant and raise your hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to aid you with the Spirit Dispel spell...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture atVolunteer.
The deep blue glow leaves Volunteer.
The hazy film around Volunteer fluxes chaotically!
... 50 points of damage!
Muscle and bone blasted to pieces by powerful bolt of energy!
He is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

[zhelas]

I'm famous :')

Though you aren't a sorcerer..

Have you capped yet?

[Whirlin]

Very true. Typically the TDs versus Sorcery spells are fairly high. The GMs will then make the creatures vulnerable to other things like, bolt spells.. ranged weapons etc. A good example of this would be the post cap Taldorian Knights. Their TDs are very high. My Sorcerer's CS is currently 531. For me to hit the knights i have to cast curse to reduce their TDs even still the TDs are very high. However, spirit fire works extremely well.

Web bolting works great when we have Griffins during invasions. Some of the demons that invade are immune to implosion. Infact if you cast implosion it will be reflected back at the group defending the town.

Being well rounded gives you other options.

Agreed in the post-cap world that it's definitely a nice tool to have... But is it as valuable in the level 40-90 range? Allereli's comments about mana options makes a ton of sense for low level stuff, and web-bolt builds are definitely viable for Griffin and cap hunting, but what about those mid-range levels of Gemstone that sooo many people find themselves in?

[Dayko]

Though you aren't a sorcerer..

Have you capped yet?
just 5 more levels
:up:

[Allereli]

Agreed in the post-cap world that it's definitely a nice tool to have... But is it as valuable in the level 40-90 range? Allereli's comments about mana options makes a ton of sense for low level stuff, and web-bolt builds are definitely viable for Griffin and cap hunting, but what about those mid-range levels of Gemstone that sooo many people find themselves in?

Griffins are also mid-level (the keen). I rarely ever use a CS spell on bandits (all levels 20+).

[Whirlin]

Griffins are also mid-level (the keen). I rarely ever use a CS spell on bandits (all levels 20+).

Keen is a horrible hunting ground. With the climbing around and falling nonsense. Give me Wyneb any day.

What is your hunting strategy for bandits? Given Sorcs horrible CMAN defense, and lack of haste, how do you defend successfully against bandits, rt lock, ambushing, etc? I usually rely on my wizard to assist my sorcerer, or imbeds/scrolls/etc.

Also, 0/140 is a lot of TP to spend for a web bolt, in addition to (9/3) each level for spell aiming.

[Methais]

I'm famous :')

You're infamous. Like El Guapo.

http://www.learningfromlyrics.org/guapo3B%5b1%5d.jpg

[Allereli]

You always say things are so expensive when only considering one factor of what you get. You get much more with the summoning lore for other spells in addition to the web bolt (look at the lore chart). Spell aim we've already covered.

Keen was fine for me. I hunted Wyneb as well, it's not a one or the other choice.

bandits I prep with a full scroll up minus a couple of TD spells. I have padded armor so I'm not death critted. Very rarely I'll get nicked to death. I only MA them when I do double escort tasks with my empath. The RT lock is usually just a nuisance. grik'tyr or shien'tyr demon for best balefire flares. start with a major ewave and pick them off with any combo of balefire, fire spirit, web bolt, cone of lightning, and whatever is in my gloves.

[Whirlin]

You always say things are so expensive when only considering one factor of what you get. You get much more with the summoning lore for other spells in addition to the web bolt (look at the lore chart). Spell aim we've already covered.

Keen was fine for me. I hunted Wyneb as well, it's not a one or the other choice.

bandits I prep with a full scroll up minus a couple of TD spells. I have padded armor so I'm not death critted. Very rarely I'll get nicked to death. I only MA them when I do double escort tasks with my empath. The RT lock is usually just a nuisance. grik'tyr or shien'tyr demon for best balefire flares. start with a major ewave and pick them off with any combo of balefire, fire spirit, web bolt, cone of lightning, and whatever is in my gloves.

I'm not saying it's one or the other. I'm saying it's not worth 9/3 per level to unlock a shitty hunting ground, when you have another (in my opinion, better) alternative, quite literally, right next to it. I'm pointing out that the next best alternative isn't that bad, as to not overstate the benefits. Benefits are only as good as their relative benefit over the next best alternative.

Alright, lets break down the native bonuses that summoning lore will give:
106: hide. Awesome?
110: Unbalance. Alright, this one is a good bonus. However, you'll likely have a higher CS with 708 for less mana to get a critter prone.
111: Minor DF increase. Not worth the TP unless you're already at the point of overtaining spells.
116: Don't care.
118: Biggest benefit
125: 2+ spell ranks to save 1 second each time you cast... Time when you're likely resting anyway.
130: Aim a little better
715: More curse power... but you're likely so overtained in sorc ranks that it doesn't matter.

Unless you're going to bring up non-native spells. In which case, I'd argue blessing is probably a stronger lore than summoning.

118 really is the biggest benefit, and it's so good, it's almost valid if you're a spell aiming build. But I wouldn't prioritize it over 67 MnS, 75 MnE, and Level+21 Sorc ranks.

Regarding adding the ability to effectively hunt bandits. Again, we'll go back to the cost: 9/3 for spell aiming. Do you train in 1x Survival at 3/2 to make herb foraging bounties easier, or survival and skinning (5/3) to do skinning? Both of those are lower costs, and offer a new alternative way to get BPs.

How many TP are you willing to spend per level to do one particular type of bounty more effectively?

[Allereli]

You clearly don't care whatever I or anyone else with years of experience playing sorcerers say even though you keep asking questions. suggest whatever you want, it's your guide. Good luck to the users. But you should include that you've never leveled one up yourself and your only experience is from MAing your purchased high level one, not that there's anything wrong with it.

[Silvean]

I rely heavily on focused limb disruption as an essential opening and disabling spell for certain creatures. It is remarkable that creatures like Minotaur Warriors and Triton Combatants will just stand there doing nothing once you rip off their weapon arm.

I enjoy using focused implosion when I am in a hurry. The biggest problem with FI is my fear of vaporizing a creature holding a player's weapon by accident.

Keeping up with 2x spell aiming has been well worth it to me for the runestaff defense and two benefits above while advancing from level 70 to 100. I recognize you are attempting to quantify the difference between 1x spell aiming and additional spell ranks versus 2x spell aiming; the results may be noteworthy.

Now, in regard to the discussion shift toward postcap goals, 90 ranks of summoning lore would be a fine one. Some people swear by web bolt because it handles griffins and bandits. Hunting bandits as a sorcerer takes some brass and I would listen carefully to anyone who is successful at it. I would find cross-realm locating and the ability to quickly 125 boxes in the field to be useful additional perks. Consider that the locate pairs well with the sorcerer native ability to travel instantly across the world with 740 even though this is now a mass commodity; I just like the taste of omniscience. That said, I am joylessly grinding out combat maneuver ranks at present and summoning lore seems quite distant.

Sorcerers legitimately complain that the profession is forced into cookie cutter builds. I think this conversation is unearthing at least a few training strategies, divergent and viable, and that's a good thing to have written out.

[Jeril]

Handling bandits is all about the spell tanking or a partner. It is easy enough to quake/ewave then hit them with 705 while they are down as it is to hit them with ball spells, or 702 if mana is an issue. My sorcerer is up to 68 and he has only ever been a max CS build. There are certainly other paths but none of them align with my goals quite so well.

I've also been told that because my sorcerer has spent most of the last 18ish levels hunting with my wizard that my build/experience doesn't count even though hunting him without the wizard isn't that much more difficult. To me it wouldn't make any sense to hunt him solo when they are only a level a part and it is easier to hunt them together then to do them one at a time.

[Allereli]

I've also been told that because my sorcerer has spent most of the last 18ish levels hunting with my wizard that my build/experience doesn't count even though hunting him without the wizard isn't that much more difficult. To me it wouldn't make any sense to hunt him solo when they are only a level a part and it is easier to hunt them together then to do them one at a time.

so maybe retitle to Guide to MAing Sorcery?

[MrMortimur]

With regards to bandits, I find myself using Quake (709) whenever I accidentally run out of the room when they spawn. Happens often as I'll pick an out of the way cluster of 2-3 rooms and simply move back and forth until they spawn. With 709 knocking down stuff in adjecent rooms I certainly find it very useful. If I'm in a group, I make sure to throw out the 410 just to tag for kills and ensorcell energy accumulation of every bandit in room.

[Jeril]

so maybe retitle to Guide to MAing Sorcery?

What part of, I can hunt him solo if I wanted to is hard to understand? It is just silly to do it. And if you doubt that I can hunt him solo you are more then welcome to tag along on a hunt. You just toss in the fact that I MA because you disagree with the way train. Never mind the fact that I mostly hunted him solo from 0 up to 52 or 53.

[Allereli]

What part of, I can hunt him solo if I wanted to is hard to understand? It is just silly to do it. And if you doubt that I can hunt him solo you are more then welcome to tag along on a hunt. You just toss in the fact that I MA because you disagree with the way train. Never mind the fact that I mostly hunted him solo from 0 up to 52 or 53.

but do you do anything with your sorcerer besides hunt for necro? are you taking the sorcerer on quests? did you go to Lord Vathon's lectures last year? are you a necromancer (and I don't mean solely for the sake of ensorcell) or demonologist? this is a great guide for making a sorcerer slave, but is it a good guide for making a fully realized character?

[Whirlin]

You clearly don't care whatever I or anyone else with years of experience playing sorcerers say even though you keep asking questions. suggest whatever you want, it's your guide. Good luck to the users. But you should include that you've never leveled one up yourself and your only experience is from MAing your purchased high level one, not that there's anything wrong with it.
Sorry that you get upset when I ask you to quantify and qualify your statements and challenge the arguments that you make.



I rely heavily on focused limb disruption as an essential opening and disabling spell for certain creatures. It is remarkable that creatures like Minotaur Warriors and Triton Combatants will just stand there doing nothing once you rip off their weapon arm.

I'm a bit surprised by your hunting choice of Minotaurs as a Sorc. Given the heavy amount of CMANs, I opted to plow through Maaghara without batting an eye. What made you decide to hunt there? Just prefer the landing to the anti-darky racism?



I enjoy using focused implosion when I am in a hurry. The biggest problem with FI is my fear of vaporizing a creature holding a player's weapon by accident.

I agree, it's an awesome tool to have in your arsenal, regardless of how often you need it... Once of those things that once you have a need for it, you're glad you have it. Like Sigil of Escape.

I'll be really interested to see the results of 1x spell aiming versus 2x spell aiming in regards to FI as well. I know Sorc Ranks is also a weighted value, so it may not be so different.



Sorcerers legitimately complain that the profession is forced into cookie cutter builds. I think this conversation is unearthing at least a few training strategies, divergent and viable, and that's a good thing to have written out.
Absolutely, and as they should! Of all the pures, they're the least aligned to physical skills.

[Whirlin]

but do you do anything with your sorcerer besides hunt for necro? are you taking the sorcerer on quests? did you go to Lord Vathon's lectures last year? are you a necromancer (and I don't mean solely for the sake of ensorcell) or demonologist? this is a great guide for making a sorcerer slave, but is it a good guide for making a fully realized character?

Characters are what you make of them. I've seen a cleric RP a bard that couldn't sing worth a shit. Your combat skills play little to no part in how you play your character when interacting with others.

[Allereli]

Characters are what you make of them. I've seen a cleric RP a bard that couldn't sing worth a shit. Your combat skills play little to no part in how you play your character when interacting with others.

so you're going to play a demonologist that can't summon off of an uncommon rune? that's one pathetic demonologist.


I'm a bit surprised by your hunting choice of Minotaurs as a Sorc. Given the heavy amount of CMANs, I opted to plow through Maaghara without batting an eye. What made you decide to hunt there? Just prefer the landing to the anti-darky racism?

I hunted both depending on what was going on.

you're asking me to waste my time with digging up information I no longer have since I capped two years ago. you don't believe me, then go read every training advice thread answered by others. Sorry, I have other stuff to work on. I didn't ask you any questions about sorcery, you asked me, and you disregard what I say with "I don't care about that aspect" or "that's only for these certain situations."

[Tgo01]

I bet Jeril doesn't even give his demons a reach around.

[Jeril]

but do you do anything with your sorcerer besides hunt for necro? are you taking the sorcerer on quests? did you go to Lord Vathon's lectures last year? are you a necromancer (and I don't mean solely for the sake of ensorcell) or demonologist? this is a great guide for making a sorcerer slave, but is it a good guide for making a fully realized character?

Not many of those fit with my time constraints, and the one or two that I would have been able to attend I forgot about, I don't check the calendar as much as I should. I don't make it a secret that Jeril gets most of my love as a character either. Outside of gaining energy for the week I'll hunt more if I feel like it, other times I don't because I have other alts. As far as lores go, I am not sure which way I want to go yet, but is it really such a bad thing to take ones time in deciding such a thing?

[zhelas]

Zhelas has been trained for a Necromancer. 101 ranks of necro and 52 ranks of demonology (wish i had more time to play, however my job prevents me playing more.)

In my opinion, I believe that aimed 708 is the best opening spell as well. With the weapon arm removed. The creature just stands there. They can't swing a weapon, cast a spell(unless they are a bard and sing) or do a maneuver. So Minotaurs were very easy. They could not do the bull rush. I even have my Cloak of Shadows retribution set to 708. Arm gone? They can't hurt you.

Heck I even had Zhelas hunt the bowels. Folks will say that the bowels is sorcerer unfriendly. Remember I said that Zhelas trained as a necromancer so 711 was awesome. Get a creature in excruciating pain, they get locked into hard round time.

I would suggest 91 ranks of summoning lores instead of 90. Why? 91 is the next tier for the DF value on 111.

Folks were arguing about 111. Remember it is easy to imbed rods with that spell. Saves mana. Also an open area web benefits from summoning lore. more than likely the creatures will get stuck in the web. Then with 111 boom.. Hits the creatures. sets the web on fire. burns the creatures. CRB aka Virilneus has mastered that method of attack in OTF and swears by it with his sorcerer.

Having 125 go faster and being able to cast inside with summoning lores is quite nice. 125 on an invasion creature with it releasing its energy faster is nice. No CS check or AS/DS check. Might not do a lot of damage at times but it will hit the creature.

Focused implosion is really level dependent. Killing a War Griffin, Greater Water Elemental, Taldorian Knight etc with FI isn't always an instant kill.
Focused implosion from a creature is more than likely an instant kill if not very close. Just ask the Sunfisters who hunt war camps. A witch, dissembler, warlock, sorcerer etc comes into the room. Better kill that caster fast. Otherwise it is more than likely going to end with a your corpse falling from the sky into an empath's lap.
Character FI is not the same as Creature FI.

[zhelas]

The other day there was a huge discussion about Focused Maelstrom. Some folks swear by it.

In my opinion, this spell is ok till about level 40 or so. With the introduction of the BCS (Basic Creature Script?) on creatures. Unlike the GSIII days where creatures just stood around and got pounded on. Creatures will flee when this spell is cast. As the spell caster, you have to follow that creature into the next room so the spell will work and doesn't dissipate. Pain in the ass.

After level 40, the creatures will start to use more maneuvers against you. 710 takes FOREVER to get going. So while you stand there waiting for it to grow in strength you might get disarmed, tackled etc. Grimswarm dispel it or at least they used to.

710 needs love. It needs to be influenced by lores.
710 is very level dependent. I had a Taldorian Knight with out it's right arm and left leg so it couldn't stand. For grins i cast 710 on it to see if it would work. The knight dodged every single strike.

[Sorcasaurus]

I agree that 708 is one of the best opening spells, but until you approach endgame does it matter which limb you remove? Until then, I've found that removing any limb incapacitates the critter long enough for me to kill it before it recovers. Admittedly I haven't spent too much time in minos. Not because it was difficult, I was just elsewhere with hunting grounds I enjoyed enough not to feel a need to.

If there are enough mobs that I'd need them to stand around a while, I'm likely going to be using evil eye to get them all with one cast. Occasionally open implode to finish any that didn't die. 706 can help do this as well, and leaves them already stunned for 705. Warcamps are the only area I can think of where this may not work as well.

I'm not against spell aiming, for me it's just something to get at much later levels (Post 65-70). Before that point, I prefer to max my CS as much as possible and fill in some of the more combat "necessary" lores (like maxing cloak reaction).

[Whirlin]

If a creature is a caster, I've found 703 to be the cheapest, most effective disabler.
If a creature has deadly CMANs, and is stunnable that won't break it, 706 is an effective opener... Followed by 705 spam due to the extra damage cycle on stunned mobs. (short lived window here though...)
If neither of those conditions exist, 708 a limb/leg/whatnot off.

As far as 710 is concerned... That was a consistent nerf across the board for all cloud type spells. That was also around when Stun Cloud got moved over to the Arcane circle. Stun Cloud, Death Cloud, Fire Storm, and Maelstrom all got destroyed. Prior to the nerf, people would just 710 critters to death, while completely turtled in defensive (of course, for a sorc its not far off from the norm!). The cloud spells are pretty much universally worthless now... except 125, if you want to consider that a cloud spell.

Still remember my level 6 wizard hunting reverents in Rivers Rest using Stun Cloud, and selling their half plates for 639 silvers at the pawnshop, and making BANK... Just cast 904, and sit there waiting for the critters to die. It was actually a pretty required nerf... I heard about wizards/sorcs hunting like, 20 levels ahead of themselves via clouds.

[Sorcasaurus]

If a creature is a caster, I've found 703 to be the cheapest, most effective disabler.

Do you do this before 719 casts? Seems a bit redundant, as I can't remember the last time 719 didn't disable a caster. I guess non-corporeal?


(short lived window here though...)

If they don't break stuns, how short lived is it? If you're using 705 I would hope you're warding by more than a small margin. If you're barely warding, both mana and damage are better served by 702.

From Krakii: 1 second per warding failure on 706




I would LOVE If 710 (fine, and other cloud spells) got a bit of a rework.

[nindon]

The other day there was a huge discussion about Focused Maelstrom. Some folks swear by it.

In my opinion, this spell is ok till about level 40 or so. With the introduction of the BCS (Basic Creature Script?) on creatures. Unlike the GSIII days where creatures just stood around and got pounded on. Creatures will flee when this spell is cast. As the spell caster, you have to follow that creature into the next room so the spell will work and doesn't dissipate. Pain in the ass.

I agree. FM is great in many places until higher levels. If you are at or above the target's level, then it is usually a guaranteed kill for just 10 mana, or 20 mana if you're in a hurry. If you are a few levels above the target, then it is devastating.

I wanted to use FM on the high TD krolvin shamans in Rivers Rest, but the level restrictions on the spell make that impractical. It is very sensitive to minor level differences. Some of the shamans appraise as being able to wipe the floor with me.

In searching for a way to deal with the shamans, I discovered Call Lighting. I've never until now used it as a regular hunting spell. But after using it a lot in Rivers Rest, I see it as an alternative to FM. You must have a lot of lore to use Call Lightning without frustration. I had heard that it automatically does a rank 9 crit, but that is not true. What I do is cast 703 on the shamans, then immediately cast 125. Then I wait for the shaman to try to cast at me, which it will fail to do because of spell 703. I know it won't run away from the cloud until it has tried to cast at least once. Then I cast FI on it, which normally does a small amount of damage and stuns it long enough for the first strike from the cloud. The cloud knocks it down on every strike, so it never has enough time to stand up and flee. I deal with the slavers and brigands with old reliable mana disrupt and sometimes mind jolt if it gets crowded.

[Silvean]

I'm a bit surprised by your hunting choice of Minotaurs as a Sorc. Given the heavy amount of CMANs, I opted to plow through Maaghara without batting an eye. What made you decide to hunt there? Just prefer the landing to the anti-darky racism?

I believe I was tethered to Wehnimer's for RP and sorcerer guild work at the time. Minotaurs and friends were easy enough with the right disabling spells and common sense.

Starting around level 70 in GS4 I went: Minotaurs->Aqueducts->Plane 5->Temporary Hunting Area in Illistim->Nelemar

[zhelas]

I used to use 706 until i realized I could achieve the same results with an aimed 708. Shoot if you wanted to you could blood burst them to death when their attack arm is removed. The GMs have fixed a bug that stopped the necromancy modifications with 708. According to Krakiipedia, 25% of the disrupted limbs will animate and attempt to either knock over or drag creatures to the ground putting them in round time.

I started using 703 when I hunted stronghold. Everyone who has hunted stronghold or the bowels knows that the Illoyke spawn with stonefist prepped and ready to cast at you. 703 will cause them to fail. It worked wonders vs the Fire Mages. In the rift Vaespilons are implosion happy. 703 will disrupt their spell casting. At cap, I use it versus the Triton Sentries.

[zhelas]

Speaking of fire mages, if you don't have a bounty and you are hunting the fire mages, use 718 on them and then move one room away. You do have to remain in full offensive to prevent a huge TD penalty versus your spell. Wait for the Fire Mage to be killed by the summoned demon then move back to the room, loot it's corpse and gain the experience. NO death flare damage!

Unfortunately, one of the GMs said there was no risk involved with that kind of hunting tactic therefore no bounty rewards. I had provided a post with my sorcerer moving away after successfully casting 718 on a fire mage. I put zhelas in full defense. The result? My sorcerer died from the 718 backlash. Then I was told the spell was working as intended but still no bounty rewards. Which makes no sense at all because if you are hunting a grizzled creature and for some reason you head to town and someone kills it. You do get some credit for its death.

[zhelas]

Still remember my level 6 wizard hunting reverents in Rivers Rest using Stun Cloud, and selling their half plates for 639 silvers at the pawnshop, and making BANK... Just cast 904, and sit there waiting for the critters to die. It was actually a pretty required nerf... I heard about wizards/sorcs hunting like, 20 levels ahead of themselves via clouds.

Yep. Creatures used to just swarm like mad. It wasn't uncommon for a pure to turtle up cast the cloud or the maelstrom and yell STORMING! or CLOUD!

There was a lot of complaining about this. Folks were really mad when they walked in on your cloud or storm. Focused Maelstrom was then invented and it was pretty powerful. Then again creatures didn't have BCS so you didn't have to chase them all over the area.

[zhelas]

Do you do this before 719 casts? Seems a bit redundant, as I can't remember the last time 719 didn't disable a caster. I guess non-corporeal?

To use 719 or not use 719 really is situational.

719 can kill you if you use it in a wet environment. One of it's flares is lightning. So if you are in a room where there is water. Examples: Second floor in Nelemar or in Ta' Faendryl North where you type go shore to get access to that room. Lightning will kill you.

Don't know if 719 will set off the gas in the bowels. I know that fire, plasma and cone lightning will.

When hunting Sentries. 703, 715 to lower their TD, then 711 to kill them. If I could cast 719 on them i am sure it would destroy them.

[Allereli]

Don't know if 719 will set off the gas in the bowels. I know that fire, plasma and cone lightning will.

it will. it hurts.

[Whirlin]

Do you do this before 719 casts? Seems a bit redundant, as I can't remember the last time 719 didn't disable a caster. I guess non-corporeal?
You're right... added criteria would be unstunnable casters.



If they don't break stuns, how short lived is it? If you're using 705 I would hope you're warding by more than a small margin. If you're barely warding, both mana and damage are better served by 702.
Ahh, poor wording choice on my part. I meant it's typically a short lived leveling window in gemstone where you're gonna be fighting deadly CMAN critters that aren't immune to stun, or can't break stuns.

[Flap]

To the experienced sorcerer critics in the thread: Can you provide a link to an updated guide that reflects your views(or you feel is otherwise superior) on the class?

Remember, this is a thread created for the purpose of helping people. I'm here to L2sorc, not watch you fling filth at each other.

[subzero]

If a creature is a caster, I've found 703 to be the cheapest, most effective disabler.

703 is temporary, though. If you're taking down a group of things or the one you're working on won't die before it wears off, 708 is the way to go.


As far as 710 is concerned... That was a consistent nerf across the board for all cloud type spells. That was also around when Stun Cloud got moved over to the Arcane circle. Stun Cloud, Death Cloud, Fire Storm, and Maelstrom all got destroyed. Prior to the nerf, people would just 710 critters to death, while completely turtled in defensive (of course, for a sorc its not far off from the norm!). The cloud spells are pretty much universally worthless now... except 125, if you want to consider that a cloud spell.

710 isn't worthless if you're like-leveled. As you get higher in levels, you have more mana to use better spells and the things you fight are more dangerous. At that point, using 710 is not only unnecessary (useful at lower levels to conserve mana), but risky if you don't couple with disabling attacks or it's just a pain in the ass having to wait around or chase things as they run from it. At cap, you're hunting things over your level and obviously that severely reduces the effectiveness of 710 which you've outgrown anyway.

[Allereli]

To the experienced sorcerer critics in the thread: Can you provide a link to an updated guide that reflects your views(or you feel is otherwise superior) on the class?

Remember, this is a thread created for the purpose of helping people. I'm here to L2sorc, not watch you fling filth at each other.

from last year:


at least I got some useful red rep out of it, and I kinda like the idea of using a dwarf ...crb made some good points heh

Thread: So you want to be a pure? Whirlin's Guide to Sorcerers (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?83173-So-you-want-to-be-a-pure-Whirlin-s-Guide-to-Sorcerers&p=1560529#post1560529)
Here's your guide: 2.3x spells, 2x spell aim, 1x EMC/SMC, 1x+AS, 1x MIU, 1x harness power, .6x PF, 8 ranks armor, some climbing, some swimming, demonology for 704/740 (see the chart), necro for 735/711 (see the chart), .5x perception, .5x survival

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Lore_chart

still being worked on, but the base info is there

[Whirlin]

703 is temporary, though. If you're taking down a group of things or the one you're working on won't die before it wears off, 708 is the way to go.

If you're entering a group full of deadly casters / CMAN users, you're gonna have a bad time!

But, for rooms full of mobs, I thought the go-to disabler would be 410, 435, or... run and 709.

[Sorcasaurus]

To use 719 or not use 719 really is situational.

You're absolutely correct. The last few posts have really been listing a lot of these situations, and I didn't specify. I didn't even think about the wet rooms. They're not places I find myself with any frequency on my sorcerer.

[zhelas]

To the experienced sorcerer critics in the thread: Can you provide a link to an updated guide that reflects your views(or you feel is otherwise superior) on the class?

Remember, this is a thread created for the purpose of helping people. I'm here to L2sorc, not watch you fling filth at each other.

There is no guide per say. I have read the sorcerer's forum on the officials, read these posts, used http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page and trying things out.

My advice to you is to read as much as you can. Look at training paths. Ask questions on how one should approach creatures. Before going to a new hunting ground read what is special about those creatures. You will learn things like CvA. Cast vs Armor. Creatures in full plate are harder to hit than those that wear lesser types of armor.

Should I use a shield or should i use a runestaff. Both are viable options. Choose the style you see your sorcerer using.

Use the peer verb to look into the room you are going to enter. See if there is a swarm. Then move in and crowd control. If you see an implosion crazy sentry move in and cast 703. If a creature has a devastating maneuver. Like Krynches. If you have enough ranks of necro use pain to prevent its boulder attack.

You will find your own style of hunting. If massive CS is your thing then train for it. However you will sacrifice other things that Sorcerers can do. When Zhelas capped his CS was only 512. With post cap training I have started working on increasing his CS.

Spiritual summoning lores are not a requirement pre cap. It is a nice thing to have but not necessary. All the benefits from spiritual summoning came out after i capped my sorcerer. Zhelas has 91 ranks now.

Training in physical fitness every level is nice. There are benefits but you can cap with only 24 ranks unless you are in the society Guardians of Sunfist. Combat Maneuvers will always be the bane of your existence.

The biggest problem with script hunting like Bigshot is you don't really learn the class you are playing. Sure you can sit and watch the spells in action but the computer does everything for you.

As a sorcerer, you can hunt every creature in game. Yes even the ones that are immune to magic. Animate Dead works wonders versus undead, constructs etc...

[Allereli]

To the experienced sorcerer critics in the thread: Can you provide a link to an updated guide that reflects your views(or you feel is otherwise superior) on the class?

Remember, this is a thread created for the purpose of helping people. I'm here to L2sorc, not watch you fling filth at each other.

also, if you want to read Whirlin's guide, just read the first few posts of the thread and ignore the rest.

[Sorcasaurus]

To the experienced sorcerer critics in the thread: Can you provide a link to an updated guide that reflects your views(or you feel is otherwise superior) on the class?

Remember, this is a thread created for the purpose of helping people. I'm here to L2sorc, not watch you fling filth at each other.

There are also many threads here on PC that cover a fair bit of this. Usually titled "Just returned to the lands..." or "Help me something or other". Example (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?82192-New-sorc-help!/page3)

[Flap]

There is no guide per say. I have read the sorcerer's forum on the officials, read these posts, used http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page and trying things out.

That's pretty much what I gathered from my googling. I had a slight hope that there was another good guide, but I mostly wanted to encourage the spirit of collaboration over destructive criticism.

[zhelas]

If you gain a new spell. Try it out. What does it cost? Mana? In the worst case scenario you get killed and you have to be raised. But heck you learned something from it. I never used focused maelstrom after spectral miners. But for fun I went out and tried spells in my list that i never use just to mix things up. Shoot I might learn something about the class that I knew nothing about.

Jenovadeathe and his sword that would make your eyes bleed after you read its description was very entertaining reads. At one time when you animated a troll king you could create your own invasion army. When you removed a limb from your animated troll king, that limb would grow into a new troll king. Very shortly he had quite a few troll kings wandering solhaven. Grant it he was seeking a little revenge against the town. But it is entertaining. Too bad the GMs intervened and now you can't do that anymore.

He also killed the ferry captain between Illistrim and Ta Valoor. He set a heavy quarts orb on the ground and cast an open implosion. The implosion sucked the orb into the rift but before the orb disappeared, the captain got hit in the head and died. Jenovadeathe was able to loot him.

When the bounty system first came out I wanted to see if you could animate the traveler or the kid you rescued..... sadly no.

[subzero]

If you're entering a group full of deadly casters / CMAN users, you're gonna have a bad time!

That's very un-sorcererly thinking.


But, for rooms full of mobs, I thought the go-to disabler would be 410, 435, or... run and 709.

As an opener, sure. It's only temporary as far as disabling goes, though. Taking an arm, leg, or both off is a permanent affliction for anything but trolls. Pesky non-corporeal undead caster? Phase, remove arm.

Also, 708 is great for warcamps or other places that swarm. You might not enter a full room, but it can fill up quickly. The more permanently disabled targets around, the better.

[zhelas]

That's very un-sorcererly thinking.
Agreed.

Another possibility would be to 709. Walk in. Cast an open implosion. The creatures when they are in a prone position tend to get sucked into the void easier. Then dispel the rift. Quick fry. For those of us who can't type fast accurately, set a macro to cast the spell and a macro to dispel the void.

Find a wizard friend with rapid fire. 702 under rapid fire is very nice indeed.

[zhelas]

Oh another fun fact with sorcery. We can unleash a demon with catastrophic failure of 740.

At the time of the following post, I was one of 5 sorcerers that had this happen. http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?44493-1-count-of-Demon-Summoning

Sorcery Science!!!

I was in the process of leaving Teras.....WHEN... this happened.

You gesture at a summoning circle.
A small shadowy rift begins to take form before your eyes. Suddenly, a flurried black haze slices at you from within the rift.
... 70 points of damage!
Wicked slash slices open your chest!
Heart and lungs pureed!
Sickening!
Spell Cloak of Shadows (712) ended. [-113DS, -28SorcTD]
A dark shadow seems to detach itself from your body, swiftly dissipating into the air.
Spell Thurfel's Ward (503) ended. [-20DS]
The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
Spell Water Walking (112) ended.
The misty halo fades from you.
Spell Mass Blur (911) ended. [-20Dodging]
You become solid again.
Spell Strength (509) ended. [-15Str, -15PhysAS]
You feel your extra strength departing.
Spell Spirit Defense (103) ended.
The powerful look leaves you.
Spell Spirit Barrier (102) ended. [+44PhysAS, -44DS]
The air calms down around you.
Spell Spirit Warding II (107) ended. [-15STD, -25BoltDS]
The deep blue glow leaves you.
Spell Spirit Warding I (101) ended. [-10STD, -10BoltDS]
The light blue glow leaves you.
Spell Elemental Defense III (414) ended. [-20DS, -15ETD]
The brilliant luminescence fades from around you.
Spell Elemental Defense II (406) ended. [-10DS, -10ETD]
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
Spell Elemental Defense I (401) ended. [-5DS, -5ETD]
The silvery luminescence fades from around you.
Spell Natural Colors (601) ended. [-10DS]
You return to normal color.
Spell Mobility (618) ended. [-20Dodging]
You no longer feel so dextrous.
Spell Resist Elements (602) ended. [-15BoltDS]
The air about you stops shimmering.
The white light leaves you.
Spell Lesser Shroud (120) ended. [-20STD, -30DS, -30BoltDS]
The very powerful look leaves you.

It seems you have died, my friend. Although you cannot do anything, you are keenly aware of what is going on around you...

You mentally give a sigh of relief as you remember that the Goddess Lorminstra owes you a favor.

...departing in 10 mins...

A strong gust of wind blows away the chalky outline of a summoning circle.

The rift begins to waver lazily and suddenly implodes upon itself in a large plume of soot-filled black smoke. When the rift clears, a lithe black abyran'ra is standing around, surveying the surroundings.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
DEAD>
* Zhelas just bit the dust!
DEAD>
Speaking to you, Japhrimel says, "Woops."
DEAD>
A lithe black abyran'ra tries to sink its curved fangs into Bumpur!
AS: +480 vs DS: +281 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +29 = +253
... and hits for 22 points of damage!
Neck vertebrae snap.
He is stunned!
DEAD>
Styxa comes out of hiding.
Styxa raises a hand while murmuring a soft orison...
DEAD>
Styxa gestures at you.
You feel a tingle on your soul, as if a powerful hand is gently cradling it.
(Thy soul is bound to thy body for an extra 12 minutes and 30 seconds.)

Japhrimel says, "Aw, lovely."
DEAD>
A lithe black abyran'ra tries to sink its curved fangs into Lourraine!
AS: +480 vs DS: +259 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +83 = +336
... and hits for 109 points of damage!
Quick, powerful slash to Lourraine's right knee!

* Lourraine drops dead at your feet!

The silvery luminescence fades from around Lourraine.
A shadow seems to detach itself from Lourraine's body, swiftly dissipating into the air.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around Lourraine.
The misty halo fades from Lourraine.
The white light leaves Lourraine.
The very powerful look leaves Lourraine.
The deep blue glow leaves Lourraine.
The air calms down around Lourraine.
The light blue glow leaves Lourraine.
The powerful look leaves Lourraine.
The bright luminescence fades from around Lourraine.
The serpents upon a lithe black abyran'ra's head writhe and undulate in exultation!
DEAD>
swivels head toward Payme and hisses..
DEAD>
* Lourraine just bit the dust!
DEAD>
Japhrimel exclaims, "Kill it!"
DEAD>
Payme just went south.
DEAD>
The voice of Sadrae asks, "What the?"
DEAD>
The ghostly voice of Lourraine says, "O geez."
DEAD>
Suddenly you have the strangest feeling that you are being watched.
The feeling fades as quickly as it came.
DEAD>
Renowned Lady Sraven just went south.
DEAD>
A lithe black abyran'ra scythes its talons back and forth as it hisses a sibilant invocation.
DEAD>
Suddenly you have the strangest feeling that you are being watched.
The feeling fades as quickly as it came.
DEAD>
The ghostly voice of Lourraine asks, "What is this?"
DEAD>
Japhrimel says, "Demon."
DEAD>
A lithe black abyran'ra swiftly raises its arms and slashes its talons at Monidoe!
A lithe black abyran'ra hurls a roaring ball of fire at Monidoe!
AS: +444 vs DS: +225 with AvD: +57 + d100 roll: +6 = +282
... and hits for 111 points of damage!
A large patch of flesh is seared off Monidoe's back.
She is stunned!
The roaring ball of fire strikes Monidoe, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 70 points of damage!
Fire completely surrounds Monidoe. Blood boils and heart stops.

* Monidoe drops dead at your feet!

Monidoe glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The powerful look leaves Monidoe.
The white light leaves Monidoe.
The very powerful look leaves Monidoe.
The bright luminescence fades from around Monidoe.
A shadow seems to detach itself from Monidoe's body, swiftly dissipating into the air.
The light blue glow leaves Monidoe.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around Monidoe.
The air calms down around Monidoe.
The deep blue glow leaves Monidoe.
The silvery luminescence fades from around Monidoe.
A lithe black abyran'ra becomes as still as a statue, its pupiless eyes turning a pure incarnadine shade.
DEAD>
Morphias just arrived.
DEAD>
* Monidoe just bit the dust!
DEAD>
Payme just arrived.
DEAD>
Suddenly you have the strangest feeling that you are being watched.
The feeling fades as quickly as it came.
DEAD>
A lithe black abyran'ra scythes its talons back and forth as it hisses a sibilant invocation.
DEAD>
The ghostly voice of Lourraine says, "I just go ressurected."
DEAD>
Japhrimel exclaims, "It might need to be phased!"
DEAD>
Lourraine's spirit lets out a hollow moan.
DEAD>
Payme swings a closed fist at a lithe black abyran'ra, but it has no effect!
DEAD>
Nuc stands up.
DEAD>
Nuc just went north.
DEAD>
Suddenly you have the strangest feeling that you are being watched.
The feeling fades as quickly as it came.
DEAD>
A lithe black abyran'ra swiftly raises its arms and slashes its talons at Payme!
CS: +416 - TD: +184 + CvA: +2 + d100: +91 == +325
Warding failed!
... 40 points of damage!
Chest strike. Payme knocked down and stunned!
He is knocked to the ground!
He is stunned!
DEAD>
Sadrae comes out of hiding.
Sadrae traces a sign that contorts in the air while she forcefully incants a dark invocation...
DEAD>
Sadrae gestures at a lithe black abyran'ra.
CS: +532 - TD: +485 + CvA: +25 + d100: +50 == +122
Warding failed!
... and hits for 21 points of damage!
A lithe black abyran'ra is suddenly engulfed in flames of pure essence!
... 15 points of damage!
A frosty blow to the neck. Bet that smarts!
... 20 points of damage!
Light shock to right arm. That stings!
... 20 points of damage!
Blow grazes neck lightly.
DEAD>
Japhrimel drops all defense as he moves into a battle-ready stance.
DEAD>
A lithe black abyran'ra whips its coils underneath itself swiftly, then suddenly tenses its muscles, leaping forth with astonishing speed toward Payme!
The black abyran'ra lashes out with its tail as it nears Payme, catching him around his waist as it spins in ever tighter circles! Within mere seconds, its coils wrap tightly around Payme, and its lidless eyes stare intently at him before it makes a sharp dive, moving fluidly to let its fangs find his neck!
... 5 points of damage!
Minor strike to the neck.

The black abyran'ra loosens its coils and slithers to the ground.
DEAD>
Japhrimel's sonic pike is repelled by the chaotic forces surrounding the black abyran'ra!
DEAD>
Bumpur just arrived.
DEAD>
Sadrae traces a sign that contorts in the air while she forcefully incants a dark invocation...
DEAD>
Sadrae gestures at a lithe black abyran'ra.
CS: +532 - TD: +485 + CvA: +25 + d100: +51 == +123
Warding failed!
... and hits for 20 points of damage!
A lithe black abyran'ra is suddenly engulfed in flames of pure essence!
... 5 points of damage!
The black abyran'ra winces at the cold blast to the left arm.
... 20 points of damage!
... 15 points of damage!
Blow grazes neck lightly.
The black abyran'ra sustains massive system shock!
DEAD>chat to mysd one sec
You focus on transmitting your thought.
DEAD>
Speaking to Sadrae, Japhrimel says, "Phase it."
DEAD>
Sadrae traces a sign that contorts in the air while she forcefully incants a dark invocation...
DEAD>
Sadrae gestures at a lithe black abyran'ra.
CS: +532 - TD: +485 + CvA: +25 + d100: +35 == +107
Warding failed!
... and hits for 10 points of damage!
A lithe black abyran'ra is suddenly engulfed in flames of pure essence!
... 15 points of damage!
... 15 points of damage!
Light shock to right arm. That stings!
... 15 points of damage!
Blow to back connects lightly.
The black abyran'ra sustains massive system shock!
A lithe black abyran'ra's coronet of serpents let loose a shrieking hiss as it crashes to the ground and expires.
DEAD>
Japhrimel moves into a defensive stance, ready to fend off an attack.
DEAD>
Sadrae searches a lithe black abyran'ra.
The black abyran'ra's body bleeds with a shadowy blackness that seeps across its flesh as it melts away into nothing.

[subzero]

Why was Japh wanting it phased? Does that help melee against it or something? I like a good shot of 703, couple dispels, and 719 to kill.

[Velfi]

Why was Japh wanting it phased? Does that help melee against it or something? I like a good shot of 703, couple dispels, and 719 to kill.

I believe it's so that people with < 8x weapons can hit it. I've found that a couple doses of 530 against them works wonders so that you can then shred it at your leisure, but that is obviously not a very sorcerous option.

[Flap]

If you gain a new spell. Try it out. What does it cost? (snip)

I agree that a large part of the fun of this game is discovering what you can do with any given character. However, for people that don't want to spend absurd amounts of money on fixstats and suchlike, or a large amount of time rerolling, it's good to have updated, comprehensive info available.

[Sorcasaurus]

Oh another fun fact with sorcery. We can unleash a demon with catastrophic failure of 740.

At the time of the following post, I was one of 5 sorcerers that had this happen. http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?44493-1-count-of-Demon-Summoning

Sorcery Science!!!

....


The black abyran'ra's body bleeds with a shadowy blackness that seeps across its flesh as it melts away into nothing.

When 740 came out it was bugged and Demons were much more common than intended. I ended up getting 2 in the same day before someone politely (http://pincaption.com/media/gallery/original/see-this-shit-stop-it-funny-image-139485646725852655.jpg) informed me about it. I thought it was fantastic!

I haven't seen one since and it makes me sad :cry:

[subzero]

When 740 came out it was bugged and Demons were much more common than intended. I ended up getting 2 in the same day before someone politely (http://pincaption.com/media/gallery/original/see-this-shit-stop-it-funny-image-139485646725852655.jpg) informed me about it. I thought it was fantastic!

I haven't seen one since and it makes me sad :cry:

You should've seen Nelemar in Shattered with just two of us using 740 to return from hunts. It was fucking ridiculous.

[Whirlin]

I agree that a large part of the fun of this game is discovering what you can do with any given character. However, for people that don't want to spend absurd amounts of money on fixstats and suchlike, or a large amount of time rerolling, it's good to have updated, comprehensive info available.

While I completely understand where you're coming from, the last thing that I would ever want to do would be to reduce the back and forth. It's an incredible tool for sharing knowledge, ones' own experiences, and I'm definitely trying to take everything into account and report it on the OP whenever I have time to do updates.

There have been a lot of valuable opinions raised here, I just want to do my best to remain objective and analyze the strengths and weaknesses, aggregate and present the evaluation in an objective form to allow end readers of the guide to make their own informed decisions. But... last thing I want to do is stop discussions!

Plus, I love hearing about when shit wasn't working, and when demons go wild.

Kinda giving me an idea for a sorc event to create their own invasion of demons on a town.

[Flap]

While I completely understand where you're coming from, the last thing that I would ever want to do would be to reduce the back and forth.

Oh, definitely! I'm just saying it can be done without acting all butt-hurt. Leaving egos out(impossible, I know) and focusing on numbers rather than how many spellbots are used and what account was bought, etc.

[zhelas]

Kinda giving me an idea for a sorc event to create their own invasion of demons on a town.

My Sorcerer would vote Ta Vaalor would be a perfect place to unleash demons for Sorcery Science!

[sperry85]

So, I've read through this read many times now. And unless I'm losing my mind, there were some posts between Jeril and Whirlin about spell training for max CS. Which seem to be no where in the thread now, so I must be losing it. The sorcerer I aquired has an odd mix of spell training compared to the information I'm finding. Anyways, I've been looking through the guide and krakiipedia and am not really noticing any reason behind this. So would like to know if anyone can give any reasons for splitting up the spells in this manor.

Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Combat Maneuvers...................| 201 101
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 302 202
Magic Item Use.....................| 302 202
Spell Aiming.......................| 271 171
Harness Power......................| 201 101
Elemental Mana Control.............| 302 202
Spirit Mana Control................| 302 202
Sorcerous Lore - Necromancy........| 201 101
Perception.........................| 201 101
Climbing...........................| 90 20
Swimming...........................| 170 70

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 74

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 40

Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 189

[Allereli]

she was setup for ensorcell

[zoraster]

Which way do you think it's odd?

73 would be the natural stopping point for MnE, but other than that seems reasonable if your primary concern is ensorcelling (Sorcerer Spells are a primary for ensorcelling). I think she only gave up 2 or 3 CS by not going to MnS to 67, but someone else can check that math (+7 CS to go from 162 to 189 Sorcerer, +9 CS to go from 40 to 67 MnS).

EDIT: Ninjaed.

[Wyrmx]

she was setup for ensorcell

It appears so, assuming you want to to more than just ensorcell you could drop sorc spells to 162 and increase Minor spiritual to 67 ranks with no loss in CS strength. This would help your defenses.

[Astray]

Very very helpful guide. Thanks!

[Sorcasaurus]

OK, after a bit of testing 1x Spell aim is not worth it for either focused implosion or aimed 708.

Focused implosion:
There were few enough instant kills on non-disabled critters that I didn't bother to figure out the %. Damage wasn't all that impressive either, generally being a low enough number that 702 would have been a better cast. It still worked better on things laying down and/or stunned, but if they're disabled an open implosion would likely be just as, if not more effective.

I was able to cast it without any real failures though. I didn't watch for items on the ground being sucked in as much. I didn't check the log for it at all but will if it's something people think will change.

Aimed 708:
2x or bust! Not worth it with the CS drop. I'm migrating skill points and building a graph from 1x to 2x to show the progression. It does seem to be more effected by critter level vs caster level than I expected, with less of a penalty the more you're above the mob.

1x spell aim vs like level mobs I'd need a miracle to ward.

Observed loss: Level 63 going from full 2x to 2x - 4 ranks was a loss of 6 CS on like level mobs, 7 CS on a few bandits, so the pattern likely continues to be more of a penalty vs above level critters. Normal CS is 336, so roughly 1.8% drop in CS for a 3% drop in ranks (I wrote ranks down, can update with % of bonus/skill)


Things yet to come:
I will write a script to go through the log and get the numbers on focused implosion. I'm not going to do it by hand so there may be a small lag until I get the free time to do it.

I will post the aimed 708 CS loss chart when it's half done, then again when I finish migrating the skills.

[subzero]

OK, after a bit of testing 1x Spell aim is not worth it for either focused implosion or aimed 708.

Focused implosion:
There were few enough instant kills on non-disabled critters that I didn't bother to figure out the %. Damage wasn't all that impressive either, generally being a low enough number that 702 would have been a better cast. It still worked better on things laying down and/or stunned, but if they're disabled an open implosion would likely be just as, if not more effective.

I was able to cast it without any real failures though. I didn't watch for items on the ground being sucked in as much. I didn't check the log for it at all but will if it's something people think will change.

Perhaps a minor point, but I'm pretty sure spell aiming is also a factor in mana cost for 720.



Aimed 708:
2x or bust! Not worth it with the CS drop. I'm migrating skill points and building a graph from 1x to 2x to show the progression. It does seem to be more effected by critter level vs caster level than I expected, with less of a penalty the more you're above the mob.

1x spell aim vs like level mobs I'd need a miracle to ward.

Observed loss: Level 63 going from full 2x to 2x - 4 ranks was a loss of 6 CS on like level mobs, 7 CS on a few bandits, so the pattern likely continues to be more of a penalty vs above level critters. Normal CS is 336, so roughly 1.8% drop in CS for a 3% drop in ranks (I wrote ranks down, can update with % of bonus/skill)


Things yet to come:
I will write a script to go through the log and get the numbers on focused implosion. I'm not going to do it by hand so there may be a small lag until I get the free time to do it.

I will post the aimed 708 CS loss chart when it's half done, then again when I finish migrating the skills.

Yeah... this is one of those instances where the mantra has been parroted for good reason. Kinda thought this stuff was general knowledge. I'm too lazy to check, but Krakii should have this sort of info by now.

[Sorcasaurus]

Perhaps a minor point, but I'm pretty sure spell aiming is also a factor in mana cost for 720.



Yeah... this is one of those instances where the mantra has been parroted for good reason. Kinda thought this stuff was general knowledge. I'm too lazy to check, but Krakii should have this sort of info by now.

I believe the reduction in mana cost is from mana control, not spell aiming.

You're right, it has been the running mantra. I just hadn't used my fixskills this year and was going to put numbers to it while looking at focused implosion. I'd rather just re-post a chart than type out an explanation every time it comes up.

It's not like it's a big undertaking either, I happen to have the TPs to spare for now. I'm just noting a few numbers every once and a while.

[Silvean]

Thanks for doing this research on spell aiming.

[rolfard]

fully 2x in BOTH mana controls reduces focused implode cost to 16 mana

[Goat]

Aimed 708: ... It does seem to be more effected by critter level vs caster level than I expected, with less of a penalty the more you're above the mob.

I'm pretty sure GMs said (way back in the day) that the penalty comes from comparing your spell aim ranks to the critter's level. If your SA ranks >= 2 * critter level, you have no penalty. Your level actually doesn't matter. Even if you're maxed on SA but uphunting three levels, you'll have a small penalty.

I don't have controlled experiments to point to, but this is consistent with my experiences.

[Sorcasaurus]

I'm pretty sure GMs said (way back in the day) that the penalty comes from comparing your spell aim ranks to the critter's level. If your SA ranks >= 2 * critter level, you have no penalty. Your level actually doesn't matter. Even if you're maxed on SA but uphunting three levels, you'll have a small penalty.

I don't have controlled experiments to point to, but this is consistent with my experiences.

This seems to be correct. It holds up to what little testing I've been able to do to try and confirm it. Thanks for the info :socool:

[Whirlin]

This seems to be correct. It holds up to what little testing I've been able to do to try and confirm it. Thanks for the info :socool:

Perfect... I've updated the initial posts under the: Spell Aiming Debate section.

[Riltus]

Perfect... I've updated the initial posts under the: Spell Aiming Debate section.

Targeted Spell Aiming (708) CS penalty formula:

100 - trunc[100 * (SA ranks/(target level * 2))] = CS penalty

Example 1

SA ranks: 5
Target level: 23

100 - trunc[(100 * (5/46))] = 90 CS penalty

Example 2

SA ranks: 140
Target level: 75

100 - trunc[(100 * (140/(150))] = 7 CS penalty


Note: Penalty caps at 100 CS with 0 SA ranks.

Mark

[Whirlin]

Targeted Spell Aiming (708) CS penalty formula:

100 - trunc[100 * (SA ranks/(target level * 2))] = CS penalty

Example 1

SA ranks: 5
Target level: 23

100 - trunc[(100 * (5/46))] = 90 CS penalty

Example 2

SA ranks: 140
Target level: 75

100 - trunc[(100 * (140/(150))] = 7 CS penalty


Note: Penalty caps at 100 CS with 0 SA ranks.

Mark

Comments like this just support my thoughts that you're an off-duty GM that's assisting the players.

[Jace Solo]

Mark's forum identifier should be "Guru" or "Math Junky". Cause let's face it. He is. (however I think the last one would piss off Lartin)

[Riltus]

Comments like this just support my thoughts that you're an off-duty GM that's assisting the players.

All conspiracy theories should be posted in the Political Discussions folder. However, in the interest of full disclosure, I will admit to having owned a 1977 Buick Regal. That, Mr. Bow, was my last official contact with any GM.

Mark

[Whirlin]

Well played sir.

[Demgar]

Targeted Spell Aiming (708) CS penalty formula:

100 - trunc[100 * (SA ranks/(target level * 2))] = CS penalty

Example 1

SA ranks: 5
Target level: 23

100 - trunc[(100 * (5/46))] = 90 CS penalty

Example 2

SA ranks: 140
Target level: 75

100 - trunc[(100 * (140/(150))] = 7 CS penalty


Note: Penalty caps at 100 CS with 0 SA ranks.

Mark

Will this ever turn into a bonus if underhunting or SA enhancives?

100 - trunc(100*(32/30)) = -6 penalty (bonus)

[Flap]

Will this ever turn into a bonus if underhunting or SA enhancives?

100 - trunc(100*(32/30)) = -6 penalty (bonus)

Negative. CS was the same against a kobold with 701 and aimed 708.

[Tgo01]

I was wondering; how difficult would it be to hunt with 3x in sorc spells? I see quite a few capped sorcs doing this so they can maximize their ensorcelling but it seems you would lose out on a lot of CS, DS and TD.

I came here because I could have sworn Whirlin broke down all of these stats from an optimized and 303 sorc ranks perspective but I don't see that post anywhere.

[Jeril]

You get a buttload of outside spells for DS/TD, you then use your 303 sorcerer ranks and 2x spell aim to implode anything and everything. Far as I know those with those builds mostly hunt in warcamps.


Edit: Forgot to add, you also want a few ranks of MoC as this lets your focused implosion stun other creatures in the room as well, giving them no real chance to attack you.

[Tgo01]

You get a buttload of outside spells for DS/TD, you then use your 303 sorcerer ranks and 2x spell aim to implode anything and everything. Far as I know those with those builds mostly hunt in warcamps.

Oh, ick. Two things I hate; implode and warcamps :/

[Kaldonis]

Maximizing Your potential: Channel & Shield

Channeling
Some spells allow for the use of CHANNEL verb instead of just CAST. Channel adds provides a phantom bonus to endrolls based on the stance and open hands. It also forces a hard 3s RT.

Does holding a runestaff count as one open hand?
No



I read this a few times, and from experience I'm nearly certain it should mean, "The hand you are holding your runestaff in is not considered open with regard to channeling," but without that experience and official posts confirming my experience, I would definitely read this like, "Holding only a runestaff in your right hand does not count as having one hand open." It could almost be changed to, "Does holding a runestaff count as two hands open? NO. It only counts as one hand open."

The guide write-up is very nice overall! But I should say using a runestaff+shield is a weird build, and most people would be wondering how just a runestaff works, and the present wording thus seems quite confusing for most audiences.

Alternatively, we are not agreeing on actual mechanics. Such posts as this would certainly support my perspective: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Runestaff_(saved_post)#Runestaff_Update_IV

[Whirlin]

I read this a few times, and from experience I'm nearly certain it should mean, "The hand you are holding your runestaff in is not considered open with regard to channeling," but without that experience and official posts confirming my experience, I would definitely read this like, "Holding only a runestaff in your right hand does not count as having one hand open." It could almost be changed to, "Does holding a runestaff count as two hands open? NO. It only counts as one hand open."

The guide write-up is very nice overall! But I should say using a runestaff+shield is a weird build, and most people would be wondering how just a runestaff works, and the present wording thus seems quite confusing for most audiences.

Alternatively, we are not agreeing on actual mechanics. Such posts as this would certainly support my perspective: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Runestaff_(saved_post)#Runestaff_Update_IV

Updated. I also recently found that Bind and Bind type effects, such as web/nets, only remove the Parry and Evade portions of your DS, but would leave block in tact... Which I subsequently referenced in the OPs

[Flap]

Thanks for the clarification on that, I was operating under the impression that runestaff = no open hands. Makes sense since they are THW's.

[Androidpk]

Couple of questions from a sorcerer noob. Do any sorcs wear brigandine armor? Does it matter which hand a rune staff is held in? How viable is balefire for a main attack spell?

[Jeril]

Couple of questions from a sorcerer noob. Do any sorcs wear brigandine armor? Does it matter which hand a rune staff is held in? How viable is balefire for a main attack spell?

I don't know of any who wear brig, most are either in fulls or doubles. Runestaves must be held in the right hand to get their benefits. Some people swear by it, but at 13 mana a pop it isn't exactly something you'd be using in low levels without a lot of wands to augment your meager mana supply. I'd only suggest bolt/balls spells if group hunting or wanting to help out during invasions.

[Astray]

I didn't when I fooled around on one. I stayed in robes most my life.

Not sure... I'm assuming it has to be in the right hand?

702 is more mana friendly and has the potential for obscene hidden damage along with crits and visible damage. I'm not sure on Balefire, since I never messed with it much.

[Fallen]

Couple of questions from a sorcerer noob. Do any sorcs wear brigandine armor? Does it matter which hand a rune staff is held in? How viable is balefire for a main attack spell?

I wore brig. I also often hunted with a paladin that could lower the hindrance a bit too. It's doable either way. It is a pretty large investment in armour use with help from armour use enhancives.

[Androidpk]

Ahh that reminds me, is it worth open handed channeling 702 in the lower levels? The last time I played a sorcerer it was still GS III and I got scolded by a GM :/

[Androidpk]

I wore brig. I also often hunted with a paladin that could lower the hindrance a bit too. It's doable either way. It is a pretty large investment in armour use with help from armour use enhancives.

Yeah, I figured with fluidity it wouldn't be so bad.

[Fallen]

Ahh that reminds me, is it worth open handed channeling 702 in the lower levels? The last time I played a sorcerer it was still GS III and I got scolded by a GM :/

I used it a lot through all my levels. I would set up the shots carefully though and script the process. At lower levels every shot counts, but now you have arcane blast. At middling levels you should have scroll infusion to keep your DS up high enough to cast safely.

Once you have the mana, a good combo is to get the stun with 702 then stance up and blast the creature with 705, which benefits from stance and channeling but not open hands.

[Androidpk]

I thought all channeled spells had the same mechanics?

[caelric]

When I played, Taaki wore brig, but he also primarily used a greatsword as his attack. So, spell use was less than a normal sorc, and thus, hindrance wasn't as big of a problem.

[Fallen]

I thought all channeled spells had the same mechanics?

No sir. 702 is benefited by open hands, Disintegrate is not. Just stance and channeling.

[Rheisia]

There are very real benefits to having heavier armor, but don't lose sight of the very real benefits of being a wholly dedicated pure sorcerer. The crowning achievement spells- 714, 740, 730, 735, etc. rely heavily on those secondary mental skills. And doubling in lores is really a necessity to get the most out of your spell circle. That's hard to do if you're investing a lot in physical skills.

[Malisai]

There are a couple of sorcerers that use up to ASG 10 I think. I only really know of one sorcerer who went higher than that and they are a mutant build. Mal is in fulls, because i hate spell failure. I tried doubles for a bit and didnt like the spell failure. However if I ever got my hands on a good set of doubles, id switch in a second padding and other stuff would more than make up for the spell failure.

however at the end of the day, if you are 2x in spells, you can pretty much build however you want to. I didnt even go over 1x in sorcerer spells until 95 or so. There is nothing pre cap that requires more than 1x in sorcerer spells, or 1x PF, or lores, or pretty much anything else. I do like having spell aim for aimed 708 though. Build to how you want, have fun with it, the best thing about GS4 is you can always fixskills or migrate.

[Rheisia]

Yeah the spell hindrance training requirements are very clearly set up to discourage anyone from ever going over studded leather (even that requires 50 ranks to train off the hindrance)

I also tend to agree with Malisai about going beyond 1x in sorcery spells- it's nice but not necessary. The only time when you would REALLY feel the difference is the incredibly uncomfortable level 20-30 range (or whenever you get 425). Warding becomes incredibly tough around then. The other benefit of 2x spell aim, btw, is that you can used focused maelstrom at that point- which bypasses warding. That's how a lot of sorcerers get through that hump.

I do stand by 2x lores, but you don't need that until after 30. Just be sure to get a little necro so you can use 701 to heal.

[Soulance]

So, aim for Demonology mostly at younger ages then? Do you guys run around with demons usually? I never see them. Is that because they aren't allowed in towns?

[Allereli]

Do you guys run around with demons usually?

yes.

[Jeril]

I started off doing demonology, but I never really used it and switched over to necromacy. And correct, demons aren't allowed in most of the towns. Icemule allows them and so does Teras(but you need a permit here).

[Silvean]

Using the philosophy of "mathing out Gemstone" from the OP, I don't think doubling in lores is advisable before a character is double cap.

[Allereli]

Using the philosophy of "mathing out Gemstone" from the OP, I don't think doubling in lores is advisable before a character is double cap.

Between demon, necro and summoning lores I did, it was fine.

[Silvean]

Between demon, necro and summoning lores I did, it was fine.

I'm sure it was fine. From the OP: "Gemstone is an amazingly easy game. Even the weakest hunters can be successful, take a look at Dayko. People don't need to use this guide or follow these training plan if they believe that doing their own thing will be sufficient."

At cap, each rank of sorcerer lore between 1x and 2x takes 24 PTPs. Those 2400 PTPs could buy 37 spell ranks or 85 ranks of CM.

[Allereli]

I'm sure it was fine. From the OP: "Gemstone is an amazingly easy game. Even the weakest hunters can be successful, take a look at Dayko. People don't need to use this guide or follow these training plan if they believe that doing their own thing will be sufficient."

At cap, each rank of sorcerer lore between 1x and 2x takes 24 PTPs. Those 2400 PTPs could buy 37 spell ranks or 85 ranks of CM.

you're basing your response on the guide? why? use your own thoughts and let Whirlin base his responses on the guide. My response is based off of my own experience leveling my sorcerer from 0-double cap, not a purchase.

[Silvean]

My own thought is that doubling lore is primarily a RP decision because the benefits are almost mechanically useless. I think sorcerers need a lore review. 2400 PTPs is too much for me to spend on RP training and it's better to get max CS and max trainable maneuver defense before considering it.

I nearly feel the same way about 1x in lore but being at least 1x in demon lore is an important enough RP decision for me that it justifies the smaller cost.

[Allereli]

My own thought is that doubling lore is primarily a RP decision because the benefits are almost mechanically useless. I think sorcerers need a lore review. 2400 PTPs is too much for me to spend on RP training and it's better to get max CS and max trainable maneuver defense before considering it.

I nearly feel the same way about 1x in lore but being at least 1x in demon lore is an important enough RP decision for me that it justifies the smaller cost.

that's more like it.

Silvean leaves boxes on the ground. I don't :) 711 is OP with appropriate necro lore, which I started using in the rift.

[Androidpk]

I don't recall seeing this in the guide - what is the general training path in regards to spells. Specifically in regards to both of the minor circles.

[Jeril]

I don't recall seeing this in the guide - what is the general training path in regards to spells. Specifically in regards to both of the minor circles.

It tends to vary quite a bit. About the only common thing you see is get 425 by 25, 430 by 30, and keep sorcerer spells at level. A lot of people push the minor spells to get them all early to include 140, others have followed a slower progression being only 2x in spells, or they place a higher focus on over training sorcerer spell ranks.

[caelric]

WRT to minor circles, you generally see higher returns offensively from the 400s (425 offensive and 430 defensive) and higher defensive returns from the 100s (102 and 120). Since it generally agreed on in GS, at least, that the best defense is a good offense, most sorcs go with more 400s than 100s.

There are, of course, exceptions to this, as with everything in GS.

[Fallen]

It tends to vary quite a bit. About the only common thing you see is get 425 by 25, 430 by 30, and keep sorcerer spells at level. A lot of people push the minor spells to get them all early to include 140, others have followed a slower progression being only 2x in spells, or they place a higher focus on over training sorcerer spell ranks.

That sounds right to me. I think I tripled a few times to stay at 1x sorcerer, pick up 101-103, and stay 1x at 400 up to 430, went back to pick up 130, then bounced back and forth between the 400's until 475(ish, whatever the cap from 425 was) and going up to 140.

[Soulance]

I enjoyed hunting with 702 so I beefed up Sorc ranks as much as I could and pretty much just 1x in the other stuff. Like Fallen above there, I went up to 103 but only after going for 425 and 430 because 401, 406, and 414 are nice along the way as well. Really, 102 is all you need for a long time (isn't it like 40 DS?), but it can't hurt to go 1 more and get 103. I was just lucky to be able to buff up all the time too so maybe it won't work as well.

[Jeril]

102 is 20 DS +1 for every 2 ranks beyond it. I picked up 104 because I wanted 103 and at 104 you get another CS point and by 10 or so I had 107, another CS point gained there so not like one is that far off from max CS. Depending on what you are hunting you don't need more then your own spells, especially if you are good about upgrading your gear when you can. From what I know by cap a lot of sorcerers have 40 ranks MnS, 60 ranks MnE, and 100-121 ranks in sorcerer spells.

[Malisai]

I went 2.5x in spells, to be able to pick up 425 and 430 quickly and still have some for the 100s.

As to which lore you should get...While leveling, I think that demon lore is best. Between phasing boxes with 704, getting the best chance for retribution with 712 before whatever level that would happen at naturally, summoning and summoning a demon to store mana for hunting, nothing in the necro lore can touch it. To me the only reason i would train necro is 711, which at leveling levels, means you wont use it often. Once you hit around cappish, all of a sudden 711 becomes one of your best spells and the spell alone is worth training necro lores for at that point.

However, at the end of the day do the following: 2x in spells, with at least 1x in sorcerer spells. Then basically do pretty much whatever you want. There is nothing you must have to cap other than 1x in sorcerer spells. Get some 4x gear and pick what skills you like. Dont like it, migrate or fix skills. Thats the best part now-a-days, you dont destroy your character by making a single mistake or by not having 0-100 exactly planned out.

Go forth, have fun, try different things, if you want to RP something, then just go ahead and do it.

[Androidpk]

I want to hunt with balefire, I know that much.