Polearm, OHE, Pure, THW Bard Information & Bard Guide

[Whirlin]

Welcome to the second installation of GuidesbyWhirlin. This time I'll tackle everything I know about Bards.

The style will be very similar to the wizard's guide that I wrote about a month ago. First, I will go into the Skills and spells that make the class unique, then go into different build options, racial selection & societies, and then a Q&A Section based on feedback/commentary from replies.

I will require 5 posts for the guide for the logical separation of the guide... And it will likely be several days until complete. Please be patient!



Welcome to my Second Profession Guide. This guide will cover Bards, including everything training, common archetypes, racial selection, and societal considerations.

Bard: The Ultimate Quest to maximize Short Term Gains
In my own experiences playing a bard, I've found that the bard class is a series of short term gains and considerations meant to maximize your current self, while putting off training that would widely be considered core required training.

This is a new mindset for a large playerbase of Gemstone. A large group of us were playing back in the GS3 days, when training was done when you leveled, only when you leveled, and you could never go back in training to make up for things lost. This created an environment where gains may take a large time to achieve, and couldn't really be powered through at the temporary cost of training points.

However, with the migration of GS4, and the revamped training point to level relationship, training point investments are much more temporary. The implications of this migration means that missing a level worth of training in X may be insubstantial in the long term, as long as you pick it up later.



What training in stuff does, and why its important
Lets go item by item...
Physical Stuff
Armor Use Reduces RT associated with heavier armor, Combat maneuver penalties, and spell hindrance from wearing armor (more on that later!)
Shield Use Generates DS when using a shield... Derp
*** Weapons Raises AS with a particular Weapon... Derp
Two Weapon Combat Specifically to Two weapon styles... This is a bigger topic than a one line snippet.
Combat Maneuvers +.5 Melee AS per rank. Plus all those shiney shiney special moves... This is the good stuff
Multi-Oponent Combat Pretty good, I'll go into this a little more later on... allows mstrike, and Force on Force adjustments... overall good stuff.
Ambush Nice to be able to aim... some posts say that a full 1x isn't necessary with proper Combat Maneuver training, but still pretty difficult to pull off without sacrificing elsewhere.
Physical Fitness Core training, HP growth, Maneuver defense
Dodging I think for most instances, it's the most TP efficient way of generating DS and general defenses.

Magical Stuff
Arcane Symbols Good if you have a pocket Sorcerer
Magic Item Use Good if you have a pocket Wizard or Sorcerer
Harness Power It's Mana!!! yay Mana!
Spell Aiming It's like weapon training, but worthless for bards!
Mana Control:Various Elemental and Mental are good for bards... but that's a bigger topic later on.
Spell Research Core Training Get spell ranks, unlock new spells, make existing spells better.
Lores Bigger Topic... Two types matter, mental and... air...


Super Quick Overview of Bard Songs
Buffing Songs: 1003 (DS), 1006 (Maneuvers, group), 1007 (AS, Group), 1010 (DS), 1019 (Dodge ranks (ie: DS))
Equipment: 1009 (shield), 1014 (Armor), 1012 (weapon)

Attack Songs
1001: Warding, Reduces target's DS. Solid Opener
1002: Warding, Turns target's weapon/shield into a vibrator, causing pleasure and difficulty to handle. Decent Opener for a swinger, amazing and cheap opener for a pure.
1005: No Ward, puts a critter to sleep, or causes them to sit, or induces additional RT. Good Opener when you have difficulty warding
1008: Warding, damage + knockdown. Meh
1030: The most overpowered attack song in the history of everything. Play an instrument, explode heads. Stronger if you're good with an instrument, and using a two handed one.

Miscellaneous Songs
1004: Purify gems, make loot
1013: Absorb the mana out of magic items
1025: Animated weapon follower.

Situational Room-Effect Songs:
1011: Traveling Sanctuary
1015: Warding for critters and additional slow effect
1016: Critters forced into offensive, targeting bards. Equivalent of WOW taunt, FFXI Provoke, etc, etc... Making Bards more effective tanks than warriors and paladins! How's that for logic?
1017: Makes it hard for anyone to cast spells in the room, INCLUDING SONG RENEWAL
1018: Traveling mana node for your group
1020: Basically like fogging to town, except, to an inn, and a pain in the ass to set.

In a category of it's own:
1035: Group Haste, Dodge buff
1040: Get out of stun/jail/lying free

How do they work?
Normally, people sit in TSC or GC and beg for a wizard to cast them 4 hours of spells, and then they go on their way, prancing and slaughtering. Bards... not so much. Songs aren't quite like that. Songs have an initial cost to activate, and then a duration, then an upkeep cost. Initial cast is based on potency, like many spells, Duration is increased via Bard Song training, Mental Lore: Telepathy training, Logic, and Influence. The upkeep cost is dependent on the songs being sung, and are then influenced by a multi-song penalty.

Multi-Song Penalty
The multi-song penalty is still being researched. But, the basic gist of it is that there's a default of an additional 12 mana cost for every song that you keep up after the first. This is reduced by bard song ranks, Discipline, and Logic. This is a very steep cost. It also grants some preferential gaming of the system. For example: 1003 only costs 3 mana, 1 upkeep. So, 5 seconds before the renew cycle, drop 1003, do your renewal manually, and put 1003 back up: You just saved up to 10 mana.

Multi-song penalty becomes a non-issue over time. The known part of the equation is that each bard rank provides -.5 renewal cost on the multi-song penalty. However, the upkeep costs for songs also increases as bard ranks increase:
1006 grows at +.125 upkeep
1010 grows at +.1 upkeep
1019 grows at +.1 upkeep

So, if you're keeping those three up, you're losing out on .325 upkeep gains on the multi-song penalty... Meaning each rank is only decreasing mana costs by .175 mana per rank.



Lores: Dafaq?
5 Mental Lores: Divination, Manipulation, Telepathy, Transference, Transformation. Divination, Transference, and Transformation have nothing to do with anything, so we're gonna ignore them outright and just talk about the remaining two:

Telepathy
Telepathy is good for two ends: A physical Bard, and a low level bard.
For Physical builds, the two main things from Telepathy training are additional AS from 1007, and additional duration on 1035. The AS increase is by the Seed 3 calculation, and 1035 the duration is +1 second for the first 20 ranks, and then 1 second per 2 ranks after that.
For Pure builds, it furthers the TD pushdown of 1015... but, for mental builds, Manipulation is better.

Manipulation
Manipulation effects 1002, 1004, and 1030.
1030 is the biggest influence. Basically, at 75 ranks, it makes it so that it's as though you're actively playing a two handed instrument... without having one. With gradual increases up to that point.

Elemental Lore: Air
Air Lore is great. For 1035 and Sonic gear.
There's no reason for a bard to train any other elemental lore. If you see a bard with Fire Lore, punch them and insult their mother, they deserve it.
I'll have a whole other section on sonic gear... right now!



Sonic Gear: Why Bards always have money!
1009 and 1012 has a base of 2x, growth of 1/2
1014 has a base of 3, growth of 1/2
All have a max of 7x

Sonic Shields
Air Lore is pretty badass with sonic shields... at 20/50/100 ranks of air lore, the shield is effectively -1/-2/-3 sizes for penalties. This means at 100 air ranks, a tower shield reduces evasion like a small shield.

Sonic Weapons
This is why people want to be bards. ALL sonic weapons have air flares. With air lore, you're increasing the chance of a second flare. This increases at 3% per seed 3 summation, with continuous, rather than discrete growth.
So... Continuous Growth means that 1 rank in air lore may yield that additional 1%, rather than needing to land nicely on a seed 3 number.
Sonic weapon double flares are what draw a lot of people to bards... Although, it should be noted, they cannot be ensorcelled!

Sonic Armor
I'm a bigger advocate of Sonic Armor than the other two pieces of gear... The main reason is that you choose what ASG you want your armor to be... So as you're training up your armor, and you reach that point between double leather and leather breastplate, no reason to go out any buy new armor. Just use a different number when you sing. Nice and easy
Ohh... and it deflects elemental magic based on air lore ranks... which would be nice, but we have song of noise... so it's not REALLY a huge issue, just a nice-to-have

The real deal with Sonic Gear
Don't get me wrong, Sonic gear is badass as all hell... but it's not THAT amazing until LATER in your bard career. I'm talking 60/70+. This will be a major sticking point in my guide, and one of my major points that I will be making right now.
Lets first look at the next best alternative to non-sonic equipment.

AS Implications:
I was able to pick up an elegant 4x lance for about 30k from a player shop. So that's the equivalent of about a +22 weapon. I'll need 24 ranks in bard circle before I get the same AS bonus. If you take the Minor Elemental Path, that's level 52... That's 40 levels of using the song while not utilizing a maximum AS. And realistically, at those levels, critters don't really live long enough to worry about the additional flare damage, you're being more restricted by your DS

Mana Implications
The multi-song penalty is putting the cost of that spell at 14 mana per renewal cycle. Which is a lot at lower levels!
Furthermore, even once you do get up to 65, when you have both 430 and 1035... That just further incentivizes keeping that mana and converting it into damage output via 1035.

Training Implications
This is my last argument against instant use of sonic equipment until later. If you are NOT using sonic equipment, you don't need as much Air Lore Training. This can allow you to train more freely in other, discrete training options. It can allow you to unlock 425 and 1020 in a more expedited fashion, unlock hinderanceless ASG15 earlier on, and focused MStrike if you want that path. There are a lot of things that Bards can train in... Dedicating 8 MTPs a level towards a lore which you won't be using til later is really limiting your potential.


The Bard Versus MnE Spell Circle Debate
Man... Just to make sure I put myself on the corner of every ledge ever with this guide, I'm gonna go ahead and chime in on the ongoing debate of emphasizing Bard Circle or Minor Elemental Spell Circle first.

I recommend Bard to 20, then Minor Elemental to 30. Then Bard back up to X level. Lets go into my justification

Unlocking Sonic Armor (1014) is incredibly powerful before you're fully trained in Armor to keep yourself in the highest ASG you have available.
1035 is incredibly mana intensive. If you unlock 1035 at level 35, you will not have the max mana pool to support utilizing the spell to the full potential.
The Non-Lore AS component of Kai's Triumph Song (1007) maxes out at 17 Bard Ranks.
The 20th rank of Bard gives +2 DS total due to rounding on 1010 and 1014... So its worth picking up the 20th rank after song of Mirrors
The first 20 bard songs are simply better than the MnE counterparts, and should be prioritized first.


I created an Excel Spreadsheet that analyzes AS, DS, and CS for MnE/Bard Ranks.
I assume 1012 or 411 is used... whichever has the superior AS bonus
I assume 1014 is used, but not 1013... which could skew results.
I haven't really messed with google docs too much... but if it worked, the spreadsheet is here... because there's no way in hell I'm reformatting it as a table:

Measurement|Times when Bard 35 First is highest|Times When MnE 30 is Highest|Times when Bard20 - MnE 30 - Bard35 is Highest
AS|31|47|38
DS|27|22|43
CS|30|31|36
Total:|88|100|117

Note: Ties were counted for both winners.

Note: Emphasizing Minor Elemental before 1035 is also 100% dependent on being a SOLO player. If you have a pocket wizard, mana battery, and all other sorts of helpers available, the gap diminishes to a point of pure subjectivity. Multi-account builds can be VERY different than solo builds to maximize performance of a group. This guide is really only dealing with solo builds.

Also... as I mentioned early on, and feel like re-emphasizing... This is all about short-term gains. Everything evens out at the same after you have the 65 spell ranks.

[Whirlin]

Bard Builds
I'm going to use the same terms I used in my wizard guide for the different training plans, and differentiate between core training and discrete training
Core Training is everything you're going to train in every level... forever. No exceptions.
Discrete Training is stuff that you will max out, and never need to worry about again.
Discrete Training Prioritization This will be my subjective measurement of which to max out first, and why... Of course, entirely up for debate and prioritization by the player.


With that in mind, lets get it started!

The Polearm Bard
Why Polearms?
A lot of support for polearm bards actually lies within racial selection, which will be later on in this guide. Polearms have the highest Damage Factors at the cost of the highest DEX/AGL to use them without hindrance. Since they're also fairly heavy weapons in terms of poundage, the Sonic alternative is enhanced by offering the near weightless alternative. Given the eventual potency of tonic song, you're looking at swinging the highest DF weapon available in the minimum amount of time possible. It's basically an iWin button. Ohh... and the flares are nice too.

Polearm Bard Core Training
Very light, all things considered:
1x Combat Maneuvers (8/4)
2x Polearm Weapons (18/3)
1x Physical Fitness (4/0)
1x Dodging (6/6)
1x Harness Power (0/5)
1x Spell Research (0/17)
Total: (36/35)... which leaves a bit of wiggle room for additional training

Polearm Bard Discrete Training
1x Air Lore
60 Ranks in Armor Use
1x Perception
25 Ranks Mental Lore - Telepathy
Elemental & Mental Mana Control (subjective goals)
50 Ranks Climbing
50 Ranks Swimming
30/55 Multi-Opponent Combat Ranks
MIU

Polearm Bard Discrete Training Prioritization
Why didn't I just go in the order and add these notes above? Because screw you, that's why.

I recommend starting with the 25 ranks of Telepathy. Telepathy will increase spellsong duration by 3 seconds a rank. At level retarded, your spellsong duration is gonna suck... this is gonna make it not suck a little more quickly. Ohh... and 1007 AS boost, that's why we're stopping at 25.

But since you can only single in Mental Lores, you need something else to work on! While working on this, I recommend doing Armor Use up to 60 ranks. Having studied WAY too much about the damage equations, the impacts of armor, and therefore becoming an all around interesting guy at office parties, having good armor early on is the best thing you can do for yourself. 60 ranks in Armor will train off as much as you can for RT, Maneuver, and Bard Hinderance for Augmented Chain (ASG15). Also, it adds a LOT of potential for you to spend money on good armor ASAP, and settles down any variables for putting 1014 on yourself.

This will take you to your 40s or so on training. After this, I'd recommend powering in spell research until you unlock both 1020 and 430... These will likely be the highest return you can do for these levels for TPs.

At this point, training branches subjectively depending on your weapon, where you're hunting, and what you'd like to do.
If you don't have a good weapon, and you're using sonic gear, start on the Air Lore
If you're hunting in Rivers Rest, or Solhaven's tower, you may want to pick up Climbing/Swimming a bit earlier
If you're hunting things with maneuvers, it's probably a good time to start working on Perception
Multi-Op is fun... but it's more of a nice-to-have rather than a major training requirement.



The Sword and Board Bard
Why Sword and Board?
Much higher DS than a THW Build! Plus, Bard's Sonic Shield, even if we don't have shield maneuvers, are some generally overpowered, awesome shit. Tower Shield's blocking, but with the evasion reduction of a small shield (eventually)... that's badass.
A single weapon gives you the ability to do a small main hand weapon, and pimp out of air flares for the real damage.

Sword and Board Bard Core Training
1x Combat Maneuvers (8/4)
2x Edged Weapons (9/3)
1x Shield Use (5/0)
1x Physical Fitness (4/0)
1x Dodging (6/6)
1x Harness Power (0/5)
1x Spell Research (0/17)
1x Air Lore (0/8)
Total: (32/43)

Sword and Board Bard Discrete Training
60 Ranks in Armor Use
25 Ranks Mental Lore - Telepathy
1x Perception
Elemental & Mental Mana Control (subjective goals)
50 Ranks Climbing
50 Ranks Swimming
30/55 Multi-Opponent Combat Ranks
MIU

Sword and Board Training Differences from Sword/Board and Polearm
Most of the training is similar. I still recommend the same overall prioritization in the Discrete training... However, 1x Air Lore made Core Training due to the relative strength of sonic shield's air lore mechanic, and the reliance on air flares from a weapon for kill speed. Therefore it will take longer for the telepathy ranks relative to other builds.



The Brawlin' Bard

I know they exist out there... I see little value in a brawling Bard over alternative builds.
With the introduction of so monk and rogue UAC specific CMANs, and Minor Mental spell, neither of which Bards can directly access, I see the relative benefit greatly deteriorated for this class / weapon combination.
Don't get me wrong... feel free to play however you want to... but I don't really want to write up a section that I'd find little value to.



The Archer Bard
Why Archery?
Archery is one of the most overpowered attack forms in Gemstone at the moment. Maybe you have a badass 7x enhancive Longbow, maybe you need one that I happen to be selling. Or maybe you just want to be a little different. Archery Bards do lose out on a few bard-specific tools, but that doesn't completely diminish from being effective Archers. Is it the strongest Bard build? Probably not. Is it viable? Sure!

Archery Bard Core Training
2x Ranged Weapons (12/6)
1x Ambush (4/4)
1x Physical Fitness (4/0)
1x Dodging (6/6)
1x Harness Power (0/5)
1x Spell Research (0/17)
2x Perception (0/9)
Total: (26/47)

Archery Bard Discrete Training
60 Ranks in Armor Use
25 Ranks Mental Lore - Telepathy
Elemental & Mental Mana Control (subjective goals)
50 Ranks Climbing
50 Ranks Swimming
75 Ranks of Air Lore
1x Combat Maneuvers
MIU

Archery Differences from Other Physical Builds
You're spending a lot of MTP each level, from the 2x Perception, more on the weapon training, and more MTP from Ambush relative to Combat Maneuvers. The big differences in this build really falls in the Air Lore and spell training.
You're also not utilizing the double flaring potential of sonic weaponry. You WILL need to worry about disarming at a later level, and Air Lore is ONLY going to be beneficial for your 1035 roundtime reduction (ok, and maybe sonic armor deflection). Since aiming shots adds 1 RT, you'll need to eventually get 75 ranks of Air Lore for the maximum 1035 RT potency. However, this build is already VERY MTP intensive, its not going to be easy to balance all of the necessary training without sacrificing stat placement, or doing so much later in your bard career.

Since 1007 caps out it's AS benefit down at 17 ranks in Bard Circle, the only way to further your AS growth at a competitive rate will be investing heavily into Minor Elemental. You'll be trading .5 Dodge and .5 DS for .5DS, .5TD, .5AS from MnE.
However, 1040 is pretty overpowered in terms of keeping songs up, so gotta go that far, which at 1x spell research, will get you to 62 ranks in MnE. But hey, room for growth post-cap, right?



The Two Weapon Bard
Pardon me... I've never actually played TWC... but I've done some research, and I'm on a podium. Lets see what I can do.
Why TWC?
You know what's better than one sonic weapon that can flare twice in a hit? Swinging a sonic weapon and another ensorcelled flaring, awesome weapon AT THE SAME TIME. Seriously, you could be a whirlin dervish of death. It's pretty much as many flares as Brawling, but with more awesome and less setback. It's pretty much spamtastically awesome.

TWC is a more expensive build than Polearm in the pure TP aspect... and you still have the same additional training. Overall, this path opens up less additional training options, and it will take you much longer to reach all your training goals. However, have fun!

TWC Bard Core Training
2x Two-Weapon Combat (9/6)
2x Edged Weapons (9/3)
1x Combat Maneuvers (8/4)
1x Physical Fitness (4/0)
1x Dodging (6/6)
1x Harness Power (0/5)
1x Spell Research (0/17)
Total: (36/41)

TWC Bard Discrete Training
1x Air Lore
60 Ranks in Armor Use
1x Perception
25 Ranks Mental Lore - Telepathy
Elemental & Mental Mana Control (subjective goals)
50 Ranks Climbing
50 Ranks Swimming
30/55 Multi-Opponent Combat Ranks
MIU


The Pure Bard

Why Pure?
Melt... faces... With Instruments. Imagine playing the intro to Dragonforce: Through the Fire and Flames in a room of 50 Ithzir in OTF... BAM, their heads explode... Yes... that can be YOU! Also, the heavy training in Manipulation lore to be able to achieve this build without an instrument has the fringe benefit of bolstering the effects of 1004... Longer purification sessions for more silvers! Why not!

Pure Bard Core Training
2x Shield Use (15/0)
1x Dodge (6/6)
1x Physical Fitness (4/0)
1x Harness Power (0/5)
1x Spell Research (0/17)
Total: (25/22)

Pure Bard Discrete Training
75 Ranks Mental Lore - Manipulation
60 Ranks in Armor Use
Moar Spell Research!
75 Ranks Elemental Lore - Air
25 Mental Mana Control (subjective goals)
50 Ranks Climbing
50 Ranks Swimming
1x Perception
2x Brawling
Magic Item Use

Pure... Shield versus Runestaff
Alright, simmer down. I read quite a few threads here about Shield versus runestaff. If you want to use a Runestaff, you can, but you'll need more magical ranks per level to make it comparable. The best training/TP would be obtained through MIU and AS. However, you're going to be training heavily into mental stuff, so you're looking at running an MTP deficit. One rank of Arcane Symbols, and 1 rank of MIU is gonna end up costing 16/0. It's cheaper to get 2 ranks in shield use by 1 PTP. Additionally, from the pure bards I've talked to, while runestaff flares are nice and badass, the high crit-kill rate of 1030 renders the flares less effective.

The Air lore is for Sonic Shield's size reduction to maximize dodge training.

When to Pure
I get asked this a lot... Here's what I would recommend...
Once you have the TP to have 1030, 430, 60 ranks in Armor, while also being up to level in the core training and lores, you're probably good to convert over. If your stats are placed for mid tier growth (like, start to max out around 50-60 range), you can likely pull it off as early as level 40. Be warned though... your mana pool is gonna suck... big time.

The Mental Mana Control will help you last a little longer by utilizing Song of Unraveling (1013) on some magic items for more mana. But it makes a low level wizard look like a mana mine. Plus, not too many others besides Empaths would be trained in MMC, so finding a battery may be difficult.

Probably safest to wait til 60.

Pure CS Calculation and MnE versus Bard
Up to your level, Bard circle grants +1 CS
+1 to +20 over your level Bard circle grants +.75 CS
From +21 to +60, Bard Circle grants +.5 CS

425 adds +.5 CS Per rank up to 75 ranks.
Up to 2/3rd your level, and before 75 ranks, MnE grants .83 CS (.33 CS + .5 from 425)
From 2/3rd up to your level, MnE grants .6 CS (.1 CS + .5 from 425)


Simplified Maths Time
IF Bard Ranks < Level Then train Bard
If Bard Ranks = Level & MnE < 2/3 level Then train MnE
If Bard Ranks =< Level + 20 & MnE =2/3 Level, Then Train Bard
If Bard Ranks => Level +20 & MnE < 75, then train MnE
If Bard Ranks >= Level + 20 & MnE = 75, Then Train Bard.

That's all for this post!

[Whirlin]

Bard CMAN Selection
For Melee Bards
There are a few offensive CMANs that are kinda built for the different builds:
Polearms can use Charge
Sword and Board can use Shield Bash
TWC could benefit slightly from Spin Attack...?
Brawling Bards really don't get much benefit in the CMAN department offensively, all those good mastery skills are monk/rogue.

After capping out your best offensive CMAN, there's a lot of points to put towards defensive ones:
Bandits use Cheapshot, Tackle, Hamstring, Feint, Subdual Strike, Sweep...
Of course, Defensive CMANs include:
Combat Focus (+2 TD)... Effect relatively weakened due to Song of Noise to prevent spells.
Combat Movement (+2 DS)
Cunning Defense (+3 Combat Maneuver Defense)

Then of course, if you're a group hunter or MA'er, there's always Side-by-side... which is basically AS/DS boost when in groups.

For Ranged Bards
Mfire sucks... don't use it. You don't aim with Mfire, and it's not roundtime advantageous. It's a waste of CMAN points.
You WILL need to train in Disarm, unlike your melee counterparts. Since you don't have a sonic weapon, you're not immune to it, and getting disarmed WILL hurt you (lots).
Other than that, refer to the defensive CMANs to fill out any additional points.


DS Calculations
Alright, because there are a lot of options for Bard builds, I wanted to do some analysis of your defenses with the varying weapon types.


Calculation Assumptions and methods

For the sake of simplicity, and extrapolation, I'm going to highlight the equations of each build, and do a comparison of levels 20, 40, 60, 80, 100. (21, 41, etc ranks in skills)
I will not take into account any societal or spell bonuses, and for simplicity, I'm going to assume fully trained ASG15 for all calculations, even if it's impossible at level 20.
All unenchanted stuff.
I'm ignoring all stat bonuses in all equations, because I'm a lazy jerk.
All training will be in alignment with the aforementioned builds... so 1x Shield use on sword/shield, 1x Dodge on everything.
For which shield to use, I'm going to use the max available at your level, assuming that you're 1x in air lore, so -1 at 20, 50, 100
For TWC, I will assume a DS offhand like a Sai or Maine Gauche




By the Numbers: Calculations
This is kinda a dumping ground of formulae: (what kinda pretensions jerk writes it like that?... ohh wait... I'm Whirlin)
Dodge DS:
Dodge Rank + AGL bonus + Trunc (Int bonus/4) = Base Dodge
((Base Value * Armor Hindrance * Shield Factor) - shield size penalty) * Stance Mod = Dodge DS
Shield Factors:
Size|factor|Penalty
Small|.78|0
Medium|.70|0
Large|.62|5
Tower|.54|10
Stance Mods:
Stance|Mod
Offensive|.75
Guarded|.95
Defensive|1
Aug Chain, ASG 15 Hindrance Factor: .92

Shield Melee DS
I'm not doing more calculations for ranged DS, bite me.
Base Value: Shield Ranke + Trunc (STR Bonus/4) + Trunc (Dex Bonus /4)
((Base Value* Size Modifier * Stance Modifier)/1.5)+20 + Enchant Bonus

Shield Size|Shield Modifier
Small|.85
Medium|1
Large|1.15
Tower|1.3

Shield Stance|Mod
Offensive|.5
Guarded|.9
Defensive|1

Parry
Base Value = Weapon Ranks + Trunc (STR Bonus /4) + Trunc (DEX Bonus / 4) + (Weapon Enchant /2)
*THW and Polearm use Weapon Enchant (not halved)
Main Hand DS = (Base Value * Stance Mod) + Stance Bonus + weapon type bonus
Offhand DS = TWC Ranks + Trunc (STR Bonus/4) + Trunc(Dex Bonus/4) * Stance Bonus + 15


One/Main Hand Stance|Mod|Bonus
Offensive|.2|0
Guarded|.6|40
Defensive|.7|50

Off Hand Stance|Mod|Bonus
Offensive|.1|15
Guarded|.3|15
Defensive|.35|15

Polearm Stance|Mod|Bonus
Offensive|.27|15
Guarded|.81|67
Defensive|.94|80

THW Stance|Mod|Bonus
Offensive|.3|0
Guarded|.90|40
Defensive|1.05|50
(for completeness... I'm sure I'll copy/paste this for other guides)

Ranged
We're assuming Bow
Ranged Parry Melee DS: trunc([(Ranged Skill + trunc(perception ranks/2) + trunc(ambush ranks/2)] * Stance Modifier)) + Enchant Bonus + Stance Bonus.

Ranged Stance|Mod|Bonus
Offensive|.15|0
Guarded|.39|40
Defensive|.45|50



By the Numbers: The End Result!
I'm not showing my work... honestly, it's a massive excel file... Feel free to recalculate any values, and have fun doing it!

Offensive:
Build|Level 20|40|60|80|100
Polearm|40.83|65.43|90.03|114.63|139.23
TWC|42.09|67.89|93.69|119.49|145.29
Ranged|39.49|64.29|88.09|112.89|129.69
Sword/Shield|Medium 46.70|Medium72.13|Large 100.61|Large 127.04|Tower 158.52
Pure|Medium: 38.30|Medium 55.73|Large 76.21|Large 94.64|Tower 118.12


Guarded:
Build|Level 20|40|60|80|100
Polearm|119.37|169.25|219.13|269.01|318.89
TWC|111.15|164.63|218.11|271.59|325.07
Ranged|125.35|169.83|215.31|259.79|285.27
Sword/Shield|Tower 112.96|Tower 163.40|Tower 218.10|Tower 269.94|Tower 328.83
Pure|Tower 47.75|Tower 74.20|Tower 104.90|Tower 132.74|Tower167.63


Defensive:
Build|Level 20|40|60|80|100
Polearm|138.8|194.8|250.8|306.8|362.8
TWC|128.42|188.82|249.22|309.62|370.02
Ranged|146.32|196.72|246.12|296.52|323.92
Sword/Shield|Tower 129.58|Tower 186.32|Tower 247.55|Tower 305.76|Tower 371.41
Pure|Tower 50.18|Tower 78.92|Tower 112.15|Tower 142.36| Tower 180.01


DS Analysis
Holy crap, that took a while...
Ranged DS is so low, because you can really only afford 1x Ambush, otherwise it'd pretty much be +1/2 additional level to DS.
I'm a bit surprised at how beneficial Polearm DS is compared to THW. Superior across the board.
Pure DS is low! But it needs to be considered that as a pure, you'll be in Guarded/Defensive all the time, and offensive never/rarely.
I'm actually really impressed by the TWC DS theoreticals. I feel like years ago, it appeared to be lower than a TH build, but it's actually quite nice.
Sword/Board is always gonna be massive DS... but you're really just plinking critters to death. I mean, everyone would use a shield if DS was all that mattered.

[Whirlin]

Race and Stat Allocations
The following is a wonderful copy/paste job from my other guide, and will be referenced going forward!

Race|Strength | Constitution | Dexterity | Agility | Discipline | Aura | Logic| Intuition | Wisdom | Influence
Aelotoi |-5|0|5|10|5|0|5|5|0|-5|
Burghal gnome|-15|10|10|10|-5|5|10|5|0|-5|
Dark elf|0|-5|10|5|-10|10|0|5|5|-5|
Dwarf|10|15|0|-5|10|-10|5|0|0|-10|
Elf|0|0|5|15|-15|5|0|0|0|10|
Erithian|-5|10|0|0|5|0|5|0|0|10|
Forest gnome|-10|10|5|10|5|0|5|0|5|-5|
Giantman|15|10|-5|-5|0|-5|-5|0|0|5|
Half elf|0|0|5|10|-5|0|0|0|0|5|
Half krolvin|10|10|0|5|0|0|-10|0|-5|-5|
Halfling|-15|10|15|10|-5|-5|5|10|0|-5|
Human|5|0|0|0|0|0|5|5|0|0|
Sylvankind|0|0|10|5|-5|5|0|0|0|0|


RT and YOU!
Alright, so roundtime is simple! (kinda) There's the whole strength and encumbrance thing, which everyone knows, but then there's a DEXAGL thing. Basically, the sum of the bonuses of your Dex and Agility bonuses help reduce roundtime? How much? Well lets make a table!
RT Modifier|DexAglSum
-1|8 - 22
-2|23 - 37
-3|38 - 52
-4|53 - 67
-5|68 - 82
-6|83 - 96
-7|98 - 112
-8|113

Note: It's not plagiarism from Krakii if I change the column order!

So... that's a pretty interesting table, especially when paired up with the stat table above it. But... Lets break it down a little more. Each race has a theoretical maximum DEXAGL before enhancives that they can achieve. And that is below:

5 RT Reduction|4 RT Reduction|3 RT Reduction
Halfling|Aelotoi|Erithian
Burghal gnome|Dark elf|Human
Elf|Forest gnome|Dwarf
|Half-elf|Giantman
|Sylvankind|
|Half-krolvin|


Ok... so... what?

Basically, weapons have a minimum RT, and a base RT. Take the base RT, subtract out your DEXAGL, and BAM, you're at your new RT (assuming unencumbered).

So... Lets apply this... To the best weapons out there.

Weapon Type|Weapon Name|Base RT|Min RT
THW|Claid|8|5
THW|Battle Axe|8|5
Polearm|Lance|9|5
Polearm|Awl-Pike|9|5

So what? Basically, if you want to use a Lance with minimum RT, you can't be a Human, Dwarf, or Giantman, unless you're a secondary character, and dropping a ton into enhancives and/or using fusion stuffs rather than sonic.

You can grow into a lance if you're in the middle column... but your stats aren't really gonna be placed for growth, so, you're looking at fixstating.

Now onto Strength
Strength provides melee AS (If you didn't know that... welcome to Gemstone!). So lets take a look at each race that can have a decent DEXAGL, and compare their STR mods.

5 RT Reduction|STR Mod||4 RT Reduction|STR Mod
Halfling|-15||Aelotoi|-5
Burghal gnome|-15||Dark elf|0
Elf|0||Forest gnome|-10
|||Half-elf|0
|||Sylvankind|0
|||Half-krolvin|10



Multi-Song Stats
Review the first post for more info on the multi-song penalty. Picking a race specifically on multi-song penalty stats is stupid, as training in bard songs will naturally overcome multi-song penalty racial shortcomings. The only reason I'm including it is because I already did it, and I don't want to delete it.

DIS and LOG bonuses:
+15: Dwarf
+10: Aelotoi, Erithian, Forest Gnome
+5 Burghal Gnome, Human
0: Halfling
-5: Sylvan, Half-Elf, Giantman
-10: Dark Elf, Half Krolvin
-15: Elf

Pure CS
Aura, just like wizards.
Dark Elves with +10 Aura
Burger Gnomes and Elves with +5
Aelotoi, Erithian, Forest gnome, Half elf, Half krolvin, Human with 0
Giantman and Halfling with -5
Dwarf with -10

[Whirlin]

Societies

3 Societies to choose from! That which must not be named (and definitely not the Council of Light (COL)), Voln, and Guardians of Sunfist (GOS).
Each offers unique bonuses... blahblahblah, lets dive in.

COL
COL is the society for people that love hard maths. The society offers very little outside of the core AS/DS benefits... But those additional benefits are pretty nice mechanically.
Sign of staunching stops all bleeding for 1 mana
Sign of Healing is full Health for 2 spirit
Sign of wracking is full mana for 5 spirit
Sign of darkness is a teleport back to town for 6 spirit... can't use while stunned though.
We're talking about an overall gain of 35 AS, 35 DS, 20 Ranged/Spell DS, 15 TD.
Here's the catch... Keeping these signs up cost spirit. Here's the anti-catch... COL sign duration is 10 seconds per level. So at cap, we're talking about a duration of 16 minutes, 40 seconds. Even a dark elf could stagger his signs enough to regen the 3 spirit you use for AS/DS/TD, and still remain static (Barely). Although, a dark elf can't really do that before level 90.

Elves don't have good spirit regen... any of them. If you're a non-Elf, you're golden for the COL.

Overall, COL offers great abilities, low upkeep cost, but spirit can be burdensome for some race, and make it a non-attractive option.

GOS
Sunfist is an awesome competitor for society.
While less AS/DS than COL, at only +30 max. more TD than COL at +20, which Bards lack. Additionally, Heavy crit weighting on weapons towards hated foes... You know... whatever hated foes are.
On the defensive side, while they get -5 relative to COL, they also get Heavy Crit padding, which can either pimp out your physical armor even more, or make your sonic armor that much better.

For Bards, Crit Padding is a godsend, and here's my justification. You're likely not going to be in a situation where you're going to be plinked to death as a bard, because we have our 1040 get-out-of-jail-free card. So what's left that can kill us? Death Crits? What diminishes the changes of death crits? Crit padding.

Sigil of Power converts 50 stamina to 25 mana. Not bad... Overall, I've found CMAN points to be well spent in defensive maneuvers, so your stamina is free to be spent on things like this.

Sigil of Escape provides protection against Stun/web/binds/etc. It's a nice alternative to 1040.

Warcamping is badass, especially as a bard. Song of Noise can help protect you against the casters, and some of the other area-effect songs don't invoke the shroud. If you're 1x Perception, 1x Dodge, and 1x PF, with song of luck and song of noise, you're pretty good on the defensive side.

The downside to Sunfist is that their durations and costs are static. You're going to be spending a large amount of mana/stamina to keep sigils up throughout a hunt, and that's never really going to change. For the AS/DS boosts, you're looking at 22mana/27 Stamina per minute. Compared to the 6 mana for COL for 15 minutes. Thats a nice bajillion times the mana cost... Bards are basically converting mana into damage with 1030 or 1035... so the more mana we can keep, the better.

Voln
Voln was recently redone. It now offers +26 AS to all critters, +39 against undead, +26 DS, +13 TD.

Blessing is kinda worthless to us bards... Sonic weapons are perma-blessed... and although they're a low enchant, why bother lugging around an alternative?

Their Symbol of mana is attractive... 50 mana every 3 minutes. For a Dark Elf, you would need a mana pool of 417 before wracking is a better alternative. For a halfling, you'd only need a 208 mana pool.
(1 spirit per 5 minutes = 25 minutes for 5 spirit. Symbol of mana every 3 minutes = 8.33 symbols per 5 spirit = 416.66 mana...)

Symbol of dreams is nice, health/mana/spirit/stats recovery. Good to use post-death along with Symbol of Recall, which restores your spells after you die.

They have a lot of weird other abilities, like crazy 'standard success resolution' attacks.

Symbol of Return is like Sign of darkness... so kinda nets out there.

Additionally, Voln has some backdoor teleporting type system thingy where the back of their society is basically pocket portals to everywhere. One of which is the Rift. That's pretty cool... if you want to hunt in a scary scary place.

Voln's symbols work off favor, which you accumulate through hunting undead. This can be a pain for melee builds, as it either forces carrying around a new weapon, or reduces our AS. As a pure, favor doesn't matter. Most undead are the easiest things to hunt, and are really weak to magic, including songs.


By the Numbers
As a pure bard, I would recommend either COL or Voln, given the mana recovery capabilities, and Voln also has +CS against undead.
As a melee Bard, honestly, they're all good options

[nocturnix]

This space is worthless, move along.

[Taernath]

This space reserved for future praise or condemnation.

[Methais]

http://stillsound.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/outer-space-stars.jpeg

[oneillseanm]

Thanks for spending the time to put this together, Whirlin. It's extremely well-presented and extremely helpful. This month I'm returning after a two-year break (which is the latest in a succession of multi-year breaks [you think you're done for good and then one day ...]) and have been using this guide as my main resource while building up my bard from scratch.

I've got one question for you. In the polearm build section you say:
60 ranks in Armor will train off as much as you can for RT, Maneuver, and Bard Hinderance for Augmented Chain (ASG15). Also, it adds a LOT of potential for you to spend money on good armor ASAP, and settles down any variables for putting 1014 on yourself.Would you explain what you were saying in the second sentence? The first half of it sounds pro-physical armor while the second half sounds pro-sonic armor.

Thanks again!

[Whirlin]

Thanks for spending the time to put this together, Whirlin. It's extremely well-presented and extremely helpful. This month I'm returning after a two-year break (which is the latest in a succession of multi-year breaks [you think you're done for good and then one day ...]) and have been using this guide as my main resource while building up my bard from scratch.

I've got one question for you. In the polearm build section you say:Would you explain what you were saying in the second sentence? The first half of it sounds pro-physical armor while the second half sounds pro-sonic armor.

Thanks again!

Both are pro-Armor!

While you're still working on armor training, the maximum armor that you can wear will vary on a level per level basis... So at 18 Ranks, you can wear Cuirbouilli Leather with minimal hindrance, but then 6 fast levels later at 23 ranks, you can wear Studded Leather with minimal hindrance. Reaching the 60 ranks ASAP calms that down. You won't need to continue to monitor your armor use versus maximum potential armor. No more buying a new set of 4x armor every 6 levels to keep your AvD and protection maxed.

This means you can settle down and buy that nice piece of physical Augmented chain, or you will just ALWAYS be using sing 15 after prepping 1014. It just removes a variable that you need to monitor. It's one more thing to completely check off the list.

[Zelas]

I'll agree here. While sonic armor has it's drawbacks, it's a great way to get into end-of-life armor without big expenditures. Get some good aug chain and locker it until you can wear it effectively. Armor failures suck and usually result in your character dying, but hey something's gotta kill you.

Also, great guide Whirlin thanks for adding this information to the tribal knowledge database.

I'm wondering if you've ever done a ranged build? With 1002 and 1005 I'm guessing that when you can target eyes it'd be effective.

Zelas

[Whirlin]

The guide is still very much a work in progress... of course

I'm debating writing up a ranged build for Bard... They do have access to 402, and 404, which assist in aiming. But that's kinda where the weapon advantage ends. There is a relative weakness with the lack of an effective sonic weapon, unlike hurling, you can't even sing up a sonic arrow. This reduces the incentive to train in air lore, which basically means you're just training in it for 1035's roundtime reduction, and maybe sonic armor. Hell, wouldn't even have to go too high in the bard circle as a result.

I can definitely write it up, and now that I've thought it through, I might... But it also highlights that I need to write up some sorta hurling guide as well... Because at least with hurling, you can hurl a sonic spear if you want... mana intensive, but pretty damn Zeus badassery.

[oneillseanm]

Awesome. Thanks for the explanation. I totally see what you were saying now.

While we're on the topic, is sonic armor viable early on? Assuming I don't have a flashy set of something, is there any reason not to start using sonic?

[Zelas]

I did some preliminary research with hurling sonic spears and you are right, it's the wrath of god. 3 sec rt, 7x hurled weapon with flares, mana intensive, but would be a hell of a ride, maybe 2x harness power to help. CoL for wracking, plus you could 1030 if needed for mobs. Add aiming and yeah, good times. Add an aegis and you ARE a Greek god! Maybe tp intensive but that's a hell of a combination especially if you also have polearms for melee.

I used sonic armor until about 50 trains until I had some good aug chain. It's viable.

[Suppressed Poet]

I love sonic armor, but I don't use it for a couple of reasons... 1) it can be dispelled and that is absolutely awful. True that can be easily mitigated with some arcane decoy, but still. 2) if you are stunned or immobilized at the worst time when your songs fail to renew, it drops. I had this happen to me a few times where I didn't shout out of the stun or just wasn't clocking my renewals. I died those times when I likely would have survived had I not gone from 7x augmented chain to 0x robes.

I ended up buying some 4x hcp fusion chain and brought it up to 5x. Plan to get it max lightened but it hasn't been an issue since I am a giant. I had to sell all my toys to get that armor and good agidex orbs for a lance build, but I'm happy with that choice and know I made the right decision. 1012 is simply too good to consider using anything else, except MAYBE something super highend. 1009 is always the best choice if you use a shield because of the size reduction to dodge penalty. 1014 is good, but situational or temporary fix to buying good real armor in my opinion. The fact that armor can not be stolen from you and is really a permanent thing as long as you wear it makes my decision even easier.

Just my 2 cents in regards to sonic armor...

[Whirlin]

I recommend Sonic Armor while you're leveling... absolutely... The ability to change it on a dime the second that you get the armor ranks is absolutely vital...

What suppressed Poet was saying is absolutely true... However, I would argue that in ANY circumstance where you're stunned and lose your spellsongs, you're likely going to die. You're looking at 20 DS from being stunned, 10 from 1003, 15-20 from 1010, 20+ from 1019... That's already -~70, and then if you're using a sonic weapon, BAM, even more. Basically, if you're stunned through a renew cycle, you're fucked. But that's why 1040 exists, and another reason those first 25 ranks in Telepathy are so important for the renewal time.

Another strong case for using physical armor is the lack of renewal cost. You're likely already keeping enough songs up to have a nasty multi-song penalty, so that's additional mana that you can use towards 1035 or 1030, ie: damage. Even moreso if you're using a sonic weapon and that poofs on you too!



Similarly, the same case exists for weapons as well, except without that variable of using 10 different weapons between levels 1 and 40(ish). I personally, am using a +32 Physical flare with MoC Trip add-on, Troll bane Lance. I think I picked it up for... 5m maybe? Which is a damn good deal in my opinion. Since I went the 1020 > 430 >1000* route, that'll outclass the AS bonus from 1012 until level 74. This also frees up TPs, as I won't need to start training in air lore until 60s to catch up to 1x training, and it allows me to prioritize some other stuff.

[Suppressed Poet]

Likely to die from loss of DS, sure. But as you said, we have 1040. What killed me a couple times was shit I'm stunned, shit my songs just failed, shit I just was crit hit in the chest and instantly died - in very quick succession. Had I had my armor in that last part - I would have likely just had a health loss and had time to react and break free. Some other frustrations, once I simply forgot to cast 1014 before a hunt and another time in darkstone I didn't catch that it was randomly dispelled with the area's effect. With proper care, sonic armor is great and can be used all the way through cap. It just wasn't for me.

Just been my personal experience. And while it's nice being 25% of normal armor weight plus the elemental resistances - I'd rather just have padding. Plus as Whirlin mentioned, It's another slot towards multi song penalty plus the upkeep cost.

I do agree on using a regular weapon as well up until you can afford using your sonic with mana costs and get to the mid-level game. At some point you have to start worrying about creatures disarming though, and I don't think I can swallow losing a valuable weapon. I used a 7x perfect unbalance flaring falchion from about 30 trains up until about 50. At that point, and depending what I hunted, I found my sonic weapon surperior in most cases. (I was full 1x bard songs and air lore).

And at some point, every weapon swinging bard has to look at the fact they can use a free 7x weightless weapon that has awesome double flares beyond anything you can buy, and works against undead as a permablessed 2x weapon. It can't be disarmed. It will never be lost or stolen. How much would that sell for as a real weapon?!? It seems to me almost sacreligous for a bard to use anything else after the early levels.

[Leigo]

Thanks for the bard guide, please tell us about races and stat placement. I was curious about what race would be good to do a polebard until later in life then switch to pure.

[Stretch]

tl;dr

Spend 30 days with high Agi/Dex/Log swinging a claidhmore to get to level 15-20. Use 4x armor and save your mana.

Do whatever you want to get to level 38-40. Fixskill to pure. Pwn.

[lordsmo]

Please continue these guides, I enjoy reading them.

There is I believe, a typo, however.... you say 25 or 55 ranks of MOC, but I imagine you mean 30 or 55. (35 is also a decent place to stop, or maybe 60).

Otherwise, carry on.

[Jace Solo]

Is 40 an appropriate level to move to Pure? Damn it! Stop diddling your bow and finish the guide!

[Jeril]

You can do it at 40, but it is better to wait until you hit 50.

[Leigo]

Spin attack or feint during your claid days?

tl;dr

Spend 30 days with high Agi/Dex/Log swinging a claidhmore to get to level 15-20. Use 4x armor and save your mana.

Do whatever you want to get to level 38-40. Fixskill to pure. Pwn.

[Jeril]

While using a claid it doesn't really matter. You'd probably get more use and more fun out of spin attack because most low level creatures don't really require a set up like feint to kill them. Just let them swing at you then take their faces off.

[cwolff]

Doing a Polearm build with stats set to max at cap so TP's are tight at lvl 15. What's more important, EMC or Elore:air? Training at .5x EMC and 0 Elore:air right now.

[Jeril]

Air lore, you can completely ditch EMC unless you have some weird driving need to share mana with other people.

[oneillseanm]

With TPs being tight I think Whirlin's suggestion of skipping them both altogether is a pretty good one. Neither is going to do you much good at this point. You can pick them up later.

[Whirlin]

Exactly what One said... No reason to get either at your level.... you're better off overtraining in armor use until you hit 60 ranks, or picking up Telepathy if you're not.

Also, as far as I could tell, EMC is not used as a check in any Bard Spell (maybe 418...), whereas MMC (same cost) is factored into Song of Unraveling... So MMC would be better to train in than EMC.

[oneillseanm]

Whirlin - how would you change the training progression for a polearm bard backed by a full spellup team? I'm guessing spell path would be different. Would it? Would much else?

[Whirlin]

If you have a full line of spellups and stuff available, I'd also likely do a bit more MIU earlier on. This would be to use Haste imbeds... unless you're gonna have them follow you around.

If the eventual goal is to hunt together, maybe prioritize a little mana sharing. For CMANs you can pick up Side-by-side... I mean, there's a lot of little tweaks you can make. Ohh, and of course, the spell circle training would be different since you wouldn't really be benefiting from 401, 406, 414

[oneillseanm]

Interesting ideas. Would you go straight up the bard circle to 1035? Or do you think it would be worth hitting 425 and 430 earlier?

[Whirlin]

Probably hit 1035 earlier. Especially if you're gonna pick up mana sharing, and have another character follow you around. The marginal increases from increasing the potency of 1010 and 1019, and maybe 1014/1012 if you use them, would likely outweigh the benefits of 425/430 given that there would be no increases from 401/406/414.

[oneillseanm]

Cool. I can definitely buy into that. Makes sense. Thanks for sharing.

[Whirlin]

Many updates to various sections. Race selection recommendations soon, and societal sections soon.

[Whirlin]

Gonna add in one more section on the third post (CMAN) section... regarding defenses of various builds side-by-side for comparison purposes. Then I'm gonna file this guide as Done, ask for a sticky, and move onto the next guide. If there are any questions, or gaps in the guide, let me know.

[Whirlin]

I'm out
::drop the mic::

[oneillseanm]

::slow clap::

[Ohr]

Quick question on my bard, he is almost 78 and looking at 75 ranks of bard spell and 45 ranks of MnE, as a pure bard, should I have more bard spell rank? I have no trouble blowing up anything or everything in Mino right now but just kind of planning Ahead

Thanks ahead on any inputs.

Ohr

[Whirlin]

Quick question on my bard, he is almost 78 and looking at 75 ranks of bard spell and 45 ranks of MnE, as a pure bard, should I have more bard spell rank? I have no trouble blowing up anything or everything in Mino right now but just kind of planning Ahead
Ohr

Thanks for the question, you actually just pointed out an issue with the OP, that has been adjusted:


Pure CS Calculation and MnE versus Bard
Up to your level, Bard circle grants +1 CS
+1 to +20 over your level Bard circle grants +.75 CS
From +21 to +60, Bard Circle grants +.5 CS

425 adds +.5 CS Per rank up to 75 ranks.
Up to 2/3rd your level, and before 75 ranks, MnE grants .83 CS (.33 CS + .5 from 425)
From 2/3rd up to your level, MnE grants .6 CS (.1 CS + .5 from 425)


Simplified Maths Time
IF Bard Ranks < Level Then train Bard
If Bard Ranks = Level & MnE < 2/3 level Then train MnE
If Bard Ranks =< Level + 20 & MnE =2/3 Level, Then Train Bard
If Bard Ranks => Level +20 & MnE < 75, then train MnE
If Bard Ranks >= Level + 20 & MnE = 75, Then Train Bard.

That's all for this post!

As a pure, your goal is simply CS Maximization. 1030 is actually a kind of unique spell, as the damage factor is a very straightforward .6 compared to the endroll, so every +1 endroll will be +.6 damage. To benchmark, that's only .025 below claid against cloth.

Your bard ranks should always be equal to your level.
Once that is done, your next best CS/Spell Research rank would be obtained from MnE up to 2/3rds your level... In your case, 50 ranks. (while keeping Bard = Level)
After that, start over training Bard circle, until Bard Circle = Level + 20 ranks... While keeping MnE = 2/3rds of your level.
By then, you're post cap, and melting face.

[Tenlaar]

I wasn't paying much attention to the boards when this was posted so I just saw it. All in all a great guide but there a few points I think are worth mentioning concerning the pure bard and GoS.

Just concerning GoS, I don't think it can be stressed (or is stressed in your guide) how much sigil of concentration actually does for a bard. After level 20ish your songs will be lasting long enough to get a couple of pulses between them, which is 10 mana back from concentration. It is a huge boon for maintaining songs at the lower levels especially, but even super-capped that alone offsets a huge chunk of renewal costs in a completely passive manner.

Sigil of escape is better for a bard than any other profession for one simple reason. The combination of 1040 and escape allows you to use it in very bad situations without worrying about being dropped somewhere else in the hunting area in worse shape than you were before you used it.

As to sigil costs, being pure means that right off the bat you only need the DS boosting sigils which drops the cost of maintaining them quite a bit. Honestly, my capped shattered bard generally only kept sigil of defense and concentration on all the time. The more expensive DS boosters I simply used situationally. The rest of my stamina went towards sigil of power - which is my favorite of the mana regen societal abilities because it is so set it and forget it. A simple script that fires one off when stamina is over 50 and mana is below 75% is all you ever need for it.

In the hands (in the...mouth?) of a pure bard, because of the manip training, 1002 becomes insanely good. Generally speaking, at higher levels, every - every - cast of it will pop a non-magical weapon. It becomes so much more than a "decent opener." It becomes a true attack spell. I firmly believe that the amount of one shot crit kills and the added safety of removing enemy weapons for 2 mana makes it worth opening with against gear-carrying enemies even at cap. I found that a shot of 1002 and a shot of 1030 was just as likely to kill an enemy as two shots of 1030. I wish I had saved some logs of my bard group killing in a warcamp with a sonic runestaff and 101 ranks of air lore, it is absolutely redonk. He didn't need to cast anything else, just a shot of 1002 on everything that stepped into the room. The combination of weapon pops and constant flares puts out remarkable damage and death crits that he could keep going all day and all night long and leaves plenty of mana to keep 1035 (again, with 101 air lore - dodge city!) going all the time or to throw out an open 1030 or two whenever needed to clear out the room.

I think that's about all I've got after my initial perusal.

[EDubbs]

Can brawling bards get some love in your guide?

Here's some food for thought ... flaring gauntlets + sonic brawler + feras/other flaring weapon. That's a shit ton of flares. If you use feras, which you find often enough while out, you're only getting flares from that weapon like 1 out of every 3 hits or so. It makes feras much more useful as it will last a lot longer. It doesn't degrade on every swing, but only when the flares activate, and then you have the chance of your gauntlets, or sonic weapon flaring, or double flaring. You can usually find them at the pawn shop, and off creatures regularly enough to constantly hunt like this ... Double flares happen pretty often. Triple flares happen too. Song of tonis makes you a flaring whirlwind of doom. You can actually get a flare off every swing without your feras degrading all that much. You can use 1 feras weapon per hunt, or just use a normal flaring weapon, and then just bust the feras out for emergencies, or when you're weighted down. It really takes feras weapons to a different level of usefulness.

Here's some more food for thought. Hunting in mixed undead/living areas, with blessed footwraps + sonic weapon. Use jabs/punches + spells for living, and throw in kicks for undead too. It saves on getting blesses, and adds some extra punch (or should I say kick?) when you need it. I know sonic weapons take care of hunting undead for all swinger types, but you'll receive an extra +10 from standard 4x foot wraps, which can make a big difference coupled with the tier bonus.

Its a really smooth transition to pure for emergency swarms only when you're on the lower end of levels ... ~40s. Disarm yourself without losing DS, then break out the instrument, and let loose some sonic wrath. At those levels, you only want to use 1030 for swarms anyway because of mana issues, but it can really be a saving grace. 7 critters could be on you all of a sudden, and then with one fell swoop, 3 are dead, and the rest are stunned.

Ok, compare with a polearm bard ... Granted, you could use a 1 handed instrument, but its not as effective at low levels where you don't have the manipulation ranks. You're likely able to use song of tonis, and you might be able to mstrike 3 critters at once. That'll still end up with 1 or 2 dead, and the other stunned, but you're still swinging slower than 1 second, and 3x+ flares with chance of sonic double flares with 1 second swings will keep everything stunned. You're less likely to get into the situation where you're facing 7 critters at once, because you're just that much more lethal, but being a brawler there is a strategy to swing with a double flaring sonic weapon, off-hand feras, and then have a macro to ditch the feras, and bring out a 1 handed instrument, and lay down some sonic disruption. Your training costs are much cheaper with brawling, so you could 2x spells when you can, which helps out a lot.

Just on the training costs alone, you could up manipulation lore, and 1002 becomes so much more dangerous. When I group with people, I don't even swing anymore. I just pop weapons and shields with 1002, and let my friends finish off everyone. Trust me, everyone I group with LOVES when their foes lose shield DS, and the use of their weapon. 50% of the time, it'll end up stunned or dead. If I was a polearm build, I couldn't do this for another 10 trains at least.

A brawling build with NO cman training means you can 2x spells, and you can hit 430, and 1030 by 30 trains. 425 = +25 as vs 1x cman = 12.5 as ... Not to mention what it does to your warding abilities. 425 opens up doors like crazy, especially when you get it young. Sit at 430 for a while, and just 1x spells, or 0x spells, and work up the cmans, and just own everything. I know, you can do this with any build, but brawling is REALLY cheap. 9/3 vs 18/3 polearm.

A brawl build doesn't have lance DFs, but really, it is a cool build. It isn't as brutal as OHE, or as safe as OHE + shield, but between not needing to lose DS from grabbing things, or from switching to instruments, or being able to be open-handed to increase hunting xp absorption, there are just a lot of situation-based cool things/versatility to being a brawling bard that don't really add up when you look at damage per minute, or DF, or DS.

Yeah we don't have bolt ds, but we can either blow up a weapon of an archer, or song of noise to disarm a wizard. Yeah, polearm, or OHE+shield guys can do that too, or don't even need to, but can they have ds from 430, and CS from being 1x bard base to really count on that move? Not at 35 trains, I'll tell you that for sure. Granted, you can't do that to every critter, but by 40, with maybe sigil of concentration, you're a hell of a lot closer to counting on those moves than either the polearm or OHE guy.

Granted, OHE+shield vs brawl + dodge/shield is more or less even in TPs, but brawl + dodge means 2 weapons when it counts with no DS loss, 1 weapon + instrument with no DS loss, no weapon with 2 handed instrument with no ds loss. It means being able to keep a blessed weapon equipped to kick at no cost for swinging against living critters. It means grabbing stuff off the ground without trouble. It means upping flares via feras offhand at a moments notice. Its a whole lot of added versatility. It's a really fun build to play.

[Whirlin]

Can brawling bards get some love in your guide?

Here's some food for thought ... flaring gauntlets + sonic brawler + feras/other flaring weapon. That's a shit ton of flares.
Using multiple flaring items reduces the chance of flaring on each item. I'm not sure of the overall tests, but the initial anecdotal response was that it appeared to decrease flare rate of 50% on both item and gauntlets, netting the same end result. The only difference is that it LOOKS more impressive when the stars align and you get a triple flare. It's not a substantial mechanical benefit to overcome the lack of brawling based CMANs, and to outshine a TWC build.



If you use feras, which you find often enough while out, you're only getting flares from that weapon like 1 out of every 3 hits or so.
I'm clearly retorting as I go... but since Feras normally flares 100% of the time, this would hint a 66% decrease in flare chance when stacking, which would be an overall decrease in damage per swing due to a decrease in flare rate when stacking multiple items, and overall decreased efficiency.



Song of tonis makes you a flaring whirlwind of doom.

With the exception of pure builds, Song of Tonis makes every bard a flaring whirlwind of doom.



Here's some more food for thought. Hunting in mixed undead/living areas, with blessed footwraps + sonic weapon. Use jabs/punches + spells for living, and throw in kicks for undead too.
Stopping there... Sonic weapons are permablessed... This point is moot.



Its a really smooth transition to pure for emergency swarms only when you're on the lower end of levels ... ~40s. Disarm yourself without losing DS, then break out the instrument, and let loose some sonic wrath.
I'm not sure why this build would have more discretionary training points than any other bard build to give it an edge over a pure physical for 1030 CS. I mean... Perhaps if you weren't training in TWC as a brawler bard, because you don't have brace, so you don't really need that offhand parry... ohh wait... that's another disadvantage of Bard Brawlers...



Ok, compare with a polearm bard ... You're less likely to get into the situation where you're facing 7 critters at once, because you're just that much more lethal, but being a brawler there is a strategy to swing with a double flaring sonic weapon, off-hand feras, and then have a macro to ditch the feras, and bring out a 1 handed instrument, and lay down some sonic disruption. Your training costs are much cheaper with brawling, so you could 2x spells when you can, which helps out a lot.
Well, now you're also comparing a polearm bard with a 1 handed instrument versus a brawling bard with a 1 Handed instrument. If the goal is just to disable everything in the room using 1030, then the result would be the same either way. But to free up that many TPs to be 2x in spells, what are you not training? Combat maneuvers? Armor use? Perception? In the scenario you raised, 7 critters in the room, the FoF with the Brawler's lack of MoC would likely be the death of him if he missed a single critter with 1030, whereas the Polearm with 2-3 strikes, can at least partially offset those penalties. So while you may have a higher DS in defensive with an instrument out as a brawler relative to a polearm user, the FoF may diminish that benefit.



Just on the training costs alone, you could up manipulation lore, and 1002 becomes so much more dangerous. When I group with people, I don't even swing anymore. I just pop weapons and shields with 1002, and let my friends finish off everyone. Trust me, everyone I group with LOVES when their foes lose shield DS, and the use of their weapon. 50% of the time, it'll end up stunned or dead. If I was a polearm build, I couldn't do this for another 10 trains at least.

Why not? Just bipass telepathy lore for manipulation for 1002 potency. You lose some AS, but hey, it seems like 1002 potency is more important to you.



A brawling build with NO cman training means you can 2x spells, and you can hit 430, and 1030 by 30 trains. 425 = +25 as vs 1x cman = 12.5 as ... Not to mention what it does to your warding abilities. 425 opens up doors like crazy, especially when you get it young. Sit at 430 for a while, and just 1x spells, or 0x spells, and work up the cmans, and just own everything. I know, you can do this with any build, but brawling is REALLY cheap. 9/3 vs 18/3 polearm.

It's easy to bipass CMAN training as a brawler, as there are no brawling CMANs that Bards can unlock to increase the effectiveness of your build.

Like I mentioned up above... you're also missing out on TWC training which buffs Brawling DS and assists in parrying. And the additional 9 PTPs? First rank of spell is 0/17... so second rank is 0/34... which would be 68 physical... so that's not magically raising discretionary TP from 1x to 2x spells... that's adding 1 spell per 8 levels. You simply prioritized discretionary TPs towards spells earlier subjectively. Which is fine... that's one of the potentials I highlighted... I'd still prioritize hitting 60 ranks in armor first, but whatever you want. It's kinda hard to mess up a bard.



A brawl build doesn't have lance DFs, it isn't as brutal as OHE, or as safe as OHE + shield

I still find very little true advantages of this build for this class.



Granted, OHE+shield vs brawl + dodge/shield is more or less even in TPs, but brawl + dodge means 2 weapons when it counts with no DS loss, 1 weapon + instrument with no DS loss, no weapon with 2 handed instrument with no ds loss. It means being able to keep a blessed weapon equipped to kick at no cost for swinging against living critters. It means grabbing stuff off the ground without trouble. It means upping flares via feras offhand at a moments notice. Its a whole lot of added versatility. It's a really fun build to play.
I'm not sure how long you hold things in your hands while there are critters in the room... but the entire selling point of your build is, "Hold something in your offhand without losing DS"... I mean... if you REALLY have that many problems with it, that's a whole other issue that I really don't think I can help you with. While looting, I think I have something in my offhand for about.... .005 seconds or so. Even when manually looting, it's a two line macro with one wizard hotkey:
get \? \r
put \? in my cloak\r

Prompts once for the item, and then executes both lines instantly.


Like I highlighted in my OP. Bards do not have access to brawling specific CMANs which raise pretty much every aspect of brawling's effectiveness, they don't have native access to the minor mental spell circle which has at least Brace, which is pretty much a godsend to brawlers, and flaring potency, by your own post, is nerfed about 66% when using two flaring items. 33% + 33% compared to 100% is a bit less in total frequency.


So, I decided to take it one step further. in my analysis.

I did a quick simulation of a bard with 66 starting in all stats, which nets 43/46 per level. For simplicity, this is assuming 0 stat growth, actual observed levels would be lower.

Core Polearm build costs 36/35 Resulting in additional 7/11 per level. You could unlock 1030 and 430 by level 43
Core Sword/Board costs 32/43 Resulting in additional 11/3 per level. You could unlock 1030 and 430 by level 48
Core TWC costs 36/41. Resulting in additional 7/5 per level. You could unlock 1030 and 430 by level 48

Equation used:
=Level+TRUNC(((Extra PTP*Level/2)+Level*Additional MTP)/34)
Look for when total >=60

[Ohr]

Sorry if this was already answered in the guide, I might of missed. Is worth it for a pure bard to train In brawling for extra defense, specially with bad stun and couldn't renewal sonic shield, or the points are better spend on more spell ranks/ dodge. My bard is lvl 80.


Thanks ahead.

[Whirlin]

Sorry if this was already answered in the guide, I might of missed. Is worth it for a pure bard to train In brawling for extra defense, specially with bad stun and couldn't renewal sonic shield, or the points are better spend on more spell ranks/ dodge. My bard is lvl 80.

Thanks ahead.

The short answer is that it'll help... but you'll be reducing your hunting ability a lot to spend that much TP on brawling.
Also, I'm not sure if it'd help you to the point where you wouldn't die if you're stunned during a renewal cycle.

Remember though, we have 1040 to get out of those stuns, and if you're hunting something where long stuns are possible, you can always manually renew with a minute or so left to provide some overlap.

I think you have a variety of options that you can do to minimize the risks associated with long stuns impacting a renewal cycle, without resorting to reallocating TPs.

I can quantify this a little more later... and by later, I mean after the weekend.

[Jeril]

Hey Whirlin, hows that sorc guide coming along?

[Whirlin]

Hey Whirlin, hows that sorc guide coming along?

Definitely one of my best ones yet. I've just been a bit too busy to post any of it here.

Copying and pasting is hard :(

[Ohr]

Very good point Whirlins, I had not thought the impact 1040 has on stun, thanks again and keep up the good work. Looking forward to the sorc guide, your wiz guide was a good read as well.

[Suppressed Poet]

Whirlin - read your build guide again in detail as I'm entertaining the idea of ranged...

Why train in ambush?

It doesn't help with open aiming and the AS benefits don't seem worth it until maybe way post cap. What am I missing...DS?

[cwolff]

Open Ambushing (ambushing without hiding)

Ambushing without hiding is modified by ranks in Combat Maneuvers and Ambush skill only (barring of course different players having different STATS that could affect this skill).
The more Combat Maneuvers ranks you get, the less Ambush ranks you will need to see the relative maximum benefit of the skill. Even at level 50 with 2x CM ranks you will start to hit a plateau of diminishing results with the Ambush skill on open aiming, even with large weapons.

I think it helps out at low levels, then tapers off in the mid levels presumably because your cman ranks will provide the ability to AIM well.

[Suppressed Poet]

Also, if you can find the time and are willing to do so...

Could you run one of those fancy excel tables for ranged and bolt DS for the various builds (pure, polearm, one handed/shield, twc, thw) across each stance per 20 levels? Same in taking out or equaling variables like stats, spells, etc.

Since I switched to my lance build from one handed/shield, I really haven't hunted in areas to worry about either bolts or ranged. I've heard everyone say how much it sucks but curious to see the numbers.

[Suppressed Poet]

I think it helps out at low levels, then tapers off in the mid levels presumably because your cman ranks will provide the ability to AIM well.

I read a krakiipedia saved post that perception is the only skill that helps with aiming from the open. I'm fairly certain cmans do nothing. Again, I have no game experience so could be wrong there.

Edit to add: think we are talking two different things. I mean for a ranged build - not melee.

[Whirlin]

Also, if you can find the time and are willing to do so...

Could you run one of those fancy excel tables for ranged and bolt DS for the various builds (pure, polearm, one handed/shield, twc, thw) across each stance per 20 levels? Same in taking out or equaling variables like stats, spells, etc.

Since I switched to my lance build from one handed/shield, I really haven't hunted in areas to worry about either bolts or ranged. I've heard everyone say how much it sucks but curious to see the numbers.

Yes, I'll create an excel file for that and host it somewhere... maybe google docs... easier than writing a sorc guide.

Yes, Ambush training seems minor for a ranged build... however, it helps keep ranged AS competitive, and it is simply a way to train for additional DS. I mean, think about a polearm build, what would you give for an extra +1 AS once you already have an easy to obtain 10x weapon?

Ohh, and yeah, Ambush is worth the same as perception on the DS side. It's really comparable to perception.

[Suppressed Poet]

Thanks Whirlin.

So..can you get by pre cap (if I were to try it I'd be in the 60s range) skipping ambush and just doing 2x perception? As you stated, mtps would be tight and that would save me 4/4 a level. I'm just trying to guage if ambush has to be core training or if I would be better off using those points towards more spells for comparable DS + all the other benefits spell training provides.

[Whirlin]

Thanks Whirlin.

So..can you get by pre cap (if I were to try it I'd be in the 60s range) skipping ambush and just doing 2x perception? As you stated, mtps would be tight and that would save me 4/4 a level. I'm just trying to guage if ambush has to be core training or if I would be better off using those points towards more spells for comparable DS + all the other benefits spell training provides.

You're gonna be mental starved. Really the only other way for you to generate DS will be from the 2nd dodge rank (at 12/12), Ambush 1st rank (4/4), or spell research rank at (0/34)... If we align these all to PTP, since you're likely MTP starved when putting in lores/etc... we're looking at Dodge costing 36, Ambush costing 12, and Research costing 68.

So... we need to analyze the DS per rank of each... (we only care about offensive... which HIGHLY benefits magic)
Ambush, we're getting .5 base points per ambush rank, with a stance factor of .15... so we're only really getting .075 DS per rank. wow... much lower than I was anticipating.
Dodge, we're subject to .92 for asg15, and .75 for offensive, yielding .69 DS per rank
Spells, we're looking at .5 DS from 1010, and .5 dodge from 1019. But that .5 dodge becomes .345 DS for a total of .845

Now lets divide by TPs. Dodge costing 36, Ambush costing 12, and Research costing 68.
Ambush: .075 / 12 = .00625
Dodge: .69 / 36 = .01917
Spell: .845 / 68 = .01243
Spell w/ Sonic Armor: =.01978 (Slightly higher than dodge!)

So... if you want to spend the TPs directly on DS, it turns out Dodge is actually the best thing to train in if you're an archer... Assuming no sonic armor and under level in bard ranks

For additional AS, even if we go ahead and try to factor in the first 25 ranks by saying every 3 levels of ambush you'll get 1 AS, that's still 36 PTP compared to 136 PTP for spells to generate 1 AS. (2 ranks MnE)

It's all a subjective spectrum:
Ambush generates both AS/DS more efficiently than Spell Research
Dodge generates DS more efficiently than Ambush
Spell Research offers a variety of non-evaluated benefits such as spellsong duration, CS, etc...

[Suppressed Poet]

Good stuff. Really looking at that, all three options seem like too much investment of points vs marginal gains. Maybe instead I should pickup manipulation lore ranks for more kill power and option for targeted strikes with 1030. With the points I could get .75 ranks per level in lores and that's 45 ranks @ 60. That gives me some great options with 1002&1030 vs undead and non crittable foes. Given my Bard CS would be lower than other builds because I'd have to scale my spell training more towards MnE...ahh this is making my head hurt.

Oh and to make up the DS...plenty of options with some agl/dodge/ranged enhansives or statues or whatever else.

[Whirlin]

Good stuff. Really looking at that, all three options seem like too much investment of points vs marginal gains. Maybe instead I should pickup manipulation lore ranks for more kill power and option for targeted strikes with 1030. With the points I could get .75 ranks per level in lores and that's 45 ranks @ 60. That gives me some great options with 1002&1030 vs undead and non crittable foes. Given my Bard CS would be lower than other builds because I'd have to scale my spell training more towards MnE...ahh this is making my head hurt.

Oh and to make up the DS...plenty of options with some agl/dodge/ranged enhansives or statues or whatever else.

The point of doing the comparative analysis is that the DS per TP gains are low for all accounts... but you're still looking at AS gains from Ambush, versus just DS gains from Bard Ranks.

I think that if you're trying to be completely viable as both a pure, CS caster, and an archer bard... you're gonna end up falling short on both categories... that's very TP prohibitive, especially when you start considering the different lore training for Kai's triumph and ranged AS versus One handed instrument requirements on Manipulation rates.

Sorry for the slow response, been away for the weekend.

But, if you REALLY want to take care of DS concerned with a ranged build... I may recommend a nice 7x Longbow... those extra enchants add right to DS... In fact, if you could get one that has some STR or DEX enhancives on it... that may be even better...

[Tenlaar]

If you can only get 45 ranks of lores I think you would best be served with 30 of them being air lore for the -2 RT from tonis allowing for a potential 1 second un-aimed bow shot, leaving 15 to either get single target 1030 with manip or an extra 15 second tonis duration and some AS with telepathy.

[Whirlin]

If you can only get 45 ranks of lores I think you would best be served with 30 of them being air lore for the -2 RT from tonis allowing for a potential 1 second un-aimed bow shot, leaving 15 to either get single target 1030 with manip or an extra 15 second tonis duration and some AS with telepathy.

Mental Lores are not the same as Elemental Lores.

[Tenlaar]

He didn't say he could get 45 ranks of mental lores, he said he could get 45 ranks of lores.

[Danical]

Here's some mental notes I have regarding 1013 on creatures that are over two years old now.

(1) 24 ranks of MMC is all you'll ever need to max out the absorption rate of 1013. The r^2 value isn't that great but that's what Mestys said when he was the bard guru.
(2) To get to the mana of a creature, you'll need to unravel all the spells first, but creatures with no spells (i.e., squares) are prime for the picking. If I recall correctly, I would drain Supplicants, Janissaries, Triton Combatants, and Triton Defenders. Perhaps creatures in the Bowels but that was release after I capped so I never tested it. Generally speaking, square creatures appear to have mana equal to their level but, as Mestys also pointed out, 1013 is only half as effective as 516 so the most you'll get is 1/2 half creature level in returns. Semi and pure creatures have more, but unraveling their spells takes mana and time, this is decidedly not worth it.
(3) You'll only drain mana up to Spellsongs + MMC or something like that and then absorb a percentage based on MMC skill (hence why 24 ranks is all that is needed). Or, at least, I think that's accurate.

For what it's worth, I had 127 Spellsongs and 101 MMC ranks and even so, I would almost never get all the mana from creatures; there is a reasonable amount of randomness in the amount drained.

I found 1013 to be invaluable as a pure bard. Remember right when GSIII converted to GSIV and creatures didn't spawn with spells but did have their DS mirror what it would have been if they did spawn with spells? Those where the days of unraveling shittons of mana. Nearly 10 years ago?

At any rate, hope this helps.

[oneillseanm]

In the right area, then, are you able to run around casting indefinitely?

[SHAFT]

Oh great whirlin, I have a question for you. What do you feel is more powerful? Ranged wizards or ranged bards?

[Jeril]

I would say ranged bards as they can get a significantly higher AS and with tonis they can still achieve the same 1 second firing time that wizards enjoy. Also wouldn't surprise me if a bard could get a higher DS although I am too lazy to run the numbers myself. Bards also have 1040 which can be a nice get out of jail free card in the event things take a turn for the worst. Bards can also 2x PF which would make them better at avoiding maneuvers, not to mention they can wear heavier armor. Wizards do get better round time reduction and for a cheaper mana cost in haste and 540 can be handy but it will only save your bacon 25% of the time at most. They are both elementalists so they'll both have the same problem against spirit spells, wizards will have a higher TD but bards will have a better CvA so I think that evens it out.

[Whirlin]

Oh great whirlin, I have a question for you. What do you feel is more powerful? Ranged wizards or ranged bards?

Anyone can be all powerful with the right gear.


I would say ranged bards as they can get a significantly higher AS and with tonis they can still achieve the same 1 second firing time that wizards enjoy. Also wouldn't surprise me if a bard could get a higher DS although I am too lazy to run the numbers myself. Bards also have 1040 which can be a nice get out of jail free card in the event things take a turn for the worst. Bards can also 2x PF which would make them better at avoiding maneuvers, not to mention they can wear heavier armor. Wizards do get better round time reduction and for a cheaper mana cost in haste and 540 can be handy but it will only save your bacon 25% of the time at most. They are both elementalists so they'll both have the same problem against spirit spells, wizards will have a higher TD but bards will have a better CvA so I think that evens it out.

Bards' Tonis potency is not as good as a wizard's haste potency by a longshot. A Halfling Bard will not be able to aim fire a longbow in 1 second like a wizard can on their own spells. The lack of 509 definitely adds quite a bit deal, as it's basically providing half of Tonis' max potency to RT reduction.

The other thing to factor in is that MnE sucks for Bards. So you're gonna have the higher 425 potency with a wizard until well past post-cap, especially if you want those other Bard benefits.

At Level 20, I'd say Wizard.
At level 50, I'd say Wizard.
At level 70, I'd still lean towards Wizard.
At Cap, Probably start to lean towards Bard a little bit.
At 3x Postcap, Bard, hands down.

[oneillseanm]

At Cap, Probably start to lean towards Bard a little bit.
At 3x Postcap, Bard, hands down.
What changes at this point?

[Danical]

In the right area, then, are you able to run around casting indefinitely?

Absolutely. Nelemar is a great example of mana draining.

Another reason Nelemar was easy is because my CS was high enough that I could crit-kill Combatants, Magus, Executioners, Sirens, and Radicals all with 1002 provided the resultant impact crit hit a vital location.

[Whirlin]

Here's some mental notes I have regarding 1013 on creatures that are over two years old now.

(1) 24 ranks of MMC is all you'll ever need to max out the absorption rate of 1013. The r^2 value isn't that great but that's what Mestys said when he was the bard guru.
(2) To get to the mana of a creature, you'll need to unravel all the spells first, but creatures with no spells (i.e., squares) are prime for the picking. If I recall correctly, I would drain Supplicants, Janissaries, Triton Combatants, and Triton Defenders. Perhaps creatures in the Bowels but that was release after I capped so I never tested it. Generally speaking, square creatures appear to have mana equal to their level but, as Mestys also pointed out, 1013 is only half as effective as 516 so the most you'll get is 1/2 half creature level in returns. Semi and pure creatures have more, but unraveling their spells takes mana and time, this is decidedly not worth it.
(3) You'll only drain mana up to Spellsongs + MMC or something like that and then absorb a percentage based on MMC skill (hence why 24 ranks is all that is needed). Or, at least, I think that's accurate.

For what it's worth, I had 127 Spellsongs and 101 MMC ranks and even so, I would almost never get all the mana from creatures; there is a reasonable amount of randomness in the amount drained.

I found 1013 to be invaluable as a pure bard. Remember right when GSIII converted to GSIV and creatures didn't spawn with spells but did have their DS mirror what it would have been if they did spawn with spells? Those where the days of unraveling shittons of mana. Nearly 10 years ago?

At any rate, hope this helps.

I'm basically gonna copy/paste this into the guide when I get home... Even in the first section, I reference going into a discussion about EMC versus MMC, but apparently never do!
I can't find any documentation that supports that EMC offers benefits for Bards outside of maybe... 418 and maybe 420. MMC is clearly the better training choice. I'd recommend bumping up to 25 ranks, just to unlock that multicast... While it only helps a little for the minor elmentals, it's kind of a 'why not' at that point.
EMC also has more sharing options in terms of classes to share with... but then again, if you have this character to share with another character, that's an external force which could materially impact training, and as I've stated in all my guides, I'm not going to begin going into the myriad of training options associated with what other pocket characters you have available.

[Whirlin]

What changes at this point?

Wizards max'ed out 425 potency. They pretty much have nothing more they can train in except for ambush at 15/10 to further their AS.
Bards can work on more 425 potency, and pick up Ambush training if they didn't while leveling. I'd recommend Bard over MnE pre-100 spell ranks. It provides more DS, and more non-AS/DS mechanical benefits than MnE.

[Danical]

At Level 20, I'd say Wizard.
At level 50, I'd say Wizard.
At level 70, I'd still lean towards Wizard.
At Cap, Probably start to lean towards Bard a little bit.
At 3x Postcap, Bard, hands down.

I'd say level 74 is the threshold where bards become better as you can train in 75 Air Lore for that additional second of Haste.

I'm surprised there weren't more Giantman bard archers before I left, to be honest. 1 RT eye-aimed shots with fantastic AS.

[Whirlin]

I'd say level 74 is the threshold where bards become better as you can train in 75 Air Lore for that additional second of Haste.

I'm surprised there weren't more Giantman bard archers before I left, to be honest. 1 RT eye-aimed shots with fantastic AS.

Yeah... 75 ranks of Air Lore as Bard puts their haste at about half less than half the potency of Wizard's Haste at that level, without wizard's further RT reduction associated with 509.

Giantmen also have -5 DEX mod. I'm not sure what you mean by Fantastic AS, they have the worst AS of any ranged user.
As a halfling wizard, with only a +5 STR bonus from stat alone, I can fire aimed shots with a longbow in 1 second, and have +20 AS over a Giantman from DEX.

[SHAFT]

I'm working on a lvl 44 wizard archer and I'm tempted to switch to my lvl 50 bard. Tempting.

[Whirlin]

I'm working on a lvl 44 wizard archer and I'm tempted to switch to my lvl 50 bard. Tempting.

Gotta push it until you unlock 51 in MjE

I really put up the archery thing to sell my bow... but I guess it is pretty viable, especially with stacking 402 and 404 for aiming accuracy.

[Danical]

Yeah... 75 ranks of Air Lore as Bard puts their haste at about half less than half the potency of Wizard's Haste at that level, without wizard's further RT reduction associated with 509.

Giantmen also have -5 DEX mod. I'm not sure what you mean by Fantastic AS, they have the worst AS of any ranged user.
As a halfling wizard, with only a +5 STR bonus from stat alone, I can fire aimed shots with a longbow in 1 second, and have +20 AS over a Giantman from DEX.

I mean fantastic AS as a product of being a Bard, not a Giantman. The Giantman will provide the much needed strength, however. As an aside, doesn't 2x training already greatly overcome the AS difference between Wizards and Bards at level 75? Consider the below as both get 1 RT eye-aimed longbow shots. I'm sure I missed something, it's all a bit foggy. I left out ambush because it's a wash and the points could probably be better spend elsewhere.

Level 74 Giant Bard:
Object|Degree|AS Result
Archery|150|250
Perception|150|17.5
Spellsongs|35|20
MnE|40|32.5
Telepathy|25|5
Dex|20|20
Total||345

Level 74 Halfling Wizard:
Object|Degree|AS Result
Archery|75|175
Perception|150|17.5
MnE|75|50
Dex|40|40
Total||282

[Suppressed Poet]

Yeah... 75 ranks of Air Lore as Bard puts their haste at about half less than half the potency of Wizard's Haste at that level, without wizard's further RT reduction associated with 509.

Giantmen also have -5 DEX mod. I'm not sure what you mean by Fantastic AS, they have the worst AS of any ranged user.
As a halfling wizard, with only a +5 STR bonus from stat alone, I can fire aimed shots with a longbow in 1 second, and have +20 AS over a Giantman from DEX.

But the flip side is that giants are the only race to naturally be able to fire a longbow in 3 seconds / 4 seconds aimed. You need a +40 strength bonus to pull it off.

Now your wizard yes doesn't need that much because 509 & the fact that haste is superior in rt reduction to tonis...but a bard can get max -3 secs with tonis. Couple this with the fact giants just make better bards prime stat / tp wise...I think giants would be a great choice for an archer. I'm just trading my need for strength enhancives with dex/ranged to bridge the AS gap.

[Whirlin]

I mean fantastic AS as a product of being a Bard, not a Giantman. The Giantman will provide the much needed strength, however. As an aside, doesn't 2x training already greatly overcome the AS difference between Wizards and Bards at level 75? Consider the below as both get 1 RT eye-aimed longbow shots. I'm sure I missed something, it's all a bit foggy. I left out ambush because it's a wash and the points could probably be better spend elsewhere.

Level 74 Giant Bard:
Object|Degree|AS Result
Archery|150|250
Perception|150|17.5
Spellsongs|35|20
MnE|40|32.5
Telepathy|25|5
Dex|20|20
Total||345

Level 74 Halfling Wizard:
Object|Degree|AS Result
Archery|75|175
Perception|150|17.5
MnE|75|50
Dex|40|40
Total||282

You missed a couple points. I mean, first is the assumption of 100 STR and DEX at that level. Halflings only require a 5 STR bonus to hit that minimum RT, which is accomplished at level 0, if STR is a stat you're maximizing. (yay for shitty GIs). at 75, with DEX placed for max growth, you're looking at having a 92 DEX, or +36 Bonus

As a Giantman Bard, if your stats are placed for growth, you're hitting 92 STR, 93 DEX at level 75. So you're wasting 15 points of growth for this example.

Secondly, 40 ranks of MnE as a Bard would be foolish, that's assuming only 35 ranks in Bard circle. Lets do out the DS calculations for comparison:

Level 74 Giant Bard:
Object|Degree|DS Result
Archery|250+150 ranks perception +75 ranks Ambush|+53
Dodge|75|+51
Bard|35|32
MnE|40|55
1019 Dodge|28|19
Total||210

Level 74 Halfling Wizard:
Object|Bonus|DS Result
Archery Parry|175 skill+ 150 perception ranks|37
MnE|(75 Ranks)|72
MjE|(51 Ranks)|74
Wiz|(30 ranks)|36
Dodge|20|15
Total||234


Ohh wait... there's more...

Wizard training costs 29/46 per level, which includes 2 ranks in spell aiming, which isn't really necessary. With the only additional point dump being 24 ranks of air lore, and subsequently more spells. I did a conservative estimate of just an additional 5 spells in the simulation above. Each subsequent spell rank would net an additional 1.25 DS, and widen the gap between the two classes even more.
Bard training costs 26/47, but doesn't include as much as wizard training: You still need 60 ranks of Armor use, 75 ranks of Air Lore, 25 ranks Telepathy, and any combat maneuvers (but hey, that's consistent!)

The other thing to consider is total utility of the class. When stopping at 35 ranks of Bard, you're going to be hard pressed to use disabler openers like 1001 and 1002 to the fullest extent with the low CS, whereas a Archer Mage is running at pretty much 90% capacity of a pure wizard. The shortcomings for a ranger wizard come from not being a full 3x in spells. But the ability to continue to generate spell AS with 513, while utilizing the increased AS potency from 425 allows pretty much maximum utility.

[Danical]

You missed a couple points. I mean, first is the assumption of 100 STR and DEX at that level. Halflings only require a 5 STR bonus to hit that minimum RT, which is accomplished at level 0, if STR is a stat you're maximizing. (yay for shitty GIs). at 75, with DEX placed for max growth, you're looking at having a 92 DEX, or +36 Bonus

As a Giantman Bard, if your stats are placed for growth, you're hitting 92 STR, 93 DEX at level 75. So you're wasting 15 points of growth for this example.


A fair point about stats, but that still no where near reconciles the output of 2x training.



Secondly, 40 ranks of MnE as a Bard would be foolish, that's assuming only 35 ranks in Bard circle. Lets do out the DS calculations for comparison:

Level 74 Giant Bard:
Object|Degree|DS Result
Archery|250+150 ranks perception +75 ranks Ambush|+53
Dodge|75|+51
Bard|35|32
MnE|40|55
1019 Dodge|28|19
Total||210

Level 74 Halfling Wizard:
Object|Bonus|DS Result
Archery Parry|175 skill+ 150 perception ranks|37
MnE|(75 Ranks)|72
MjE|(51 Ranks)|74
Wiz|(30 ranks)|36
Dodge|20|15
Total||234



You'll also get 15 more dodge ranks via AGI when comparing a Halfling and Giantman, no? Yet, 1035 with 75 Air Lore should boost the dodge of the Bard by 37. This should yield a difference of 22 dodge ranks and DS gain of 16.5 for the Bard thereby bringing the DS disparity to 7.5. Surely, 7.5 DS seems reasonable to sacrifice for 63 AS? Additionally, the Bard will be in Augmented Chain further bolstering their Defense (at the cost of all Evade DS receiving a .92 modifier for an additional loss of 9 DS given the above data). I'm not sure what a Ranged Mage would be wearing, Full Leather? If the Bard shifts MnE to 30 and Spellsongs to 45, that's only a loss of 5 AS from 425 and a gain of 5 dodge from Spellsongs.



Ohh wait... there's more...

Wizard training costs 29/46 per level, which includes 2 ranks in spell aiming, which isn't really necessary. With the only additional point dump being 24 ranks of air lore, and subsequently more spells. I did a conservative estimate of just an additional 5 spells in the simulation above. Each subsequent spell rank would net an additional 1.25 DS, and widen the gap between the two classes even more.
Bard training costs 26/47, but doesn't include as much as wizard training: You still need 60 ranks of Armor use, 75 ranks of Air Lore, 25 ranks Telepathy, and any combat maneuvers (but hey, that's consistent!)


Isn't each additional spell when 3xing 32 MTPs? So the argument that each spell rank would widen the gap seems misleading as it would be cost prohibitive. It seems to me the points could be better spent elsewhere. 60 Armor Use ranks over 75 levels is only 4 PTP per level (5*60/75), certainly attainable. It should also be noted that I did not include Ambush in my initial training, doing so would further exaggerate the AS disparity from 63 to 81.75 in my example. Removing Ambush makes training in Air Lore much more tolerable while at the same time only reducing the DS gained in your above example by 5.625.



The other thing to consider is total utility of the class. When stopping at 35 ranks of Bard, you're going to be hard pressed to use disabler openers like 1001 and 1002 to the fullest extent with the low CS, whereas a Archer Mage is running at pretty much 90% capacity of a pure wizard. The shortcomings for a ranger wizard come from not being a full 3x in spells. But the ability to continue to generate spell AS with 513, while utilizing the increased AS potency from 425 allows pretty much maximum utility.

First, 1001 is a fairly wretched spell. 1002 is great if you're exceedingly trained for it. That said, neither of the two aforementioned spells hold a candle to 1005 for the purposes of disabling a creature and 1005 appears to require very little training to be effective, another broken spell in my opinion.

While the Halfling mage may be running at 90% capacity, the Giantman Bard still far outpaces the Halfling mage insofar as ranged combat effectiveness (between 58 to 81.75 AS @ lvl 75 in our examples) while only giving up marginal DS. Additionally, the Bard will be in much heavier armor for added defense. That said, the argument for DS is all well and good, but I would argue that Gemstone combat is set up in such a way that a strong offense almost always offsets a poor defense, and certainly Ranged Combat is brutally efficient when factoring 1 RT eye-aimed shots. When controlling for the aforementioned aimed speed, the vastly higher AS of the Bard, to me, more than makes up for any deficiencies in DS. What hasn't been discussed is the mana costs of a Bard using 1035 which is certainly a limiting factor unless you get creative with 1013 on selective creatures or charged items.

Totally as an aside, I found Dirtkick to be absolutely awesome on a Bard Archer when facing shield using creatures; the Bard Archer simply cannot afford the points to be effective with 1002. Additionally, it has the benefit of being wildly fast (1 RT with Tonis up) and cheap (7 stamina).

[Whirlin]

22 ranks of Dodge is 15 DS... 92% hindrance, 75% stance mod for offensive
But shit, if you're assuming 100% uptime on 1035, lets assume 100% up time on 919... there's another straight +50 DS, rather than the +marginal due to stance/armor hindrance. So... another +50 DS for wizards.



Isn't each additional spell when 3xing 32 MTPs? So the argument that each spell rank would widen the gap seems misleading as it would be cost prohibitive. It seems to me the points could be better spent elsewhere. 60 Armor Use ranks over 75 levels is only 4 PTP per level (5*60/75), certainly attainable. It should also be noted that I did not include Ambush in my initial training, doing so would further exaggerate the AS disparity from 63 to 81.75 in my example. Removing Ambush makes training in Air Lore much more tolerable while at the same time only reducing the DS gained in your above example by 5.625.
Not sure what you're talking about... I'm not saying 3x per level each level. But 75 ranks of air lore is 75*8 = 600 MTPs, and 60 ranks of Armor use, as you mentioned is 300 PTPs, then 25 ranks of Manipulation or Telepathy lore is another 25*8 = 200 MTPs, and you're looking at the sum of 300/800, which is enough for 29 additional spell ranks... the scenario above was 5 additional spell ranks, because I didn't want to do out the math, or make assumptions about growth rates and total training



First, 1001 is a fairly wretched spell. 1002 is great if you're exceedingly trained for it. That said, neither of the two aforementioned spells hold a candle to 1005 for the purposes of disabling a creature and 1005 appears to require very little training to be effective, another broken spell in my opinion.

Ok, I'll give you 1005, because stopping at 35 in Bard wouldn't produce sufficient CS for 1001 or 1002... but wizards also have 505, 101, 909, and a few other disablers that work just as effectively, while not being tied down to only hunting living.


While the Halfling mage may be running at 90% capacity, the Giantman Bard still far outpaces the Halfling mage insofar as ranged combat effectiveness (between 58 to 81.75 AS @ lvl 75 in our examples) while only giving up marginal DS. Additionally, the Bard will be in much heavier armor for added defense. That said, the argument for DS is all well and good, but I would argue that Gemstone combat is set up in such a way that a strong offense almost always offsets a poor defense, and certainly Ranged Combat is brutally efficient when factoring 1 RT eye-aimed shots. When controlling for the aforementioned aimed speed, the vastly higher AS of the Bard, to me, more than makes up for any deficiencies in DS. What hasn't been discussed is the mana costs of a Bard using 1035 which is certainly a limiting factor unless you get creative with 1013 on selective creatures or charged items.

1) You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Archer Mages function. Archer Mages do not rely on Archery as their primary attack, they utilize spell aiming and bolts, just like a Non-CS pure build. So, you're basically asking for a comparison of Bards as a class against Wizards in their entirety. Archery is used once critters are disabled, or if the critters naturally have ridiculously low ranged DS, or when mana is low. Archer Mages is NOT an all-in build. They're still able to maintain combat effectiveness with their spells, Archery is an additional skill that they can train in outside of the 'core' wizard training. It's most similar to being a pure Bard, but using a bow instead of a staff.

Comparing Archer Bard to Archer Mage on Archery Versus spell, with above spell breakdown.
Object|AS Result Bard|AS Result Mage
Archery/Spell Aiming|+250|+250
Perception|17|0
425|32|50
1007/513|25|39
Dex Bonus|20|40
Total|344|379
Remember: Perception Truncates... can't carry that .5. Assumed 25 ranks in Telepathy

2) You haven't brought up about the differing in DEX bonuses is the +5 Phantom Damage that Halflings have over Giantmen, which is effectively easier killshots. I'll let you crunch the DFs to determine how much 5 damage is worth in terms of AS... it's not meant to overcome the gap, but lessen it.

3) It's not just marginal DS gains... It's Substantial DS gains, superior TD, and superior maneuver defenses. Halflings have large innate CMAN defense boosts, while Giants have natural CMAN defense penalties. If you're going to argue that DS isn't necessary, and it's all about AS, may as well skip dodge training, and/or play a 2H Zealot Pally.

4) Keeping 402 and 404 up is a joke as a wizard... that's like, an hour of AFK for a bard to cast all those times.

I'm more than happy to have an in depth, quantified, discussion about the differences...

[Danical]

22 ranks of Dodge is 15 DS... 92% hindrance, 75% stance mod for offensive
But shit, if you're assuming 100% uptime on 1035, lets assume 100% up time on 919... there's another straight +50 DS, rather than the +marginal due to stance/armor hindrance. So... another +50 DS for wizards.


919 is pretty fantastic if you're only using 506, but you assert my misunderstanding is that wizards use their whole host of spells to supplement their Archery combat style. If that's the case, 100% uptime on 919 would seem to be mana prohibitive. Although, to be fair, I have no idea how much mana is being spent on the spells which you suggest Mages of any variety are utilizing. Even so, I would much rather have 50 AS than 50 DS as implied by statement about Gemstone combat being more favorable to strong offense as a primary defense.



Not sure what you're talking about... I'm not saying 3x per level each level. But 75 ranks of air lore is 75*8 = 600 MTPs, and 60 ranks of Armor use, as you mentioned is 300 PTPs, then 25 ranks of Manipulation or Telepathy lore is another 25*8 = 200 MTPs, and you're looking at the sum of 300/800, which is enough for 29 additional spell ranks... the scenario above was 5 additional spell ranks, because I didn't want to do out the math, or make assumptions about growth rates and total training

29 spells ranks would be a delicious 36.25 DS but wouldn't you rather spend it on Arcane Symbols and Magic Item Use and other such objects of awesomeness? Both training paths seem possible.



Ok, I'll give you 1005, because stopping at 35 in Bard wouldn't produce sufficient CS for 1001 or 1002... but wizards also have 505, 101, 909, and a few other disablers that work just as effectively, while not being tied down to only hunting living.


Certainly, this is a strength a Mage enjoys in that they aren't tied down to corporeal creatures. Or, at least to me, it would seem masochistic for an archer of any variety to hunt corporeal creatures.



1) You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Archer Mages function. Archer Mages do not rely on Archery as their primary attack, they utilize spell aiming and bolts, just like a Non-CS pure build. So, you're basically asking for a comparison of Bards as a class against Wizards in their entirety. Archery is used once critters are disabled, or if the critters naturally have ridiculously low ranged DS, or when mana is low. Archer Mages is NOT an all-in build. They're still able to maintain combat effectiveness with their spells, Archery is an additional skill that they can train in outside of the 'core' wizard training. It's most similar to being a pure Bard, but using a bow instead of a staff.


I understand all that, but it's, like, my opinion, man, that an all-in Bard Archer is more effective than an Archer Mage (or a maximized spellzy Mage for that matter). Although, the list of huntable creatures certainly becomes problematic for the Bard archer at cap, what with all the creatures in Plate.



Comparing Archer Bard to Archer Mage on Archery Versus spell, with above spell breakdown.
Object|AS Result Bard|AS Result Mage
Archery/Spell Aiming|+250|+250
Perception|17|0
425|32|50
1007/513|25|39
Dex Bonus|20|40
Total|344|379
Remember: Perception Truncates... can't carry that .5. Assumed 25 ranks in Telepathy


When comparing Mage bolts to archery, you'll most definitely need to account for the +50 coming from weapon enchant whereas no analog exists for Mage bolts [see below for an idea!] (I think we can both agree that getting a 5x bow and fletching 5x arrows is exceedingly trivial). I did not include ET before because it was an apples to apples comparison of attack types, whereas what you presented above is not a similar comparison. 1x Ambush in conjunction with the perception yields 36.25 or truncated to 36. So, it appears that it's closer to 413 to 379, for a difference of 34 AS. However, now the bard can fire 3 aimed shots in the time it takes the Mage to hurl one unaimed bolt. So, not only does the Bard Archer have a considerable amount more raw offensive strength, this is greatly compounded by having 3 times the attack speed and being able to aim the shot. Now, that said, the Mage could use Rapid Fire but if you're going down that road, why use archery at all as a Mage? And of course, the mage cannot aim the that bolt, further reducing their comparable efficiency. The conflux of raw AS, speed, and aim makes Archery a very formidable means of attack. Although, it should be noted that Mages can stance dance to effectively place them in Stance Guarded, an incredible bonus.



2) You haven't brought up about the differing in DEX bonuses is the +5 Phantom Damage that Halflings have over Giantmen, which is effectively easier killshots. I'll let you crunch the DFs to determine how much 5 damage is worth in terms of AS... it's not meant to overcome the gap, but lessen it.


I honestly thought DEX didn't give critical weighting when using archery, only melee. I seem to remember this being reaffirmed by Oscuro or Fenros when it was asked during a discussion about HURLed weapons and he stated that critical weighting via DEX doesn't work for hurling or archery. I could be wrong, though. Certainly something to investigate!



3) It's not just marginal DS gains... It's Substantial DS gains, superior TD, and superior maneuver defenses. Halflings have large innate CMAN defense boosts, while Giants have natural CMAN defense penalties.


The original argument did not have 100% 919 uptime, and as such, it was a marginal DS difference. Including 919 is certainly fine, but if we accept your first premise that Mages are decidedly Mages before Archers, then you may run into mana problems the degree to which I do not know. I assume this is not a trivial matter, if it was, Mages level 75 and higher would be running around with 919 constantly up, but this is not the case.

Although, I think you mean to say Halflings have a large innate Standard Maneuver Roll (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Standard_maneuver_roll) defense while Giants are, in fact, average not possessing a penalty. I know of no such defensive CMAN penalty or bonus, only when using CMans offensively (e.g., short races getting a benefit to hamstring). If you include racial qualities outside their impact on Archery then you'll have to include the fact that Halflings can get ridiculously encumbered if you carry any more boxes than whatever the disk can hold; I know of this all too well when I played as a Burghal Gnome (even worse in that regard to Halflings!). While encumbrance does not affect the attack speed or attack strength of Bolts or Archery, it certainly affects a host of defensive properties, one of which is DS. Something to consider, I suppose, but conditional on greed or poor clothing optimization.



If you're going to argue that DS isn't necessary, and it's all about AS, may as well skip dodge training, and/or play a 2H Zealot Pally.

This seems a bit of a straw man as I never said DS was not necessary, just that I prioritize raw AS, Speed, and the ability to Aim. The latter two were constant in our comparison of Archery used by Bards and Wizards. The former being miles better on the Bard, so much so, that it more than offsets the DS of a Mage over a Bard. Additionally, speed greatly compounds the raw AS, and aiming means that AS and Speed is maximized. You can fire 6 aimed shots in the time it takes a Paladin to aim a maul/claid/lance/whatever. Additionally, the Paladin will have to worry about Height restrictions on the melee attack and be concerned with having enough Dex/Agi to mitigate the RT penalty of aiming (+3) and base weapon speed (+7, or +8, or +9) and still won't be able to mitigate the 1 RT for open-aiming. As an aside, I never understood why melee characters cannot fully mitigate the aiming RT penalty (1 RT always remains) when Archers can, curious?



4) Keeping 402 and 404 up is a joke as a wizard... that's like, an hour of AFK for a bard to cast all those times.


I assume you mean as a result of a Mage having Rapid Fire. For the Level 75 Bard:

402: 14400 seconds in 4 hours, at 150 seconds per cast, requires 96 casts (192 mana), at 3 seconds per cast is 4.8 minutes.
404: 14400 seconds in 4 hours, at 105 seconds per cast, requires 138 casts (552 mana), at 3 seconds per cast is 6.9 minutes.
Total: 11.7 minutes. Seems very reasonable. Personally, I only put in 30 minute stacks of both 402 and 404 in the event of death, requiring a paltry 1.5 minutes.



I'm more than happy to have an in depth, quantified, discussion about the differences...

Are we not already?!



On Bolters:
It is trivial to stance dance between Stance Offensive and Stance Guarded when bolting. So much so, that if I had been accepted as a GM, I would have made bolting from guarded have 100% offensive effectiveness, similar to casting CS spells. With that in mind, I would then implement the ability to channel bolts. Channeling a bolt in any stance lower than guarded adds percentage of the ET granted by a runestaff to the AS of the bolt (i.e., 100% ET in offensive, 75% ET from advanced, 50% ET from forward, 25% Neutral 0% in Guarded). Mages that don't want to use runestaves can purchase "mage gloves" proxying for the runestaff and can be ETed similar to Monk wearables. Now, the Mage has a reason to be in offensive to cast the bolt and using channel means they will be forced in that stance for 3 seconds of hard RT. I probably would have done the same with CS spells (5 AS per enchant, 3 CS per enchant). Something that would have made casting spells a little more risky but rewarding.

[Whirlin]

1) You're right on Bow/Arrow enchant.
2) That training path that I highlighted was already 1x EMC, 1x AS, 1x MIU, as well as a full 1x PF for the 29/46 per level. Definitely still get the fun stuff, and a viable enchanter for 7x... but not for fusion.
3) Absolutely DEX grants phantom Dex for Archery. That one is definitely confirmed. Here's one such example:

You nock a wooden arrow in your short bow.
You fire a wooden arrow at a dhu goleras!
AS: +370 vs DS: +289 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +89 = +188
... and hit for 44 points of damage!
Shot knocks the dhu goleras's head back by pushing on the inside of the skull!
The dhu goleras opens her mouth wide and lets out a choked, shrill scream and her eyes cloud over to a solid milky white as she collapses and dies.
The scintillating red light surrounding the arrow fades some.
The wooden arrow sticks in a dhu goleras's left eye!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
>
RANK 5 RIGHT EYE PUNCTURE: Damage: 20 Status Effect: FATAL Wounds: Rank 3, + head Rank 3
Weapon used: bow against AvD: 18, d100 Roll: 89, Endroll: 188, Total Damage: 44

24 for a rank 5 crit... That's a nice +11 Phantom Damage right there.

Also applies to spell bolts:
You gesture at a lich qyn'arj.
You hurl a stream of fire at a lich qyn'arj!
AS: +445 vs DS: +336 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +41 = +186
... and hit for 99 points of damage!
Flames engulf body. Chest left a smoldering ruin.
>
RANK 8 CHEST, FIRE, Damage: 60 Status Effect: FATAL, Wounds: Rank 3

DF: .455
Raw dmg: 39.13 (86 * .455)
Crit dmg: 11
Total dmg: 50
Armor crit divisor: 6 (ASG 6)
Max crit rank w/o weighting: 6 [trunc(39/6)]
Actual crit rank: 8

Actual Phantom Damage added: 9

4) Yeah, stacking 402 and 404 without rapid fire sucks. Tons of mana, tons of time.
5) Regarding CMAN Defenses... Sure... you can say Giantmen don't possess a penalty the same way that Pures don't have a penalty to foraging... it's just every other race has benefits that they don't have.

[Danical]

3) Absolutely DEX grants phantom Dex for Archery. That one is definitely confirmed. Here's one such example:

You nock a wooden arrow in your short bow.
You fire a wooden arrow at a dhu goleras!
AS: +370 vs DS: +289 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +89 = +188
... and hit for 44 points of damage!
Shot knocks the dhu goleras's head back by pushing on the inside of the skull!
The dhu goleras opens her mouth wide and lets out a choked, shrill scream and her eyes cloud over to a solid milky white as she collapses and dies.
The scintillating red light surrounding the arrow fades some.
The wooden arrow sticks in a dhu goleras's left eye!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
>
RANK 5 RIGHT EYE PUNCTURE: Damage: 20 Status Effect: FATAL Wounds: Rank 3, + head Rank 3
Weapon used: bow against AvD: 18, d100 Roll: 89, Endroll: 188, Total Damage: 44

24 for a rank 5 crit... That's a nice +11 Phantom Damage right there.


trunc(88 * .275) = 24 raw damage
18 AvD implies AsG 10
Crit Divisor on eye location vs AsG 10 = 6
Expected Crit Rank = trunc(24 / 6) = 4
Actual Crit Rank = 5
Minimum Phantom Damage required to achieve expected rank = (24 + x) / 6 = 5; x = 6.

How are you getting 11? Should it not be 6? Still, phantom damage present. Today I Learned.



Also applies to spell bolts:
You gesture at a lich qyn'arj.
You hurl a stream of fire at a lich qyn'arj!
AS: +445 vs DS: +336 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +41 = +186
... and hit for 99 points of damage!
Flames engulf body. Chest left a smoldering ruin.
>
RANK 8 CHEST, FIRE, Damage: 60 Status Effect: FATAL, Wounds: Rank 3

DF: .455
Raw dmg: 39.13 (86 * .455)
Crit dmg: 11
Total dmg: 50
Armor crit divisor: 6 (ASG 6)
Max crit rank w/o weighting: 6 [trunc(39/6)]
Actual crit rank: 8

Actual Phantom Damage added: 9


This checks out, but has me confused. I thought I was sure Dex didn't add to Bolt attacks.

trunc(86 * ..455) = 39 raw damage
36 AvD implies AsG 6
Crit Divisor on chest location vs AsG 6 = 6
Expected Crit Rank = trunc(39 / 6) = 6
Actual Crit Rank = 8!
Minimum Phantom Damage required to achieve expected rank = (39 + x) / 6 = 8; x = 9.



4) Yeah, stacking 402 and 404 without rapid fire sucks. Tons of mana, tons of time.


I demonstrated it does not take tons of time without rapid fire, especially if you do it incrementally. Even if you do 4 hours in one sitting, the Mage will expend the same amount of mana as the Bard but will have to wait on mana anyway; it seems that rapid fire is not really necessary if you have to wait on mana regeneration.



5) Regarding CMAN Defenses... Sure... you can say Giantmen don't possess a penalty the same way that Pures don't have a penalty to foraging... it's just every other race has benefits that they don't have.


In the case of CMans, it's not a product of being a Halfling, but rather, a product of being small. If we accept what Krakiipedia says, smaller targets are easier to Bullrush, Tackle, Shield Bash, Shield Charge, etc. if the attacker is larger. While the converse is true of larger characters are the target of smaller targets when using Hamstring, and . . . I'm not sure on the others some Cheapshots? I think overall, it's actually more beneficial, insofar as CMan Defense is concerned, to be larger than smaller.

[Danical]

The following table is how much AS you're adding per point of phantom damage from Dex.

X / DF = AS; Where X = trunc(Dex Bonus / 4)

Weapon|DF|AS
Short Bow|0.225|4.444444444
Short Bow|0.275|3.636363636
Short Bow|0.25|4
Short Bow|0.1|10
Comp Bow|0.3|3.333333333
Comp Bow|0.325|3.076923077
Comp Bow|0.275|3.636363636
Comp Bow|0.15|6.666666667
Long Bow|0.325|3.076923077
Long Bow|0.35|2.857142857
Long Bow|0.3|3.333333333
Long Bow|0.175|5.714285714

For example: a Halfling using a Long Bow and a Giant using a Long Bow both with 100 Dex vs Full Plate.

A Halfling will have trunc[(40 - 20) / 4] = 5 more phantom damage coming from Dex. This results in roughly 28.5 more AS! vs. Leather, this is comes down to 15.38.

Still, nothing to sneeze at, and certainly something to consider when trying to maximize offensive output.

[Whirlin]

trunc(88 * .275) = 24 raw damage
18 AvD implies AsG 10
Crit Divisor on eye location vs AsG 10 = 6
Expected Crit Rank = trunc(24 / 6) = 4
Actual Crit Rank = 5
Minimum Phantom Damage required to achieve expected rank = (24 + x) / 6 = 5; x = 6.

How are you getting 11? Should it not be 6? Still, phantom damage present. Today I Learned.


Yeah... that's what I get for not showing my work.



This checks out, but has me confused. I thought I was sure Dex didn't add to Bolt attacks.

trunc(86 * ..455) = 39 raw damage
36 AvD implies AsG 6
Crit Divisor on chest location vs AsG 6 = 6
Expected Crit Rank = trunc(39 / 6) = 6
Actual Crit Rank = 8!
Minimum Phantom Damage required to achieve expected rank = (39 + x) / 6 = 8; x = 9.

Nope, that's another strength of an Archer Mage... Basically double dipping into DEX... who cares about STR if all you need is a +5 Bonus at the end of the day. That's easy.



In the case of CMans, it's not a product of being a Halfling, but rather, a product of being small. If we accept what Krakiipedia says, smaller targets are easier to Bullrush, Tackle, Shield Bash, Shield Charge, etc. if the attacker is larger. While the converse is true of larger characters are the target of smaller targets when using Hamstring, and . . . I'm not sure on the others some Cheapshots? I think overall, it's actually more beneficial, insofar as CMan Defense is concerned, to be larger than smaller.
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/New_Races_-_Maneuver_Bonus_(saved_post)

Arguably correct. Unclear as to the definition between Maneuver and Combat Maneuvers, and if the same conditions apply. It's something to test. Although, at worst; they're equal... until that well past post-cap level that I originally hinted on.

[Danical]

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/New_Races_-_Maneuver_Bonus_(saved_post)

Arguably correct. Unclear as to the definition between Maneuver and Combat Maneuvers, and if the same conditions apply. It's something to test. Although, at worst; they're equal... until that well past post-cap level that I originally hinted on.

I would say with near certainty those racial qualities in the above link are in regards to the Standard Maneuver Roll and not CMans.

Even within Marty's post:

It was discovered recently that of the new races, only the Erithian Maneuver bonus was implemented, resulting in all of the other new races being treated as "Average". This modifier applies to most non-CMAN maneuvers that creatures use. As of now, the other new races will receive the applicable bonuses.

He went on to say in subsequent posts that some maneuvers don't use the Standard Maneuver Roll function. I believe the original Roa'ter maneuver neither used the SMR function, nor level which is why Roa'ters could kill characters way over their level.

[Ricer]

For TP reference (stats set to max, level 97);

Set up as an archer bard I am able to:
2x ranged
1.5x PF
15 AS
1x HP
49 MnE
95 Bard
25 Telep lore
75 Air lore
40 climb
60 swim
2x percep

I personally don't understand why a Bard would want to take this route pre-cap. I prefer my 1.75x PF, .5x CM pure build with 14 more spells. To each their own though.

[Suppressed Poet]

Whirlin and Danical...

I had a build idea that may in fact be a beautiful and unique snowflake. I called it the anit-pure. My idea is to make the build centered around full plate and 1017...kinda the closest thing Gemstone would have to an unstoppable tank. I would be trading all the great spells cast in the field for 1017. The thought behind is to make him virtually unkillable because spells fail at such a high rate with 1017. Wearing full plate and the great DS bards can muster, physical attacks would not be of much harm either. Since I'm not using spells in the field, I just need enough mana for 100% uptime on GoS sigils and my songs. Hell maybe throw in and use 1025 just for sh*ts and giggles.

My research with 1017 concludes that it's success is greatly affected by number of bard songs known. At 1x in my late 40s camping, it failed over 95% of spells cast at me. I also found that spirit spells are the ones that tended to sometimes make it through as opposed to elemental. It worked really well. I wasn't a fast killer, but my chances of dying were slim to none.

Now I realize that it is a lot to sacrifice, but suppose I am hell bent to try it and make it work. I don't have the minimum 69 levels to train off full plate right now, and am not a number cruncher, so a few questions:

I've debated and really don't know if it would work better with a lance build or mstriking sword and board.

The lance build would have the advantage of course in offensive power. In addition, charge is a really great cman for a disabler which is desperately needed. It's drawback would be less defense, which is kind of the whole theme of the build. Wearing plate makes dodging and 1019 less effective. I could also just skip air lore entirely and just go with a high enchant old fashioned real gear lance.

On the flip side, I would be plinking much more with a sword and board. The mstriking throws into the mix a good fun factor and decent enough crowd attack method. In sword/board, I would think to go no dodge ranks and shoot for 2x shield. Air lore would be a must both for the double flares and reduction to shield size of 1009, but that's even more tps.

So my question...based on numbers and your opinion, which do you think would be the better route - lance or sword n' board? I played with the trainer and have what I think is a decent viable training plan on sword and board. 73 was the earliest I could make it work for some reason or other point wise. I haven't came up with anything on the lance side. I'll post what I came up with and a method to my madness later to get your thoughts.

[Whirlin]

The thing that you're forgetting is renewal with 1017 active. Not sure what level of hindrance you're gonna have with bard songs... but you'll need to remove/re-wear your armor for renew cycles?

Here's an adjustment from my post on page 6, since that was evaluating the 2nd rank of Dodge versus 2nd rank of spell. This scenario is 1st rank of Dodge versus 2nd rank of spell:


So... we need to analyze the DS per rank of each... (we only care about offensive... which HIGHLY benefits magic)
Dodge, we're subject to .83 for full plate, and .75 for offensive, .78 for a small shield, yielding .4855 DS per rank
Spells, we're looking at .5 DS from 1010, and .5 dodge from 1019. But that .5 dodge becomes .2428 DS for a total of .7428

Now lets divide by TPs. Dodge costing 18, and 2nd Research costing 68.
Dodge: .4855 / 18 = .0270
Spell w/ Sonic Armor & Shield until Rank 40: 1.7428 / 68 = .0256
Spell w/ Sonic Shield Between 40 and 50 Bard: Spell: 1.2428 / 68 = .0183
Spell Beyond 50: .7428 / 68 = .0109


As far as Lance versus Sword/Board goes... REALLY depends on what you want. Sword/Shield and you'll be able to ;bigshot until 70, maybe further, and pretty much always be safe. If your manually hunting, Lance is gonna be more dynamic, and a faster fry, but with much more risk.

If you go sword/shield, you should always sing the smallest shield available to you, post-size reduction, to maximize DS (I highlighted that on the first page). Growing into Tower shield once you hit 100 ranks, or whenever it is.

[Suppressed Poet]

Renewals are not a problem with modern scripting. Just stop 1017 before it happens and recast after renewal. It might take a few attempts in plate, but nothing lich can't handle. The beauty of bard songs is that failed casts cost 0 mana.

I wish I could use haste imbeds, but I learned that 1017 blocks that too.

Pre 70 isn't an option anyways. I need 140 armor ranks to train off the man penalty. My initial thoughts are lance would be a better option. It leaves me a little exposed to ranged attacks, but wearing plate offsets that and bolts would be a non-issue. The only lore training I would need is 25 ranks of telepathy - no air or manipulation. That frees up a ton of points, and a lance would kill much faster.

[Whirlin]

Renewals are not a problem with modern scripting. Just stop 1017 before it happens and recast after renewal. It might take a few attempts in plate, but nothing lich can't handle. The beauty of bard songs is that failed casts cost 0 mana.

I wish I could use haste imbeds, but I learned that 1017 blocks that too.

Pre 70 isn't an option anyways. I need 140 armor ranks to train off the man penalty. My initial thoughts are lance would be a better option. It leaves me a little exposed to ranged attacks, but wearing plate offsets that and bolts would be a non-issue. The only lore training I would need is 25 ranks of telepathy - no air or manipulation. That frees up a ton of points, and a lance would kill much faster.

Yeah, 140 ranks is for the Maneuver penalty, but you need 890 ranks to train Bard Spell Hindrance down to 50%... Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the equations to know how the base hindrance, how much hindrance is reduced per rank, and how much residual hindrance you'll have at only 140 ranks out of the 890 required ranks. You may end up having 90%+ or 100%+ hindrance. Still possible, but spamming enough may be grounds for nerfing, like they did with thrown sonics.

[Suppressed Poet]

The build would be something like this in the 70s

140 ranks in armor use
2x PF (maybe 1.5x or so depending on points available)
2x pole arms
1x Cmans
15 ranks or so of MoC to help with FoF
1x perception
>1x spells (30 MnE, rest in bard for DS and 1017 effectiveness)
25 ranks telepathy
50ish ranks HP should be all the mana I need
Either some MIU or arcane symbols for outside spells
Climbing and swimming

Post cap and when points become available, I want more MnE and Cmans for additional AS. More dodge for DS.

[Suppressed Poet]

Yeah, 140 ranks is for the Maneuver penalty, but you need 890 ranks to train Bard Spell Hindrance down to 50%... Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the equations to know how the base hindrance, how much hindrance is reduced per rank, and how much residual hindrance you'll have at only 140 ranks out of the 890 required ranks. You may end up having 90%+ or 100%+ hindrance. Still possible, but spamming enough may be grounds for nerfing, like they did with thrown sonics.

It won't be 100%. Probably around 90%. Lich spams so it will take all of 2 seconds max to cast it. Maybe mechanics abuse, but I don't believe in that...I'm just taking advantage of the system and resources available.

[Suppressed Poet]

I don't think it follows this kind of linear path, and I'm math stupid but...

140/890 = 16% rounder up
16% of 50 = 8
Therefore best guess I'm at 92% hinderence.

Again it doesn't matter much because I'll just stop it, renew (no hinderence on renewing songs), and spam incant 1017 until it goes through. You technically don't even need to script that, but I'm all about making life easier.

[oneillseanm]

Thrown sonics got nerfed? (Tried searching for the story but couldn't find anything.)

[Suppressed Poet]

Just looked up krakii...armor has a max amount of hinderence regardless of AU training, or lack there of. The absolute max for full plate is 96% without a single rank in armor use.

[Suppressed Poet]

Thrown sonics got nerfed? (Tried searching for the story but couldn't find anything.)

I heard you used to be able to throw it and recast or something for no mana cost. People were going around throwing unlimited amounts of sonic double flaring weightless lances. It got nerfed in that you incur the full mana cost of 1012 after you throw it.

[oneillseanm]

Hahahaha ohhhh man. That's awesome.

[Whirlin]

Just looked up krakii...armor has a max amount of hinderence regardless of AU training, or lack there of. The absolute max for full plate is 96% without a single rank in armor use.

Here's what I found:

Base hindrance is increased by .05*Base Hindrance per Armor Bonus point away from Fully Trained (Spell Hindrance Page)

Full plate Base Hindrance is 50.
Fully trained Bard Full Plate is 890
So, hindrance without Armor Training would be .05*50*890 = 2225%
Each Rank would decrease the hindrance by 2.5%
140 Armor ranks would decrease by 350%, leaving 1875% hindrance remaining.

Then I checked the play.net page, and saw the max column... so yeah, you're looking at 96% hindrance.

That being said, I'm going to repeat what I had been saying earlier, and that I strongly recommend not following through on this training path, I think that it will be short lived before the nerfbat. It only took a single person to lose our sonic hurling.

[Suppressed Poet]

Thanks. Well I am going to try it when I get there because I've wanted to try it for a long time. I'm looking at probably the next next annual fixskills so you have that long before I eff up bards forever.

Oh and I still think it would be lower than 96%. Armor ranks help reduce from the max, so I think those 140 ranks would have a positive effect. I'll find out when it happens.

[Whirlin]

Thanks. Well I am going to try it when I get there because I've wanted to try it for a long time. I'm looking at probably the next next annual fixskills so you have that long before I eff up bards forever.

Oh and I still think it would be lower than 96%. Armor ranks help reduce from the max, so I think those 140 ranks would have a positive effect. I'll find out when it happens.
Easy enough to test... slap on a set of full plate with whatever ranks you have, and sing a song. If it's less than 96%, let us know.

[Tenlaar]

Since nobody else has posted I tried myself, hindrance was still 96% with the 35 ranks for brig. One of you aug chain/hauberk wearing bards should try this.

[Suppressed Poet]

I tried at 60 ranks and still 96%. This leads me to believe that Whirlin is correct and 140 ranks would still be at max hinderence. Still no matter - the build can work. Only 15 levels to go!

[Tenlaar]

I'm sure it CAN work. I have personally done hunts wearing sonic full plate before - as a pure bard with zero weapon training. Any super post-cap bards with 2x armor training lurking around? If you can even get the hindrance down to about 80% it would just be a breeze.

[Whirlin]

Full plate Base Hindrance is 50.
Fully trained Bard Full Plate is 890 RANKS (so, assume 1 point per rank, since we're over 50)
So, hindrance without Armor Training would be .05*50*890 = 2225%
Each Rank would decrease the hindrance by 2.5%
202 Armor ranks would decrease by 505%, leaving 1720% hindrance remaining.


Still 96% hindrance at a full 2x armor use.
Copy/pasted from earlier, with numbers changed... of course.

[Danical]

I apologize if this has been said before but you get significantly less hindrance using the Bard Base with half plate (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Use), 21 for half plate.

I had 200 ranks of Armor Use and still had 96% hindrance in Half Plate. I believe I would still have 96% hindrance even if I got 50 Armor Use from enhancives.

I don't see a clear Spell Hindrance (http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Spell_hindrance) reduction formula on Krakii. Have I missed it?

EDIT: Is the .05 a constant? Would the resultant Spell Hindrance for a Bard using Spellsongs in half plate with 252 ranks of armor use would be (310 - 252) * .05 * 21 = 60.9?

[Whirlin]

It may have been on the spell hindrance page on the play.net site. Both blocked at work, of course... But yeah, I think Half Plate was a pittance compared to the ridiculous 850 of full plate.

But... I really do need to stress that I'd really rather people not abuse the 4% success rate of full plate... I really don't want to see it go the same way as sonic hurlers... this would have a much more traumatic effect on the class and it's relationship with hindrance if it ends up being treated like every other class.

[Whirlin]

Half Plate Base Hindrance is 21
Base Hindrance / 20 = per bonus point reduction
so, that's 1.05% hindrance per rank

Since it requires 310 ranks to get down to the minimum hindrance of 21, we can maths out the additional 108 ranks that would be necessary to reach minimum:
21 + 108*1.05% = 135.45% hindrance

Max hindrance on half plate is 94... so... that's a little better?


May as well finish it off:

Hauberk at 190 is really the only 'doable' one, with a base hindrance of 15 (15/20) = .75% per rank

at 1x Armor Use at cap:
89 * .75 +15 = 81.5% ... However, it maxes out at 60%..
You start getting below that 60% mark at 130 ranks.

But please feel free to check my maths and mechanics.

[Suppressed Poet]

What was so traumatic about nerfing sonic hurling? Seems to me you either a) didn't know it existed as a viable build or b) you knew about it and used it (abused acording to GMs). Then they nerfed it. Seems like a damned if you do / damned if you don't situation. Did it mess up the class in any other way?

Also, I think they would have better things to do. I remember about a year or two ago one GM wanted to nerf war mages. They didn't. This wouldn't be any more overpowered than a pure bard build...

I think at this stage of the game, as apparent with all the ridiculous good gear from recent events like rtcf/black swan/dm, they realize people just want to have fun. I'm not breaking any rules by working within the system. There really are not many options for unique builds at this point. You pioneered archer mages. This is my baby.

[Suppressed Poet]

Also, if I were to go lower on armor, I'd choose mbp. 90% max hinderence, only 80 ranks to train off man penalty, and you get the DF of plate class instead of chain. The only drawback is the higher AvDs on the first set within ASGs, but it would be better overall than hauberk. I may end up fixing early to give it a whirl. (no pun intended)

[Drakefang]

Personally, I believe what he means by don't get the class nerfed doing some outrageous build is the loss of a failed hindrance not costing bards any mana.

As for the guide, it looks solid to me. The whole archery bard thing works rather well. Giantman bard here using a bow for two years now, give or take several months. I used polearms before and ranged is superior at cap and likely just previous to it (90ish). I don't maximize my AS and have plenty left over to kill anything one would typically hunt. The primary issue is grimswarm rangers that use bows have an abnormally high ranged DS compared to anything else like level (FOF seems to drop the DS plenty for everything I hunt except them). Easy enough to 1002 or cman disarm them but it does add time to the kill. I've been capped a good while but am not that far past cap in experience so I've got no ambush skill. Instead I chose to single CM. I may change that in the future because I didn't realize that ambush skill added to ranged DS, as well as AS. I definitely did not find the slight AS boost to be a value for singling ambush versus the cost.

5 ranks of disarm is the base I work from and I have a total of about 10-12 other cman ranks for defensive purposes (subdual strike, charge, cdefense and focus). IF side by side offered any ranged bonuses, even a half reduction, I'd use it in a heart beat as I mostly group hunt. Sadly it does not. My own recommendation would be a giantman ranged bard or elven polearm bard as the most potent of the weapon using bards. I didn't find pure bards to be group friendly enough and dropped the training path, even though it is certainly stronger solo.

I'd probably go sword and board again before TWC, THW or brawling simply because I'd rather target strikes more cheaply using one weapon than flailing with two or the higher cost of THW over poles. MTP are the bane of the bard in my opinion because there are very few places to gain them while training. Sword and shield or polearms seem to be what bards were designed for as those two plans offer the most balanced usage of ptp and mtp.

I don't have much to add other than that. The guide does a more than fair job of summing things up.

[Suppressed Poet]

Thanks for your input Drake. I don't want the class to get nerfed either. My argument would be that it is not peaches&roses overpowered über build if it came up. I'd be sacrificing a lot to make it work. Taking away all offensive spells from a bard in the field is not something to be taken lightly. I'd gain here and lose there. I'm sure warmages and pure bards were outrageous builds at one point. My allure is to try something different and it be halfway good. In anycase, I've got a good ways to go before its even a possibility.

Right now I love my lance build. I would argue that a giantman is a better race choice if you can afford the agidex enhancives, but that is merely a subjective statement. I like not having to worry about encumbrance, the massive pool of hit points, natural AS from strength bonus, and the size factor for charging. Maneuvers are more of an issue but those can be trained for improvement. I dislike the massive penalty to discipline elves have. To me, they make sense as the best mechanics choice for a pure or a heavy MoC build.

[Tenlaar]

I'll take encumbrance, massive pool of hit points, and size factor over a little more CS any day of the week as a pure bard as well.

[Suppressed Poet]

Also I don't think I have said this, but Whirlin you have made a great guide. I really appreciate your input and help with the questions I have had.

[Whirlin]

I'll take encumbrance, massive pool of hit points, and size factor over a little more CS any day of the week as a pure bard as well.
Not sure which race you're talking about... I'm guessing Giantmen over Dark Elves for pure? It's a pretty sizable CS difference at 15 CS, which translates into 9 damage per cast of 1030, assuming always hitting. That's not really a little bit.

I mean, think about the price difference between a 9x HCW weapon versus a 10X HCW weapon... Even +5 is a noticeable difference at cap, worth millions.

I'm not sure why you're taking size into consideration. Size comes into play when small characters go for tall critters. It's also influential when determining damage/severity of some CMANs like Shield Bash. However, I dunno about you, but I'd rather not get hit at all, and have the boost to maneuver defenses of a smaller race, than how much damage I'll take when I get hit. Size has no bearing on CS spells.

Encumbrance... If you have a problem with space, might I recommend joining House Paupers for a bigger locker. Induction schedule is here:
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?83458-House-of-Paupers-Induction-Schedule
Not sure what you NEED to carry around with you to cause you encumbrance. As long as you're not in River's Rest or Ta'Vaalor, you can easily get a disk for those boxes you pick up while hunting. And if you're really a packrat, there are those simucoin encumbrance potions.

I'm also not sure why you need so many HP though... You have 1040 to get out of stuns and potential deaths. Other than that, death crits are death crits, and nothing but higher maneuver defenses like being a smaller race will help with that.

[Danical]

Not sure which race you're talking about... I'm guessing Giantmen over Dark Elves for pure? It's a pretty sizable CS difference at 15 CS, which translates into 9 damage per cast of 1030, assuming always hitting. That's not really a little bit.

It should be noted that if the Bard is going a pure route, as I would suspect a DE bard would be doing, that at some point in post-cap experience the 15 CS will be overkill. It quickly comes to a point when you can crit-kill any corp target with 1030 as long as you hit a vital location well before maximizing CS. However, that said, you could use 1002 as a primary hunting tool, in much the same fashion as 1030, earlier by having 15 more CS.

Personally I would, at the very least, never play a halfling or gnome ever again because of encumbrance.

[Whirlin]

Mechanically, Halflings are actually one of the strongest classes. They get +20 netted total bonus to statistics, which is the best of the original races... but the newer races: Aelotoi, both gnomes, Erithian have a total of +25.... but their stat placement typically isn't the strongest for any particular class, which is why you don't see more of them.

They have ridiculous elemental warding base defenses, second best in spirit regen and innate maneuver defenses, top DexAGL.

Encumbrance is now easily overcome via the SimuCoins encumbrance potion... which is something like $5 for a month of -100 pounds of encumbrance, which is overkill.

However, all of that in mind, when it comes to Bards, I think there are better race options than halflings. While they have advantageous DEXAGL, their lack of STR will be a penalty to their physical AS. Their low encumbrance factor minimizes the gains associated with the naturally lightened armor of 1014.


By the numbers, I would actually recommend Half-Krolvin, or Elven. This is assuming a Polearm or Pure build interchangability. While Half-Krolvin have a lower DEX/AGL, they can still reach the -4 RT point by capped stats... They're the only ones with a STR bonus while still hitting the -4 RT threshold. Elves reach -5, so you can swing that lance at a very early level, and also have good Aura modifier if you decide to go pure, and the same 0 STR mod as everyone except half-Krol over the -4 RT mark.

Of course, it entirely depends on how you want to play.

[Drakefang]

HK have a lot of physical benefits. They're very much not in the top two races for bards, though. Maybe top five or six. The negative modifiers to logic and to influence are fairly significant for a bard which has shitty logic growth as it is. You'd need to sink a 85 or 90+ score in it from generation pretty much and still lack the growth of most races.

Race order, in my opinion, is elves, half-elves, erithians (although I'd never play one of the bald fuckers), humans, giantmen then halflings/HK/dark elves. That's purely based off the profession and not weapon choice, which can play a significant role in choice up to two or three spots on that list. I still wouldn't venture outside those races except for RP reasons. In specific situations I could see that order being changed up a fair bit but I'd never move dark elves up much nor move elves down except maybe as a pure caster in CoL.

[Tenlaar]

Not sure which race you're talking about... I'm guessing Giantmen over Dark Elves for pure? It's a pretty sizable CS difference at 15 CS, which translates into 9 damage per cast of 1030, assuming always hitting. That's not really a little bit.
I mean, think about the price difference between a 9x HCW weapon versus a 10X HCW weapon... Even +5 is a noticeable difference at cap, worth millions.
I do not think the elf/dark elf CS advantage is a matter of any importance at all, really. 1.3x spells (1x songs, 430) was enough for my giantman to have no fail 1030's from about level 40 on, even uphunting by a few levels. You know as well as I do that 9 damage is completely negligible with something as powerful as 1030.


I'm not sure why you're taking size into consideration. Size comes into play when small characters go for tall critters. It's also influential when determining damage/severity of some CMANs like Shield Bash. However, I dunno about you, but I'd rather not get hit at all, and have the boost to maneuver defenses of a smaller race, than how much damage I'll take when I get hit. Size has no bearing on CS spells.
Small races are going to get hit too. Everybody will get hit. The size (and the strength that comes with it), to me, is more helpful in more areas than the smaller race maneuver defense. Pulling somebody up after a knockdown. Dragging them one room over when they are stunned rather than spend 40 mana. Dragging bodies from un-foggable places. And of course, just carrying stuff. How helpful is that maneuver bonus when you are encumbered after picking up a couple of boxes?

Encumbrance... If you have a problem with space, might I recommend joining House Paupers for a bigger locker. Induction schedule is here:
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?83458-House-of-Paupers-Induction-Schedule
Not sure what you NEED to carry around with you to cause you encumbrance. As long as you're not in River's Rest or Ta'Vaalor, you can easily get a disk for those boxes you pick up while hunting. And if you're really a packrat, there are those simucoin encumbrance potions.
Encumbrance matters. You know a lot about the game. You know this, even if you don't want to admit it for some reason. It's not what I NEED to carry around, it's what I CAN carry around if I want to. I hate the simucoin store and refuse to buy anything from it.

I'm also not sure why you need so many HP though... You have 1040 to get out of stuns and potential deaths. Other than that, death crits are death crits, and nothing but higher maneuver defenses like being a smaller race will help with that.
Shit happens. You get silenced and can't 1040? You get throat chopped and can't 1040? There are 5 things in the room and you get stunned when the first attacks, leaving 2-4 more attacks to come at you before you can 1040? There are situations where 80-95 more HP are an advantage just as there are situations where higher maneuver defense is an advantage. The extra HP don't go away half way through a profitable hunt, though. Not to mention that once you get armor with good crit padding on it the number of crit deaths drops off dramatically, leaving the majority of deaths to come from attrition in those shit happens situations.

There are advantages to being either a giant or a weakling. I find the giant advantages to be more helpful over all.

[Whirlin]

I do not think the elf/dark elf CS advantage is a matter of any importance at all, really. 1.3x spells (1x songs, 430) was enough for my giantman to have no fail 1030's from about level 40 on, even uphunting by a few levels. You know as well as I do that 9 damage is completely negligible with something as powerful as 1030.

15 CS is always going to be substantial. It may not always be necessary, but even as Danical stated, it will always help. I'd argue CS is even more important to have racial benefit compared to AS, as there were fewer enhancive options that will boost CS higher. With physical AS, you can boost your stat, but then also weapon training and combat maneuvers.



Small races are going to get hit too. Everybody will get hit. The size (and the strength that comes with it), to me, is more helpful in more areas than the smaller race maneuver defense. Pulling somebody up after a knockdown. Dragging them one room over when they are stunned rather than spend 40 mana. Dragging bodies from un-foggable places. And of course, just carrying stuff. How helpful is that maneuver bonus when you are encumbered after picking up a couple of boxes?

Smaller races get hit less often. That was the only point. I'd rather avoid damage entirely than be able to soak it. As far as dragging goes, you always have Traveler's Song... which I understand isn't always applicable, but you're not always going to be dragging a larger race either. On the flipside, what about when someone needs to drag you? Would you rather be small or big?

The correlation between encumbrance and pretty much any penalties is unknown. If you have some numbers to provide, feel free to substantiate your claim. Otherwise, we're at an impasse for this one. But, if your worst problem with a build is that the creatures that you're fighting are too rich and giving you too many boxes that you can't carry back... that's definitely a first world problem.



Encumbrance matters. You know a lot about the game. You know this, even if you don't want to admit it for some reason. It's not what I NEED to carry around, it's what I CAN carry around if I want to. I hate the simucoin store and refuse to buy anything from it.
Again, there there's limited substantive testing available on the effects of encumbrance versus defenses... The only area that it's well known is in the space of Roundtime, which is irrelevant for the discussion regarding pure builds. If you can definitively prove that the halfling natural maneuver defenses is minimal, go for it, I just see a lot of QQ on these forums from a lot of giantmen how they get constantly Loralaii'ed by maneuver attacks.



Shit happens. You get silenced and can't 1040? You get throat chopped and can't 1040? There are 5 things in the room and you get stunned when the first attacks, leaving 2-4 more attacks to come at you before you can 1040? There are situations where 80-95 more HP are an advantage just as there are situations where higher maneuver defense is an advantage. The extra HP don't go away half way through a profitable hunt, though. Not to mention that once you get armor with good crit padding on it the number of crit deaths drops off dramatically, leaving the majority of deaths to come from attrition in those shit happens situations.

I find that the grey area between being completely fucked and being salvageable are few and far between. They are more prevalent in lower level hunting, up til about ~60ish, but beyond that, I've always considered the scenarios to be very black/white of either being completely fucked, or not breaking a sweat.

Also... if you're concerned about encumbrance, I'm not sure why you'd use non-Sonic crit padded set, as the weight difference gets added as free carry weight. I mean, if encumbrance is the be all, end all of everything, that statement doesn't align.



There are advantages to being either a giant or a weakling. I find the giant advantages to be more helpful over all.
I'm also not sure how we got onto Giant versus Halfling... The discussion should be about Giantman versus Dark Elves, as Dark Elves are the ones with the high aura.

But I get it, and you're free to think that. But I cannot and will not preach for a character to go for a less significant statistic for prioritization when selecting race. A pure bard's main attack is CS based on Aura, I'm going to recommend a race that has a high Aura. Play to your strengths and overcome your weaknesses, not purposefully diminish your strengths in order to be less bad where you're weak... not good... just less bad.

By your logic of Encumbrance being the king of everything, every class should always be Giantman forever and always.

[Whirlin]

Many people have been asking me about my weapon... It's a +32, Lance. It has some weird, mechanical style flares, it's has Trip flares based on MoC and the first flare, Fire flares on trolls, and ensorcell.

You thrust with a fist-capped Vaalorian sarissa at a Grimswarm troll acolyte!
AS: +402 vs DS: +377 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +55 = +119
... and hit for 26 points of damage!
Torn muscle in the troll acolyte's right leg!

** Necrotic energy from your Vaalorian sarissa overflows into you! **

You feel energized!

You feint back, then crack the troll acolyte with a hard shot! Suddenly, you reverse direction, and strike the troll acolyte again with the butt of your Vaalorian sarissa!
... 20 points of damage!
Mighty blow cracks several ribs.

You reverse your sarissa again, and sweep the troll acolyte off his feet!

** Your Vaalorian sarissa flares with a burst of flame! **

... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely.
The troll acolyte howls in agony as the flames dance over his body!
... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to back toasts skin nicely.

Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.

[Jace Solo]

What kind of flares does the bard song reveal for that? Might be the coolest flares I've ever seen.

[Whirlin]

As you sing, you feel a faint resonating vibration from the Vaalorian sarissa in your hand, and you learn something about it...
1)
The first thing that strikes you about the sarissa is the weight, which is about 10 pounds. In your best estimation, it's worth about 550,000 silvers. You can also tell that there is some type of metal in the structure of the Vaalorian sarissa.
2)
You sense a faint aura of magic around the Vaalorian sarissa. From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the sarissa is as some type of weapon. A sense of deep seated hatred clings to the Vaalorian sarissa, as if it had been crafted with a specific purpose.
3)
It has a bonus of +32 from a normal sarissa, and the way it vibrates in tune with your voice tells you that it requires skill in polearms to use effectively. It also has some type of special ability, but you can't tell what yet. This Vaalorian sarissa seems to be the bane of trolls.
4)
The Vaalorian sarissa resonates with your voice, indicating that it has been enchanted by Simiow.
This Vaalorian sarissa flares with the power of elemental fire when employed against trolls.

Doesn't look like those flares are anywhere in the loresong.

Look:
Forged of invar in its purest form, this weapon features a simple, yet elegant military design. The gleaming invar haft is polished to a dark mirror finish and honed to a tip, which has been adorned with a clenched silver fist. The crimson shaft handle is crafted of eahnor and was designed to both add balance, and to fit in the wielder's hand comfortably. The handle ends with a perfect crimson blazestar marked with the royal crest of House Vaalor. A strange necrotic haze radiates from the sarissa.
There appears to be something written on it.
>read my saris
In the Elven language, it reads:
The fist of the fortress city

You gesture at a fist-capped Vaalorian sarissa.
You sense that the Vaalorian sarissa has 1 layer of permanent necrotic energy upon it.
The underlying patterns of essence within the Vaalorian sarissa indicate that it has been enchanted, but can determine nothing else.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

[vprmn123]

those are rebalance flares. I have them on a couple of old polearms.

[Jace Solo]

How are you even to know if you'd have a weapon like that if they don't show in the lore song? Rebalance flares must be the rarest of rare. Do they take up the flare slot or can they still be blessed and weighted?

[Whirlin]

those are rebalance flares. I have them on a couple of old polearms.

Stunseed is looking to purchase a polearm with Rebalance flares. If they're not in use, I'd ask that you reach out to him.


How are you even to know if you'd have a weapon like that if they don't show in the lore song? Rebalance flares must be the rarest of rare. Do they take up the flare slot or can they still be blessed and weighted?

Honestly... no idea. I guess I can try to see if I can add advpoint flares onto it... because you know... this thing doesn't flare enough!

Other than that, no idea how to quickly/easily tell if they are classified as scripts or flares.

My internal debate at this point is trying to determine if a sonic lance would outclass this lance or not... It'd offer +3 AS, lighter weight, and then double air flares... Maybe sonic lance against non-trolls? I dunno yet. Fortunately, I don't need to worry about it for another dozen levels or so when I hit 50 ranks in Bard to max out sonic AS.

[Suppressed Poet]

I've struggled with that myself. It's really hard to beat a sonic...even with really high end weapons. Plus, there is simply no getting around air lore because tonis is essential to a melee build.

Even a 10x perfect lance with added weighting/ensorcell/flares/etc. is going to be both situationally and marginally better than a properly speced sonic lance.

Near weightless, can not be disarmed and doing so gives the attacker RT for trying, permablessed @ 2x, 7x and high % for repetitive and sequential awesome double air flares against the living, plus it can never be stolen or lost = why use anything else. Same logic goes for sonic shield. Sonic armor is really the only one that can be argued against not using in my opinion.

[MotleyCrew]

Been thinking of different training for my bardess, a couple questions. The ones in red I am just wondering why to train so high in these three please.

TWC Bard Core Training
2x Two-Weapon Combat (9/6)
2x Edged Weapons (9/3)
1x Combat Maneuvers (8/4)
1x Physical Fitness (4/0)
1x Dodging (6/6)
1x Harness Power (0/5)
1x Spell Research (0/17)
Total: (36/41)

TWC Bard Discrete Training
1x Air Lore
60 Ranks in Armor Use
1x Perception
25 Ranks Mental Lore - Telepathy
Elemental & Mental Mana Control (subjective goals)
50 Ranks Climbing
50 Ranks Swimming
30/55 Multi-Opponent Combat Ranks
MIU

[Suppressed Poet]

1x perception helps with standard maneuver rolls. Personally, I've gotten by just fine with 0.5x even as a giant at level 60. I have about 1.3x PT though.

Climbing and swimming...50 ranks is a good place to shoot for at cap depending on where you hunt. My 60 bard has 25 in each right now, and I find that to be plenty. Just get enough for where you need to hunt; when you need to hunt. If you are GoS, Sigil of Resolve gives you an extra 10ish phantom ranks at mastery when you need it.

[Whirlin]

So... I've had a couple lnet conversations on Telepathy versus Manipulation, it's effect on 1002, and whether it's worth picking up Manipulation after 25 ranks of Telepathy for a melee build.

While Manipulation is great for a pure build (of course), it's main impact is on 1002 and 1004 (for a non-pure)

If you're building a bard to maximize the effectiveness of 1004... it's really meant to be a pocket character, and I'm not sure this guide is an effective way to achieve that result.

If building for 1002 as an opener, The next best alternatives of the other discrete training options outweigh the flares of the opener.
While Endrolls above 150 without lore training will cause destruction, we're still looking at a relatively low margin of success to make a critter drop an item. Offhand, I think it's around 115+ will be a drop. Upon drop, it's simple enough to drag the weapon away, or pick it up, to reach the same end as a destroyed weapon.

(I'm not sure if there's a level versus level adjustment, but I've observed the 150 value fairly consistently in my recent hunts)

Furthermore, as an opener, it's also incredibly powerful to pair with 1005, whether the result was a full weapon explosion or not.

While dragging away doesn't work in something like Warcamps, I've personally found myself to be running Song of Noise in camps more often than not, due to low Spiritual TD while leveling, making the opener discussion there moot.

I'll likely drop a single rank into manipulation to determine the correlation between manipulation and endrolls. Perhaps 1 rank will provide decent returns?

[Ricer]

I'm close to fix skilling into a weapon user and will be starting that path with 0 manipulation. It's going to be the first skill I work up and I'll bring it to 75. I'll monitor my progress and keep track of the varying end roll requirements and send you some results..

[Whirlin]

That sounds wonderful!

I'd be very interested to hear your results! We may even be able to get Mastertwin to adjust infuseme to keep track of the values for shattering versus dropping, etc.

[Jarvan]

In late I know. But I always thought that manipulation lowered the endroll required to shatter a weapon as it went up in ranks. I have seen low 140's shatter on my bard when I have higher manip lore.

[Whirlin]

In late I know. But I always thought that manipulation lowered the endroll required to shatter a weapon as it went up in ranks. I have seen low 140's shatter on my bard when I have higher manip lore.

Yep, it does. Even Krakii shows a log of an explosion with a 140s endroll. The exact correlation between Manipulation and endroll for explosion is still unknown though, which I find interesting, and worth further researching! Could be a material difference if it's worth training.

However, barring explosion, I've taken a liking to just dragging the weapon out of the room from the critter after making it drop it. Which is effectively the same end, but bi-passed the instant-pickup-and-swing next attack round, and let them swing their flaccid fist at you, which hits chain like a wet noodle. Since 1002 won't stance down a critter, it may or may not result in enough DS loss to make it squishible, requiring that additional attack round anyway.

I'll open up a new thread for 1002 result decrease. If you have some manipulation trained at the moment, would be awesome for you to post your results.

[Whirlin]

Updated Krakii to reflect OP. Now all that's left is to turn back to Sorc stuff.

[Jeril]

Which is effectively the same end, but bi-passed the instant-pickup-and-swing next attack round, and let them swing their flaccid fist at you, which hits chain like a wet noodle.

This entirely depends on the creatures, giants use an attack that is just as bad or worse then what they swing depending on they are holding.

[Whirlin]

This entirely depends on the creatures, giants use an attack that is just as bad or worse then what they swing depending on they are holding.

Agreed. But to put it in perspective of our discussion, if critters are more deadly when disarmed, I'd rather lean towards Lullaby or Feint as an opener if the risks of full disarming is so severe. Even if you did explode the weapon, if they can facerape you afterwards, you'd likely be better off initiating combat another way.

For the purposes of trying to identify a value of the first few ranks in manipulation lore for end roll threshold pushdowns, the examples of instances when 1002 is not an ideal opener would only devalue the lore training.

[Riltus]

Your parry DS section needs a couple of minor corrections.

THW and Polearm formulae do not halve the weapon enchant bonus.

Base Value = Weapon Ranks + Trunc (STR Bonus /4) + Trunc (DEX Bonus / 4) + Weapon Enchant ... (not weapon enchant/2)

and the correct THW stance modifiers are:

THW Stance|Mod|Bonus
Offensive|.30|0
Advance|.45|10
Forward|.60|20
Neutral|.75|30
Guarded|.90|40
Defensive|1.05|50

I've updated the Parry page on KP with the THW formula and links to the other weapon categories for ease of access.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Parry

Mark

[Whirlin]

So, the difference between Polearm and THW becomes a weighting on the mod and the static bonus... I'll run some comparative calcs on those later.

Fortunately, I used all 0x weapons in the calculations, and I didn't actually go through the math on THW... maybe I'll go back and do that!

[Riltus]

So, the difference between Polearm and THW becomes a weighting on the mod and the static bonus... I'll run some comparative calcs on those later.

Fortunately, I used all 0x weapons in the calculations, and I didn't actually go through the math on THW... maybe I'll go back and do that!

Even THW best case scenario is insufficient to overcome the polearm bonus.

Ex: 202 weapon ranks, +50 enchant bonus, stance DEF

Mod difference: 1.05 (THW DEF stance mod) - 0.94 (Polearm DEF mod) = 0.11


0.11 (mod difference) * 252 (weapon ranks + enchant bonus) = +27.72 THW DS vs +30 polearm DEF bonus

Same weapon ranks and enchant bonus in stance OFF:

Mod difference: 0.30 (THW OFF stance mod) - 0.27 (Polearm OFF mod) = 0.03



0.03 * 252 = +7.56 THW DS vs +15 polearm OFF bonus

Fewer weapon ranks and/or a lower enchant bonus will increase the polearm's advantage.

Mark

[Whirlin]

Geeze Mark, beating me to it... Not letting me have any fun with calculations!

So, in summary... Polearms have higher DFs, better DS, at the expense of a higher DEXAGL requirement to minimize RT.

[liquiddrool]

Great guide, thanks for all the info and covering every angle of bardliness. I'm putting in work on a THW, claid swinging giantman bard rolling in a nice set of crit padded 4x full plate. The way I see it is with tonis he'll be swinging a claid with 5 second RT once he's around 65(minimum level for 100% RT reduction for full plate). Your info on air lores helped me decide his patch up to 60-70ish until I fixskill him off of the claid. It also explained why my last attempt at a sonic weapon bard failed in his late 20s early 30s(no mana!).

[kcostell]

Have you considered training past 60 ranks in Armor Use as a swinger? Right now at 46 trains I use e-wave pretty heavily when hunting (especially against bandits, sometimes against casters), and getting your emergency e-wave hindranced twice in a row can be painful. 70 ranks gets you to minimum hindrance for double chain, 90 to minimum for augmented.

[Stretch]

Low carry capacity was a huge pain in Nelemar. Giantman Bard all the way.

[Fivel VonGrace]

thanks for all the good info. I just started playing again.

[Whirlin]

Addition to the guide:
The bardess Jastalyn is a cunt in whatever form she takes.

[SHAFT]

Addition to the guide:
The bardess Jastalyn is a cunt in whatever form she takes.

Whoa, shots fired!

[Enuch]

What are you thoughts early on, for optional training on 2x physical training for like first 10 levels to avoid blood loss deaths? for lance users?

[Whirlin]

Probably can't afford too much additional TP at that low level... there are better things to train in that grant fairly substantial returns, such as manipulation lore, due to relatively low spellsong duration, and relative value of the static increase.

If you're really concerned with blood loss, getting masses will definitely make you unhittable at those lower levels... and just underhunt a bit!

[sadrin]

Thanks for this guide, it's been very helpful.

[Vagabondbard]

Probably can't afford too much additional TP at that low level... there are better things to train in that grant fairly substantial returns, such as manipulation lore, due to relatively low spellsong duration, and relative value of the static increase.

If you're really concerned with blood loss, getting masses will definitely make you unhittable at those lower levels... and just underhunt a bit!

I think whirlin means telepathy lore adds +2 seconds per rank on song duration. Which at 15 ranks those 30 seconds can mean the difference between being able to renew an extra defense song.

GBB

[Whirlin]

So... I ended up fixskillsing at 75 into a pure build to test out in Duskruin, and I haven't bothered going back... but a wonderfully obvious implication of going pure...
Purification sessions last FOREVER, and the likelihood of maxing out the value of a gem goes through the roof. This is due to Manipulation's impact on 1004 success rate... but I never truly realized how dramatic the effects were.
I'll be adding in a line about that into the OP and Wiki page to add that in.

Given the scarcity of TP, it's not like I'd start recommending physical builds to start picking up manipulation lore for purification sessions... but it's just a nice fringe benefit of pure.

[neimanz1]

So... I ended up fixskillsing at 75 into a pure build to test out in Duskruin, and I haven't bothered going back... but a wonderfully obvious implication of going pure...
Purification sessions last FOREVER, and the likelihood of maxing out the value of a gem goes through the roof. This is due to Manipulation's impact on 1004 success rate... but I never truly realized how dramatic the effects were.
I'll be adding in a line about that into the OP and Wiki page to add that in.

Given the scarcity of TP, it's not like I'd start recommending physical builds to start picking up manipulation lore for purification sessions... but it's just a nice fringe benefit of pure.

DAMN YOU!! I was thinking about switching from pure to range or maybe polearm! can't decide now!

[Methais]

Other than fighting magic immune critters, I can't think of one situation where being a physical bard would be better than going pure.

[Whirlin]

I was actually thinking of picking up 10 ranks of trading, and siphoning all sorts of stuff through my Elven Bard to sell in Ta'Illistim for Racial bonus, Trading bonus, stat bonus, and the purification bonuses.

[zennsunni]

DAMN YOU!! I was thinking about switching from pure to range or maybe polearm! can't decide now!

Frankly, bards are pretty rocking in any of the major configurations, so if you think you'd enjoy range or polearm more, I would suggest doing it. Pure may be 'better', and if you are agnostic in regard to your build then it may be the best, but ranged/polearm bards are still very powerful.

[Whirlin]

Pure has been immensely fun... The only reason I want to eventually swap back to polearm is because I already have a wizard and Sorc... so I really want to play around with swinging a weapon for a while and see how that works out for comparison's sake.

[Savageheart]

So I think Im more constrained for some reason as a giant bard.

Training at 66 - I ended up Dropping Dodge but my defenses still seem formidable for decent uphunt
Savageheart (at level 66), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 160 60
Shield Use.........................| 236 136
Physical Fitness...................| 168 68
Harness Power......................| 168 68
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 150 50
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 168 68
Perception.........................| 168 68
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 140 40

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 31

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 77

Name: Savageheart Warls Race: Giantman Profession: Bard (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 42 Expr: 4087011 Level: 66
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 73 (26) ... 73 (26)
Constitution (CON): 91 (30) ... 90 (30)
Dexterity (DEX): 91 (15) ... 91 (15)
Agility (AGI): 93 (16) ... 93 (16)
Discipline (DIS): 95 (22) ... 95 (22)
Aura (AUR): 89 (14) ... 89 (14)
Logic (LOG): 97 (18) ... 97 (18)
Intuition (INT): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Wisdom (WIS): 89 (19) ... 89 (19)
Influence (INF): 86 (23) ... 86 (23)

[Zarston]

You seem to be pure, so I would consider dropping Air Lore and pumping those points into more spells. All Air is doing for you right now is decreasing the size of your sonic shield for dodging purposes, but you don't seem to have enough dodge to warrant the point investment. Later on it's good to have 75 ranks of Air Lore for the purpose of 1035, but you're not going to be using that to hunt (and if you're staying pure, you never will). It's one of those things that are nice to have to help other people, but don't really benefit you on your march to cap.

Lastly, you are missing the 24 ranks of Mental Mana Control that will allow you to drain charged Blue and Crystal Wands for emergency mana. MMC is also important for 1040, as it factors into helping you break status effects that are immobilizing you.

[blanks]

You seem to be pure, so I would consider dropping Air Lore and pumping those points into more spells. All Air is doing for you right now is decreasing the size of your sonic shield for dodging purposes, but you don't seem to have enough dodge to warrant the point investment. Later on it's good to have 75 ranks of Air Lore for the purpose of 1035, but you're not going to be using that to hunt (and if you're staying pure, you never will). It's one of those things that are nice to have to help other people, but don't really benefit you on your march to cap.

Lastly, you are missing the 24 ranks of Mental Mana Control that will allow you to drain charged Blue and Crystal Wands for emergency mana. MMC is also important for 1040, as it factors into helping you break status effects that are immobilizing you.

I agree with Zarston advice. I would also advise in picking up EMC on top of MMC. It is expensive, however, it will round out your character and allow you to send mana for spells, and give you the hidden benefit of slight mana regeneration.

[Savageheart]

I can essentially dump all the air lore into 24 of both of those, question is would it be better for long term investment to get the additional ranks of both moving forward and just dump headlong into spell research for now?

Not to be a size queen but my CS wants to be over 335 unbuffed :)

[Leigo]

What CMAN do you guys prioritize on a pole bard?

[Luxelle]

I was a pole bard in TEST for 30 minutes one night (Hello Tservin!) and charge was the most amazing thing I ever saw!

[Leigo]

I picked up charge, I think I just don't have a big enough bonus yet cause its been underwhelming at lvl 10

[Crash187]

I picked up charge, I think I just don't have a big enough bonus yet cause its been underwhelming at lvl 10

Charge I think is mediocre until 30s. My bard when Pole arm at 19 and 1x in CM did ok with it against krolvin mercs and warriors

[Luxelle]

I picked up charge, I think I just don't have a big enough bonus yet cause its been underwhelming at lvl 10

Barding is underwhelming til your 30's...

[0zymandius]

Barding is underwhelming til your 30's...

So much this. My bard is 39, and just starting to get good. Still has a lot of ways he can die, though.

[Whirlin]

Mine is in his 80s... it's still underwhelming... but there's so damn much to train in, the backlog is real, and it's all about prioritization. You'll never feel "Good" until you're sitting at like, 15m.

[Viekn]

Mine is in his 80s... it's still underwhelming... but there's so damn much to train in, the backlog is real, and it's all about prioritization. You'll never feel "Good" until you're sitting at like, 15m.

Is it just me, or is it kind of sad that a profession that is so integral and important to this game feels so underwhelming even in to level 80?

[Whirlin]

Is it just me, or is it kind of sad that a profession that is so integral and important to this game feels so underwhelming even in to level 80?
Semis have this, Bards just the most so. Bards, from what I've experienced, are the hardest to level/play, but have the highest power cap due to low TP gained per items to train in on a level by level basis.

[Viekn]

Semis have this, Bards just the most so. Bards, from what I've experienced, are the hardest to level/play, but have the highest power cap due to low TP gained per items to train in on a level by level basis.

Agreed. But unlike rangers and paladins who none of us rely on for much in the way of day to day needs, bards are the loresingers we need to identify the massive number of enhancive items that get released. It would be nice if bards were just a tad easier to level. Maybe we'd have more of them around. I have some of the same feelings about rogues and the RT they get from picking boxes. This is a bit off topic but part of the reason I don't use rogues is because the town picker is 1) always there and 2) opens the boxes immediately without any RT that I have to wait on. Reduce the RT rogues get from picking, maybe more people want to play rogues and actually focus on picking boxes, then more people will want to use rogues instead of the town picker because they'll be more rogues available for picking and the time to have them open boxes for you doesn't take as long.

[Viekn]

it makes sense how its setup currently. if you think about it paladins are the most powerful but useless amongst semis through low levels to cap followed up by rangers then bards who evidently are the most useful. so difficulty gaining levels and overall power would fit the bard most then rangers then paladins.

I see where that progression makes sense as well. It's just too bad that the the game population suffers because of that due to a shortage of bards. That may just be my perception though. I don't know the actual numbers as it relates to number of bards compared to the population in general. Maybe Donquix tracks that with his population tracking and can chime in.

[kcostell]

Maybe it's because I started with a bard instead of some other profession, but I never felt this underwhelmingness.

Certainly felt like bards had an easier time of it at lower levels than pures, and lullabye is just absurdly good if you pick the right creatures.

[Tenlaar]

Yeah, I've leveled multiple bards with different methods and it never felt underpower or underwhelming to me. Even while leveling a ranged lockpicking bard in plat. I can't imagine anybody needing more than 401, 406, 1003, 1007, and 1010 to destroy at the lower levels and you can level to 40+ basically just doing 1005 > kill...

[Methais]

Maybe it's because I started with a bard instead of some other profession, but I never felt this underwhelmingness.

Certainly felt like bards had an easier time of it at lower levels than pures, and lullabye is just absurdly good if you pick the right creatures.

When your first meal is a steak, everything else will taste like an old McDouble.

[Fallen]

Agreed. But unlike rangers and paladins who none of us rely on for much in the way of day to day needs, bards are the loresingers we need to identify the massive number of enhancive items that get released. It would be nice if bards were just a tad easier to level. Maybe we'd have more of them around.

What's worse is recent changes seem to have made Loresinging more difficult, requiring a higher level Bard than before.

[Whirlin]

When your first meal is a steak, everything else will taste like an old McDouble.
Methais really hit the nail on the head. Compared to a pure, where I could quite literally set/forget hunting, and just lollygag in offensive, not worry about anything, bard I actually needed to like, worry about stances, use openers, and engage in combat. It wasn't THAT bad, but I needed to constantly worry about getting hit with my defenses, even when not transitioning hunting grounds. My AS always felt ridiculously inflated versus my DS, so offensively was no problem, even when running songmanager scripts, I always felt like my mana didn't go too far with 1035 being so damn expensive.

We're talking about a game that was 'difficult' if you were stuck at 4x gear, with no outside spells or anything. We've seen constant gear inflation for 20 years, everyone has everything, nothing is super ridiculously 'difficult' anymore, but comparatively, I've still found bard to be a much harder time leveling versus other classes I've leveled. I mean, there's nothing wrong with McDoubles, they get the job done, sometimes you crave one, it'll satiate you, you'll feel full afterwords, it gets the job done, but, steak is going to be better.

[hello]

Just play a sorc if you want lulz ez mode. They are an obscenity, their GM/guru must really know how to turn up the charm to get some of these rudiculously OP shit passed.

Wizard if you want this constant fear of being nerfed (but there is room for improvement; but everything seems to be backended aka massive fucking amounts of lore to really feel yourself being powerful.)

But the best is Warrior. 95% of a warrior's power comes from the warrior guild and you can cap that out before you even title. It's just crazy tedious. But once you get grandmastered everything you hunt your level becomes obscenely simple, especially since a capped warguild skill is like 6.4 slots of a normal cman equivalent.

If you're smart you can quick level like in a month or less a f2p wizard and cleric to title then use simucoin spell passes to give you a near full spellup anytime. (also remember the f2p boosts allows for spell up passes.) A spelltanked warrior grandmastered in the guild is trololloolololll; in fact, I don't recommend it as the game will just spiral into boring.

[drauz]

Just get neglected for 15 years, its the foolproof plan!