DS Pushdown shooting from hiding

[cwolff]

My ranged ranger is 2x ranged, 2x perception and 1x ambush at lvl 41.

Am I losing power shooting from hiding since both perception and ambush ranks are taken into account? Would he be better off just shooting from the open all the time?

Is there a DS pushdown with firing while hidden?

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

Yes and Yes.

You should be doubling in Ambush if you wish to fire from hiding. DS Pushdown shifts depending on the level of the target vs your level.

I find that open aimed firing is faster but you're less protected.

READ: http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?49785-quot-The-Art-of-the-Bow-quot-GSIV-Archery-Guide

[Ryvicke]

I wouldn't say you're losing power by sniping, depending on your level you may be losing a very small fraction of your aiming ability. If you hunt self-spelled or without great equipment there are a few areas in the game where sniping is going to come in handy but not enough. I keep it around for easy-mode in warcamps.

Also: if there is a DS pushdown from sniping my mind is blown.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

There is totally a DS pushdown. Hundreds of minotaurs can attest to that.

[Parkbandit]

Camouflage is the reason to be a ranged ranger IMO.. why would you not take advantage of a +30AS?

[Nieninque]

Camouflage is the reason to be a ranged ranger IMO.. why would you not take advantage of a +30AS?
^Thiss

[Manamethis]

It only gives the +30 AS if you can remain in hiding. Stalking and hiding is expensive!

[Ryvicke]

There is totally a DS pushdown. Hundreds of minotaurs can attest to that.

Post some shots up? Just doing a site:gsplayers.com Google search it looks like there are about 6 threads in this with people saying there is no pushdown and that there is. A few things were posted but no conclusion. Neither krakii nor The Art of the Bow have anything confirming or denying.

It can be difficult cause technically AMBUSH pushdown isn't a DS pushdown, it's a stance pushdown, so you'd need to shoot at something that wasn't in offensive to see it happen. From my experience, which is only from warcamps, I can't remember ever feeling like there is a stance pushdown for sniping, but I guess usually I shoot shit in the eye and it dies, warchiefs are the one thing I'd think I'd see a stance pushdown on and I don't recall it ever happening.

[Riltus]

A warrior guild member (Rank 6 tricks) could APPRAISE creature before and after the shot for stance determination.

Mark

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

This is after it swings at me. So it goes offensive.

You nock a wooden arrow in your oak composite bow.
You fire a wooden arrow at a krag yeti!
AS: +412 vs DS: +278 with AvD: +24 + d100 roll: +62 = +220
... and hit for 74 points of damage!
Strike through eye, the krag yeti is lobotomized!
[You have earned 20 prestige points.]

The krag yeti collapses to the ground and shudders once before finally going still.
The scintillating red light surrounding the arrow fades some.
The wooden arrow sticks in a krag yeti's left eye!
Roundtime: 4 sec.

This is from hiding and it hadn't seen me at all.

You remove a single wooden arrow from a bundle of wooden arrows.
>fire my bow at yet
You nock a wooden arrow in your oak composite bow.
You fire a wooden arrow at a krag yeti!
AS: +402 vs DS: +288 with AvD: +24 + d100 roll: +73 = +211
... and hit for 61 points of damage!
Incredible shot to the eye penetrates deep into skull!
[You have earned 35 prestige points.]

The krag yeti collapses to the ground and shudders once before finally going still.
The scintillating red light surrounding the arrow fades some.
The wooden arrow sticks in a krag yeti's left eye!
Roundtime: 4 sec.

This is me shooting from the open before it has a chance to swing at me.

>You nock a wooden arrow in your oak composite bow.
You fire a wooden arrow at a krag yeti!
AS: +402 vs DS: +347 with AvD: +24 + d100 roll: +14 = +93
A clean miss.
The wooden arrow zips past its target to the ground.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

You're probably right. Its stance pushdown from ambushing. The numbers don't all match up though. the DS is lower. That's all I was thinking. Been a while since I swung anything at anything.

[Catts]

30 As doesn't exactly equate to average damage done per second, depends what you're hunting I guess, but I find hiding to be a pain in ass...and if I need AS, jsut 117, or leg shot, then camo

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

30 As doesn't exactly equate to average damage done per second, depends what you're hunting I guess, but I find hiding to be a pain in ass...and if I need AS, jsut 117, or leg shot, then camo

Fuckin word. I find open aiming is superior anyway. I almost never hide and shoot. I haven't had to do it out of necessity except when Magus show up.

[Parkbandit]

Fuckin word. I find open aiming is superior anyway. I almost never hide and shoot. I haven't had to do it out of necessity except when Magus show up.

Granted.. I'm just getting back into the game after a long absence... but if I'm hunting like level stuff that isn't extremely perceptive, I'll just camo, kill the 3-4 that are in that room, skin them all and loot everything.

I generally hunt with self cast only (fucking Methais is selfish with his spells).. and only FGB as armor.. so hunting is still dangerous (as I've died 5-6 times since my return). I would be picked apart hunting from open I think.

[cwolff]

...site:gsplayers.com Google search it looks like there are about 6 threads in this with people saying there is no pushdown and that there is. A few things were posted but no conclusion. Neither krakii nor The Art of the Bow have anything confirming or denying.

It can be difficult cause technically AMBUSH pushdown isn't a DS pushdown, it's a stance pushdown, so you'd need to shoot at something that wasn't in offensive to see it happen. From my experience, which is only from warcamps, I can't remember ever feeling like there is a stance pushdown for sniping, but I guess usually I shoot shit in the eye and it dies, warchiefs are the one thing I'd think I'd see a stance pushdown on and I don't recall it ever happening.


That's the crux of the problem. NO ONE knows. From what Ninja posted there was no pushdown in that sample. Maybe this is why it's not listed as a benefit in the "Art of the Bow".

I hear so many people talk about how OP snipers are. You'll often hear things like, "I just one shot kill 80% of the time","I don't even play my sniper because it's boring since he's so OP.", etc... I hear it on LNET, IG and just about everywhere.

Personally I'm not seeing it. Granted I'm at 1x ambush but over all (with enhanced wrist guards) I'm only losing 3 AS at this level and I maxxed DEX early so I'm not losing any AS against someone with reasonable stats for growth. From the open or from hiding I can one shot kill, but I can also fire a dozen arrows to bring down one stubborn creature.

Even if you do hit the eyeball 100% (which no one can) of the time, 40% of the eye crits are not fatal. You also have to get a favorable die roll to boost your crits up into the fatal range. This doesn't take into account uphunting because the ability to one shot kill drops off dramatically as your level differential changes.

Maybe I'll fixskills to a sniper build and see how it works.


I generally hunt with self cast only (fucking Methais is selfish with his spells).. and only FGB as armor.. so hunting is still dangerous (as I've died 5-6 times since my return). I would be picked apart hunting from open I think.

Once you get back into the game and knock the rust off you'll be doing much better. With the FGB you're +18 ds with heavy crit padding and it's pretty easy to get at least +80 AS. The creatures we fight are in 0x gear. I'd think that your only real dangerous like level challenge will be bandit maneuvers.

[Whirlin]

Serious question though... and not just pushing my bow... but what race are you with Max Dex, and what kind of bow are you using? The threshold for being in the crit kill range isn't that high if you're hitting the eye...

[cwolff]

Dark Elf.

Please keep in mind I'm not complaining. He's a bad ass archer and I'm using either the BSC Long Bow or a 6x Long Bow, with ebladed or 5x fletched arrows and +8 ranged ranks enhancives.

I'm dumbfounded by the people who go on and on about how OP ranged is, so I'm trying to figure out what I am missing. I don't believe going form 1x to 2x ambush is going to make that big a difference. Minus enhancives I'd only gain 3 AS. I've also noticed that if you don't get that crit kill on the first shot it gets more difficult to get that kill and you can end up bleeding it out through HP damage. I think the OP camp glosses over those kills as an anomaly.

I think what makes most people think that there is DS pushdown is that Bolt DS is low. Sniping is not any better for your attacks in regards to pushdown but does have the benefit of keeping you alive longer and by 2x ambush you are getting +1 AS every 2 levels.

[Whirlin]

Bows simply ARE one of the most overpowered attack forms in Gemstone right now. There's really no debate over it.

Slashing: Lowest Fatal Crit: Rank 6 Head, Rank 6 Neck, Rank 5 Eye
Crush: Rank 5 Head, Rank 7 Eye,
Puncture: Rank 4 Eye.

Lets Compare it to spellcasters:
Lightning: Rank 6 Eye, Rank 6 Neck, Rank 6 Head
Fire: Rank 6 Head, Rank 6 Neck, Rank 7 eye
Acid: 6/6/6
Impact: 5/5/7

In short... it has the lowest Fatal Crit Tier by approximately 20%.

Furthermore, Perception, as far as training options go, is ridiculously advantageous for a required skill to train in. I recommend everyone already be 1x in Perception, so the 2x isn't much of an increased cost over what you should be doing anyway

Your RT isn't effected by Encumbrance, which is huge... You can be a packrat, all it influences if your aiming accuracy

Ranged DS is widely lower than conventional AS, even though AS growth is on par, if not better than Melee AS growth. 2x perception and 2x ambush is the same as being a full 2x in Combat Maneuvers for a melee from an AS growth perspective.

Ranged Weapons are CHEAPER than Melee Weapons. You only NEED a 5x bow to get a full +50 AS bonus. Although a 7x bow would also give you +10 DS, and make you not need to worry about fletched arrows...


I really don't know how you can possibly say that ranged is not the most powerful attack form at the moment. All the numbers are HIGHLY stacked in its' favor.

[Whirlin]

Ohh... another thing I forgot is that bows and archery weapons were confirmed to receive the phantom DEX damage when it comes to determining critical tiers... That means that the rank 4 is even easier to obtain from a rolling perspective.

(DEX bonus / 4) = Phantom damage added to determine critical tier. Not all weapons obtain this bonus, but Bows do... That just double dips on the effectiveness of DEX for the weapon, and compiles it's relative strengths.

[cwolff]

Ranged is powerful. No doubt about that.

What I'm questioning is the SNIPER build specifically. Is the sniper so much more OP than a non-hiding ranged user? I'm trying to find out what makes the sniper so much better than shooting from the open. Sounds like there is no DS pushdown or mechanics benefit to hiding.

[Sile]

Couldn't you just test the ds pushdown on a PC?

Edit: Snipers advantage to me was survivability. If your not at serious risk of dying, open aiming is more efficient.

[cwolff]

I'm hunting right now and watching the DS. Not seeing any change between shooting from hiding or from the open. Open is almost better because they take a shot at me and get into offensive.

[Whirlin]

Sniper build is only more effective as a Ranger due to the 608 mechanics, and keeping the +AS bonus. but if you don't have the points to even 2x in ambush, you're better off bipassing the stalking and hiding and picking up 2x ambush for the AS.

[cwolff]

I need the s/h for UCS. Someday I may go with a straight sniper build someday at least for a while just to have fun with it. So far the UCS/Ranged build is just too versatile to give it up.

[Ryvicke]

Sniper build, as a ranger, does not require 2x ambush. 613 makes up for it. Saying it's only useful because of 608 is not exactly accurate. I don't want to add 3 seconds of RT all the time and hitting eyes doesn't require 30 more AS, it's about not ever taking an AS/DS resolution in a camp, or never being in the open for a mino disarm.

[Whirlin]

Sniper build, as a ranger, does not require 2x ambush. 613 makes up for it. Saying it's only useful because of 608 is not exactly accurate. I don't want to add 3 seconds of RT all the time and hitting eyes doesn't require 30 more AS, it's about not ever taking an AS/DS resolution in a camp, or never being in the open for a mino disarm.
You're right about 608, however, that is a BIG draw to a ranger sniper build relative to an open build. I'm not sure what the alternative to 3 seconds is that you're referring to, isn't hiding minimum RT 2 seconds with Smastery? Even then, I definitely wouldn't prioritize Combat Maneuvers training for an archer ranger, I wouldn't anticipate unlocking it until mid 50s, and even then, I'd question why.

Not sure how you can say that 613 makes up for it when they're not mutually exclusive. That's like saying that a 4x HCW weapon is good enough, when the alternatives are a 6x weapon or a 6x HCW. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to maximize your potential.

Speaking of maximizing potential, I'm not sure why you would spend the points on two weapon styles, and then say that one isn't as effective as you'd like... It's like someone I was speaking to earlier said his damage wasn't as high as he'd like, but he refuses to use a OHE bigger than a rapier for RP reasons...

[cwolff]

Speaking of maximizing potential, I'm not sure why you would spend the points on two weapon styles, and then say that one isn't as effective as you'd like...

Nobody on this thread said that.

[m444w]

You're right about 608, however, that is a BIG draw to a ranger sniper build relative to an open build. I'm not sure what the alternative to 3 seconds is that you're referring to, isn't hiding minimum RT 2 seconds with Smastery? Even then, I definitely wouldn't prioritize Combat Maneuvers training for an archer ranger, I wouldn't anticipate unlocking it until mid 50s, and even then, I'd question why.

Not sure how you can say that 613 makes up for it when they're not mutually exclusive. That's like saying that a 4x HCW weapon is good enough, when the alternatives are a 6x weapon or a 6x HCW. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to maximize your potential.

Speaking of maximizing potential, I'm not sure why you would spend the points on two weapon styles, and then say that one isn't as effective as you'd like... It's like someone I was speaking to earlier said his damage wasn't as high as he'd like, but he refuses to use a OHE bigger than a rapier for RP reasons...

Rapiers are one of the most underrated weapons in gs. Your friend is doing it wrong.

[Fallen]

Rapiers are one of the most underrated weapons in gs. Your friend is doing it wrong.

Why is a rapier superior to a dagger or short sword?

[m444w]

Why is a rapier superior to a dagger or short sword?

When strictly limiting yourself to smaller weapons, they each have their respective places. Rapiers are great for chain and middling AsG using creatures if you are uphunting slightly and dont have the pop on your dagger attacks to one-shot stuff.

Rapiers also have a longer reach for less rt than shortswords.

I am a particularly big fan of shortsword/rapier, rapier/dagger, or rapier/rapier combos since my character only uses shortsword or smaller weapons.

Here is me using a rapier in my 40's : http://forum.gsplayers.com/archive/index.php/t-33874.html

It's really only gotten better with age and more ambush/cman training. granted in the log im also using a very nice rapier, but I only invested in that after I found them so effective.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

I need the s/h for UCS. Someday I may go with a straight sniper build someday at least for a while just to have fun with it. So far the UCS/Ranged build is just too versatile to give it up.

It is a good build. I gave it a shot, then realized I could almost triple in dodging and pump more into perception instead...

[Asrial]

Testing on creatures is the worst possible thing you could do. You can't control them and there's a lot of hidden variables you don't see (such as their stance which doesn't operate like a player stance (at least someone without the stance cman's)).

Relying on my experience with my archer.. it's a stance pushdown. The reason no one knows for sure is because it's irrelevant to know which it is, and on first glance doesn't seem easy to 'really' test it.

A simple test...

Put someone in defensive.. shoot them from the open and then from hiding. Next, put them in offensive.. shoot them from the open and then from hiding. There shouldn't (watch me have to eat my words here) be any DS change in the offensive test. Or maybe there's just something in the system that they won't lose any DS because they're in offensive, who knows :P

Regarding aiming...

"The current evaluation formula uses Ambush and Perception in an equal amount if the shooter is hidden, or Peception only if the shooter is in the open. This simulates the ambusher's ability to find a "better spot" to shoot from by using his ambush skill to approach the target with stealth. Added to the two [or one] skills is the user's ranks in Ranged Weapons, but to a lesser degree [probably half the consideration as the other skills]. This simulates the natural progression of becoming a better aimer through practice with the weapon alone." -- Banthis in 1999 (as far as I know this hasn't been changed)

The way I read this statement is like this...

100 ranks of perception and 50 ranks of ambush...

100 ranks of perception are used from the open = 100 ranks of skills

50 ranks of perception and 50 ranks of ambush are used from hiding = 100 ranks of skills

So I suspect the only way to short change yourself is to have one skill less than half of the other (40 ranks of ambush would make it 80 ranks of skills in the hidden scenario).

[Astru]

I've also noticed that if you don't get that crit kill on the first shot it gets more difficult to get that kill and you can end up bleeding it out through HP damage. I think the OP camp glosses over those kills as an anomaly.

I apologize if anyone else pointed this out, but I was reading recently (it might have been on the official forums) and someone suggested that if you fail to crit kill in the eye, you just damage that eye and make it no longer a target-able area. It's silly (because an empty eye socket should be just as good a target), but I've found that if I switch to aiming at the other eye, I can usually take out the creature with one more shot to the eye.

Well, unless I just destroy the other eye, then it's onto brute force (or in principle, I think aiming for the neck is the next best bet for crits).