New Archer Wizard - Crossbow?

[Haldrik]

I'm thinking about using a crossbow on my new archer wizard. I figure with haste the Cocking is negligible.

Any advice?

Thanks.

[TheEschaton]

Crossbows require kneeling to be awesome, don't they? I suppose with Haste constantly running, you can get the cocking down to 1s, but idk. I never liked crossbows on my ranger warrior.

[BriarFox]

Crossbows suck all around. Not only are they slower than bows, they have a DS penalty. Just use a composite bow or whatever you can fire in 1 second.

[SHAFT]

Don't do crossbows. Kneeling is just stupid. Grab a composite or a longbow.

I hear whirlin has a bow for sale.....

[Fallen]

Whirlin's guide shows the disparity of ranged AS throughout the 1-100 level range. The Xbow would do a lot to negate that loss,so I happen to think it could be worthwhile. You'd have to ask a capped wizard who uses bows whether the extra +30 would be worth the hassle in places like the Scatter and the like.

[lordsmo]

I thought it was only +30 for kneeling?

[Haldrik]

Hmmmm. I feel like if im grabbing a composite bow im wasting haste since theoretically im only dropping it down from 4 sec to 1 second. (aimed + 40 str + longbow).

I heard crossbows have an inherent aim bonus, plus whatever I can get, e.g. sephir / or ipantor. Not to mention crossbows are dirt cheap.

So potentially with a crossbow I would be looking at:

1 sec fire time, 1 sec cock time --- versus 1 second fire time (long bow)

So really, almost 100% more arrows using a longbow. Hmmm... so a crossbow AIM bonus would need to increase killing speed by about double to make up for the 50% shots being fired.

Not to mention the DS pushdown from XBOW.

[SHAFT]

Talk to Middian too. He's the resident crossbow expert.

[SHAFT]

"I always hated crossbows, take too long to load!"

―Yoren's last words

[Fallen]

I thought it was only +30 for kneeling?

You're right. I don't know where I got +50 from.



Kneeling bonusWhile firing a crossbow, kneeling adds +30 to attack strength (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Attack_strength).

[BriarFox]

You're right. I don't know where I got +50 from.

Bonus used to be 50, actually.

[Sile]

Bonus used to be 50, actually.

Yeah. Aparently xbows were too awesome before.

[Middian]

I am a little biased when it comes to crossbows because I use a speed crossbow (Max light, 6x, HCW (sighted), speed sephwir crossbow). But I will break the crossbows down as best as I can.

Regular crossbow: (add an additional 1 second of haste if you are a wizard with 24 ranks of air lore)

Non-aiming: 5 second cocking, 2 second firing
Aiming: 5 second cocking, 3 second firing
Non-aiming: (hasted) 3 second cocking, 1 second firing)
Aiming: (hasted) 3 second cocking, 1 second firing

Positives:
• Aiming bonus is applied while kneeling
• +30 AS when kneeling
• Good AvD and DF

Negatives:
• Small races need high strength to cock
• Remain in offensive stance when cocking
• Kneeling causes more DS loss
• Less DS when compared to bows
• Cocking pulls you out of hiding

Speed crossbow: (add an additional 1 second of haste if you are a wizard with 24+ ranks of air lore)

Non-aiming 3 second cocking, 2 second firing
Aiming 3 second cocking, 3 sec shot
Non-aiming (hasted) 1 second cock, 1 second firing
Aiming (hasted) 1 second cocking, 1 second firing

Positives:
• Aiming bonus is applied while kneeling
• Any race cocks at a base of 3 seconds
• User can go into defensive stance while cocking (less exposed offensive time)
• Does not pull you out of hiding when cocking
• +30 AS while kneeling
• Good AvD and DF

Negatives:
• Kneeling causes more DS loss (unless coupled with combat mobility)
• Less DS when compared to bows

Additional side notes:

The kneeling +30 AS bonus works well when coupled with the cman skill combat mobility. With this skill you will not take the kneeling defensive hit, every time a critter swings at you, it will cause you to stand.

I found that kneeling will also aid when facing critters that “shake the ground” causing players to fall lying down. Critters such as giants, mammoths, and Illokes will be unable to knock you down with their stomps and shakes while kneeling.

As a wizard you will be able to eblade your bolts for 4x flaring ammunition.

A third option you might want to consider are dual crossbows. They are more money than regular crossbows, but they are not as much as speed xbows. This allows you to shoot 2 shots instead of one, but they have the same negatives as a regular crossbow. I use a script for my 6x dual heavy crossbow to pop off three +30 AS and increased aiming shots in 3 seconds. 3 aimed shots in 3 seconds = 3 kills. Great for a crowds or grims.

The last option are the elemental crossbows. They have all of the negative aspects as a regular crossbow, but they do not require loading ammunition and they can hit the undead.

[Fallen]

Nice post, Middian.

[Methais]

Whirlin's guide shows the disparity of ranged AS throughout the 1-100 level range. The Xbow would do a lot to negate that loss,so I happen to think it could be worthwhile. You'd have to ask a capped wizard who uses bows whether the extra +30 would be worth the hassle in places like the Scatter and the like.

Using a bow sucked for the most part at cap for me. The extra +30 would have definitely helped in a lot of situations.

I meant to try crossbow before I fixskilled back, but forgot.

[Whirlin]

Only Squares have access to Combat Mobility... so that gets thrown out the window.

Lets take a look at each component individually:
You need to cock crossbows
The equation for cocking a crossbow RT is currently unknown. I'll give a concession and say that it's comparable to firing an aimed longbow from the open, so it's possible to get down to 1s cocking time with haste. Although, I don't know if that's accurate. I remember it being much longer to cock a crossbow back when it was released (like, 12 seconds for my halfling self)


Regarding Damage/Second
Right off the We're talking about lowering the attack speed by 100%. And yet the two weapons have fairly even Damage Factors, so that's not much benefit. We're really just talking about 30 AS for half'ed attack speed.
I don't want to go into DF number crunching, or anything else at the moment, because there are a lot of hidden variables to go down that path.

If your have +80 or higher on your d100 roll, then firing more arrows will produce higher damage/second
+80 on D100 roll produces an average of 130. Think about it, you're giving up 9.75 damage against leather by not kneeling... so if you can produce the 9.75 damage in the same 1 additional second, then you're making out beneficially.


Base Weight
Heavy Crossbow: 12 pounds
Longbow: 3 pounds


Death Crits:
This is not an easy evaluation. I just stated above that you need 130 to make it even against leather (same DF... it fluctuates against armor type).
The main factor is that both bows and crossbows gain the phantom DEX weighting. As a halfling, I currently get +10 phantom damage on my arrow hits... this drastically pushes down the death crit threshold.

Lets assume a DEX bonus of 20... which is relatively a low, safe estimate, especially if the level concerns at this point is at cap. That's 5 phantom Damage bonus
Rank 4 eye crit = potential for death (yay crit randomization)
Min roll: (leather): 24 damage = 174 endroll before DEX Phantom Damage.
Min Roll: 19 = 159 with Dex

So, using the +80 guidance that we found above, that gives the bow a 21% to be in the fatal crit range.
By extension, that gives the crossbow a 51% chance to be in the fatal crit range.

Since you're firing 2 arrows in the time of 1 bolt, the likelihood of firing in the crit death tier is actually:
38.6% (1-BINOMDIST(0,2,0.21,TRUE))

Much higher chance of being in the death-crit teir with the crossbow

Lets see how this changes with more dex
Min roll: (leather): 24 damage = 177 endroll before DEX Phantom Damage.
Min Roll: 14 = 144 with Dex

So, using the +80 guidance that we found above, that gives the bow a 36% to be in the fatal crit range.
By extension, that gives the crossbow a 66% chance to be in the fatal crit range.
Since you're firing 2 arrows in the time of 1 bolt, the likelihood of firing in the crit death tier is actually:
59.04% (1-BINOMDIST(0,2,0.36,TRUE))

Smaller gap, but still beneficial for the Crossbow, as to be anticipated.

Ohh wait, there's more!
The above was just to pass into the crit threshold... Crit randomization reduces this chance even more, deminishing the advantage of the crossbow.
When you're in Crit Tier 4, you have the chance of the outcome to be a Tier 2, Tier 3, or Tier 4 crit. Distribution within this threshold is unknown, and slated to be tested further if people decide to buy my 7x maxlight longbow with +3 STR, +3 DEX enhancives on it for 15m, to free up my time for more mechanics testing.

So we'll just go ahead and multiply those crit death %s by about 1/3rd to reflect a more accurate chance of death:
Bow: 12.5%, 19.8%
Crossbow: 17%, 22%
Basically just closes the gap a little bit.

Lastly, applying it to an Archer-Mage
If you're following my guide and training to be an Archer-Mage, Archery is NOT the only form of attack we have available. Middian is able to align every aspect of his training towards crossbow mastery, including CMANs, which really don't apply to us. But by following the training that I laid out, a wizard is able to knock over, disable, use magic bolts, and immolate decently well while also pewpewing with arrows.

If you want the +80 on your D100 endroll to make bows better, toss out an e-wave before firing, or a tonis bolt, or sleep, or tremors, or call wind. We have a couple options available.
If you still can't hit a mob with your bow because they have stupid defenses, toss out a rapid fire 901, or a 906, or a 518. Or if all that fails, a 915 or 519.

Archery is not an all-in build. Unlike being a melee mage, we don't need to dedicate every aspect of our training to it. Make the most out of what you have available!

[Fallen]

Yes, but if you can't hit hard or well with a bow, it doesn't matter how fast you can fire it. The improved AvD at least on the heavier armor types is around 2-4 in advantage for the X-bow, and as mentioned, the DFs are stupidly the same for plate and leather but otherwise favor the Xbow. Add in kneeling AS boost and it may be easier to achieve higher endrolls which deal more damage than the longbow.

[Whirlin]

I'm getting to that... I said the post was incomplete...

God... impatient people...

Archer Wizards don't ONLY have bows to attack with. If your not getting +80 on your endroll with a bow, you can always use a magic bolt (like... 906... not like, an e-bladed crossbow bolt).

[Fallen]

I live in the NOW, man!

[Whirlin]

There, finished... If you can convince Methais to give me some more posts on the front page of my wizard's guide, I can copy/paste that in there.

[BriarFox]

If you decide to go with a crossbow, check out the +22 ipantor light crossbow, somewhat (presumably) sighted, in my auction.

[Whirlin]

If you decide to go with a crossbow, check out the +22 ipantor light crossbow, somewhat (presumably) sighted, in my auction.

Geeze... using other threads to push your own auctions?
What's this world coming to? Who does that?

PS: buy my bow.

[Haldrik]

Wow. Fantastic thread. Fuckton of useful information here. Thanks guys.


If you decide to go with a crossbow, check out the +22 ipantor light crossbow, somewhat (presumably) sighted, in my auction.

Is Ipantor enchantable?

[Whirlin]

Sighting on bows is the equivalent to weighting on melee weapons or padding on armor.
Can't be enchanted by a wizard. It can be Premium Point or Merchant enchanted though.