Adoption

[xShadowMerchantx]

Just wondering if any of you have adopted children or have been a foster parent. What state do you reside in and what were some of the challenges that you had to face?

I've been reading a lot of about adoption laws in Ohio and thankfully they have a very open-minded adoption system (Unlike NH and FL). I've seriously been considering this and I'm just looking for some opinions from those who have gone through it.

[Wezas]

Heard a great success story the other day. The Korean (http://forum.gsplayers.com/member.php?action=viewpro&member=The+Korean) is almost totally weened off of dog.

[Betheny]

And Wezas is almost totally weaned off sucking dick for crack.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Maimara
And Wezas is almost totally weaned off sucking dick for crack.

http://ncbuy.com/news/wireless_news.html?qdate=2002-11-20&nav=VIEW&id=09136I5C1UF021120

We know.

[Nakiro]

Oh yes, and adoption is defiinitly cool. My girlfriend's cousin is adopted, and I think its one of the most meaningful things you can do with your life.

It really does save the life of a child.

[SpunGirl]

If I have kids, I'll probably adopt them. I have no interest in being pregnant. My Aunt Jill adopted two little girls from China, and they are the most precious things in the world. My cousin Mike, who is my age, was adopted from Korea when we were five. And my cousin Jacob was a domestic adoption.

It's a cool thing to do. The agency my Aunt used for the China adoptions was called Journeys of the Heart, I think, and they do all kinds of international adoptions. Don't try for China if you want a boy, of course.

-K

[Skirmisher]

Yes, its really something when you think about it.

I totally forget most of the time that my four cousins are all adopted. They are just my cousins like any other.

Good luck to you! :up:

[SpunGirl]

I love having cousins with cool backgrounds. I'm a boring white girl.

Mike still keeps in touch with his Korea-Grandma, it was more of an open adoption situation.

-K

[Nieninque]

I think international adoptions are wrong.

Adoption itself is very good.

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Nieninque
I think international adoptions are wrong.


Just curious.. why? Adoption is almost always a great thing. Taking a child who is not wanted or cannot be raised properly, and putting them into a better situation.

[Betheny]

Duh, she's stupid.

[Ravenstorm]

I'm guessing it's the international part she's objecting too instead of adoption as a whole. There are plenty of American kids who never get adopted without needing to look outside the ocuntry. They're usually not babies however, from what I've heard.

Raven

[Betheny]

I think orphans are a global problem, not a domestic problem.

And orphans in America don't have it half as hard as orphans in some other countries.

[Nieninque]

And "rescuing poor little orphans" from under-developed countries or from other cultures does nothing to address the situation for the kids living in those countries after the very few that are adopted internationally, have gone.

Governments of other countries I believe put an annual limit on how many kids can be adopted outside of the country and this number is pitiful, if you are considering it to be a solution to the problems facing children in that country.

Lets also remember that the vast majority of children placed for adoption are not orphans at all, just victims of poor social conditions/cultural situations (in the case of places like China where there are/were limits on the amount of children people could have).

We would be better placed working at improving the situations to enable families in these circumstances to be able to look after their own children, than whisking them off to western ideas of a better life.

I am not against adoption. I think it is a necessary and a valuable thing. But as Ravenstorm pointed out, we have our own kids that need adopting at home (though I am not in the US, the UK is the same).

Sort something out for these kids. You dont need to go looking after little brown babies to do something good and, unlike Spungirls' relatives who have kept the child in touch with their background, most dont do this. Most kids struggle with their cultural background as minority ethnic kids "rescued" by white western families. Adoption isnt always a fairytale ending.

There was a case on the news here a while ago of a couple that adopted children from the States, I seem to recall. They did it that way as there wasnt a cat-in-hell's chance they would be able to adopt here. They were weird as fuck. They ended up having the children removed from them and taken into care.

They chose international adoptions becuase it was easier for them, and they would have more chance of being allowed by agencies that are effectively selling kids...dress it up how you like, thats what it is - and its wrong.

That said, Adoption is a good thing. I would say that anyone considering it is doing a great thing. I would say that people should look to the kids at home though, and consider a child that isnt a baby.

Kids here have very little chance of being adopted over the age of ten (girls) and over the age of five (boys). How desperate is that? Five years old and unplaceable.

People really dont need to look abroad.



Duh, she's stupid.


For having an opinion, Beth?
I thought better of you. :shrug:

[Betheny]

That doesn't change the fact that you're a complete and utter retard.

[Nieninque]

:jerkit:

[Stinkfist]

Originally posted by Nakiro

Originally posted by Maimara
And Wezas is almost totally weaned off sucking dick for crack.

http://ncbuy.com/news/wireless_news.html?qdate=2002-11-20&nav=VIEW&id=09136I5C1UF021120

We know.


What the fuck.....:lol:

[Caiylania]

We plan to adopt. Like others have said, so many kids are in need of people to give them the love and home they deserve. Babies are wanted by everyone, so we plan to go for an older child, one that would be destined to end up in the system forever.

Rick's two cousins were both adopted. One open, one closed. They are like part of the family, he sometimes forgets they are adopted at all. Even though one is asian and the other is mexican-american.

I think it's wonderful when anyone wants to help kids, as permanent homes or foster care. It is needed. I will never understand how so many people can abandon/abuse their children.

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Lets also remember that the vast majority of children placed for adoption are not orphans at all, just victims of poor social conditions/cultural situations......


I'm sure they understand that, too. In fact, try telling that to my cousin, who was 12 months old when they adopted her and completely undernourished. Try to tell her that, considering the fact that her "crib" was a wooden barrel cut in half and stacked with old blankets. "You're not really an orphan." She probably wouldn't be an orphan were it not for China's one-child rule, but she was still A CHILD ABANDONED BY HER PARENTS. Orphan.


Originally posted by Nieninque
We would be better placed working at improving the situations to enable families in these circumstances to be able to look after their own children, than whisking them off to western ideas of a better life.


This statement is completely contradictory. On one hand, you would prefer that western families did not adopt international children and impress upon them their ideas of a "better life." On the other hand, you would like to tell other governments how to handle their orphan situation and how to re-vamp their social practices to create less of a problem. Riiiight.



Originally posted by NieninqueMost kids struggle with their cultural background as minority ethnic kids "rescued" by white western families. Adoption isnt always a fairytale ending.


"Most" kids do? Guess what... lots of interracial kids struggle with their cultural backgrounds, too. Are you against interracial breeding as well? Adoptions might now always have a fairytale ending, but neither do actual biological parent/child situations.



Originally posted by Nieninque
There was a case on the news here a while ago of a couple that adopted children from the States, I seem to recall.

I read about that. The bottom line there was a crooked lawyer who knew she had weird wackos wanting to adopt some children, and milking the adoptive parents for every dime she could get out of them. I'm sure the reason this made the news is because it's a weird and unusual situation, not because it's the norm. It seems like you were trying to suggest that international adoptions are somehow easier, maybe more shady, less rigourous than domestic adoptions. Guess what? Anyone here with a kid can give it up, given they have willing recipients for the child and the time and money to spend making it legal. It can easily be done privately anywhere in the US, through a lawyer. When you take a child out of another country, it becomes a whole different matter and there's quite a bit of extra red tape.


Originally posted by Nieninque
They chose international adoptions becuase it was easier for them, and they would have more chance of being allowed by agencies that are effectively selling kids...dress it up how you like, thats what it is - and its wrong.

Read above. Your little scapegoat situation was PRIVATE LAWYER. And if agencies are selling kids, what's to prevent a domestic-only agency to do the same? Maybe we should stop domestic adoptions, too.

If people want to adopt, they should be allowed to chose international adoption if they'd like to. When my Aunt and Uncle decided to adopt, they applied with Journeys of the Heart (JH handles both international AND domestic adoptions) and were told their wait for a US child would be two-plus years, but their wait for an international child would be considerably less. Two months after passing the six-month screening process, they received a picture of Macey. They went through the same screening process and the same wait and got Maile next.

The only reason Mike can keep in touch with his Korean grandmother is because he actually knows who she is. He was adopted at the age of five, so he remembers her. It's probably a good thing he was adopted, too, because his mother ditched him, along with his brothers and sisters, at an orphanage after his father died. See, it's not really convenient for a single woman in Korea to be saddled with a bunch of kids. My Aunt Mary and Uncle Dave might not be able to petition the US government to show the Koreans how to handle this problem, but they were able to bring a member of our family home.

As for Macey and Maile? Good luck keeping them in touch with their real families. They don't even know their exact dates of birth - it's a rough guess, at best. Macey was lucky, she was actually abandoned at the orphanage. Maile was found in a rural area on the side of the road and probably wouldn't have survived another day. My Aunt Jill and Uncle Alan might not be able to petition the US government to tell China to quit abandoning their baby girls, but they were able to bring two members of our family home.

Have all the opinions you want about how countries should handle their abandoned and neglected children, but for you to say international adoption is "wrong" is just disgusting. There are a lot of things in this world that are "wrong." People taking children into their homes out of love and a desire to raise a child, no matter where they came from, how sick they are or difficult to care for, or what color they are is a beautiful thing. It doesn't make them ready for sainthood, but it is a GOOD thing.

-K

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by SpunGirl

I'm sure they understand that, too. In fact, try telling that to my cousin, who was 12 months old when they adopted her and completely undernourished. Try to tell her that, considering the fact that her "crib" was a wooden barrel cut in half and stacked with old blankets. "You're not really an orphan." She probably wouldn't be an orphan were it not for China's one-child rule, but she was still A CHILD ABANDONED BY HER PARENTS. Orphan.

The point I was making is that whilst she had been abandoned by her parents, she still had parents and therefore family alive. Sure, you speak of three children that have been rescued from a shit and short-lived existence as an orphan in their natural countries, what about the ones that are left? I know of the situation in romania where they have a double figure limit on the amount of international adoptions they allow. There are thousands of children needing appropriate care and parenting...many of whom have parents that are actually alive and, in the right socio-economic conditions would be able to care for their own children themselves.



Originally posted by Nieninque
We would be better placed working at improving the situations to enable families in these circumstances to be able to look after their own children, than whisking them off to western ideas of a better life.


This statement is completely contradictory. On one hand, you would prefer that western families did not adopt international children and impress upon them their ideas of a "better life." On the other hand, you would like to tell other governments how to handle their orphan situation and how to re-vamp their social practices to create less of a problem. Riiiight.


You dont think that's a good idea?
Pressuring governments where policies and practices contravene people's human rights in order for the citizens of that country to live in better circumstances with their own families?

The point about assimilation into western culture was based upon the misconception that west=best.


"Most" kids do? Guess what... lots of interracial kids struggle with their cultural backgrounds, too. Are you against interracial breeding as well?

Of course not, people have the right to choose their own partners. Children from mixed race relationships often need support to understand their racial/cultural identity, often they have contact with their parents to enable them to fo so.


Adoptions might now always have a fairytale ending, but neither do actual biological parent/child situations.


There is a 1 in 4 chance of breakdown in adoptive placements. Higher than disharmony in biological families, I think you will agree.



I read about that. The bottom line there was a crooked lawyer who knew she had weird wackos wanting to adopt some children, and milking the adoptive parents for every dime she could get out of them. I'm sure the reason this made the news is because it's a weird and unusual situation, not because it's the norm. It seems like you were trying to suggest that international adoptions are somehow easier, maybe more shady, less rigourous than domestic adoptions. Guess what? Anyone here with a kid can give it up, given they have willing recipients for the child and the time and money to spend making it legal. It can easily be done privately anywhere in the US, through a lawyer. When you take a child out of another country, it becomes a whole different matter and there's quite a bit of extra red tape.

Well there is a big difference between the US and the UK.

In the UK, only particular agencies (Social Services and a few voluntary adoption agencies) are able to process adoptions. It cant just be done by anyone. International adoptions were tightened up after the situation with the oddballs in Wales which was of course, unusual, but it highlighted a problem. It was indeed easier to adopt internationally and there were less restrictions in doing so. I am not sure how it stands now but would hope it was at least as difficult to do as domestic adoptions, if not more so.


Read above. Your little scapegoat situation was PRIVATE LAWYER. And if agencies are selling kids, what's to prevent a domestic-only agency to do the same? Maybe we should stop domestic adoptions, too.

Actually, it had nothing to do with a lawyer and everything to do with two people seeing it as their right to have children, rather than childrens rights to have a family, and going round the back door in order to get one. As it turned out, most people with any sense would not have let these two adults look after their dog, let alone a child and the authorities agreed and removed the child (or was it twins?).

If you are under the impression that adoption agencies are selling children, I guess that explains the difference in how adoption works in the US and the UK where adoptive families are not charged, but are seen as a resource and a potential home for children. No selling involved.



If people want to adopt, they should be allowed to chose international adoption if they'd like to.

The other thread that was about responsible parents (or mothers to be more precise - started by you, Spun?) kind of had a good point made in it, that it is a lot harder to have an animal than it is to have a child...effectively anyone can have a child. Adoption is different in that there are a whole load of hoops people have to jump through in order to be allowed to adopt - and rightly so, as the children that would be adopted are emotionally damaged children.
If people see it as their right to be able to adopt period, they are wrong. They have a right to be assessed as to whether they are suitable to give someone a home, and I applaud anyone who chooses to do that.

If they ask to adopt a child internationally, the first question I would ask is why???

What is it that makes the chinese girl abandoned by her parents any more needy or deserving of adoption than the american/asian girl abandoned by her parents? That's what I dont understand.

There is a part of every adopter that wants to rescue the child from the pitiful existence they have and give them something better, and that is appropriate and fine. But I dont understand the attraction of doing it internationally. There are so many more children that need adoptions at home than can ever be placed with the number of people that apply to adopt.


People taking children into their homes out of love and a desire to raise a child, no matter where they came from, how sick they are or difficult to care for, or what color they are is a beautiful thing.

It would be, but that's not what it is.
They are not saying yeah, I will help out a child from down the road who has been abandoned, and will go through the beauracracy to be able to do so, they are saying I want a chinese baby because it is quicker.

When people here are approved for adoption they can get a kind of newspaper publication that has photos of children needing adoption and a little blurb about them, so that prospective adopters can look through them and apply to adopt.

It's kind of a necessary thing because it finds homes for kids, but I always wondered about why certain kids got picked and why others didnt. Aesthetics...bad reason to choose children to adopt.

I find it a little disconcernting when people put anything other than practical considerations down as to reasons why they want to or dont want to adopt a child with particular characteristics.

Nationality is one of them for me I'm afraid. If you want a child to adopt, it shouldnt make any difference that they come from your own country.



It doesn't make them ready for sainthood, but it is a GOOD thing.

-K

On the whole yes it is.

[Stinkfist]

I think Nen was a chinese baby that got adopted into a white trash family....

Now she is bitter and cant think of any other way to say she wants to go home....

:laser:

*ducks and covers waiting for an atomic explosion of not so well placed anger*

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Stinkfist
I think
Liar

[SpunGirl]

So because there are problems with adoption when you take it in a lump, as a huge system, you're going to stand up there and tell me international adoptions are "wrong?" Bullshit.

If people choose to adopt and meet qualifications, they SHOULD be able to choose the manner in which they do so. If that means opening themselves up to international adoptions rather than LIMITING themselves to domestic adoptions, there's nothing wrong with that.

And yes, I'm talking about three children, my cousins, taken from a bad existence to a decidedly better one. What about the others, you ask me? Why are you asking ME? Shouldn't you be asking yourself? My family has already welcomed and cared for three of these children. I don't see you doing anything to better the situation of the other kids, nor do I see you after your government to discuss the state of the orphan problem in China or Korea and make them figure out a better system. No, you'd rather do nothing at all and then stand up and tell the people who are doing SOMETHING that it's wrong for them to do so.

My suggestion to you would be to stop viewing homeless and orphaned children as a local, national problem and start looking at it as a responsibility the entire world has to face up to. People accuse the US of being isolationist motherfuckers who only concern themselves with what is best for the US, but that's not true in this case, is it? My family did not say, "give us the fastest baby we can get," they said, "we would like to raise a child, and it doesn't matter where we have to travel to bring them home - put us on the list." Don't you fucking dare presume to tell me my family wanted the quickest, fastest baby they could find. I was there for the process. I know what it entailed and how they wound up adopting from China, and it wasn't "get me a kid NOW."

Until you've found yourself in the position of wanting to have children and realizing it isn't possible, dont stand up on your fucking soapbox and get all preachy about what children should and shouldn't be adopted by which parents. Personally, I'd rather a pair of adoptive parents who WANT a child come adopt me than have some local government enact some measures for social change that force my real parents to take me back if they "can."

Looking back, it seems almost pointless to have written it and even more pointless to continue to argue with you. You're taking a few sensationalistic cases of complete wackjobs and using them to tear down an entire system to that does a lot of good for a lot of people. You're saying people shouldn't be able to adopt a child of another ethnicity than they themselves are if they so choose (or if they don't care what ethnicity their children are). If I didn't know better, I'd say that's pretty fucking racist of you.

-K

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Stinkfist
I think
Liar :ohshit::lol:

[HouseofElves]

I agree with Kristin. At least within the US for the most part, there are specific cases that end up tragically, but we have a wonderful foster and adoption system. I know, my Grandmother used to run an adoption agency in our city so I'm fairly well versed with requirements and what happens when a child doesn't get adopted--which was rare within our city.

A lot of families feel they do not want to adopt a foriegn child for whatever reason be it language barriers or the fear of what others might think...and while yes it sounds awful these people will more than likely adopt a child from the states.

Bottom line to me is if you are going to help a child, great. Who cares where you decide to bring the child in from as long as you are capable of providing them a loving and nurturing home. If you can make a difference anywhere, more power to you.


P.S. Beth, way to get right to the point. <3

[Trinitis]

Nieninque -

I've been asked to use my modly powers to pwn you.

So if you could please sock yourself in the eye, then spend a few weeks feeling violated, I'd be greatful.

Thanks!

Oh, and make sure you tell people you got that black eye from my overly-powerful mod-like pwnage. kthx.

-Overly powerful Godlike Mod.

[Edited on 8-19-2004 by LordAdredrin]

[Bobmuhthol]

Geoffani shouldn't be allowed near children.

[xShadowMerchantx]

I wouldn't allow you near children kinder-xShadowMerchantx

[Edited on 8-21-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[Bobmuhthol]

Oh okay.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
So because there are problems with adoption when you take it in a lump, as a huge system, you're going to stand up there and tell me international adoptions are "wrong?" Bullshit.

It is my belief that international adoptions are fundamentally flawed. They give a handful of children from certain countries a good chance at Western life whilst the issues leading to the vast majority of children in those and other underdeveloped countries are ignored. I dont believe that individuals or couples who adopt from abroad are doing anything wrong per se, but I believe that instead of adopting these children out of the country, we should be making sure they have every life chance within their country.



If people choose to adopt and meet qualifications, they SHOULD be able to choose the manner in which they do so. If that means opening themselves up to international adoptions rather than LIMITING themselves to domestic adoptions, there's nothing wrong with that.

I think there is something wrong with the process and the systems that allow that to happen, although it is not the fault of the individual adopters.


And yes, I'm talking about three children, my cousins, taken from a bad existence to a decidedly better one.

And I'm not condemning anyone for doing that.


What about the others, you ask me? Why are you asking ME?

Because it's you that I am having the discussion with. It wasnt necessarily phrased in such a way as "what are you doing about the rest?" more a "what happens to the rest?"


Shouldn't you be asking yourself? My family has already welcomed and cared for three of these children. I don't see you doing anything to better the situation of the other kids, nor do I see you after your government to discuss the state of the orphan problem in China or Korea and make them figure out a better system. No, you'd rather do nothing at all and then stand up and tell the people who are doing SOMETHING that it's wrong for them to do so.


And here is where your argument falls flat...because you know absolutely fuck all about me and my life. You can sit on your high horse and make assumptions about me all you like, but please dont pretend to know the first thing about me and what I have done or what I will do about anything, until you actually know.


My suggestion to you would be to stop viewing homeless and orphaned children as a local, national problem and start looking at it as a responsibility the entire world has to face up to. People accuse the US of being isolationist motherfuckers who only concern themselves with what is best for the US, but that's not true in this case, is it?

Yes it is. The US and the rest of the western states continue to ignore the social conditions that cause these families to be unable to look after their own children. If they spent the money they wasted on fucking wars over oil, on improving socio-economic conditions for people in underdeveloped countries, then surely that has to be far more beneficial for all concerned than a few children each year getting the opportunity to live in the States or the UK (albeit in very caring and nurturing families).


My family did not say, "give us the fastest baby we can get," they said, "we would like to raise a child, and it doesn't matter where we have to travel to bring them home - put us on the list." Don't you fucking dare presume to tell me my family wanted the quickest, fastest baby they could find.

All I know about your family is what you tell me about them...


previously posted by Spungirl
When my Aunt and Uncle decided to adopt, they applied with Journeys of the Heart (JH handles both international AND domestic adoptions) and were told their wait for a US child would be two-plus years, but their wait for an international child would be considerably less.

That's where I got that from. Sorry if I misunderstood.



I was there for the process. I know what it entailed and how they wound up adopting from China, and it wasn't "get me a kid NOW."

No and I never implied that they did. I would like to make it clear that I am not casting aspertions against the members of you family who have adopted because from the sounds of it, they have done a great job.



Until you've found yourself in the position of wanting to have children and realizing it isn't possible....

<snipped more assumptions>


Personally, I'd rather a pair of adoptive parents who WANT a child come adopt me than have some local government enact some measures for social change that force my real parents to take me back if they "can."

The key is to prevent it from happening in the first place. Once kids have been abandoned, the damage is done and it is something else trying to patch things up...but if we start out trying to resolve things before they break down....bingo!


Looking back, it seems almost pointless to have written it and even more pointless to continue to argue with you. You're taking a few sensationalistic cases of complete wackjobs and using them to tear down an entire system to that does a lot of good for a lot of people. You're saying people shouldn't be able to adopt a child of another ethnicity than they themselves are if they so choose (or if they don't care what ethnicity their children are). If I didn't know better, I'd say that's pretty fucking racist of you.

Nice touch. Throw the race card in.
Misplaced, I hasten to add...because I was talking about international adoptions, not inter-racial adoptions...though those can be problematic as well. I didnt say people shouldnt be able to look after someone from different ethnicities, because they can and do (and should). Taking children from one country to another though....now thats something else.

[Bobmuhthol]

Men who adopt children are pedophiles and a disgrace to all other men.

[Betheny]

Wow.

It amuses me to think that ALL OF US (except native americans) ARE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES.

We ough to have prescribed ourselves N's brand of thinking, and stayed the fuck where we belonged. Screw looking for a better life. Let's just stay in our shitholes and die.

Whatever.:grr::stfu:

[Edited on 8-19-2004 by Maimara]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Maimara
Wow.

It amuses me to think that ALL OF US (except native americans) ARE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES.

We ough to have prescribed ourselves N's brand of thinking, and stayed the fuck where we belonged. Screw looking for a better life. Let's just stay in our shitholes and die.

Whatever.:grr::stfu:

[Edited on 8-19-2004 by Maimara]

How about making other people's shitholes a lilttle less shit.

And just to remind you, we are not talking about adults emigrating, we are talking about children being taken thousands of miles without any choice in what happens to them.

And we dont all come from the US, now or ever.

[Edited on 19-8-04 by Nieninque]

[Betheny]

So, in your eyes, international adoptions = kidnapping?

[Artha]

It amuses me to think that ALL OF US (except native americans) ARE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES.

Only if you immigrated.

[Betheny]

...

Everyone that is not Native American and lives in the United States is either an immigrant or descended from an immigrant.

Wasn't I clear enough? :drool:

[Edited on 8-19-2004 by Maimara]

[Souzy]

Originally posted by Nieninque
I think international adoptions are wrong.


Why? I disagree anyway.

I have a couple friends that are adopted. Korean kids. Their dad whom I worked with for a couple years, he's a freakin' neuro-surgeon, who adopted 13 kids from different countries. Him and his wife did that cos they're just the best people in the world. They have a son of their own and they are treated no different then the rest. If I had the money to adopt kids from a third world country and give them a better life, I would. Why wouldn't anyone? What you said there Nine, was kinda ridiculous.

[Ravenstorm]

I'd prefer to see people work to improve their own back yard first. There are plenty of American children, of all races and ethnicities, who need loving parents, don't have any and never will. The five year old doesn't care how much worse some stranger in a country she's never heard of has it. Her reality is that no one wants her.

International adoption is certainly not a bad thing. But I'd prefer to see Americans come first instead of trying to save the world. Once there are no suffering, unloved children here, then worry about elsewhere.

Raven

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Everyone that is not Native American and lives in the United States is either an immigrant or descended from an immigrant.>>

Man was not created in America. Native Americans had to migrate there, too. So because they were the first people to settle there, they win.

Just kidding. They lost and got killed.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Men who adopt children are pedophiles and a disgrace to all other men.

I am going to assume you are kidding, Bob. If not, please don't disabuse me of my inclination to believe that you have some intelligence. :)

HarmNone

[xShadowMerchantx]

Bob has no intelligence... This is obviously very clear.

[xShadowMerchantx]

On a side note... While researching Adoption, they actually had some studies that showed that 94% of pedophiles are STRAIGHT MEN whom abuse their SPOUSE/FAMILIES children.

[HarmNone]

Although the situation is somewhat different, I adopted my husband's children. Lost the husband, kept the children. Great trade, that! :D

HarmNone, happy with the results

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Bob has no intelligence>>

You're an anti-gay homosexual. At least I'm not living a lie.

[TheRoseLady]

I have two nephews who are from korea. My sister and her husband adopted them both. My sister explained their reasons for going international - it was their decision.

As for adoption in Ohio, I live here but have not a clue about adoption, Geoffani.

-TRL

[Souzy]

I don't care if you adopt over seas or locally. It's just an unselfish act when someone does take in a child that is in need.

P.S. HN you was once married?! I thought you was a nun? :D

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I want to have at least one boy then we can definately discuss adoption. I'd rather adopt than put a check in an envelope.

[xShadowMerchantx]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<Bob has no intelligence>>

You're an anti-gay homosexual. At least I'm not living a lie.

Have you come out yet Bob?

[Bobmuhthol]

I'm waiting for men to start being attractive. Until then, I'll stick to chicks.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Lalana
I don't care if you adopt over seas or locally. It's just an unselfish act when someone does take in a child that is in need.

P.S. HN you was once married?! I thought you was a nun? :D

Heh. Since I'm Pagan, I really doubt the Catholic church would welcome me into one of their nunneries. Talk about a duck outa water! :rofl:

HarmNone, no nun

*Edited because a word went missing.*

[Edited on 8-20-2004 by HarmNone]

[Bobmuhthol]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/Bobmuhthol1/hn.jpg

[HarmNone]

Hee! The very thought may send the PTB of the Catholic church screaming into the streets!:popcorn2:

HarmNone would not want to cause such alarm

[Stinkfist]

Originally posted by Maimara
Wow.

It amuses me to think that ALL OF US (except native americans) ARE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES.

[Edited on 8-19-2004 by Maimara]

Just to agree with you, the Eskimos, who are part of a lot of Indian backgrounds came over the berring straight from Asia. So they are immigrants too...

[Betheny]

I definitely want one of my own. Even if it's a disgusting, disturbing process. But if/when I'm able, I'd like to be able to open my home to disadvantaged children. I think I'd rather be a foster parent than adopt, though.

[Stinkfist]

Honestly, I think that adoption is great. I dont ever plan on doing it, but that doesnt mean I wont.
:deadhorse:

[Praefection]

I'll be the first to admit I don't like kids but if I ever got to a point in my life where I WANTED to start a family. (Kill me first) I'd want to adopt. I have an aunt who is one nut job among many in my family who kept having kid after kid until she finally had a girl. Eventually the younger ones got taken away and placed in foster care. The boys were older 8ish and it was doubtful they'd be adopted due to their emotional problems. It was really heartbreaking to see this kind of shit happening within my own family. These kids didn't do anything wrong except have a mother who was a fucking waste of life.

I feel that if I could change the life of one child and possibly prevent the kind of fucked up life I had, and I'm sure a lot of people could relate with would be so much better than actually starting from scratch so to speak.

I don't think international adoption is wrong but I do feel that parents who want to wait 2 years for a child really want one, and that makes it more special. I'd rather see the kids in the US taken care of first but I won't condem anyone who wants to adopt a child from elsewhere. A child needs to be loved regardless of where they come from.

[Tirayana]

Wow, why all the hostility towards Nien?

I agree with Nien, I think there has to be a way to change the system, where we should be able to prevent things like homelessness and child abandonment from happening in the first place.

Adoption is excellent. I think it is definitely a great option, and for those who do it, kudos to ya. But, overall, things gotta change. I like how everyone in this thread is making the U.S. out to be some kind of pinnacle of greatness, that our adoption system is sooo great, blah freaking blah. Well, it's not great. If it was, then crazy people wouldn't be allowed to adopt kids. And believe me, they do..aLOT more than you know.

And again, I have to agree with Nien, that if more time and money was taken out from fighting over oil, and put into trying to fix socio-economic conditions, we could prevent child abandonment from happening in the first place. But, there's a lot of places that money has to go, and this is just one issue that has to be addressed.

I don't necessarily think that adoptions should happen within each given country, rather than internationally. My guess is that most of the folks that want to isolate adoption to a given country is because of other conditions floating around us that have to be changed (i.e. rising unemployment rates, economic depression, and other bullshit that has to be fixed).

Overall, you have to be a loving, kind person to adopt a child and raise a child. The point I think Nien is trying to make is that in a lot or even most cases of adoption, the parent comes before the child. And that's totally wrong. The child should have a say, and the child's feelings and emotions should be considered before the parents' feelings or emotions. The child is what is MOST important, in my opinion.

~Tirayana, ready to get pummeled by opinionated jerks. :)

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by Nieninque
It is my belief that international adoptions are fundamentally flawed. They give a handful of children from certain countries a good chance at Western life whilst the issues leading to the vast majority of children in those and other underdeveloped countries are ignored. I dont believe that individuals or couples who adopt from abroad are doing anything wrong per se, but I believe that instead of adopting these children out of the country, we should be making sure they have every life chance within their country.

You didn't say it was flawed, sorry. You said it was WRONG.

Would you rather have ALL the children in those countries ignored by say, outlawing international adoption? A few are taken in and a lot aren't? Again, it's a GLOBAL problem, and until you start pestering your government (hah!) to do something about thie issue, you don't have anything to say about those that are helping in their tiny, miniscule way.

And sorry, but professional couples, or even couples who have one working parent and one stay at home parent, often lead busy lives. They don't necessarily have time to be taking on the governments of these countries and demanding that they better the lives of the children who live there.


Originally posted by NieninqueAnd I'm not condemning anyone for doing that.

But you did say it was wrong, and now you seem bewildered as to why you've hit a nerve. You're smarter than that.



Originally posted by NieninqueThe US and the rest of the western states continue to ignore the social conditions that cause these families to be unable to look after their own children. If they spent the money they wasted on fucking wars over oil, on improving socio-economic conditions for people in underdeveloped countries....


Last time I checked, China wasn't exactly an underdeveloped country. Some rural areas are a little rough, but so are some rural areas in the states. The bottom line is that there are social practices and accepted attitudes in place (using China as an example here) that the US or the UK cannot blaze in and just change because they feel like it. They cannot say, "you should allow more than one child, and you should stop valuing the life of a male child over a female child." You talk about the government taking care of domestic issues first, yet you want them to go over and legislate the hearts and minds of the people in this countries. That makes no sense.


Originally posted by NieninqueThe key is to prevent it from happening in the first place. Once kids have been abandoned, the damage is done and it is something else trying to patch things up...but if we start out trying to resolve things before they break down....bingo!

I'll be interested to see the results of your goodwill mission to China and other countries where you try and tell them how to handle the family situation of their citizens. Keep me updated, please.


Originally posted by NieninqueNice touch. Throw the race card in.
Misplaced, I hasten to add...because I was talking about international adoptions, not inter-racial adoptions...

Well, you did say that one of the problems with international adoptions was that the child has a lack of cultural identity due to growing up with those of a different ethnicity. That could just as easily happen with a domestic adoption, it DOES happen with interracial children, and while you pointed out that in that case both parents would be there to "help" the child understand his/her background, you can't be dumb enough to think that's true. How many kids are abandoned by just one parent on a daily basis? How many of those are children with two different ethnic backgrounds? Maybe that should be outlawed, too.

-K

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Last time I checked, China wasn't exactly an underdeveloped country.>>

Artistically, they are very much underdeveloped.

http://home.wangjianshuo.com/archives/2003/04/24/screen-china.national.flag.jpg

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<Last time I checked, China wasn't exactly an underdeveloped country.>>

Artistically, they are very much underdeveloped.

http://home.wangjianshuo.com/archives/2003/04/24/screen-china.national.flag.jpg

They're leaps and bounds over Libya though.

http://www.ultimateflags.com/int/images/libya.gif

In grade school there was almost a fight over who got to get Libya when we had to create flags in History.

[Betheny]

Wow, what a weak flag. I guess they're spending too much time training terrorists and not enough time training artists?

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
And "rescuing poor little orphans" from under-developed countries or from other cultures does nothing to address the situation for the kids living in those countries after the very few that are adopted internationally, have gone.So by your logic, I shouldn't pull someone out of the path of a DUI vehicle because I don't stop every person everywhere from drinking and driving? I agree that drinking and driving is bad, but I'm not going to let someone get pasted.
Originally posted by Tirayana
Wow, why all the hostility towards Nien?If you did an especially good thing and were condemned for it, would you feel hostile? I'm pretty sure I would be amused at first, but hostility would emerge soon enough.

[Jolena]

I know I'm err..bumping this thread after weeks, but seeing as how I am adopted myself I wanted to give my thoughts. (Humble as they may be)

First off, let me just say that NO system is unflawed regarding adoption and yes, unfortunately, there will always be 'wackos and unfit parents' who 'slip through the cracks' of screening. I fortunately, did not have that problem and wound up in a very loving and kind family. The thing we can do as a whole is work towards better screening through instances like the private lawyer and couple who adopted the children from a foreign country and try to make things better. It's always and will always be a work in progress.

That being said, I am all for adoption for obvious reasons. I, myself, am a bi-racial person and my circumstances could have and would have been very harsh had I not been adopted. I was also lucky in that I was adopted at just 3 days old and didn't have to spend years in an orphanage waiting. There are a lot of children, as most of you are aware, who don't have that luxury and end up not being adopted due to their age. This is something that should and could be changed if people were willing to adopt children and not just babies, however that is not really the point of my post.

I think that on the issue of adoption, it is a good thing to do no matter where the child comes from and although I would like to see children from the US adopted out first I have no problems with anyone being adopted from another country because anytime a child is loved and cared for it's a good thing. One thing though..everyone keeps talking about how the money could be used to help the families prevent the abandonment in other countries, and I think that it should be focused here in the US (or UK in Nein's case) before being sent elsewhere. Too often, I feel that our government focuses more on 'rescuing' other countries and not enough on our own problems here at home. Just my 2 cents on that particular argument.

As far as taking children from third world countries and bringing them home to the US in the ideal that west is best..I think that's a bit jaded. No, all children don't get taken from those countries which is unfortunate, but as someone else said before with the example of DUI's-- it is better to help some then none at all.