Capped Warmage Discussion

[Sygil81]

Been reading a lot about war mages in some of the older threads here. There was one recently in the past few months regarding lagging AS, and Whirlin made some great points.

I was wondering if we could elaborate or maybe come up with some suggestions (not new features, but build tweaks) to help see what can be done about post-80 to capped warmages. I have a couple questions, then maybe some ideas that I don't have the capacity to test.

1.) I know the AS lags behind rangers by almost 50 by cap as per whirlin's post. Is it possible to at least make the AS viable? How much AS do you need to hunt the capped zones? OTF, Nelemar and Scatter? Bandits?

2.) Where is the appropriate capped warmage hunting area? It looks like Nelemar, but I'm not really including undead.

3.) Earth Lore. I have 30 ranks for a +5 bonus. 30 more ranks would give another +3, which doesn't seem TOO out of the question, but that leaves.. 101 - 60 -24 = 17 ranks leftover. 12 more ranks would give another +1 AS. Doesn't feel worth it.

4.) Boil Earth and Fire Lore. How much does fire lore affect boil earth's damage? Could you split your lore training to help that out a bit? warmages have a hard time bolting and immolate isn't an option without fire lore. 415 could work, but boil earth could be a nice manuever based option to knock things over that won't take a call wind/ewave. Feint doesn't knock them prone. For a 1x lores path, could do:

24 air, 30 earth and 50+ fire lore. Or, 24 air, 60 earth and 17 fire. Might take that up to 24 for the full +100 bonus, if that makes a difference.

Discuss!

[Buckwheet]

I would not recommend warmage post 80. I would switch to ranged by then and finish out my career.

[Haldrik]

I would not recommend warmage post 80. I would switch to ranged by then and finish out my career.

Ranged bows? Or ranged as in bolting?

[Methais]

IMMOLATE 4 LYFE!

Pretty are you'll need a lot of enhancives to boost your AS to be viable at cap.

That was definitely the case with ranged when I tried it out (some things were easily hittable, but most weren't even after call wind), which is easier than warmage at cap as far as the numbers go.

[senorgordoburro]

Immolate is expensive TP wise and mana wise, but I would say it is second only to a pure bard in awesome killing power.

[Sygil81]

I would not recommend warmage post 80. I would switch to ranged by then and finish out my career.

For RP reasons, I don't think I'll ever go pure. I'm mainly trying to spark discussions on how to make it even possible to progress, at cap, as a warmage. I know other builds are better, and other classes are even better.

My questions still stand. How much AS do you need to hunt effectively at cap? What critters will you struggle with and can it be fixed (fire lore boil earth, various knockdowns and feint)? I don't care if it's some amazing super build, but I'd like it to be possible to warmage at cap.

And no bows....

[Tgo01]

Pretty are you'll need a lot of enhancives to boost your AS to be viable at cap.

I think you accidentally but I'm not sure.

[Tgo01]

1.) I know the AS lags behind rangers by almost 50 by cap as per whirlin's post.

It's only 50? I thought it would have been a lot more.

[Haldrik]

It's only 50? I thought it would have been a lot more.

Maybe he's talking about ranged versus melee. Since perception adds AS, maybe the gap isn't as big?

[Methais]

I think you accidentally but I'm not sure.

It was an autocorrect accidentally, which means my phone accidentally tried to not accidentally but ended up accidentally.

Something about good intentions and the road to hell.

[Methais]

It's only 50? I thought it would have been a lot more.

It should be at least 100 difference...101 ranks vs. 202 ranks.

My ranged AS with 4x bow and ebladed arrows and GoS sigils was 397 if that helps. And I still had trouble hitting things usually, and bolt AS is usually way lower than physical DS.

[Tgo01]

It should be at least 100 difference...101 ranks vs. 202 ranks.

Yeah, 2x weapon skill and 2x CM compared to 1x in each is 150 AS difference.

Assuming self spelled only wizards gain +5 AS from strength compared to phoen's strength and +50 from 425 for 95 less AS, not factoring in bonus to strength from earth lore because I'm too lazy to find that out. Anything else I'm missing?

ETA: Plus rangers have stuff like ambushing and camouflage to add +30 AS to their hidden attacks. Wizards just have an uphill battle at cap to be a battle mage, it's a lot more than just their low AS.

[Methais]

Pretty sure the moral of this story is if you want to be a viable capped warmage, be prepared to spend a lot of money on a high enchant weapon and enhancives.a 4x claidhmore and +50 in enhancives should do the trick.

[Tenlaar]

In theory a heavy earth lore trained warmage could end up with +16 AS from earth lore (and a pretty damn good stone fist, to boot), so that potentially brings it down to 79. Hmm.

[Androidpk]

Buy that 8x HCW greatsword, get some enhancives, and boom goes the dynamite.

[Glitch]

Pretty sure the moral of this story is if you want to be a viable capped warmage, be prepared to spend a lot of money on a high enchant weapon and enhancives.a 4x claidhmore and +50 in enhancives should do the trick.

I ran pure warmage (no spell aiming) using a lance from level 1 to 100 and had no trouble acclimating to the Rift. Pretty much used an e-bladed lance the entire way up.

[Haldrik]

In theory a heavy earth lore trained warmage could end up with +16 AS from earth lore (and a pretty damn good stone fist, to boot), so that potentially brings it down to 79. Hmm.

It helps with Stoneskin too I believe.

[Haldrik]

Yeah, 2x weapon skill and 2x CM compared to 1x in each is 150 AS difference.

.

What happens when you add perception/ranged weapons into the mix ?

[Tyronebiggums]

Buy that 8x HCW greatsword, get some enhancives, and boom goes the dynamite.

Yah, you should buy that HCW sword

[Whirlin]

And no bows....

Well this was a fun thread... I'm out.

[Tenlaar]

It helps with Stoneskin too I believe.


That it does. The earth lore would also give a guaranteed three-strike boil and one wicked hurl boulder if SA was trained.

[Whirlin]

Yeah, 80+ is where warmages begin to slow down. I've done quite a bit of comparison on it, and here's the maths, logics, whatnots.

To attempt to stay competitive, a warmage needs to train THW + CM... that's netting 1.5 AS per level. Right off the bat we're at a 1 AS per level deficit compared to a semi/square who'se 1xed in CM. We have two tools to assist in bridging the gap: 425 and 509. Rangers have Phoen Strength, Bards are overpowered with Kai's and 425. Pallys train like, 50 ranks per level in CMANs, and then have some AS spell too, I think... Lets just, for argument's sake, compare a wizard to a ranger.

Since 425's potency is .5/level, that still puts us at a .5 AS per level deficit compared to a ranger. Lets see how this plays out:

At level 20, we're 15 AS below them (15 (509) -20 - 10 (606)). We really need that 425 potency!
At 25, we're actually above them (15-25-10+25) by 5 AS due to 425. But they gain on us pretty steadily.
At level 75, we're actually pretty close (75 - 15 + 10 - 50) 20 AS. But we've maxed out 425 potency.
At level 80, we're starting to lag (80-15+10-50) 25 AS.
At 90, we really need every point of AS we can get (90-15+10-50) 35 AS
At new to cap, we're at -45 AS compared to a ranger.
Arguably... I may have missed some fundamental new ranger AS boosting ability... but whatever, highlights the concerns.

This is further complicated by 513 mechanics. While STOP has made it almost viable for 2HW Warmages to use 513, it's still very costly to switch attack forms, in mana, Training Points, and really determining what you're gonna do with your character.

I personally consider 2HW warmages to be an 'all in' build. I would recommend saving your TP and bipassing excessive training in AS, MIU, and SA. Your main spells will be e-wave, haste, and other miscellaneous things like maybe a boil earth... major e-wave... ... ... I dunno what else. These additional TP can be used towards training off hindrance from heavier armors (I've seen lots of warmages in leather breastplate). I mean, if you're using your spells towards disabling, and not every 3 seconds, occasional hindrance is manageable.

The only other thing I can think of is earth lore for Strength potency. It's a Seed 4 bonus, so you need 4 ranks for the first +1 AS... 4 ranks in lore = the same TP cost as a 3x'ed spell research (Even as a warmage, I'd likely be 2xing in spells), but with all seed equations, that greatly diminishes each rank.



Ok... so... what about ranged weapons?

I converted to a ranged wizard the day GS4 was released. Should have seen the looks I got back then. Ranged Weapons were still widely untested, and their mechanics unknown. All I knew was that I tried Runestaff Defense, and I had a higher DS with a bow in my hand. Even now, since I'm wearing a title from an event 10 years ago, people still mistake me for a ranger.

The reason I ever considered ranged weapons in the first place as a wizard was because they utilize the same DEX bonus that I already possessed in excess. You're a dwarf. Your racial Dex bonus is 0. The only race you have a higher DEX than is a giantman.

513 does not impact ranged attacks. This means that we don't need to be restricted to just magic or just arrows, we can actually utilize both of them. Open with a 505, finish with arrows. It's a true hybrid build between a warmage and a pure. The downside is that it also suffers from an AS slowdown after 425 potency has been maxed. However, since ranged DS is different than melee DS, the requirements aren't as high. Plus, everyone has +50 to AS when using ranged weapons. It's cheap and easy to get.

I think based on the repeat questions on these forums about Warmages versus RangedMages versus Pure Mages, I'll start another thread and consolidate my thoughts for anyone interested. (I know, sounds terrible)



As an avid metagamer, I would recommend a dwarf go warmage. Your statistics lean towards a more physical path. I know it's racist... but, whatever.

Hey, it's my old thread that spurred the sticky guide.

[Whirlin]

Ohh... that post didn't answer anything.

Contrary to popular belief... even though I highly recommend it, most rangers go 1x ambushing until much later in their careers. Due to Ambushing and Perceptions -40 mechanic, the gap isn't as wide as you'd think... 100 ranks in ambushing ends up being +15 AS. So a total of +116 due to the +101 ranks in ranged weapons over us.
Then we have 425 on our side, bringing that deficit down to -51 relative to a ranger.

The perk of being a wizard though is that we don't need the strength in our race selection the way rangers do. Our +15 STR is much more potent than their +10 from Phoen. All we require is a +5 STR mod to be able to fire a longbow (aimed) in 1 second with 51 MjE and 24 Air Lore. Even a halfling can get that. Therefore, Wizards tend to have a higher DEX mod to help alleviate that -51 compared to rangers at CAP.

[Whirlin]

tl;dr: Buy my bow.

[Haldrik]

Hey, it's my old thread that spurred the sticky guide.

Hahaha. I'm still not clear how ranged AS with perception compares to CM/Weapon training? I suppose I could go look it up... :P But brighter minds I'm sure have the answer on the tip of their fingers.

[Buckwheet]

After that post, you really should buy his bow.

[Mtenda]

And no bows....

5219

Bo Knows Bows

[Glitch]

I tried bows, they weren't very fun for me. Probably effective, but I found killing things easier with a lance.

For reference...


Armor Use..........................| 111 27
Combat Maneuvers...................| 201 101
Polearm Weapons....................| 201 101
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 50 10
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 140 40
Magic Item Use.....................| 140 40
Harness Power......................| 245 145
Elemental Mana Control.............| 280 180
Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 160 60
Elemental Lore - Fire..............| 242 142
Perception.........................| 201 101
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 140 40


Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 128


Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 75


Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 100

[Sygil81]

At level 20, we're 15 AS below them (15 (509) -20 - 10 (606)). We really need that 425 potency!
At 25, we're actually above them (15-25-10+25) by 5 AS due to 425. But they gain on us pretty steadily.
At level 75, we're actually pretty close (75 - 15 + 10 - 50) 20 AS. But we've maxed out 425 potency.
At level 80, we're starting to lag (80-15+10-50) 25 AS.
At 90, we really need every point of AS we can get (90-15+10-50) 35 AS
At new to cap, we're at -45 AS compared to a ranger.

That's the part I was really mentioning. A ranger would, I assume, scale much higher as they get to 2x CM.

I'm really not trying to start a debate if warmages are better than rangers or whatnot, I just want to know if it's actually doable. Can our AS get high enough to reliably hunt at cap? If not, how to compensate? Earth lore has diminishing returns and obviously will not make up 50 AS. Are capped critters easily tremored? Call wind? Stanceable? How does fire lore affect boil earth, being the only non-CS non-bolt damage spell we could hit with (other than major ewave...).

From what I calc:

35 str (dwarf)
201 weapon
51 CM
15 from 509
5 from 30 earth lore
50 from 425
= 357 base

5x weap, GoS Sigils gives another 55, so 412.

If you were swinging at 412 at cap, is that doable given appropriate setup with prones and stance forcing?

[Sygil81]

I tried bows, they weren't very fun for me. Probably effective, but I found killing things easier with a lance.

For reference...


Armor Use..........................| 111 27
Combat Maneuvers...................| 201 101
Polearm Weapons....................| 201 101
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 50 10
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 140 40
Magic Item Use.....................| 140 40
Harness Power......................| 245 145
Elemental Mana Control.............| 280 180
Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 160 60
Elemental Lore - Fire..............| 242 142
Perception.........................| 201 101
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 140 40


Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 128


Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 75


Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 100

This is quite helpful. How high do you swing and what do you hunt? What is the purpose of your fire lore?

[Glitch]

Fire lore is for killing some other things in the Rift, just diversifying post-cap. I tried pretty much every high-level hunting grounds and had no problem with a little adjustment.

My AS is 405 with an e-bladed lance and CoL.

At this point I am using a nicer weapon, but I thought I would check with e-blade just to see. I was using e-blades up through OTF, but I'm attuned to lightning so I had to stop at nelemar. Now in Rift, I use a 7x perfect lance.

Stats:



Strength (STR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Constitution (CON): 100 (20) ... 99 (19)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Agility (AGI): 98 (29) ... 98 (29)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (15) ... 100 (15)
Aura (AUR): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Logic (LOG): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Intuition (INT): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Wisdom (WIS): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Influence (INF): 83 (11) ... 83 (11)

[Whirlin]

Only point of reference I have for capped critter DS hunting is:

You swing an ochre faewood runestaff at a gremlock!
AS: +28 vs DS: +417 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +16 = -361
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 8 sec.

Standing, in offensive. Those critters are like, early 80s

So you likely could disable it and get that down to something hittable.

[Androidpk]

Yah, you should buy that HCW sword

Oh so tempting but I don't have a warmage.

[Glitch]

So I literally just got back in the game and I don't recall much, but this discussion has me going back through my last couple logs to look. I copied the kill blows and some defensive info if I saw it. Fetish masters and Liches are killable, but I just ignored them.

I was/am using bigshot as a hunting script, there are benefits and drawbacks to that. I usually would hunt an area a dozen or so times by hand to get a feel and then go into the script aspect, so it's perfectly do-able either way.


Cerebralite


You gesture at a glistening cerebralite.

A shifting, prismatic aura coalesces around a glistening cerebralite, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!


The bright luminescence fades from around a glistening cerebralite.
A shadow seems to detach itself from a glistening cerebralite, swiftly dissipating into the air.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a glistening cerebralite.
The brilliant aura fades away from a glistening cerebralite.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

A translucent shell appears around the cerebralite, absorbing most of the blow.
You thrust with a lightning rod at a glistening cerebralite!
AS: +420 vs DS: +286 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +65 = +233
... and hit for 100 points of damage!
An intangible ripple of pure energy courses through the air as the cerebralite's pupils widen a final time, its eyes clouding over as it dies.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.


Soul Siphon


You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Mana Leech...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a murky soul siphon.
CS: +553 - TD: +487 + CvA: +25 + d100: +95 == +186
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam momentarily materializes between you and the soul siphon!
The soul siphon shakes violently!
You feel a sudden rush of power as you absorb 80 mana!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a murky soul siphon.
CS: +553 - TD: +487 + CvA: +25 + d100: +91 == +182
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a murky soul siphon and it bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
The soul siphon twitches and writhes spasmodically before collapsing to the ground.
The bright luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
A murky soul siphon glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding a murky soul siphon suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


Destroyer

You gesture.
A translucent sphere forms around you.


You are now in an offensive stance.

As the destroyer attacks, he and his black steel maul seem to move together in perfect tandem, making his strike look almost effortless!
A Vvrael destroyer swings a crackling black steel maul at you!
AS: +452 vs DS: +532 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +58 = +22
A clean miss

You thrust with a lightning rod at a Vvrael destroyer!
AS: +420 vs DS: +242 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +80 = +291
... and hit for 80 points of damage!
Throat nearly crushed. The Vvrael destroyer makes gurgling noises.
The Vvrael destroyer writhes in black agony and dies.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.

[Glitch]

Also found a capture of non-capped skill/stats in case you wanted some info about how that looked. Think I was in OTF at the time...

Once I hit enough MjE ranks, I was able to drop Air lore and still have a 5 second swing time, at which point I started getting fire lore for fun.


R>info
Name: Glitch Race: Dark Elf Profession: Wizard (shown as: Circuit Bender)
Gender: Male Age: 333 Expr: 7124589 Level: 95
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Constitution (CON): 87 (13) ... 87 (13)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (15) ... 100 (15)
Aura (AUR): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Logic (LOG): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Intuition (INT): 80 (20) ... 80 (20)
Wisdom (WIS): 78 (19) ... 78 (19)
Influence (INF): 71 (5) ... 71 (5)
Mana: 295 Silver: 1508

R>skill
Glitch (at level 95), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 111 27
Combat Maneuvers...................| 197 97
Polearm Weapons....................| 197 97
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 35 7
Physical Fitness...................| 197 97
Arcane Symbols.....................| 197 97
Magic Item Use.....................| 197 97
Harness Power......................| 195 95
Elemental Mana Control.............| 197 97
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 102 24
Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 70 15
Survival...........................| 140 40
Perception.........................| 197 97
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 160 60
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 60
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 76
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 60

[Sygil81]

Heh, I didn't even notice you had no air lore in the first skills list.

Did you hit 100 wizard ranks before starting to overtrain your MjE? Gives more DS, but CS suffers.

Also, are you proning the cerebralite? Why don't you swing at the soul siphon? I've obviously never hunted scatter, so I'm probably missing obvious things. My guess is just showing the AS and the CS, instead of there being some insane reason you "cant" swing at soul siphons or something.

Given how much fire lore you have, can boil go boil some things and see how much damage it does? I'm starting to log my boil hits and see how much that really affects it. I know the spell sucks, but I wouldn't use it primarily for damage. Looking to prone things that can't usually be hit by 909, 912, 410.

[Glitch]

Some stuff at level 97 in Nelemar.



You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
CS: +483 - TD: +400 + CvA: +25 + d100: +38 == +146
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam momentarily materializes between you and the triton defender!
The triton defender shakes violently!
You feel a sudden rush of power as you absorb 46 mana!


You gesture at a triton combatant.
CS: +483 - TD: +390 + CvA: +20 + d100: +52 == +165
Warding failed!
A triton combatant's eyes roll up into his head as his body goes limp on the ground.

A triton combatant is awakened by your attack!
You thrust with a vultite lance at a triton combatant!
AS: +397 vs DS: +147 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +91 = +373
... and hit for 131 points of damage!
Strike through eye, the triton combatant is lobotomized!
The triton combatant gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on his face.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.


You gesture at a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton radical suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +483 - TD: +428 + CvA: +25 + d100: +67 == +147
Warding failed!
A triton radical's eyes roll up into her head as she slumps to the ground.

You thrust with a vultite lance at a triton radical!
AS: +397 vs DS: +245 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +75 = +260
... and hit for 103 points of damage!
Strike to wrist severs left hand!
The triton radical gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on her face.







Just past cap in OTF:


[Roll result: 141 (open d100: 26) Penalties: 0]
You swing your steel lance at an Ithzir adept's crystal-tipped staff and connect!
An Ithzir adept's crystal-tipped staff is knocked to the ground!
Roundtime: 5 sec.

You thrust with an exquisite steel lance at an Ithzir adept!
AS: +400 vs DS: +340 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +93 = +192
... and hit for 110 points of damage!
Incredible smash to what used to be a stomach!
The Ithzir adept falls to the ground in a crumpled heap.

Roundtime changed to 1 second.




You gesture at an Ithzir janissary.
CS: +516 - TD: +386 + CvA: -2 + d100: +55 == +183
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam momentarily materializes between you and the Ithzir janissary!
The Ithzir janissary shakes violently!
You feel a sudden rush of power as you absorb 56 mana!

You gesture at an Ithzir herald.
CS: +516 - TD: +421 + CvA: +9 + d100: +39 == +143
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam momentarily materializes between you and the Ithzir herald!
The Ithzir herald shakes violently!

You feel a sudden rush of power as you absorb 40 mana!


A war griffin tries to bite you!
AS: +437 vs DS: +480 with AvD: +30 + d100 roll: +25 = +12
A clean miss.

You thrust with an exquisite steel lance at a war griffin!
AS: +400 vs DS: +188 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +57 = +304
... and hit for 142 points of damage!
Strike to right arm shatters elbow and severs forearm!
The war griffin screeches loudly as it cradles its mangled right front leg!

[Glitch]

Heh, I didn't even notice you had no air lore in the first skills list.

Did you hit 100 wizard ranks before starting to overtrain your MjE? Gives more DS, but CS suffers.

Also, are you proning the cerebralite? Why don't you swing at the soul siphon? I've obviously never hunted scatter, so I'm probably missing obvious things. My guess is just showing the AS and the CS, instead of there being some insane reason you "cant" swing at soul siphons or something.

Given how much fire lore you have, can boil go boil some things and see how much damage it does? I'm starting to log my boil hits and see how much that really affects it. I know the spell sucks, but I wouldn't use it primarily for damage. Looking to prone things that can't usually be hit by 909, 912, 410.

I just got to 76 MnE and then 1x'd Wiz and MjE because I was also enchanting.

I just dispel the cerebralite once, they have all their DS in defensive spells and are squishy without them.

Siphons are undead I think, I can't actually recall.

Boil earth sucks, unfortunately. It's not worth using but I'm bored so I'll go hit a couple things for the hell of it.

[Glitch]

I'm not near the cap areas, so I went over to minotaurs. Bowels critters shrug off boil, and I haven't gotten back up to Icemule yet to hit the rift.

You gesture at a grizzled minotaur magus.
The ground beneath a grizzled minotaur magus begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 10 points of damage!
Strike glances off the chest.
... 10 points of damage!
Minor burns to back. Looks uncomfortable.
... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left hand burns fingers bright red.
A grizzled minotaur magus falls to the ground.
... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left leg burns skin bright red.
The boiling ground shifts, erupting towards a lesser minotaur in a burst of flame!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 10 points of damage!
Brushing blow to left hand.
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to neck chars skin. Yuck!
The lesser minotaur is stunned!
A lesser minotaur falls to the ground.
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left arm toasts skin to elbows.
The ground then quickly cools.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a grizzled minotaur magus.
The ground beneath a grizzled minotaur magus begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 10 points of damage!
Blow to back connects lightly.
... 35 points of damage!
Abdomen bursts into flames. Would be funny without the blood.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to right leg. That hurts a bit.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to left leg. That hurts a bit.
A grizzled minotaur magus falls to the ground.
The boiling ground shifts, erupting towards a lesser minotaur in a burst of flame!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 10 points of damage!
Blow to neck tears tissue.
The lesser minotaur is stunned!
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to left hand. Gonna need lots of butter.
A lesser minotaur falls to the ground.
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left eye incinerates eyelid. Gruesome.
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left arm burns skin bright red.
The ground then quickly cools.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a grizzled minotaur magus.
The ground beneath a grizzled minotaur magus begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 15 points of damage!
Blow connects with abdomen.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to left leg. That hurts a bit.
... 25 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right leg blackens kneecap.
... 10 points of damage!
Minor burns to chest. That hurts a bit.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to right arm. That hurts a bit.
The boiling ground shifts, erupting towards a lesser minotaur in a burst of flame!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 15 points of damage!
Nice blow to back!
>917 magus
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left eye incinerates eyelid. Gruesome.
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to back fries shoulder blades. Youch!
... 25 points of damage!
Right hand fried to a crisp. Think barbecue sauce.
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to chest make you wish you never heard of heartburn.
The ground then quickly cools.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a grizzled minotaur magus.
The ground beneath a grizzled minotaur magus begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 20 points of damage!
Brushing blow to right hand.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to chest. That hurts a bit.
... 30 points of damage!
Nasty burns to abdomen, a grizzled minotaur magus shrieks in pain!
... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left arm burns skin bright red.
... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right arm burns skin bright red.
The boiling ground shifts, erupting towards a lesser minotaur in a burst of flame!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 15 points of damage!
Nice blow to left leg!
The lesser minotaur is stunned!
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left hand fries palm. Ouch!
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to abdomen, a lesser minotaur shrieks in pain!
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right arm burns skin bright red.
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to back. Won't be sleeping on that for awhile.
The ground then quickly cools.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a grizzled minotaur magus.
The ground beneath a grizzled minotaur magus begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 15 points of damage!
Blow grazes left arm lightly.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to chest. That hurts a bit.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to left arm. That hurts a bit.
... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left arm burns skin bright red.
One last prolonged bovine moan escapes from the minotaur magus as he falls still against the floor.
The powerful look leaves a grizzled minotaur magus.
A grizzled minotaur magus appears less confident.
A subtle light fades from a grizzled minotaur magus's eyes.
The opalescent aura fades from around a grizzled minotaur magus.
The deep blue glow leaves a grizzled minotaur magus.
The brilliant aura fades away from a grizzled minotaur magus.
The dim aura fades from around a grizzled minotaur magus.
The light blue glow leaves a grizzled minotaur magus.
The boiling ground shifts, erupting towards a minotaur warrior in a burst of flame!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 25 points of damage!
Strong blow to left arm breaks it!
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right arm toasts skin to elbows.
A minotaur warrior falls to the ground.
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to back. Won't be sleeping on that for awhile.
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to back fries shoulder blades. Youch!
The boiling ground shifts, erupting towards a lesser minotaur in a burst of flame!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 15 points of damage!
Nice blow to chest!
The lesser minotaur is stunned!
... 30 points of damage!
Extreme heat melts the skin off a lesser minotaur's right hand. Gross!
The minotaur's leather-wrapped waraxe falls to the ground.
A low gurgling sound comes from deep within the chest of the lesser minotaur as he falls slack against the floor.
The ground then quickly cools.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

[Glitch]

Looking to prone things that can't usually be hit by 909, 912, 410.

Don't forget about 501 and CMAN TRIP. Those and 909 were about all I would use.

[Sygil81]

Don't forget about 501 and CMAN TRIP. Those and 909 were about all I would use.

Is it worth training CMAN TRIP, or are you using it without ranks, just pole training?

I don't use 501 much, because my CS is horrible, but that's a good call.

[Glitch]

Gotta train it. You should be training 1x CM anyway, so it's a good place to use those points. You could also try feint if you weren't using a polearm, but I found trip to be fantastic.

[Sygil81]

Interesting. With that much fire lore, the damage is still pretty garbage. A couple of those didn't knockdown, but they may have been already prone. No 2 hit casts, seems a minimum of 3 (but small sample size), and in those few casts, more 30-35 hits than I've gotten in the last 30 casts.

Thanks for letting me pick your brain, very helpful! I think i'd rather overtain harness power before I train fire lore for boil >.> Sad day.

[Sygil81]

Gotta train it. You should be training 1x CM anyway, so it's a good place to use those points. You could also try feint if you weren't using a polearm, but I found trip to be fantastic.

I have rank5 of feint, I find it really useful when call wind isn't applicable. Mainly warcamps and glacei/elementals. I haven't found something that can be tripped but not tremored... Could be wrong!

[Methais]

Interesting. With that much fire lore, the damage is still pretty garbage. A couple of those didn't knockdown, but they may have been already prone. No 2 hit casts, seems a minimum of 3 (but small sample size), and in those few casts, more 30-35 hits than I've gotten in the last 30 casts.

Thanks for letting me pick your brain, very helpful! I think i'd rather overtain harness power before I train fire lore for boil >.> Sad day.

Only the first hit of Boil Earth is affected by fire lore. The rest are based on Earth Lore.

[Aluvius]

You gesture at a murky soul siphon.
CS: +553 - TD: +487 + CvA: +25 + d100: +91 == +182
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a murky soul siphon and it bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
The soul siphon twitches and writhes spasmodically before collapsing to the ground.
The bright luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
A murky soul siphon glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding a murky soul siphon suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Was that Immolation you cast on it?

Has anyone tried using 512 Ice Patch much? I've wondered if its warcamp shroud neutral, if so it might be decent to keep up for incoming waves. Otherwise against non undead it would seem 501 is quite useful at higher levels as a disabler.

Glad this thread took off, I've been wondering too about the future of warmaging since my wizard is 54 at the moment. Currently I'm fixed back to a pure for some enchanting projects but I miss warmaging so much I think I'll have to swap back soon. However I just joined Sunfist so I think I might want to keep bolting until I can get AS from the society signs.

[Glitch]

You gesture at a murky soul siphon.
CS: +553 - TD: +487 + CvA: +25 + d100: +91 == +182
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a murky soul siphon and it bursts into flame!
... 30 points of damage!
The soul siphon twitches and writhes spasmodically before collapsing to the ground.
The bright luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
A murky soul siphon glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding a murky soul siphon suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Was that Immolation you cast on it?

Has anyone tried using 512 Ice Patch much? I've wondered if its warcamp shroud neutral, if so it might be decent to keep up for incoming waves. Otherwise against non undead it would seem 501 is quite useful at higher levels as a disabler.


Yeah that's immolation, it takes a decent amount of casts to kill but you can also leech them fairly easily.

I tried 512 for a little bit but never got water lore, decided it was kind of pointless.

I have no experience in warcamps so I can't speak to that part.

CMAN TRIP was pretty much all I had to use up until Bowels & maybe Minotaurs, at which point I started adding 909 and 501 to start the fight. They stance up when they stand, so it's nice to have a way to impose RT, stancing, and re-knocking-over at the same time.

[Methais]

Otherwise against non undead it would seem 501 is quite useful at higher levels as a disabler.

If you can ward them with 501, just cast Immolate instead. Even without fire lore it's still a better disabler and should keep them rolling around on the ground fighting the flames for a couple rounds instead of waking them up as soon as you attack. Against stuff that stuns it probably doesn't matter, but stuff that doesn't stun you might wanna consider that.

However I just joined Sunfist so I think I might want to keep bolting until I can get AS from the society signs. [/quote]

Try out fire anything in a troll camp and you might end up wanting to stay pure.

[Glitch]

Sleep is cheaper to cast, and forces offensive stance, which is important. Many things you can't hit with your AS if they roll around in defensive.

That said, I'm sure immolate would do a decent job... but without fire lore I dunno.

[Suppressed Poet]

Skimming through this thread, a couple of things occured to me about the subject of warmages at cap. Keep in mind I have never played a capped character so everything you read past this point are mere inexperienced opinions of an ignorant bastard...

On whether it could work at cap... I'd have to say yes. If you have a crazy budget for a 10x hard hitter to gap the AS bridge, you can make it work. Theoreticaly, you could under the same logic make a pure hunting style warrior work. The point being, from what I've witnessed, it's not that hard to get to the stage of saying that you willed your way towards making X mutant build survive in a narrowly specific and gimped way.

Based on the discussion, it seems like the ideas are to spend more tps to get some cman ranks, use a disable spells for extra help, rely on spell ranks and lores to squeeze out AS, get some heavier type armor, and of course the foundation being hasted melee attacks with a weapon that hits like a Mac truck. Hmmm...that sounds very similar to another profession that has all those components in a core mainstream build that has the TP costs much lower. So I guess the question is why would anyone want to spend a crazy ammount of time, effort, and silvers to make their pure hunt this way when even a mediocre geared/skilled/stated bard would acomplish those same goals better?

[Sygil81]

Only the first hit of Boil Earth is affected by fire lore. The rest are based on Earth Lore.

I was actually talking about the hits per target, not the number of targets it hits. When I cast boil, I have a high chance of hitting 2 times for 10 damage. Wooo!

[Sygil81]

I have no experience in warcamps so I can't speak to that part.

CMAN TRIP was pretty much all I had to use up until Bowels & maybe Minotaurs, at which point I started adding 909 and 501 to start the fight. They stance up when they stand, so it's nice to have a way to impose RT, stancing, and re-knocking-over at the same time.

Yeah, that's why I use tremors, cause they stance when they stand. most critters' stand is timed to get knocked over again by tremors, aside from either really slow ones (like mammoths) or fast ones like bandits.

At 54, I do fine in warcamps. Gotta keep wizard shield up, cause the stray archer will ruin your face. Boil is fun against trolls. Tremor doesn't mess up the shroud too much.

[Glitch]

So I guess the question is why would anyone want to spend a crazy ammount of time, effort, and silvers to make their pure hunt this way when even a mediocre geared/skilled/stated bard would acomplish those same goals better?

Because a) leet RP, b) It's really not that hard, and c) It's extremely fun

Also those other professions can't enchant their own gear, if you're into that sort of thing.

[Sygil81]

Skimming through this thread, a couple of things occured to me about the subject of warmages at cap. Keep in mind I have never played a capped character so everything you read past this point are mere inexperienced opinions of an ignorant bastard...

On whether it could work at cap... I'd have to say yes. If you have a crazy budget for a 10x hard hitter to gap the AS bridge, you can make it work. Theoreticaly, you could under the same logic make a pure hunting style warrior work. The point being, from what I've witnessed, it's not that hard to get to the stage of saying that you willed your way towards making X mutant build survive in a narrowly specific and gimped way.

Based on the discussion, it seems like the ideas are to spend more tps to get some cman ranks, use a disable spells for extra help, rely on spell ranks and lores to squeeze out AS, get some heavier type armor, and of course the foundation being hasted melee attacks with a weapon that hits like a Mac truck. Hmmm...that sounds very similar to another profession that has all those components in a core mainstream build that has the TP costs much lower. So I guess the question is why would anyone want to spend a crazy ammount of time, effort, and silvers to make their pure hunt this way when even a mediocre geared/skilled/stated bard would acomplish those same goals better?

Because bards sing and images of rainbows dance in my head. They're a great class, I just could never wrap my head around playing a bard. Warmages get 1s rt a lot faster than bards, so I kinda got stuck in character.

Plus, to be different. I am a snowflake. Admire my difference.

http://yastrow.com/wp-content/uploads/unique-not-useful.jpg

[zzentar]

I am way late to this thread, but........
I wanted to see if a warmage was really viable.
so I made zentar in shattered. 2hw since born and he cant over hunt like a mage should be able.
But i have born gear, my weapon is a 500 coin 2hand sword at lvl 77. I just eblade them in my hunting routine.
by no means is he even noticeable other than the fact he hunts with 0x gear. my eblades last for about 4 hunts

[lordsmo]

Definitely viable with no expensive weapons. I use a 0x claid in OTF, and no enhancives other than my AG badge.

I'm recently capped. Was THW the whole way.


Gender: Male Age: 80 Expr: 7751856 Level: 100
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Constitution (CON): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Agility (AGI): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Aura (AUR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Logic (LOG): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Intuition (INT): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Wisdom (WIS): 98 (24) ... 98 (24)
Influence (INF): 81 (15) ... 81 (15)
Mana: 300 Silver: 0

Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Combat Maneuvers...................| 201 101
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 201 101
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 201 101
Magic Item Use.....................| 302 202
Spell Aiming.......................| 302 202
Harness Power......................| 200 100
Elemental Mana Control.............| 180 80
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 102 24
Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 96 22
Perception.........................| 150 50
Climbing...........................| 150 50
Swimming...........................| 150 50

Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 60

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 75

Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 67

With no enhancives other my AG badge I swing a 0x claid at 403 AS, and am easily killing everything in OTF. I will try the other hunting grounds eventually. I predict Nelemar and Plane 4 will be the same as OTF, and the scatter will be completely impossible, but we'll see. If you want to do this you definitely need 5 ranks of feint.

If I want to, I can run a higher AS since I have a 606-rechargeable, and a seemingly infinite supply of 211/215/606 scrolls. I have the BPs to add a couple more points of AS to the badge, but am waiting til the charges run out before I add any. I won't wear any enhancives unless I someday come across a nice high-end piece that goes with my look/RP.

While I have some better weapons which I sometimes play with, my daily hunting is with a 0x claid with a +22 flaring greatsword for backup/constructs.

So in conclusion, definitely viable all the way from 1 to 100. It is probably the most powerful build in the game for the first 50 levels, and remains a versatile and effective build after that. My post cap plans are something like what Glitch posted, basically an all-around build that can immolate and cut faces off, but it will take me a while to get there.

EDIT: Also, since the subject was mentioned, I will add that the only attack spells I cast are 415 and Cone of Lightning. Sometimes rapid fire hurl boulder for grizzled critters, since I still usually have a ton of mana left at the end of the bounty.

[SHAFT]

So I guess the question is why would anyone want to spend a crazy ammount of time, effort, and silvers to make their pure hunt this way when even a mediocre geared/skilled/stated bard would acomplish those same goals better?

Because bards run around frolicking while playing flutes and clarinets? Who's wants to be associated with that? Go wizard.

[AnticorRifling]

You should be viable post cap BUT viable doesn't mean most efficient, nor does it mean without struggle, it just means viable.

[Buckwheet]

Definitely viable with no expensive weapons. I use a 0x claid in OTF, and no enhancives other than my AG badge.

I'm recently capped. Was THW the whole way.


Gender: Male Age: 80 Expr: 7751856 Level: 100
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Constitution (CON): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Agility (AGI): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Aura (AUR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Logic (LOG): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Intuition (INT): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Wisdom (WIS): 98 (24) ... 98 (24)
Influence (INF): 81 (15) ... 81 (15)
Mana: 300 Silver: 0

Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Combat Maneuvers...................| 201 101
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 201 101
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 201 101
Magic Item Use.....................| 302 202
Spell Aiming.......................| 302 202
Harness Power......................| 200 100
Elemental Mana Control.............| 180 80
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 102 24
Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 96 22
Perception.........................| 150 50
Climbing...........................| 150 50
Swimming...........................| 150 50

Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 60

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 75

Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 67

With no enhancives other my AG badge I swing a 0x claid at 403 AS, and am easily killing everything in OTF. I will try the other hunting grounds eventually. I predict Nelemar and Plane 4 will be the same as OTF, and the scatter will be completely impossible, but we'll see. If you want to do this you definitely need 5 ranks of feint.

If I want to, I can run a higher AS since I have a 606-rechargeable, and a seemingly infinite supply of 211/215/606 scrolls. I have the BPs to add a couple more points of AS to the badge, but am waiting til the charges run out before I add any. I won't wear any enhancives unless I someday come across a nice high-end piece that goes with my look/RP.

While I have some better weapons which I sometimes play with, my daily hunting is with a 0x claid with a +22 flaring greatsword for backup/constructs.

So in conclusion, definitely viable all the way from 1 to 100. It is probably the most powerful build in the game for the first 50 levels, and remains a versatile and effective build after that. My post cap plans are something like what Glitch posted, basically an all-around build that can immolate and cut faces off, but it will take me a while to get there.

EDIT: Also, since the subject was mentioned, I will add that the only attack spells I cast are 415 and Cone of Lightning. Sometimes rapid fire hurl boulder for grizzled critters, since I still usually have a ton of mana left at the end of the bounty.

For those folks looking to do this can you post your attack "routines" since you said you don't cast many offensive spells?

[AnticorRifling]

For those folks looking to do this can you post your attack "routines" since you said you don't cast many offensive spells?

My attack routine was haste up at all times, shields up most of the time, knock the creature down (sleep, tremors, tonis, trip, whatever was best against the current target) smack it until it stopped wiggling (just like prom).

[lordsmo]

For those folks looking to do this can you post your attack "routines" since you said you don't cast many offensive spells?

I meant I don't cast "attack" spells, as in damage dealing spells very often. Setup/disabling spells are a core part of the hunting repertoire.

Against ithzir it's basically ewave, feint then attack until dead.

For griffins I wait until they attack and then attack until dead, throwing in a feint if necessary to prevent them from getting out of RT. If they screech me or whatever, haste keeps my RT manageable.

If an initiate has wall of force running I'll kill it with 415.

A seer with wall of force running is more annoying. I often just go kill other stuff for a minute and kill it on my next pass through. But if I'm impatient I'll use 530 to dispell them. Or sometimes 415, although it's less effective against their high TD. Or sometimes 917 (which I forgot to mention in my last post since I only really use it for this one niche application). Also, some of them are slightly hittable even with WOF up, in which case I can just swing a bunch of times until I get a lucky crit with the claid. They wear light armor so even tiny endrolls can be fatal.

Constructs same as ithzir: ewave, feint, attack til dead. I have a tiny SF script to switch weapons, since they can't be hit by my non-magical claid.

Also, I run 919 at all times, since there's constantly ithzir fading in while I'm in offensive stance.

I will say I'm a big believer that you need 5 ranks of feint, because creatures that are prone in defensive stance are completely unhittable most of the time. I used tremors much more than ewave throughout the earlier levels, but at the later levels I prefer ewave to keep the critters RT locked

[lordsmo]

For post cap goals, my plan is to get to 100 ranks of MjE so I can aim a claid in 1 second. At 101 CM and 0 ambush I'm sure I'll miss half the time, but if the RT's the same my swings might as well be aimed. As an interim goal, 78 ranks of MjE should allow me to aim a maul in 1 second I believe: (7 - 1 - 1 - 1)*(0.75 - 0.78/3) = 1.96, rounding down to 1. That'll also give me about 522 CS for immo, so I could add some fire lore next and have an "immo lite" build to go with it. But that's all about 2 million exp down the road still.

[Whirlin]

You'll also need... I think it's 20... ranks in Ambushing to be able to aim reliably. Otherwise you're looking at a fairly high chance of being unable to find an opening, and not even getting the AS roll... let alone hitting where you were aiming.

[Mtenda]

For post cap goals, my plan is to get to 100 ranks of MjE so I can aim a claid in 1 second. At 101 CM and 0 ambush I'm sure I'll miss half the time, but if the RT's the same my swings might as well be aimed. As an interim goal, 78 ranks of MjE should allow me to aim a maul in 1 second I believe: (7 - 1 - 1 - 1)*(0.75 - 0.78/3) = 1.96, rounding down to 1. That'll also give me about 522 CS for immo, so I could add some fire lore next and have an "immo lite" build to go with it. But that's all about 2 million exp down the road still.

In the meantime, how do you feel about cman precision? Worth it?

[Buckwheet]

I used precision all the time for the lance to get 100% crush.

[Whirlin]

Precision is most valuable if you're aiming your shots... As crushing is most effective against heads, Slashing to neck, and piercing to eyes.

You're already looking at 54 to master feint, 60 to master disarm, and then an additional 20 for precision. The two posting warmages have already shown to benefits of disarm and feint in their normal rotations.

If you already have the ambush ranks, It may be worth trading off rank 4 feint/disarm for precision... But, most warmage builds are built around just swinging as fast as you can, and less about getting that maximized chance of death-crit while swinging.

It's pretty far post-cap before you need to worry about picking up precision, and at that point, it's kinda moot, because you're already comfortable hunting whatever with ease.

[lordsmo]

You'll also need... I think it's 20... ranks in Ambushing to be able to aim reliably. Otherwise you're looking at a fairly high chance of being unable to find an opening, and not even getting the AS roll... let alone hitting where you were aiming.

Could be. I'll figure it out when I get there. I feel like the occasional 1 second lost to a failure to find an opening will be offset by the increase in death crits leading to an overall increase in lethality, but I'm just guessing at this point. I suppose I could try it with a 1-second aimed katana for now.

[Mtenda]

Precision is most valuable if you're aiming your shots... As crushing is most effective against heads, Slashing to neck, and piercing to eyes.

You're already looking at 54 to master feint, 60 to master disarm, and then an additional 20 for precision. The two posting warmages have already shown to benefits of disarm and feint in their normal rotations.

If you already have the ambush ranks, It may be worth trading off rank 4 feint/disarm for precision... But, most warmage builds are built around just swinging as fast as you can, and less about getting that maximized chance of death-crit while swinging.

It's pretty far post-cap before you need to worry about picking up precision, and at that point, it's kinda moot, because you're already comfortable hunting whatever with ease.

Precision doesn't work with aimed attacks unfortunately.

[lordsmo]

In the meantime, how do you feel about cman precision? Worth it?

I could see it being useful for a lance-wielding mage against things that are puncture resistant, but for me as a THW user I haven't ever used it. My CMANs are:

5 ranks feint
3 ranks disarm
3 ranks cunning defnse
1 rank subdual strike

[Whirlin]

Precision doesn't work with aimed attacks unfortunately.
Damn... didn't read the CMAN that closely... No wonder I didn't pick it up on my Bard...

I'd still say it's relevance and strength is very subjective to what you're hunting and what you're swinging. Creatures have been so normalized over the last 5 years that the different weapon types don't vary AS much as they did once upon a time. I think they completely removed piercing immunity... I'd sooner just move to a new hunting ground than spend CMAN points on it to overcome the weakness... Or if you're just using a e-bladed weapon, you can just pick up a different weapon. ie: Maul instead of a two-handed sword.

[sentral]

lets not forget that a a good warmage should always have a huge assortment of scrolls. Which should include Bravery, Heroism, Benediction, and Pheons Strength to name a few. I'am a warmage and i'am never without bravery when hunting at the least.

[Buckwheet]

1605 is wonderful to use as well. Increasing the DF of lance is pretty epic.

[Mtenda]

Damn... didn't read the CMAN that closely... No wonder I didn't pick it up on my Bard...

I'd still say it's relevance and strength is very subjective to what you're hunting and what you're swinging. Creatures have been so normalized over the last 5 years that the different weapon types don't vary AS much as they did once upon a time. I think they completely removed piercing immunity... I'd sooner just move to a new hunting ground than spend CMAN points on it to overcome the weakness... Or if you're just using a e-bladed weapon, you can just pick up a different weapon. ie: Maul instead of a two-handed sword.

Word. I was just wondering how beneficial it is for a capped warmage. I have a 39 warmage that uses it but mostly because he doesn't need anything else yet so I'm just maximizing his attack as much as possible.

I remember when precision first came out and they actually didn't note that it won't work with aimed attacks. I was excited and quickly fixskilled my blunt and board rogue to sword and bored thinking that I'd be able to use a falchion or handaxe with the same efficiency as my mace. I ended up being very disappointed and the GM I talked to wouldn't give me another fixskill.

<ambush GM head

He didn't die cause my falchion did slash damage and I got randomized down to a rank 5.....Damnit!

[Glitch]

Word. I was just wondering how beneficial it is for a capped warmage. I have a 39 warmage that uses it but mostly because he doesn't need anything else yet so I'm just maximizing his attack as much as possible.

It's cool in theory, but in practice it doesn't help all that much. You're generally relying on raw damage to kill your targets. Crits are nice, but taking 2-3 extra 1 second swings isn't that big of a deal. I feel that other disable/setup CMAN skills are much more helpful.

[lordsmo]

The other thing is that for unaimed shots, puncture is actually more lethal than crush, and has a higher chance of causing a knockdown. As for slash vs. crush, crush has the edge in lethality at the lower end of the spectrum, with slash having the advantage at the higher end.

Here's a table of crit-kill probability vs. max crit (max crit being the critical rank you generate prior to randomization). The effects of critical randomization are accounted for in these values.

The "random" column is the crit-kill probability for unaimed shots.


pK Slash Crush Puncture
Mx crit Head Eye Random Head Eye Random Head Eye Random
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.33333 0.01767
5 0 0.33333 0.01767 0.33333 0 0.042 0 0.66667 0.03533
6 0.25 0.5 0.058 0.5 0 0.063 0.25 0.75 0.07125
7 0.5 0.75 0.10275 0.75 0.25 0.10775 0.5 1 0.116
8 0.6 0.8 0.1918 0.8 0.4 0.1664 0.6 1 0.2024
9 0.8 1 0.3014 1 0.6 0.276 0.8 1 0.3014


My other assertion - that puncture causes more knockdowns - can be proved by simple inspection of the critical tables on Krakiipedia.

[Buckwheet]

I am pretty sure I did it for non-corporeal undead and Kiramon.

[lordsmo]

I am pretty sure I did it for non-corporeal undead and Kiramon.

Yeah, puncture resistant creatures are the main application for precision.

[Sygil81]

Yeah, puncture resistant creatures are the main application for precision.

Interesting about the precision and puncture resistant critters, I hadn't even considered it.

Halberd DF sucks, but a high enchant naginata could be another way to get past high DS values. Against chain and plate, it's a wash, but on lighter armors you have +15 to +12. ... Meh, only reason I use a nagi right now is because I won't be able to 1second rt a lance until 63. Likely it'll be lance all the way, but a 10x nagi is like a 12x-13x weapon. Get some flares? :D

[Whirlin]

Interesting about the precision and puncture resistant critters, I hadn't even considered it.

Halberd DF sucks, but a high enchant naginata could be another way to get past high DS values. Against chain and plate, it's a wash, but on lighter armors you have +15 to +12. ... Meh, only reason I use a nagi right now is because I won't be able to 1second rt a lance until 63. Likely it'll be lance all the way, but a 10x nagi is like a 12x-13x weapon. Get some flares? :D

Even with Nagi's AvD advantage, the DF on it sucks... I think I calculated a 10x Naginata to only be superior to a 6x lance on endrolls of under 160 or so.

[Geijon Khyree]

Oddball here, but my Warmage is sword and board with a longsword. Could swap to a Falchion, but I usually use flaring weaponry currently.

[Glitch]

Lance DF is just so huge that it makes up for lack of AS. You don't need much of an endroll to do decent damage. If you can find a perfect or semi-perfect forged steel one and e-blade it, you're golden.

[Glitch]

Oddball here, but my Warmage is sword and board with a longsword. Could swap to a Falchion, but I usually use flaring weaponry currently.

I tried TWC for a while just for the hell of it. It works, it's pretty fun, but it wasn't nealy as effective. Impressive display though, swinging a bastard sword and a waraxe at the same time in 1 second. :)

[Aluvius]

Its sad, but I just realized after I didn't recognize an immolation cast how many spells I've never even bothered to try once with my wizard. I also remembered that when I came back I had forgot about pure potions and hunted my warmage from 42-53 without them lol. :)

As for cman TRIP, if not using a polearm do THW folks here macro swapping to a runestaff/quarterstaff to use it? I guess a blessed one would work on undead that are corporeal (assuming it won't work on non corp)?

What weapons would ya'll want to make into a blink weapon for your warmage. I have a +17 expert damage weighted mattock or a 6x perfect greataxe or a 1x claid that I'd do. Hmm, either use 501 or 901 I guess or perhaps another bolt spell depending on the critter. Do ball spells work since they aren't technically aoe?

Sorry for the ramble but its a slow day at work and I'm daydreaming of warmaging heh. Of course with this game I enjoy thinking up builds more than I do actually playing them. :)

[Glitch]

Its sad, but I just realized after I didn't recognize an immolation cast how many spells I've never even bothered to try once with my wizard. I also remembered that when I came back I had forgot about pure potions and hunted my warmage from 42-53 without them lol. :)

As for cman TRIP, if not using a polearm do THW folks here macro swapping to a runestaff/quarterstaff to use it? I guess a blessed one would work on undead that are corporeal (assuming it won't work on non corp)?

What weapons would ya'll want to make into a blink weapon for your warmage. I have a +17 expert damage weighted mattock or a 6x perfect greataxe or a 1x claid that I'd do. Hmm, either use 501 or 901 I guess or perhaps another bolt spell depending on the critter. Do ball spells work since they aren't technically aoe?

Sorry for the ramble but its a slow day at work and I'm daydreaming of warmaging heh. Of course with this game I enjoy thinking up builds more than I do actually playing them. :)

Ball spells still require you to hit the stupid thing, at least for the main damage. Maybe they splash without a hit, not sure on that. My philosophy has always been that if you're going to be a warmage, be a warmage. Use those Spell Aiming points in something that will help your main weapon choice. CM, Physical, Weapon, extra spells, etc. I know lots of warmages train spell aiming for an alternative, but I found that you don't limit your options that much (except undead, in which case you can get pure potions, clerics, voln...), and it's really nice to have 6/3 extra per level to pad out the expensive shit.

[Gilralyn]

However I just joined Sunfist so I think I might want to keep bolting until I can get AS from the society signs.

Try out fire anything in a troll camp and you might end up wanting to stay pure.

I thought you recently switched to Voln. That didn't work out for you?

[Whirlin]

Ball spells still require you to hit the stupid thing, at least for the main damage. Maybe they splash without a hit, not sure on that. My philosophy has always been that if you're going to be a warmage, be a warmage. Use those Spell Aiming points in something that will help your main weapon choice. CM, Physical, Weapon, extra spells, etc. I know lots of warmages train spell aiming for an alternative, but I found that you don't limit your options that much (except undead, in which case you can get pure potions, clerics, voln...), and it's really nice to have 6/3 extra per level to pad out the expensive shit.

It's also a giant waste of mana if you're going to use 513 to actually bring your spell AS to something that's worthwhile, and then cancel it when you decide to swing again. I'd echo Glitch's comment... Use the additional TP towards more spell research if you're already doing CMAN, Weapon, etc... Get that CS up rather than trying to have an alternative attack style with bolts. If you want to do something that can bolt and use physical attacks effectively... that's Archery.

[lordsmo]

I was 2x spell aim the entire way. It has a couple of niche applications, but is not necessary.

In the Maghara Tower, the dhu goleras and moulis have such a low DS that you can run 513 and still easily kill them with your weapon, allowing you to kill shrickens with bolts and not have to find a bless. This is the only area I tested this in, but it's possible it might work elsewhere.

In Gossamer Valley I would use 908 frequently without running 513. The morphs and slushes can't be disabled with spells, so if there was a swarm I would cast 909 to disable any madrinols, then use 908 to kill the slushes safely from (efffectively) stance guarded, then stance dance the extremely slow morphs and finish the madrinols last. It typically took 3 casts of 908 to kill a slush. I chose 908 over 906 due the vulnerability of these creatures to fire. The splash crit would typically be 50-90 damage which, at the low endrolls I was generating, was enough to outweigh the DF advantage of 906.

In the Bowels I would rapid fire 510 (again without 513) to kill grizzled elementals. With the swarms of illoke in there spawning with stone fist already prepped, you can't just ewave the illoke and then take care of the elemental while they're prone, since greater elementals, especially grizzled ones, can take a good 10 claid hits to take down, and the illoke will cast at you from prone as soon as their RT wears off. But you can't really kill the illoke first since the elemental won't typically fall down to ewave. The regular greater elementals I could knock down with 415, solving the issue, but the grizzled ones have an immense TD so I found that rapid fire 510 was the best way to kill them instantly and escape.

Cone of lighting is useful in a variety of areas, even with a weak AS. The DF is gigantic and it hits everything in the room for 18 mana.

Lastly, I have on a few sporadic occasions enjoyed running 513 and just hunting with bolts for a fun change of pace. My bolt AS with 513 up is about 20 less than a normal wizard. I like this versatility.

I'm sure there's other stuff I'm forgetting. Anyway, spell aim as a warmage is not necessary and can be done away with if you want to spend the points elsewhere. Personally, however, I am glad I trained in it.

EDIT: Also Whirlin, your idea of trading spell aim for more CS/DS via increased spell training is sound, and I considered it at several points. Never ended up pulling the trigger, but it could definitely be worthwhile. Personal preference I suppose.

[Jace Solo]

Oddball here, but my Warmage is sword and board with a longsword. Could swap to a Falchion, but I usually use flaring weaponry currently.

You Greysleeve?

[Aluvius]

I thought you recently switched to Voln. That didn't work out for you?

No, not on my warmage. I was dark elf col and just thought maybe I could try sunfist out since I have a society reset if needed.

[Aluvius]

It's also a giant waste of mana if you're going to use 513 to actually bring your spell AS to something that's worthwhile, and then cancel it when you decide to swing again. I'd echo Glitch's comment... Use the additional TP towards more spell research if you're already doing CMAN, Weapon, etc... Get that CS up rather than trying to have an alternative attack style with bolts. If you want to do something that can bolt and use physical attacks effectively... that's Archery.

Oh I think ya'll misunderstood me, I was just spitballing about what spell a warmage would most want in a blink weapon. I was asking if ball spells worked with blink weapons since they're not technically aoe. I doubt it.

That being said, yeah I debated back and forth with 2x AS. I kept it with my older warmage, but I dropped it when I made a new warmage in plat and shattered. I agree that you can probably just leave it out altogether, though if 907/908 splashed normally with a blink weapon that it might be worth it. :)

[Tenlaar]

Has anybody tried out a blink weapon with sleep in it? I'm curious if it would count as a 1 mana spell for flare rate purposes, and how often it would end up flaring. That'd end a fight quick like.

ETA: Bite me.

[Methais]

Has anybody tried out a blink weapon with sleep in it? I'm curious if it would could as a 1 mana spell for flare rate purposes, and how much it would end up flaring. That'd end a fight quick fight.

This post appears to be full of accidentally.