McDonald's franchise sued for paying with pre-paid debit cards

[Tenlaar]

A former McDonald's worker in Pennsylvania is suing a franchiser owner saying she was required to receive her wages through a debit card that charged fees, resulting in some hourly employees receiving less than minimum wage.

Natalie Gunshannon, a single mother, 27, said she and other workers were paid through a JPMorgan Chase Payroll Card, which has a $1.50 fee for ATM withdrawals, a $10 inactivity fee after 90 days, and a 75 cent online payment fee per transaction and other fees.

Gunshannon, who filed a lawsuit in the Luzerne County Court of Common Pleas, is hoping to have her case certified as a class action on behalf of the other employees who were paid with the Payroll card.

"It's a violation of the law," said Gunshannon's attorney, Michael Cefalo. "They're entitled to a choice to be paid in cash or check. Fees connected to this debit card which employees have to pay to get their wages which is unfair."

Gunshannon said she asked her employer if she could receive her wages through direct deposit at her credit union, which she said did not accept payments through the payroll card. She is suing under the Pennsylvania Wage Payment and Collection Act for unjust enrichment.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/mcdonalds-worker-sues-franchise-paying-wages-debit-card/story?id=19420181#.UcDV45xpCvQ

I'm curious how some of you law-minded people and business owning/running people feel about this apparently growing trend. A few months ago my girlfriend brought home the info for one of these cards (no, she doesn't work at McDonald's) and said she was told she now had the option of using it or getting direct deposit. I took one look at the pamphlet and said "Looks like you're getting direct deposit." It actually made me angry that they were even trying to get people to use it when I looked at the fees. She doesn't like to keep cash on her and would have ended up paying a fee 3-4 times a day on most days.

It would have been bad for her, I can't even imagine how it would effect somebody making minimum wage and trying to support a family.

[Keller]

Free market herp derp

[Tenlaar]

Yes, the free market totally allows employers to effectively pay their employees less than minimum wage.

[Candor]

I'm all for free market enterprise, but this practice is against the law.

[Latrinsorm]

Keep your laws off my market.

[Parkbandit]

I'm curious how some of you law-minded people and business owning/running people feel about this apparently growing trend. A few months ago my girlfriend brought home the info for one of these cards (no, she doesn't work at McDonald's) and said she was told she now had the option of using it or getting direct deposit. I took one look at the pamphlet and said "Looks like you're getting direct deposit." It actually made me angry that they were even trying to get people to use it when I looked at the fees. She doesn't like to keep cash on her and would have ended up paying a fee 3-4 times a day on most days.

It would have been bad for her, I can't even imagine how it would effect somebody making minimum wage and trying to support a family.

If there were no fees, what would your feelings be?

If you use it at a Chase bank, are there any ATM fees?

I know back when I managed a hotel, some employees would complain that their bank charges them a fee to cash their payroll check.

[tyrant-201]

The issue at heart is whether they give the employees the option to take another method of payment, and whether the employees agreed to this when they took the job.

[Back]

It sounds like banks offer this as an alternative for people who cash their checks at check cashing places which usually take 10%. It could work out to be cheaper for people to use the cards with the fees. But, not everyone cashes their checks at check cashing places. I can see these people wanting to refuse this form of payment.

For the employer I wonder how much of a savings it is to pass out debit cards rather than pass out paper checks? Unless the payroll company and bank they use severely limit the fees for processing payroll knowing they will collect that much or more from the fees incurred by the employees using them.

[DoctorUnne]

Back hit the nail on the head. These kinds of trends remind me once again why Visa and MasterCard are the best businesses in the universe.

[Tenlaar]

As I understand it, employers are offered "incentives" for using the cards. Meaning in the end, the employer saves a little money and the employee makes less than minimum wage.

The only way that I would find it acceptable was if their were both no fees at all, period, ever for using the card AND you were able to walk in your bank and move that money into your bank account just like depositing a check. If a person who uses the card has $1 less to spend than a person making the same amount and getting direct deposit, it is not acceptable. If you cannot put your money that you earned from working your job into the bank without a single cent being taken out of it, it is not acceptable.

I have never heard of somebody with a bank account being charged by that bank to cash their paycheck.

[Tgo01]

Banks need to eat too!

[tyrant-201]

Banks need to eat too!

It's how they get too big to fail, of course.

[thefarmer]

Get your paycheck deposited into your bank account.

Or..

Get your paycheck deposited on a card.
Go to the approved ATM.
Withdraw all your paycheck without any fees (Again, because it's an approved ATM).
Do whatever with your money.


I don't see the issue here. As long as you're not treating that paycheck card as a debit card and using it everywhere to buy stuff, fees shouldn't be an issue. I've had this done in companies I've worked for and never had anyone complain about fees.

[diethx]

Get your paycheck deposited into your bank account.

Or..

Get your paycheck deposited on a card.
Go to the approved ATM.
Withdraw all your paycheck without any fees (Again, because it's an approved ATM).
Do whatever with your money.


I don't see the issue here. As long as you're not treating that paycheck card as a debit card and using it everywhere to buy stuff, fees shouldn't be an issue. I've had this done in companies I've worked for and never had anyone complain about fees.

^^

[Parkbandit]

As I understand it, employers are offered "incentives" for using the cards. Meaning in the end, the employer saves a little money and the employee makes less than minimum wage.

The only way that I would find it acceptable was if their were both no fees at all, period, ever for using the card AND you were able to walk in your bank and move that money into your bank account just like depositing a check. If a person who uses the card has $1 less to spend than a person making the same amount and getting direct deposit, it is not acceptable. If you cannot put your money that you earned from working your job into the bank without a single cent being taken out of it, it is not acceptable.

I have never heard of somebody with a bank account being charged by that bank to cash their paycheck.

There are many people who don't have bank accounts... which is why places like Amscot, Cash Express, etc.. exist and thrive.

I imagine this is a case of only knowing half the story... the McDonalds probably offers a number of pay options.. Natalie chose the card... she no longer works at that McDonalds and suddenly has an ax to grind.

[Parkbandit]

Get your paycheck deposited into your bank account.

Or..

Get your paycheck deposited on a card.
Go to the approved ATM.
Withdraw all your paycheck without any fees (Again, because it's an approved ATM).
Do whatever with your money.


I don't see the issue here. As long as you're not treating that paycheck card as a debit card and using it everywhere to buy stuff, fees shouldn't be an issue. I've had this done in companies I've worked for and never had anyone complain about fees.

What about FORMER employees???

[thefarmer]

What about FORMER employees???

No paycheck! No fees!

[Tenlaar]

There are no approved ATMs with these cards. Or at least the one that my girlfriend was offered. You get money out of ANY ATM, you are charged. You use the card ANYWHERE, for ANYTHING, you are charged. Period. No way to skirt it. You use it, you pay a fee. And even if there is, these things are mailed out from who knows where. What if there is no bank of that company within 40 miles of you?

And according to the article, her not being able to get paid in any way besides the card was why she quit. Managers were offered direct deposit, grunt workers were not. They were offered the card or no paycheck. I don't have a problem with somebody having the choice to get the card. The choice is the thing. And I can very easily see that choice being taken away by companies to lower their costs a little unless they are kept from doing so. Would you be ok if your boss came to you and said "Hey, we're going to start paying you a few bucks less just so we can save a few dollars." Would that be ok with you? Because that is what's happening with these cards.

[diethx]

I find it difficult to believe that a Chase debit card can't be used at a Chase bank without fees. Even if it's a paycard. Sorry.

[diethx]

My company pays non-management employees with paycards. I have never heard a single complaint from any of my stores.

[Tenlaar]

I can't remember which company it was that handled the cards my girlfriend was offered, but I read the pamphlet very closely. There was no approved ATM.

Now saying that you can use a Chase atm, tell me what happens if the nearest Chase bank is 47 miles away from where you live and work. Just sucks for you and you make less than minimum wage now?

[Tenlaar]

My company pays non-management employees with paycards. I have never heard a single complaint from any of my stores.

A bunch of people at her work took the cards too. People are fucking idiots. Those people just make slightly less now, congrats for them.

[diethx]

You are really angry about this, heh. I'm really glad though that you just made a blanket judgement on all my company's non-management employees.

Well, there's always the option of not taking that job if the pay ends up being less than minimum wage, for whatever reason.

[thefarmer]

I can't remember which company it was that handled the cards my girlfriend was offered, but I read the pamphlet very closely. There was no approved ATM.

Now saying that you can use a Chase atm, tell me what happens if the nearest Chase bank is 47 miles away from where you live and work. Just sucks for you and you make less than minimum wage now?


So how much are you talking here? How little did your girlfriend make that made you so angry about what, $5 bucks?

[Tenlaar]

There is also the option of not allowing companies to effectively pay their employees less than minimum wage by requiring them to use these cards. It should be stopped now.

And you're damned right it makes me mad. I live just outside Richmond, Va. Do you know where the closest Chase bank or ATM is to me? 157 miles away. So if this was my only offered method of payment it just sucks for me and I get to pay a fee on my paycheck, right?

[diethx]

How do you know that McDonalds wouldn't offer you a paycard for a bank in your area?

[Tenlaar]

So how much are you talking here? How little did your girlfriend make that made you so angry about what, $5 bucks?

It has nothing to do with the amount of money. It has to do with corporations reaching just a little bit deeper into the pockets of the people in the country who already make the least and fishing around for more loose change.

[Tgo01]

The solution is obvious, McDonald's employees should be paid in McDonald's gift cards. Those practically never expire and there are no fees associated for using them!

[diethx]

The solution is obvious, McDonald's employees should be paid in McDonald's gift cards. Those practically never expire and there are no fees associated for using them!

Clearly, because non-management fast food employees are stupid. Duh.

[Tenlaar]

How do you know that McDonalds wouldn't offer you a paycard for a bank in your area?

Ok. Do you know where the nearest Chase bank or ATM is to Dallas Township, PA where the woman who is suing lives? 63 miles.

[Back]

The solution is obvious, McDonald's employees should be paid in McDonald's gift cards. Those practically never expire and there are no fees associated for using them!

We've actually given out $50 gift cards to our restaurant for Christmas gifts in the past. Employees already get 50% off most things so its like $100. They can use them on anything, food or liquor, or give them as gifts to their friends or relatives. I thought it was kinda cheesy at first but they really appreciate them.

[diethx]

Do you know if she asked for a paycard for a bank in her area?

[Parkbandit]

There is also the option of not allowing companies to effectively pay their employees less than minimum wage by requiring them to use these cards. It should be stopped now.

And you're damned right it makes me mad. I live just outside Richmond, Va. Do you know where the closest Chase bank or ATM is to me? 157 miles away. So if this was my only offered method of payment it just sucks for me and I get to pay a fee on my paycheck, right?

So, if you were paid $10 an hour on the card and the fees would still keep your pay above minimum wage, you would have no problem with this program?

And it's just when you use an ATM right? To pay cash?

How often do people pay things in cash nowadays?

[thefarmer]

It has nothing to do with the amount of money. It has to do with corporations reaching just a little bit deeper into the pockets of the people in the country who already make the least and fishing around for more loose change.

You keep screaming about making less than minimum wage.

So.. what was this fee that would have made your GF make less than minimum wage?

[Tenlaar]

My girlfriend would not have. If you take a minimum wage employee, meaning they can not legally be paid any less, and pay them in a manner which requires them to pay a fee to access that pay, that employee is now receiving less than minimum wage from their paycheck.

And again, the fee is for ANYTHING you do with the card. If you take money off of it, you pay. If you use it, you pay. If you DON'T use it, you pay.

[thefarmer]

So use it once to take all your money out.

It's not rocket science.

edit: Now tell me how much these fees were again?

[Latrinsorm]

Do you know if she asked for a paycard for a bank in her area?Shouldn't the default be that paycard that won't give you fees if you use it within 63 miles of your place of employment? That seems like a pretty weak excuse.
So, if you were paid $10 an hour on the card and the fees would still keep your pay above minimum wage, you would have no problem with this program?You are confusing the point about being below minimum wage with the general objection.

Of course, you are doing this intentionally, so...

[diethx]

Hmm. I wonder how many actual restaurants this franchisee owns? One? More than one? If it's just the one restaurant..well, it's not exactly like a big corporation saving a little by paying the employees less. More like small business owners saving a little by offering a cheaper method of payment.

[Tgo01]

We've actually given out $50 gift cards to our restaurant for Christmas gifts in the past. Employees already get 50% off most things so its like $100.

I don't think it works like that.

[tyrant-201]

So use it once to take all your money out.

It's not rocket science.

edit: Now tell me how much these fees were again?

We're talking about fast food employees here.

[Parkbandit]

My girlfriend would not have. If you take a minimum wage employee, meaning they can not legally be paid any less, and pay them in a manner which requires them to pay a fee to access that pay, that employee is now receiving less than minimum wage from their paycheck.

And again, the fee is for ANYTHING you do with the card. If you take money off of it, you pay. If you use it, you pay. If you DON'T use it, you pay.

What type of Visa/Mastercard charges you to use it like a credit card?

I'd be interested in finding out what specific card program you are talking about.

[Parkbandit]

I don't think it works like that.

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/400x/22482503.jpg

[Tgo01]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Parkbandit again.

Curses!

[Thondalar]

Hmm. I wonder how many actual restaurants this franchisee owns? One? More than one? If it's just the one restaurant..well, it's not exactly like a big corporation saving a little by paying the employees less. More like small business owners saving a little by offering a cheaper method of payment.

My restaurant has also moved to a "paperless" payroll. If you aren't able to have direct deposit, you get your pay on a card. I've had direct deposit for as long as it's been a thing that someone can have, so I'm not sure if there are fees or whatnot associated with our card.

The company has roughly three thousand employees being paid in this manner, at present.

[Tenlaar]

I'd be interested in finding out what specific card program you are talking about.

I wish I could tell you. It was a few months ago and it went in the trash quite forcefully.


My restaurant has also moved to a "paperless" payroll. If you aren't able to have direct deposit, you get your pay on a card. I've had direct deposit for as long as it's been a thing that someone can have, so I'm not sure if there are fees or whatnot associated with our card.

The company has roughly three thousand employees being paid in this manner, at present.

But this only affects a few people working at that McDonald's! I am willing to bet that in a few years there will be no paper option for the vast majority of Americans. If something isn't done many, like this woman, could not even be offered direct deposit. I hate to do the whole slippery slope thing, but when have corporations (and especially banks) been more concerned about people than their profits? A $1.50 fee becomes a $3 fee becomes a flat percentage fee becomes a...

[Thondalar]

I hate to do the whole slippery slope thing, but when have corporations (and especially banks) been more concerned about people than their profits? A $1.50 fee becomes a $3 fee becomes a flat percentage fee becomes a...

Why should they have to be more concerned with people than profits? It's a corporation, not a charity.

They care about staying in business. It's kind of what they're there for.


edit: oh, and the whole...you know...driving our national economy, employing most of our population, that sort of thing

[Tenlaar]

You don't see a problem with a group of business who have been shown to be more than willing to engage in predatory practices aimed at the poor being put in charge of handling this system which will be targeted at the poor and just begs to be...predatorized?

[diethx]

But this only affects a few people working at that McDonald's! I am willing to bet that in a few years there will be no paper option for the vast majority of Americans. If something isn't done many, like this woman, could not even be offered direct deposit. I hate to do the whole slippery slope thing, but when have corporations (and especially banks) been more concerned about people than their profits? A $1.50 fee becomes a $3 fee becomes a flat percentage fee becomes a...

I'm going to chalk that dumb sarcastic statement up to your immense amount of rage here, but you do realize that no one actually said that, right? Society as a whole is moving towards a more paperless environment, and this isn't a bad thing. Also, I have no idea how you took the leap from no paper options to people not being offered direct deposit, but I do know that it doesn't make any sense at all. Will direct deposit one day be left behind in favor of another, more efficient method of payment? Yeah, probably, but that isn't today, and that isn't happening with these paycards on any sort of massive scale. So chill the fuck out, before you stroke out over something completely ridiculous.

[Back]

Going from paper to plastic seems like a step backwards. How about payment in the form of small uranium enriched pellets of lead that have to be weighed on a scale for a modest fee by the scale owner of course.

[Warriorbird]

You don't see a problem with a group of business who have been shown to be more than willing to engage in predatory practices aimed at the poor being put in charge of handling this system which will be targeted at the poor and just begs to be...predatorized?

He resents the poor.

[Tolwynn]

She doesn't like to keep cash on her and would have ended up paying a fee 3-4 times a day on most days.

Since she doesn't like to keep cash on her, and doesn't have the company-issued debit card, how is she paying for things 3-4 times a day now? Wouldn't it have been possible to dump the card once per paycheck and put the funds into whatever that payment method is?

[Tenlaar]

I'm going to chalk that dumb sarcastic statement up to your immense amount of rage here, but you do realize that no one actually said that, right?

Hmm. I wonder how many actual restaurants this franchisee owns? One? More than one? If it's just the one restaurant..well, it's not exactly like a big corporation saving a little by paying the employees less. More like small business owners saving a little by offering a cheaper method of payment.

It was an exaggeration, yes. But the fact that you made that comment after you yourself said your company paid employees from multiple stores with cards just makes it even more amusing. Thondalar also stated that his company uses this method and has 3,000 employees. They don't sound like small businesses to me.


Society as a whole is moving towards a more paperless environment, and this isn't a bad thing. Also, I have no idea how you took the leap from no paper options to people not being offered direct deposit, but I do know that it doesn't make any sense at all.

Maybe I was able to make it over that logical chasm because this thread is discussing a lawsuit that is about exactly that, somebody who was offered this card and only this card as a payment option. If a company is offered incentives to use these cards for their payroll and no incentive for offering direct deposit, which way do you think companies will go? If it is decided that it is legal to only offer an employee payment through these cards, do you really not think that more companies will do it?

[Tenlaar]

Since she doesn't like to keep cash on her, and doesn't have the company-issued debit card, how is she paying for things 3-4 times a day now?

She got direct deposit. Unlike the woman in this lawsuit, she was offered that option at the time. If it is decided that companies can pay employees with only the cards, that will probably change.

[Back]

If it is decided that it is legal to only offer an employee payment through these cards, do you really not think that more companies will do it?

The last thing I want to do is fuck my employees. They are worth every penny spent when they are happy. A happy employee is a good employee.

I'll pay the modest paper payroll fee to make sure they are paid. I'll even give advances, cash their checks for them for zero fee, and deliver them cash in an envelope with their name on it.

[Tenlaar]

Surely you are aware by now that nobody believes you own or run a restaurant.

[tyrant-201]

Surely you are aware by now that nobody believes you own or run a restaurant.

This is the internet. We can be whoever we want, ooookay!?

[Jarvan]

Get your paycheck deposited into your bank account.

Or..

Get your paycheck deposited on a card.
Go to the approved ATM.
Withdraw all your paycheck without any fees (Again, because it's an approved ATM).
Do whatever with your money.


I don't see the issue here. As long as you're not treating that paycheck card as a debit card and using it everywhere to buy stuff, fees shouldn't be an issue. I've had this done in companies I've worked for and never had anyone complain about fees.

More importantly, why would you not want direct deposit if you have a bank account? I would think these cards are for those that do not have a checking account, and would then end up paying to get a check cashed.

I've worked for companies that required Direct deposit. If you didn't have an account, they required you to get a card to put it on. Which, frankly, there are a number of decent prepaid cards out there that don't charge ATM fees themselves. They may charge a monthly fee, but then again, so do most banks for checking accounts these days.

[Parkbandit]

Surely you are aware by now that nobody believes you own or run a restaurant.

WHAT? That's crazy talk!

[Parkbandit]

I wish I could tell you. It was a few months ago and it went in the trash quite forcefully.



But this only affects a few people working at that McDonald's! I am willing to bet that in a few years there will be no paper option for the vast majority of Americans. If something isn't done many, like this woman, could not even be offered direct deposit. I hate to do the whole slippery slope thing, but when have corporations (and especially banks) been more concerned about people than their profits? A $1.50 fee becomes a $3 fee becomes a flat percentage fee becomes a...

Direct deposit is the simplest and most cost effective way to pay an employee.... if that was an option for this employee, the evil, greedy corporation would have jumped on it.

Unless you've taken a sharp left turn to Backlashville and believe the greedy corporations will pay extra for these paycards JUST so the banks can gouge the employees further...

[Showal]

Thondalar and tenlaar have names that are too similar so I am pretending it is the same person having an argument with themselves and I love it

[AnticorRifling]

I think we're skipping over an important part of this whole situation. If the company is using these cards then they don't have checks sitting out there waiting to be cashed this means reconciliation is much more streamlined so it requires less accounting staff. And no one likes accountants.

[Gsgeek]

And no one likes accountants.

Boooo . I hope you get audited!!

[AnticorRifling]

I've built a fort made out of T charts, it is fortified with Journal Entries and I've drawn up the GL draw bridge. I am safe.

[diethx]

It was an exaggeration, yes. But the fact that you made that comment after you yourself said your company paid employees from multiple stores with cards just makes it even more amusing. Thondalar also stated that his company uses this method and has 3,000 employees. They don't sound like small businesses to me.



Maybe I was able to make it over that logical chasm because this thread is discussing a lawsuit that is about exactly that, somebody who was offered this card and only this card as a payment option. If a company is offered incentives to use these cards for their payroll and no incentive for offering direct deposit, which way do you think companies will go? If it is decided that it is legal to only offer an employee payment through these cards, do you really not think that more companies will do it?

Except, you dense motherfucker, I never said that paycards were only available to small businesses. I was merely commenting on the company involved in this lawsuit. The franchisee that you claim, and this employee claims, did not offer her direct deposit. I would be much more highly inclined to believe a small company wouldn't offer direct deposit, as opposed to a larger one.

My company also offers direct deposit. Thondalar's company also offers direct deposit. If you're going to rage, at least keep straight what you're raging about.


I think we're skipping over an important part of this whole situation. If the company is using these cards then they don't have checks sitting out there waiting to be cashed this means reconciliation is much more streamlined so it requires less accounting staff. And no one likes accountants.

hiss

[diethx]

I've built a fort made out of T charts, it is fortified with Journal Entries and I've drawn up the GL draw bridge. I am safe.

They're called T accounts, not T charts. Also, I am going to blast right through your ledger bridge. You are fucked. Better cover your assets.

[Showal]

I think we're skipping over an important part of this whole situation. If the company is using these cards then they don't have checks sitting out there waiting to be cashed this means reconciliation is much more streamlined so it requires less accounting staff. And no one likes accountants.
More importantly, why hasn't anyone considered the environmental consequences? One trillion people working at McDonald's is a lot of plastic!!!!! I arrive at the number one trillion because that's how many people I honestly believe work for McDonalds. When will people get paid in trident layers?

[AnticorRifling]

They're called T accounts, not T charts. Also, I am going to blast right through your ledger bridge. You are fucked. Better cover your assets.

My bridge is up....blasting through it still means getting across the moat of open A/R infested with unapplied cash. You stand zero chances.

[diethx]

Once your bridge is blasted, you have nothing covering your archway of past-due payables, so it's free for me to pass right through and expense you until your accounts are completely drained. Moat of A/R? Please. No match for my boat forged from perfectly reconciled cash and credit cards.

[AnticorRifling]

Credit Cards do not work here, I sit on a bedrock of PCI faults and violations.

[diethx]

Sorry, my boat has been fortified with top-notch BAMS support. Good luck stopping this cunt from passing right through.

[AnticorRifling]

Notice how BAMS is PCI accredited meaning they look to PCI for direction? They will not tread here. NONE SHALL PASS!

[diethx]

This is like accountant porn.

I just came all over my district-wide PNL.

[Keller]

Yes, the free market totally allows employers to effectively pay their employees less than minimum wage.

That is not true.

Employers cannot pay their employees less than minimum wage in a free market because minimum wage doesn't exist in a free market.

[Keller]

I'm all for free market enterprise, but this practice is against the law.


Keep your laws off my market.

YUP!

[Keller]

I think we're skipping over an important part of this whole situation. If the company is using these cards then they don't have checks sitting out there waiting to be cashed this means reconciliation is much more streamlined so it requires less accounting staff. And no one likes accountants.

PREACH!

[Sean]

Notice how BAMS is PCI accredited meaning they look to PCI for direction? They will not tread here. NONE SHALL PASS!

Careful or she'll just leave some gross roast beef outside your fort and stink you out.

[diethx]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Back]

Surely you are aware by now that nobody believes you own or run a restaurant.

I'm really really really broken up about this. Meaniehead. Anticor can you ban him please?


Direct deposit is the simplest and most cost effective way to pay an employee.... if that was an option for this employee, the evil, greedy corporation would have jumped on it.

Unless you've taken a sharp left turn to Backlashville and believe the greedy corporations will pay extra for these paycards JUST so the banks can gouge the employees further...

Actually, at least with my payroll company, direct deposit is an additional fee added to the total processing. You would think it would eliminate checks but they print out vouchers for each employee showing their pay, totals, taxes, etc. so you still have to pay for all that. Then they charge you for direct deposit.

Keep clinging to the fantasy world belief that the banks are your best friends. You are exactly the kind of consumer they are bleeding dry over your entire lifetime so the upper echelon can phone it in from their yachts in the Maldives.

[Parkbandit]

Actually, at least with my payroll company, direct deposit is an additional fee added to the total processing. You would think it would eliminate checks but they print out vouchers for each employee showing their pay, totals, taxes, etc. so you still have to pay for all that. Then they charge you for direct deposit.

For me, direct deposit is the cheapest. I'm able to print vouchers on regular copy paper and the additional fee is including direct deposit, so it's less than the actual cost of checks and toner.


Keep clinging to the fantasy world belief that the banks are your best friends. You are exactly the kind of consumer they are bleeding dry over your entire lifetime so the upper echelon can phone it in from their yachts in the Maldives.

No one is claiming that banks are their best friends. They are a business, like every other. They aren't interested in being your best friend.. they are interested in making money.

And I'm not sure how they are bleeding me dry.. since the only time I pay any bank fees is when I have messed something up.

[crb]

I'm curious how some of you law-minded people and business owning/running people feel about this apparently growing trend. A few months ago my girlfriend brought home the info for one of these cards (no, she doesn't work at McDonald's) and said she was told she now had the option of using it or getting direct deposit. I took one look at the pamphlet and said "Looks like you're getting direct deposit." It actually made me angry that they were even trying to get people to use it when I looked at the fees. She doesn't like to keep cash on her and would have ended up paying a fee 3-4 times a day on most days.

It would have been bad for her, I can't even imagine how it would effect somebody making minimum wage and trying to support a family.

Employment is a voluntary legal relationship, a business owner should have the freedom to set their own rules, and an employee should have the freedom to abide by those rules or seek other employment. In a perfect world this is a non issue.

We live in an imperfect world though, and technically yes, I could see this violating the minimum wage law. I may not agree with the minimum wage, or any other form of artificial price fixing, but it does exist, it is the law, and this does break the law.

That being said, don't assume the business is being greedy, evil, or getting a kickback from JPMorgan or something. Many people do not have checking accounts, cashing checks when you don't have accounts often incurs fees. With Dodd Frank limiting other bank funding methods the days of free checking are largely over as well, people living paycheck to paycheck who do not maintain large balances are being hit by fees too. I'm sure I'm not the other one that recently had the terms of my checking account changed, the law of unintended consequences. So many people may in fact prefer this method.

[RichardCranium]

We've actually given out $50 gift cards to our restaurant for Christmas gifts in the past. Employees already get 50% off most things so its like $100. They can use them on anything, food or liquor, or give them as gifts to their friends or relatives. I thought it was kinda cheesy at first but they really appreciate them.

You don't have to pay taxes on employee bonuses given in gift card form. Your restaurant is evil.

[Suppressed Poet]

In my industry, they are called pay cards. The reality is, paper checks are costly and payment cards are a good alternative to industries with workers deemed "the unbanked" that can't accept direct deposits. They don't have to pay a dime to get their money. Every pay card has a way to take that card into a bank and get cash without paying a fee. The fee comes for the use of a prepaid debit card. They have that option and are paying for the conveinence and security of using a card. The whole suit is frivolous and bs in my opinion.

[Suppressed Poet]

Even my state's unemployment office uses pay cards. It is more cost effective and simply works better in a high turn over enviornment. If a worker doesn't like it, just take that card up to the bank and withdraw it for cash with the teller - fee free. Just the same as a check. And guess what? - if you don't have a bank account and are getting a paper check...same thing. You either take the check to that bank or you are going to pay a fee with any other FI or check cashing place to get your money.

[Latrinsorm]

Why should they have to be more concerned with people than profits? It's a corporation, not a charity.

They care about staying in business. It's kind of what they're there for.


edit: oh, and the whole...you know...driving our national economy, employing most of our population, that sort of thingIf they're going to die, they'd better do it and decrease the surplus population!

Dude, this matter was settled 200 years ago. Profit for the sake of profit isn't for the greater good, it's for you being an asshole whose bedsheets are pawned while they're (implausibly) still warm.
open A/R infested withYou deserve to get infested, you open Anticor Rifling.
Every pay card has a way to take that card into a bank and get cash without paying a fee.If the bank is 300 miles away, do you count the cost of time and gas as a fee? If no (or yes), how far away is the bank allowed to be?

[AnticorRifling]

Employment is a voluntary legal relationship, a business owner should have the freedom to set their own rules, and an employee should have the freedom to abide by those rules or seek other employment. In a perfect world this is a non issue.

We live in an imperfect world though, and technically yes, I could see this violating the minimum wage law. I may not agree with the minimum wage, or any other form of artificial price fixing, but it does exist, it is the law, and this does break the law.

That being said, don't assume the business is being greedy, evil, or getting a kickback from JPMorgan or something. Many people do not have checking accounts, cashing checks when you don't have accounts often incurs fees. With Dodd Frank limiting other bank funding methods the days of free checking are largely over as well, people living paycheck to paycheck who do not maintain large balances are being hit by fees too. I'm sure I'm not the other one that recently had the terms of my checking account changed, the law of unintended consequences. So many people may in fact prefer this method.

100% agree.

[Tenlaar]

You mofo's went all whackadoo. Now...



That being said, don't assume the business is being greedy, evil, or getting a kickback from JPMorgan or something. Many people do not have checking accounts, cashing checks when you don't have accounts often incurs fees. With Dodd Frank limiting other bank funding methods the days of free checking are largely over as well, people living paycheck to paycheck who do not maintain large balances are being hit by fees too. I'm sure I'm not the other one that recently had the terms of my checking account changed, the law of unintended consequences. So many people may in fact prefer this method.

There is no assumption about it. Companies ARE getting a kickback from JPMorgan. Oh, excuse me, they are offered incentives. I have stated very clearly that I am fine with this being an option. That is the word: option. As long as a paper check, or direct deposit, even cash is offered, it's fine. That is not my concern.

My concern is very simple. If it is found to be legal to offer no other form of payment it will simply become another poor tax. If a company has the choice between a small fee, or even free, for direct deposit or a net gain due to incentives from the cards, the vast majority of companies will go with the incentives. If a company is offered even further incentives for converting 100% of their hourly workers to the cards, they will. That is not rocket surgery. That is simply being aware that companies will go after every dime they can without regard to the wellfare of their employees.

This is not something that will affect people making $60,000+ a year. This will affect one group of people and one group only: the low-wage earners of the country. And it will affect them by banks taking just a few more dollars out of their already empty pockets every paycheck.

[Latrinsorm]

You mofo's went all whackadoo.Cock-a-leeky soup to you, sir!

[Suppressed Poet]

How exactly does this eff over workers?

If they get a chase pay card, they can either take the card into chase and withdraw it from a teller for free OR they can use it for purchases and ATM withdrawls and pay the fees for that.

If they are given a paper check they can either take it into chase to get the cash for free or they can go to any other bank or shitty check cashing place next to the liquor store and pay a much steeper fee than a pay card ATM withdrawl.

If the worker has a bank, direct deposits are always an option.

This is how it works...employers win because they reduce their operating cost by eliminating paper checks. Paper checks are incredibly inefficient in a high turn over workplace along with being the most expensive option. There are no "kickbacks" other than eliminating an outdated, expensive, and stupid way to pay employees. The bank wins because prepaid cards are highly profitable. They know the majority will in fact use the card out of conveinence and they will collect interchange from merchants along with cardholder fees. That is the reason they offer this service very cheaply to employers. The workers win because they have a faster, easier, and more secure way to access their money plus the convienence of a debit card to use should they choose to do so. Nobody Is twisting their arm or forcing them into something they dont want to do. Everybody wins.

[Suppressed Poet]

If the franchise was stupid enough to really claim they can't direct deposit, then maybe there is a case. Her explanation that the FI can't accept direct deposit through a pay card is stupid though. You either do a regular ACH deposit or the payroll card. They don't have anything to do with each other. And the pay card always has a method to get your money out for free through a FI. Chase is not dumb enough to make a product that breaks state laws. McDonalds is not that stupid either. You don't have to activate the card for purchases to get your money out the same way you would bring in a check into the bank. It is entirely possible that the franchise is an idiot and gave the wrong information to their employees. I suspect it is much more probable that the worker is an idiot that doesn't understand her options, and that some shitty attorney is just making a name for himself with a frivolous class action lawsuit.

[Suppressed Poet]

If the bank is 300 miles away, do you count the cost of time and gas as a fee? If no (or yes), how far away is the bank allowed to be?

I hardly doubt a chase branch is 300 miles away, but let's assume that is the case...

Still no different than a paper check option. Take that check to that specific bank and get it free, or pay a fee wherever you cash it if you don't have a bank account. Like I said, direct deposit is ALWAYS an option and what she said in the article is complete bs. Actually it is slightly different...that worker would pay a lot less in a fee to get their money out via an ATM somewhere than what they would pay to another bank or a check cashing place in the ghetto, while at the same time being much more secure and easy. You can't force the employer to pay them in cash or dictate their choice in banking.

[Wheelerm]

I read through all 9 pages of this thread and I started thinking, "what would happen if my employer sent me an email telling me that I will be paid with a pay card and will incur fees whether I used it or not? What would I do?"

The only answer I could come up with was, "Find another employer." Sure, it would be harder for me because I have a real career within a competitive industry in an uncertain economy, but I digress.

That's what this plaintiff should have done...it's not as if the fast-food industry is a hard industry to break into. Why, I'll bet there was a Burger King or Wendy's right across the street she could have gotten a job at.

[Tenlaar]

I hardly doubt a chase branch is 300 miles away, but let's assume that is the case...


The nearest Chase bank for me is 157 miles away. One way. And I don't live in the boonies somewhere, I live outside Richmond, Va. You doubting something does not make banks magically appear. Your entire argument is based on the assumption that the woman is simply too stupid to understand how getting paid works and that is ridiculous. You cannot just blithely declare that direct deposit is ALWAYS an option and make it be true when there is a lawsuit going on about somebody for whom it was not an option.

[Parkbandit]

The nearest Chase bank for me is 157 miles away. One way. And I don't live in the boonies somewhere, I live outside Richmond, Va. You doubting something does not make banks magically appear. Your entire argument is based on the assumption that the woman is simply too stupid to understand how getting paid works and that is ridiculous. You cannot just blithely declare that direct deposit is ALWAYS an option and make it be true when there is a lawsuit going on about somebody for whom it was not an option.

The closest Bank of Alaska branch to me is 4,390 miles away. I'm outraged.

[Suppressed Poet]

The nearest Chase bank for me is 157 miles away. One way. And I don't live in the boonies somewhere, I live outside Richmond, Va. You doubting something does not make banks magically appear. Your entire argument is based on the assumption that the woman is simply too stupid to understand how getting paid works and that is ridiculous. You cannot just blithely declare that direct deposit is ALWAYS an option and make it be true when there is a lawsuit going on about somebody for whom it was not an option.

It just so happens I work for Chase Paymentech and sell this product among other things. So I know how pay cards work and me declaring that it is always an option is from real experience. It's always an option. Employers would prefer direct deposit, and it is also a legal requirement they provide an alternative to pay cards. There are also no kickbacks other than getting away from the expense and hassle of paper checks. The lawsuit is complete bs. Take it from me.

[Suppressed Poet]

And regarding how far a bank is from you...the employers decision for banking isn't and shouldn't be based on how far of a drive it is for their employees to cash checks or pay cards. Once again you would face the same problem, only worse, if you don't have your own bank and were paid via a chase paper check.

[Latrinsorm]

Chase is not dumb enough to make a product that breaks state laws. McDonalds is not that stupid either.A multinational corporation breaking the law? Yes, that would be unheard of.
So I know how pay cards work and me declaring that it is always an option is from real experience. It's always an option. Employers would prefer direct deposit, and it is also a legal requirement they provide an alternative to pay cards.You have a set of experience - in every case you are aware of, there are options.
The plaintiff has a contradicting set of experience - in her particular case, there were not.

These claims only contradict if you insist that your personal experience is generalizable to everything everyone else does. Do you generally find that that is the case?

[Tgo01]

A multinational corporation breaking the law? Yes, that would be unheard of.

Not counting oil companies, military contracted companies or banks I bet you can't even name one without using Google.

[Androidpk]

Apple.
Walmart.

[Tgo01]

Companies whose names begin with the first four letter and last four letters of the alphabet don't count either.

[Androidpk]

Monsanto

[Latrinsorm]

Simutronics

[Tgo01]

Simutronics

Shut the front door!!!!

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I actually see pre-paid debit cards as a good thing. In this example, I would side with the plaintiff, but if it was an option and not required, I think that's great.

There are TONS of unbanked people (mostly low income) who CANNOT get banked/creidt cards because their credit is terrible or they have no credit history to speak of. A card such as this is actually a means for them to accrue good credit scores and then transition to a checking/savings account or credit card.

Also, not all pre-paid or funded cards have fees like the example above, most are better. In this case, it was some dumb franchisee who wanted to make their payroll easier by requiring pay be put on the card - not thinking about the consequences or the legality. You cannot mandate how someone receives their compensation, to my knowledge (like any business would love it if all their employees had direct deposit - but you can't make them).

[Bobmuhthol]

I'm pretty positive that bad credit or low income will not prevent you from having a checking account.

[Tgo01]

I'm pretty positive that bad credit or low income will not prevent you from having a checking account.

That's what I was thinking. I think as long as you have an ID and a social security number you can open a bank account just about anywhere, right?

[Androidpk]

If you owe a bank money they can put you on some kind of list that other banks will check and they won't allow you to open any type of account.

[Thondalar]

I'm pretty positive that bad credit or low income will not prevent you from having a checking account.

correct...just have to have whatever the minimum deposit is.

Of course, unless you're like me with certain banks, I'm completely banned from any sort of account with...but that's rare, and is usually the result of some sort of (juvenile, in my case) transgression involving said bank....



If you owe a bank money they can put you on some kind of list that other banks will check and they won't allow you to open any type of account.

Yes and no. Some banks may share information, but there are a lot of variables. Generally banks take your money up front and don't give out a whole lot unless you're in good standing, so their potential loss is minimal for, say, a generic checking account.

[Suppressed Poet]

In reality, you need neither an id or social to open a bank account. Yiundont have to be a us citizen to have a bank account here. They are supposed to collect id when opening, but in practice they don't always do so. I see it happen all the time. People open accounts with a stated state id and/or itin/social.

You do need an id to withdraw money though that is tied to the identity of the account holder. The bank will gladly accept deposits without much of anything, but to get it out you need verified identity.

[tyrant-201]

Check systems. It's more like if you've f'ed up with multiple banks within a couple of years. There's a way of finding out if you're on it, just like a credit report.

[Suppressed Poet]

Also, you really don't need much in credit to open a generic checking account. It used to be that way much more than today, but pretty much anybody can open an account in a bank. The reason we have unbanked people isn't that at all. It's that unbanked people either don't know they can get an account or don't want one. A poor person from the hood is used to the way he has been paid - getting his check cashed at the liquor store or being paid in cash. He has no idea how to balance a checkbook or see any value in the benefits of an account. And of course there is always the stigma (sometimes correct) that banks are here to rob the world.

Prepaid debit cards were as much designed to educate and bank the unbanked as it is to be a highly profitable profuct in and of itself. Chase loves turning a chase liquid card holder into someone who opens a business and/or personal account. The next step is a secured credit card. And from there it's as high as their credit takes it to add more good debt.

Little known fact...you know what is nearly always the most profitable item in your favorite retail store? That said store's branded credit card. Best Buy makes more money off of their issued credit cards than anything else they sell in the store.

[cor aut mors]

I'm pretty positive that bad credit or low income will not prevent you from having a checking account.

Bad credit or low income wont stop you from getting a bank account so long as you don't have multiple ChexSystems. A lot of banks don't use ChexSystems either and some offer 2nd chance checking, which if you've messed up once or twice, it's a limited account that you usually have to pay a monthly fee for.

Like previous people said, so long as you have an ID and required opening deposit, you should be able to get a bank account. You just might have to try a couple different banks or do research first.

[Suppressed Poet]

Check systems. It's more like if you've f'ed up with multiple banks within a couple of years. There's a way of finding out if you're on it, just like a credit report.

The most common method is to run the id against a check writing database like Telecheck. Most don't anymore. With technology today and check 21, the level of risk on checking accounts is really low. The bank has found it to be more profitable to keep the restriction to a simple opening deposit and approve anyone who does so. The loss from risk exposure is too small to justify anymore an approval process on basic checking accounts.

[cor aut mors]

Telecheck only checks to see if you've had bad checks. ChexSystems is what attaches to bank accounts.

[Suppressed Poet]

I worked for First Data too (owns Telecheck). Both are used. FD has a seperate database for banks to verify and sells that product mainly to regional and local banks - though that was back in the day. They have all the data they need for banks as the largest and first check database. I don't work in the retail banking end though. I just talk to branch managers all day but thank God I'm not officed in a branch. Maybe they have got away from that. Used to be checks were the primary and nearly only reason for bad debt in checking accounts, but may not be the case any longer.

[DoctorUnne]

Good job switching from First Data to Paymentech. FDC is a sinking ship but Paymentech is where it's at right now with the partnerships with Square, GoPago etc.

[Parkbandit]

Good job switching from First Data to Paymentech. FDC is a sinking ship but Paymentech is where it's at right now with the partnerships with Square, GoPago etc.

I love Square.

[Suppressed Poet]

Good job switching from First Data to Paymentech. FDC is a sinking ship but Paymentech is where it's at right now with the partnerships with Square, GoPago etc.

JP Morgan Chase invested in Square, this is true. Paymentech had nothing to do with it except that they helped them originaly develop a processing network. Chase since pulled out its money - too much risk. Don't get me wrong - Square is awesome and a brilliant startup. They target micro merchants though...completely different market all together. Somebody fucked up on the banking side and incorrectly promoted that within the bank as a chase Paymentech product. It never was. Id call them a competitor but that's not really the case... They did however put mobile payments on the map in a big way and changed the industry in some ways.

I started at Paymentech, then was allocated to FD when they split in 08, FD made a new JV with bofA, and then came back. They all have there pros and cons but Paymentech feels like home.

[Suppressed Poet]

And yeah FD is a sinking ship. It's been to KKR what countrywide is to BofA - big effin headache. Too much debt. I won't be surprised if chase or somebody else buys them out soon. Diamond's right hand man is now their CEO.

[Tgo01]

All of this McDonald's talk is making me hungry for a bacon and ranch Mcwrap.

[diethx]

All of this McDonald's talk is making me hungry for a bacon and ranch Mcwrap.

Dude, those are so good.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Ok, so I misspoke regards the underbanked. Let me put it another way - low income people are the most likely to be underbanked. I.e. not having a bank account, or not having all the options a bank account can provide. They also typically do not qualify for free checking (which means monthly fees or limited check writing). A card is just another alternative.

Again, I see it as a positive so long as it's not a requirement. Alternatives are always a good thing for someone with limited options - even those without limited options.

[4a6c1]

And having good credit in the US matters fucking zero if you work internationally and your wealth is completely mobile (most people in the world).

[AnticorRifling]

Most people in the world have completely mobile wealth?

Also...

Do people working internationally with mobile wealth make up the majority of workers at McDonald's?

[4a6c1]

Most people in the world have completely mobile wealth?



Most people in the world are diaspora or at least transglobal and mobile wealth is king, yes. Regional credit focus is not universal and actually outside the norm for the rest of the world. Just putting that out there for consideration.

Was it addressed in this thread why the McD workers can't receive paper checks? That seems odd.

[stormcrow]

I'm in a unique situation regarding this discussion. I own 9 fast food restaurants. I won't say which but it's very popular. My bank is Wells Fargo, and they have been pushing me to do these debit cards to pay my employee's. They claim that there are no charges to withdraw their money at an atm nor to use it in a store to buy groceries. Basically they claim, they won't have to go to the bank to cash the check and this would eliminate one step for them. Most of my 300 employee's are minimum wage and I'd say most don't have a bank account. As of yet, I still cut payroll at my office and hand sign every check. (while i'm at a table absorbing all my exp of course). Personally I don't think it was the franchisee's intention to cheat his employee's. And you have to remember that franchisee's have options on how they run their business when it comes to payroll and things like that: so it's not necessarily a 'McDonalds' decision. I was shocked when I read this article because I had been pondering doing this with my company. As a lawyer also, I tend to look at things from a worse case scenario on all my decisions, but this never even occurred to me. But banking is changing, cutting and sending checks is going out of style. More and more vendors want things paid electronically. But doing direct deposit on payroll checks in my industry is hard because not many have bank accounts. There are still problems with employers who send out checks. I've had numerous issues with people creating and forging checks. Also last week I had a new one: employee takes picture of check to deposit with some new deposit from your phone app, then heads to walmart and cashes check. Bank deposits the money into it's accounts and denies the walmart claim. Walmart now comes after me saying I gave someone a bad check. Nifty huh? Hope that shit doesn't turn into a rash. I know I try and do what is best for my employee's. I really do and I think most other employers do also. After this lawsuit, I'm putting the whole bank card payroll idea on the back-burner for sure.

[Tenlaar]

Was it addressed in this thread why the McD workers can't receive paper checks? That seems odd.

Because the owner of the franchise said no. Management was offered the choice of direct deposit, regular employees were given no other option.

That is the entirety of my concern. Offering it as an option is fine. I worry about what will happen if it goes through the courts and it is decided that it is legal to offer no other option. I trust banks about as far as I can throw them. Beefcake as I may be, that's not very damn far. Putting them into a position where they get to decide what kind of cut they end up getting out of somebody's paycheck is beyond a horrible idea.

[cor aut mors]

My job requires us to have direct deposit, which sucks because I'm not a huge fan of banks (my boyfriend is a bank manager too, how ironic) BUT they give us the option of where we want our checks to be deposited at. I think that's the major downfall of this and why Mickey D's will lose in court.

Edited to add: Anyone can go pick up one of those "MoneyPak" prepaid cards and have their checks direct deposited onto those as well. During the year or so I didn't have a bank account, I carried two of those and had my check split between them. As long as you have a specific amount deposited onto it or make a certain number of transactions a month, they don't charge a fee either and the direct deposit is free.

[Bobmuhthol]

Please don't take this personally, but when you say you're not a fan of banks I have to conclude that you're a fucking retard.

[Tgo01]

Please don't take this personally, but when you say you're not a fan of banks I have to conclude that you're a fucking retard.

Hey hey hey! I put my money under my mattress and I've never had a problem!

[Lulfas]

Kmart was going to do this back when I worked there 5 or 6 years ago. Direct deposit wasn't an option for the regular workers, everything went through the paycard. bank was Chase, which we didn't have in town. Week before it was supposed to be implemented they handed out the cards, there was some rumors of a class action, and the idea disappeared. It was always "next week" it would be implemented.

[DoctorUnne]

Paymentech had nothing to do with it except that they helped them originaly develop a processing network.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Paymentech still does processing for Square. That is the partnership I was referring to, although I agree Square is a competitor on the acquiring side.

I'm sure KKR would love to get out at a decent price but I don't think JPM would buy FDC. Dimon hates them from what I've heard, although maybe that will change with the new CEO. It's still a cash cow so they can keep recapping it in the meantime.

[Candor]

Please don't take this personally, but when you say you're not a fan of banks I have to conclude that you're a fucking retard.

I am not a fan of banks.

But I am a big fan of credit unions.