You 'Saw it' my ass:

[Parkbandit]

[Town Square, Small Park]
A small, shady park fills an old vacant lot behind a row of buildings, the bustling sounds of the square filtering through the passage to the north to animate the area despite its appearance of peace and serenity. You also see a calico cat (sitting), the icy blue Cigamlooc disk, the fiery red Syphaer disk, a grey wolf (sitting), the Shadowrings disk and some indigo nightshade incense.
Also here: Shaderach, Kisanthra, Aegin, Sservus, Nardakar, Zeam, Lord Xenostrus (sitting), Luathaich, Talsinn, Zareka (sitting), Syklo, Remlok (sitting), Cylan (sitting), Shadowrings (prone), Grimma
Obvious paths: north, south, west

You reach into Tillmen's pockets and pull out nothing.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.

You see Shaderach.
He appears to be a Dhe'nar Dark Elf.
He appears to be wizened with age and tall. He has hooded crystal green eyes and dark skin. He has long, flowing jet black hair falling like strands of spidersilk draped over his shoulders. He has an angular face, a sharp nose and sharply-curved pointed ears.
He is in good shape.
He is holding a darkly-tinted heavy linden crossbow in his left hand.
He is wearing a sturdy vultite chain haubergeon, a crystal amulet, an onyx-studded shadowy black hip-satchel, a dual set of shoulder-slung studded leather axe harnesses, a mithril mesh gem pouch, a flowing black spidersilk cloak trimmed in veniom with sharply curved krodera spikes protruding from the shoulders, an invar-bound wrist sheath, a solid gold half moon pendant, some fitted lizard skin trousers, a cut-obsidian Dhe'nar band, an etched onyx pirate ship pin, a translucent spidersilk satchel, some polished black leather boots, and a black leather-wrapped flask.

You yawn.

Xenostrus deeply says, "Falgrin."

Xenostrus nods to Shaderach.

You ask, "Aye?"

Shaderach nods to Xenostrus.

Shaderach clearly says, "I saw."

It is difficult to get a good look at Xenostrus due to the number of mirror images of him nearby.
You see Lord Xenostrus the Battlechanter.
He appears to be a Giant.
He appears to be mature and taller than average. He has piercing amber eyes and tanned skin. He has short, loose golden brown hair. He has an unshaven face, a straight nose and a broad chest.
He has a crimson vaalorn spike in his right eyebrow.
He is in good shape.
He is holding a pitch black naginata in his right hand.
He is wearing some fitted black leather pants, a crimson-edged white crystal diadem, some diamond tooled leather boots, a wyrmwood amulet, a ruby amulet, a striking rolaren-clasped greatcloak, and some scarred old double leather.

You ask, "Did ya need somethin from me?"

You ask, "Or ya jes like sayin my name?"

You say, "Like mos' lasses."

You reach into Xenostrus's pockets and pull out 176 silvers.

Shaderach clearly says, "Pompous for someone who hides in the shadows..."

Shaderach chuckles.

You say, "Excuse me? Yer awful brave fer 'avin two legs."

Shaderach clearly asks, "Are you implying that you have more?"

Shaderach snickers.

You mutter dir'elf.

You reach into Shaderach's mesh gem pouch and pull out a large grey pearl.

You secretly place your grey pearl into your dwarven vest.

You reach into Shaderach's mesh gem pouch and pull out a pink topaz.

You secretly place your pink topaz into your dwarven vest.

You reach into Shaderach's mesh gem pouch and pull out a pink rhodochrosite stone.

You secretly place your rhodochrosite stone into your dwarven vest.

You reach into Shaderach's mesh gem pouch and pull out a violet sapphire.

You secretly place your violet sapphire into your dwarven vest.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.

Shaderach just went north.

Shaderach just arrived.

Shaderach just went south.

Shaderach just arrived.

Shaderach just went north.

Shaderach just arrived.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.

You reach into Shaderach's mesh gem pouch and pull out a pink spinel.

You secretly place your pink spinel into your dwarven vest.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.

You reach into Shaderach's mesh gem pouch and pull out a medium pink pearl.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.

You secretly place your pink pearl into your dwarven vest.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.
Shaderach has spotted you!

You do not believe anyone noticed you slip out of hiding.

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Shaderach chuckles.

You couldn't find anything worth taking. Maybe you should offer Shaderach a donation instead.

Mithirander searches around for a moment.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.

Mithirander searches around for a moment.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.

You reach into Shaderach's pockets and pull out nothing.

Mithirander just went west.

Shaderach searches around for a moment.

Shaderach is guarding his pockets very closely. You cannot get close enough to even try.

Delcon just arrived.

[Town Square, Small Park]
A small, shady park fills an old vacant lot behind a row of buildings, the bustling sounds of the square filtering through the passage to the north to animate the area despite its appearance of peace and serenity. You also see a cloudy grey panther, a calico cat (sitting), the Gniknogard disk, the icy blue Cigamlooc disk, a grey wolf (sitting) and some indigo nightshade incense.
Also here: Delcon, Zeam, Rhad, Shaderach, Evanthrill (sitting), Zanial (sitting), Kynteres (prone), Thrystell (prone), Gniknogard, Aegin, Tillmen, Kisanthra, Sservus, Lord Xenostrus (sitting), Talsinn, Zareka (sitting), Syklo, Remlok (sitting), Cylan (sitting), Grimma
Obvious paths: north, south, west

Delcon makes a nearly imperceptible motion while whispering a soft phrase...

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
You are revealed from hiding!

Zareka says, "Oh dear."

Xenostrus deeply says, "I guess Delcon wins."

You are wanted for 3 crimes in Wehnimer's Landing. They are:
2 counts of assault
1 count of assault with a deadly weapon

[Town Square, Small Park]
A small, shady park fills an old vacant lot behind a row of buildings, the bustling sounds of the square filtering through the passage to the north to animate the area despite its appearance of peace and serenity. You also see a cloudy grey panther, a calico cat (sitting), the Gniknogard disk, the icy blue Cigamlooc disk, a grey wolf (sitting) and some indigo nightshade incense.
Also here: Zimzum, Fenic, Delcon, Zeam, Rhad, Evanthrill (sitting), Zanial (sitting), Kynteres (prone), Thrystell (prone), Gniknogard, Aegin, Tillmen, Kisanthra, Sservus, Lord Xenostrus (sitting), Talsinn, Zareka (sitting), Syklo, Remlok (sitting), Cylan (sitting), Grimma
Obvious paths: north, south, west

Zareka says, "Not ultimately i dun think so."

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Shaderach blurs into a white fog and vanishes!

You laugh softly, trying to hide your amusement.

Delcon makes a nearly imperceptible motion while whispering a soft phrase...

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
You are revealed from hiding!

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

You say, "Um.. don' do that."

Delcon makes a nearly imperceptible motion while whispering a soft phrase...

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
You are revealed from hiding!

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

You remove a twisted black vaalin wire from in your leather weapons harness.

Delcon clearly says, "Umm dont steal."

You are unable to remain hidden.
[Roll result: 180 (open d100: 32) Penalties: 21]
You fling your wire around Delcon's neck and snap it taut. Success!
Roundtime: 19 sec.

You say, "Per'aps you should mind yer tongue."

You ask, "Who are you?"

You say, "Tha's righ.. no one."

You say, "Now go away."

Delcon gasps and struggles to no avail.

Delcon continues to fight but the garrote digs in deeper.

You release your hold on Delcon and allow your victim to draw a deep gasp of air.

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Straz calmly asks, "Come now, is this really neccessary?"

You say, "Exactly."

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
Pyramor is revealed from hiding!
You are revealed from hiding!

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Delcon clearly asks, "Going to kill me in the park eh?"

You say, "I don' spill filthy blood in my park."

Zareka says, "Some folks never learn."

Delcon clearly says, "No you just steal."

You say, "Only makes a mess dat I'll 'ave ta clean up."

Delcon clearly says, "As I just watched you."

You ask, "I steal?"

Straz calmly asks, "Did I miss the sign?"

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
You are revealed from hiding!

Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

You come out of hiding.
You show Delcon your silver star.

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

You say, "Yer mistaken."

You say, "Run along."

Delcon clearly says, "Funny your hands were just in Shaderach's pockets."

Zareka says, "I think someone is tired of life."

You say, "Sure."

Delcon clearly says, "You can show me whategver you'd like."

You say, "Mebbe ya should let 'im 'andle it."

Delcon coughs.

Delcon clearly says, "Mayhaps you should steal elsewhere."

You say, "Or let a depu'y like me 'andle it."

Delcon makes a nearly imperceptible motion while whispering a soft phrase...

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
You are revealed from hiding!

[Roll result: 206 (open d100: 38) Penalties: 21]
You fling your wire around Delcon's neck and snap it taut. Success!
Roundtime: 19 sec.

You say, "Yer jes not gittin it."

You ask, "Are ya?"

You release your hold on Delcon and allow your victim to draw a deep gasp of air.

You say, "Run along."

You say, "While I allow ya to breath."

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Delcon clearly says, "Id rather watch you kill me and lose the money you steal."

You couldn't find anything worth taking. Maybe you should offer Delcon a donation instead.

Delcon makes a nearly imperceptible motion while whispering a soft phrase...

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
You are revealed from hiding!

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Delcon makes a nearly imperceptible motion while whispering a soft phrase...

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
You are revealed from hiding!

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

You say, "Dis is real productive."

Delcon makes a nearly imperceptible motion while whispering a soft phrase...

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
You are revealed from hiding!

You say, "Now go git yer 'ead 'ealed."

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

You say, "So ya don' die in my park."

Speaking calmly to Delcon, Straz says, "If ya feel so strongly, just go report him."

Delcon clearly says, "Mayhaps not..but it irritates the hell outta you."

You say, "Indeed."

Delcon clearly says, "And thats my only aim."

You swap your vaalin wire from your right to your left hand.

Delcon makes a nearly imperceptible motion while whispering a soft phrase...

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
You are revealed from hiding!


You put a twisted black vaalin wire in your dwarven war girdle.

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

You remove a split-tipped feras dagger from in your leather weapons harness.

Delcon makes a nearly imperceptible motion while whispering a soft phrase...

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
You are revealed from hiding!

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

You spring from hiding and deliver a blow to Delcon's head!
Delcon is paralyzed and is driven to his knees!

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Delcon makes a nearly imperceptible motion while whispering a soft phrase...

You say, "I can 'ave goals like that too if need be."

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
You are revealed from hiding!

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

[Roll result: 137 (open d100: 49) Penalties: 21]
You spring from hiding and deliver a blow to Delcon's head!
Delcon is paralyzed and is driven face-first to the ground!
Roundtime: 5 sec.

Delcon clearly says, "Oh I have nothing to lose."

Straz just failed to pull Delcon to his feet.

Delcon clearly says, "Ive already had a wire put around my neck."

You say, "Yer righ.."

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
You are revealed from hiding!

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

[Roll result: 97 (open d100: 9) Penalties: 21]
You spring from hiding and deliver a blow to Delcon's head!
Delcon is annoyed, but otherwise unaffected.
Roundtime: 8 sec.

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Delcon chuckles.

You say, "Actually.. it's more between 'imself."

You say, "I suppose."

Delcon clearly says, "You're very involved...for someone who..isnt involved."

Dionisius asks, "Still pickin' on youngins Falgrin?"

Delcon snickers.

Delcon makes a nearly imperceptible motion while whispering a soft phrase...

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
Straz is revealed from hiding!
You are revealed from hiding!

You say, "I was mindin my own bus'ness."

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Straz calmly says, "You're both acting quite petty."

Dionisius asks, "Why you keep doing that anyway?"

Dionisius peers quizzically at Delcon.

You come out of hiding.
[Roll result: 198 (open d100: 61) Penalties: 21]
You crouch, sweep a leg at Delcon and connect!
Delcon falls to the ground! You deftly regain your footing.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

Delcon clearly says, "You were mindin' yer own business pickin pockets."

You ask, "Stupidity?"

Dionisius says, "I guess he wants you to pick on him."

[Roll result: 120 (open d100: 32) Penalties: 21]
You spring from hiding and deliver a blow to Delcon's head!
Delcon is dazed!
Roundtime: 5 sec.

Dionisius nods to you.

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Dionisius says, "Only reason I can think of."

Delcon stands up.

[Roll result: 154 (open d100: 46) Penalties: 26]
You raise your heel high, bringing it down solidly on Delcon's foot!
Delcon howls in pain, hopping around and clutching his foot!

Delcon starts chuckling at you!

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Delcon clearly asks, "Failed the pick?"

You ask, "Huh?"

Delcon clearly says, "Thats unfortunate."

You ask, "From you?"

Dionisius says, "Maybe you should stop sunbursting."

Dionisius nods to Delcon.

Delcon clearly asks, "Why for?"

Dionisius whistles tunelessly to himself.

Delcon raises an eyebrow in Dionisius's direction.

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Delcon clearly asks, "What's he gonna do...kill me here?"

You ask, "Because yer ineffective?"

Straz calmly says, "You're both acting like children....it's amusing."

Dionisius says, "Maybe because you aggrivating hiders and getting beat on for it."

Dionisius nods to Delcon.

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

You see Straz the Bandit.
He appears to be a Sylvankind of the Lassaran D'ahranal.
He appears to be very young and average height. He has dark-rimmed stormy grey eyes and tanned skin. He has chin length, silky platinum hair streaked with silver. He has an angular face, a small nose and a pronounced jawline.
He is in good shape.
He is holding a gold-etched ruic composite bow in his left hand.
He is wearing a crystal amulet, some reinforced silver-buttoned leathers, some ripped jet black boots, some mithril alloy leg guards, some fingerless black suede gloves, some mithril bracers, a sloppy soot black sash, a black leather tool kit, a wrist sheath, a white-plumed coal black helm, a heavy black bearskin mantle, a tooled shadow grey goat hide quiver, some fitted black leather breeks, an elegant black silk gem pouch, a silver dagger earring, a weathered leather map case, and a dark silk knapsack.

Delcon clearly says, "Im only aggravating one hider."

Delcon clearly says, "Who has been thieving."

Delcon makes a nearly imperceptible motion while whispering a soft phrase...

Delcon gestures.
A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Delcon's hand!
Pyramor is revealed from hiding!
You are revealed from hiding!
Tillmen is revealed from hiding!

Dionisius says, "Deposit your coins."

You say, "Wha's amusin is you believin I care."

Delcon clearly says, "Well."

Delcon clearly says, "Now several."

Zareka says, "Its Falgrins park he can do as he likes ere."

You nod to Straz.

Dionisius says, "Close your containers."

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Delcon clearly says, "They are closed."

Dionisius says, "Then you have nothing to worry about."

Dionisius nods to Delcon.

Delcon clearly says, "Its amazing how tolerant everyone is of being picked clean."

You release a long, drawn out belch. Impressive.

You turn to face Delcon.

You slowly and deliberately empty your filled lungs.

Straz calmly says, "What's even funnier is that you think you have some kind of privledges here."

Dionisius says, "Went you cant do anything about it you just go with the flow."

You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

Dionisius nods to Delcon.

You say, "Or go cry 'bou' it."

Delcon clearly asks, "Privileges?"

Delcon raises an eyebrow.

You say, "You 'ave none 'ere."

Delcon chuckles.

Dionisius says, "I dont like thieves."

Dionisius says, "Hell I cant stand falgrin."

Dionisius says, "But I know better."

Dionisius nods to Delcon.

You say, "Well it took ya long enough Dionisius."

Dionisius squints.

Delcon clearly says, "I dont intend to make it cozy comfortable for any of em either."

Dionisius says, "Shaddap."

Delcon smiles at Dionisius.

Delcon just went north.

You chortle from the shadows.

Dionisius shrugs.

Dionisius says, "Oh well."

You say, "Ifn I 'ad a silver fer e'ery turnip farmer dat claimed dat.. I'd be rich."

You have 5904 coins with you.

Dionisius says, "Dont think they gonna make it comfortable for you too."

You say, "Oh crap.. I am."

[Artha]

You should've taken off a hand. Boom, no casting.

[Chadj]

Fuckin retard.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Yeah, why no right hand cutting?

CUT HIM!

[Shari]

Yeah, shoulda taken his arm off. I think what is more suprising, is how CIVIL Dionisius was being, I'm in absolute shock.

Oh I love how Straz said to report him OUT LOUD. What a fucking dumbass. Shoulda killed him outright.

[Parkbandit]

After the double neckshot.. I was worried I would kill him outright.. even if I was laying down in defensive.

Hard to pull your shot so to speak with GS4

[Soulpieced]

Did you attempt to steal from Delcon? I either missed it, or think you should have cleaned him too.

[Edaarin]

WTF is garrote RT so fucking high for

[Snapp]

Originally posted by Soulpieced
Did you attempt to steal from Delcon? I either missed it, or think you should have cleaned him too.




You couldn't find anything worth taking. Maybe you should offer Delcon a donation instead.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<WTF is garrote RT so fucking high for>>

Even slight encumbrance raises the initial RT by a lot. Falgrin was carrying a lot of coins on him, so he was no doubt encumbered.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Jesae
Oh I love how Straz said to report him OUT LOUD. What a fucking dumbass. Shoulda killed him outright.

Previously posted by Jesae
I never noticed it that much until I got psinet but I've noticed the increase of people attacking/stunning/killing those for breaking rules that a GM should be taking care of, not a PC.


Also previously posted by Jesae
I know that the majority of people here would love nothing more than to just smash the brains in of people who sneeze out of turn, but do you really think that makes you look like a better/smarter game player?

It doesn't to me.

:lol:

And in this case in question, I think he meant accuse rather than report.

[The Cat In The Hat]

Falgrin, you really make me want a rogue to steal with. As always, your RP of the situation was amuseing and well done. What a fucking idiot.

:clap:

[Bobmuhthol]

^

The word report has not been banned from usage. He was referring to the constable. But clearly it's wrong to not specify, since the GMs exist to characters and all.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<WTF is garrote RT so fucking high for>>

Even slight encumbrance raises the initial RT by a lot. Falgrin was carrying a lot of coins on him, so he was no doubt encumbered.

5K in coins +gems + ringmail in my backpack = 19 seconds fer a necklace.

:(

[Warriorbird]

Eh. Buncha pures whined about it, Edaarin.

[SpunGirl]

What a fucking whiner Delcon is. The dood was right. Deposit coin, close containers, don't bitch about it. Love how he asked about "failing" out loud.

-K

[Jonty]

Originally posted by The Cat In The Hat
Falgrin, you really make me want a rogue to steal with.

Just get yourself 93 or so pickpocket ranks and I'm sure you'll have some fun. ;)

[Shari]

I'm figuring most people realize I'm joking when I say to kill people for stupid reasons. I don't do it myself in-game, nor would I expect others to do it. But thank you for paying attention to every post I make, none-the-less.

[Blazing247]

I don't get it. You have a park that you claim you own. You sit in that park every day, and steal from people significantly younger than you. When someone tries to sunburst you from hiding, albeit annoyingly, you garrote them?

I'm not defending Delcon as he was being a fucking n00b, but I just don't understand the point of the post. If you make no effort to roleplay a thief, why should he make any effort to roleplay a victim?

[The Cat In The Hat]

Originally posted by Jonty

Originally posted by The Cat In The Hat
Falgrin, you really make me want a rogue to steal with.

Just get yourself 93 or so pickpocket ranks and I'm sure you'll have some fun. ;)

heh, my empaths a badass when she needs to be but for the most part she's WAY too nice to steal. I need a rogue I can just be a terror with and steal everyone blind :lol:

[The Cat In The Hat]

Originally posted by Blazing247
If you make no effort to roleplay a thief, why should he make any effort to roleplay a victim?

My $0.02

Falgrin is an excellent roleplayer... why would a thief admit to being a thief? He plays a thief perfectly.

[Chadj]

Maybe I should kill Delcon and tell him it was cause I saw him sunbursting and it was annoying. :saint:

[Chadj]

And yes, Falgrin is a very good RPer.

[Axhinde]

Originally posted by Chadj
Maybe I should kill Delcon and tell him it was cause I saw him sunbursting and it was annoying. :saint:

It wouldn't be far off from what he was doing.

How he could expect to justify what he did is beyond me. But, so is the fact the doctors didn't kill him when he was born.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<why would a thief admit to being a thief?>>

Seth Gecko is a professional thief and admits to it.

[Blazing247]

I guess it's all perspective. I used to catch thieves for a living, and I would hardly consider any thief "good" if I knew their name, and if they hit the same place often enough for me to know their face as a thief on sight.

Falgrin is clearly a consistent and adequate roleplayer, but I can't say that he roleplays a thief. More of an arrogant bully.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Please describe how a thief is supposed to rp.

[Blazing247]

I dunno. Maybe not all "This is my park, I took your pearl, look at it- what are you gonna do about it?"

Then again, I don't really give a shit. I just wonder why someone would post a thread that doesn't exactly put them in the best light.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I don't think I've seen him show what he's stolen from anyone, usually he dusts the statue, "cleans" the park. I don't see how else he's "supposed" to actively be a thief. I mean, I guess he could just steal and not tell anyone or just wander around randomly stealing, but then how does he become a notable thief? Besides, with the crowd mechanics I think the park is ideal for thieving, vs many other places.

I'm biased though, I like him.

[Blazing247]

I don't dislike him- I never meant to imply that. I also don't think he doesn't roleplay. I just disagree that he roleplays a thief. I think he roleplays an arrogant bully, which is all fine and dandy but call a spade a spade, ya know?

I've never once been stolen from by him, but I think that has alot to do with the fact that I was level 160. If he wants notariety, then he should be okay with the fact that people will cast sunburst when he is in the room. He IS a thief, right? Are people supposed to play dumb and let him do what he wants?

[Mistomeer]

I don't think that Falgrin is a bad Roleplayer, but when I think of thieves, I think of them as being stealthy. Obviously, everyone knows that Falgrin is in the park to steal.

[Blazing247]

<I don't think that Falgrin is a bad Roleplayer, but when I think of thieves, I think of them as being stealthy. Obviously, everyone knows that Falgrin is in the park to steal.>

Right. It'd be like me running around in the open chopping people down with my claid and saying "I R ASASIN NINJA!" I'd say he is more of a stick-up artist than a thief.

[CrystalTears]

I didn't appreciate seeing Delcon come in and start sunbursting from nowhere. He walks in and knows exactly what's going on? I realize that someone may have thought to him, but you'd think, gee maybe he'd roleplay his sudden appearance rather than start to demand and cast spells as though he owned the place as much as Falgrin did.

I think Falgrin does a fine job roleplaying. I don't begrudge people from wanting to take action against someone stealing from them, but when it's coming from people who weren't involved in the first place, it complicates things.

[Brattt8525]

I would have to say that everyone has a right to what they percieve as good RP'ing of a thief.

When my rogue does get caught, she tells them things like oh, this is yours? I am sorry, and makes up some silly reason for having it in her hand. Usually the target laughs and says keep it.

Its all in how you "see" things, and how you think it should play out. Frankly Falgrin cracks me up, he is such a smart arse, its great.

[Drew]

RPing a thief is hard... because you shouldn't really have to RP at all, you don't want people to know you're a thief, you don't ever really call attention to yourself. At least Falgrin has a sense of RP, even if it's not a thief, because if he was a thief, we likely wouldn't know it. Most people who play thieves (with a few notable exceptions) are horrible RPers, and it's always been that way.

On the other hand, while annoying, I don't have any problem with that guy continuing to sunburst. I don't think Sunburst deserves an attack either, you stole, even if he didn't see it his friend did and he's just trying to help a friend out (because it did stop you from stealing for a bit).

[Axhinde]

RPing a thief a while ago used to be real fun. Most of the time then, you COULD RP out of getting caught. All I ever see people do now is kill first, ask questions later.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Axhinde
RPing a thief a while ago used to be real fun. Most of the time then, you COULD RP out of getting caught. All I ever see people do now is kill first, ask questions later.


I think a lot of it was, at least from my perspective, when a thief got caught in the past he/she would give it back. Not always but this seemed to happen a lot more. I think part of it was that thievery used to be more common amongst younger characters you were more likely to get caught and there was more likely a member of the gentry around to force you to give it back if you refused. Also it could happen in less packed rooms so people weren't concerned about saving face in front of a bunch of people. But mostly I think the reason thieves are more brazen these days is that (at least the way I understand it) you have to be a really old character to steal effectively these days, so they all feel invincible and if you call in one of your friends to deal with it they will just scream "policy 4!!!" and call it a day.

PS: None of this was about you Falgrin, just a general observation.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<and if you call in one of your friends to deal with it they will just scream "policy 4!!!" and call it a day.>>

Rules are rules.

[Artha]

you have to be a really old character to steal effectively these days

Untrue. You just have to know your limits and be smart about picking marks.

Quick guidelines:
Any locksmith tools/items, you don't get stolen from.
Ranger, you don't get stolen from.
Any bow/archery items, you don't get stolen from.
Sorcerer, I take your wands, not your gems.
Anyone who has 1 coin, all your herb are belong to us.
Anyone with a title on gets looked at first, they have the best loot and are most confident about not getting stolen from.

[Axhinde]

While I'm not 100% sure on the thief giving it back, when caught "Bringing in another character" is not needed. If you can't handle the situations you get into with that character, you can fully get out of them with that character.

[Bobmuhthol]

I think Drew was referring to old thieves who can pwn their targets, but won't stand for the victim bringing somebody else into it. No matter who you are, bringing other characters in makes you lose. I guess he doesn't see it the same way, though.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
I think Drew was referring to old thieves who can pwn their targets, but won't stand for the victim bringing somebody else into it. No matter who you are, bringing other characters in makes you lose. I guess he doesn't see it the same way, though.


Correct: for your edification, here's policy 4:



>policy 4

GemStone IV Player Policy: Player vs Player Conflict

There are elements in GemStone IV that promote a competitive environment. GemStone IV has been designed to promote competition as player vs. creature, or player vs. puzzle, and not generally player vs. player.

Some events (such as the Gladiatorial Games), encourage player vs. player combat in a structured setting. Also, some players will choose to role-play a competitive situation between themselves, and will combat each other, which is acceptable. What is not acceptable is to initiate combat against unsuspecting victims, especially to prey upon weaker players for the singular enjoyment of the attacker. As a rule of thumb, Character vs. Character (role-playing -CvC) combat is acceptable, while Player vs. Player (OOC or disruptive - PvP) is not.

There are many gray areas in terms of defining what is acceptable competition, and what is abusive behavior. For example, a pickpocket stealing items or silvers. This *can* be considered an open invitation for CvC, but losing 25 silvers isn't exactly cause for death. Losing large amounts might be though. Another example, the classic duel (Character 1: You have insulted my honor and I must defend that to the death! Character 2: Have at thee Knave!) is on the surface acceptable, but on the other hand saying dueling (Player 1: Wanna duel? Player 2: Yeah) isn't as it can be considered OOC.

In general, Simutronics will not get involved in a conflict confined to a small group of players unless it threatens to overlap to others or cause a generally disruptive influence on the game.



The way I read it, I don't see it as at all OOC or PvP to call in a friend to help force a thief to give you back your items.

Acceptable: Thinking, using 605, animal companion, familar, society thoughts, to summon a friend to your location. He/she joins the conflict and attempts to convince the thief to return the stolen goods. The thief refuses, much shouting and posturing ensues, combat results.


Unnacceptable: IMing you friend and telling he/she to log on, they come in the room and start swinging.


One of my characters would never ask a friend for help, most likely he would attack you though, even if it was completely obvious he'd get destroyed (Bob can attest to this), because being stolen from would be a personal affront to his honour. Most of my others would have no problem calling in a friend and most likely would. I've played that way for a very long time now and I've never even gotten a send about, so I'm not going to betray how I feel my characters would react because someone feels it's against policy.

[Edited on 8-15-2004 by Drew]

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Unnacceptable: IMing you friend and telling he/she to log on, they come in the room and start swinging.>>

This happens 9 times out of 9.1, though.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<Unnacceptable: IMing you friend and telling he/she to log on, they come in the room and start swinging.>>

This happens 9 times out of 9.1, though.

I will agree with that, which makes every situation where someone comes in to back up their friend suspect, which is a shame in my mind.

[Chadj]

I'm guilty of that myself...

[OOC]-randomnamex: OMG IM TOTALLY FUCKING WITH SILLVENTO AGAIN

[OOC]-You: $1274918265 SAYS I CAN KILL THEM WITHIN 2 SECONDS!

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Jesae
I'm figuring most people realize I'm joking when I say to kill people for stupid reasons. I don't do it myself in-game, nor would I expect others to do it. But thank you for paying attention to every post I make, none-the-less.

You flatter yourself.
I noticed an inconsistency in your thread started from the moral high ground, and your "kill him for saying the word 'report' out loud" statement in this thread - even though his use of the word report was IC.

Made me laugh.
Thanks for coming clean though.
Nothing worse than someone caught out for being a hypocrite then saying "I WAS ONLY JOKING! EVERYONE KNOWS THAT!"
Good job you didnt do that, hey? ;)

[Weedmage Princess]

>>Anyone who has 1 coin, all your herb are belong to us.<<

ROFL.

Edited to add: I love how all of PB's posts regarding something in the game start out with him reaching in someone's pockets...LOL

[Edited on 8-15-2004 by Weedmage Princess]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Blazing247
I guess it's all perspective. I used to catch thieves for a living, and I would hardly consider any thief "good" if I knew their name, and if they hit the same place often enough for me to know their face as a thief on sight.

Falgrin is clearly a consistent and adequate roleplayer, but I can't say that he roleplays a thief. More of an arrogant bully.

I'm not trying to make Falgrin the end all be all "It takes a thief" type of character. He IS arrogant. He IS a bully. A real thief would be someone you never ever see. Someone you have no idea about. Someone you have never probably heard of.

Unfortunately.. two things make this impossible. First and foremost.. I like the attention Falgrin gets. If he was a real thief.. it would be a very lonely character to play. Second, the game mechanics almost prevent this from happening AND making it worth while. With GS4, the thief and the mark are on more equal terms than anytime in Gemstone. Marks have a much better chance of catching the thief today. Perception helps. Levels help. Environment helps. Less crowds help.

So you are right.. Falgrin is not a well roleplayed thief in the strict sense of the word. I never met him to be.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by The Cat In The Hat
Falgrin is an excellent roleplayer

I agree, except with this line:


Originally posted by Parkbandit
You say, "Oh crap.. I am."

:no:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Blazing247
I don't get it. You have a park that you claim you own. You sit in that park every day, and steal from people significantly younger than you. When someone tries to sunburst you from hiding, albeit annoyingly, you garrote them?

I'm not defending Delcon as he was being a fucking n00b, but I just don't understand the point of the post. If you make no effort to roleplay a thief, why should he make any effort to roleplay a victim?

The park claiming is something that has been made part of who Falgrin is. Most of his alters are part of this roleplay. Here's some examples:

a cleverly embellished document: This offical looking document is penned in bold black lettering with the following proclaimation: "I, the somewhat offical mayor of Wehnimer's Landing, do hereby deed the park south of the bank to Falgrin. Let it be known to all that enter as Falgrin's Grove."

a dark dwarven vest: Comprised of dark leather with tiny invar studs, the vest is designed to be sturdy yet stylish. Several small pockets have been sewn to the inside, some partially concealed to carry various treasures gathered by the wearer. Attached to the inside is a small tag which bears the inscription, "If found please return to The Park Bandit, Wehnimer's Landing."

a tiny dwarven bandit pin: Engraved on the back of the pin are the words, "Ignorance has a price and I'm here to collect on your outstanding balance."

a black round button: The button is engraved with the words, "YOU HAVE BEEN VISITED BY THE PARK BANDIT."

a ragged piece of fine vellum:
Large letters on the vellum read, "Give me all your silver, and no one will be hurt."

You tap a gnarled mistwood broomstick.

You tap a heavy-duty black feather duster with a dagger handle.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by The Cat In The Hat
Falgrin is an excellent roleplayer

I agree, except with this line:


Originally posted by Parkbandit
You say, "Oh crap.. I am."

:no:

Falgrin can't say crap?

Perhaps crap is too recent... I just never thought of it as a modern slang. My bad if it is.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Blazing247

I've never once been stolen from by him, but I think that has alot to do with the fact that I was level 160.

Being level 160 does not make you impervious to Falgrin stealing from you. If you showed ignorance, especially in the park.. you were stolen from. Give me your character's name and I can check my logs. :)

Did not notice <= not getting stolen from

[Ardwen]

Okay we seriously need to stop making Falgrin park items its all gone to his head!


Ardwen

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Ardwen
Okay we seriously need to stop making Falgrin park items its all gone to his head!


Ardwen

Hmm...by looking at that long list of nice stuff, I'm guessing that someone must really :love: him. :kisses:

And that at least one person likes him. :lol:


-TRL

Thief is not an in all inclusive title. One can easily be a thief\murderer\stock broker\ violinist\ crack dealer etc that doesn't mean that he isn't a "thief".

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady

Originally posted by Ardwen
Okay we seriously need to stop making Falgrin park items its all gone to his head!


Ardwen

Hmm...by looking at that long list of nice stuff, I'm guessing that someone must really :love: him. :kisses:

And that at least one person likes him. :lol:


-TRL

Ardwen loves me? That frightens me :(

[DeV]

Falgrin's speech makes my ears bleed. However, he is a grade A roleplayer...nice show of restraint there PB.

[Blazing247]

<Being level 160 does not make you impervious to Falgrin stealing from you. If you showed ignorance, especially in the park.. you were stolen from. Give me your character's name and I can check my logs. >

Doubtful. I haven't hung around the park in ages, mostly because my character lived in Illistim, and also because the park is full of assholes and "spellz me up d00ds". I didn't hang out in TSC or TSSW back when they were the spots for that same reason.

Getting back to my point, I am not saying you are a bad person, or that you don't roleplay well. I have no problems with you as a person, and I think you roleplay adequately. My problem was that you had no reason to garrote this person, considering he was obviously considerably younger than you and didn't do a thing besides protect himself. You must admit, a considerable portion of your conflict (at least that you post) arises from the fact that you prey on younger characters with stealing, and when they retaliate in any way they can you kill/harm them. I disagree with that form of playing, but to each their own.

[Artha]

My problem was that you had no reason to garrote this person, considering he was obviously considerably younger than you and didn't do a thing besides protect himself.

He walked in and started Sunbursting. That's like going to a gay bar in assless chaps and wondering why people are hitting on you.

[Nieninque]

:lol:

[StrayRogue]

Falgrin isn't like Shay or Qahaar: he doesn't instantly kill you the moment you accuse him of stealing. Falgrin is probably one of the better thieves in the game, simply on how he deals with the situations he creates in a fair, and often fun manner. He doesn't break character and he doesn't do it just to initialize "CvC", unlike the aforementioned "thieves".

[MrFeature]

Don't compare me to shay, I usually take off an arm first. But in all seriousness, I don't kill people unless they can hurt me back.

[Edited on 8-15-2004 by MrFeature]

[StrayRogue]

Shay is equally as immature as Qahaar. I'm sure most people will agree.

[Axhinde]

Originally posted by Blazing247
<Being level 160 does not make you impervious to Falgrin stealing from you. If you showed ignorance, especially in the park.. you were stolen from. Give me your character's name and I can check my logs. >

Doubtful. I haven't hung around the park in ages, mostly because my character lived in Illistim, and also because the park is full of assholes and "spellz me up d00ds". I didn't hang out in TSC or TSSW back when they were the spots for that same reason.

Getting back to my point, I am not saying you are a bad person, or that you don't roleplay well. I have no problems with you as a person, and I think you roleplay adequately. My problem was that you had no reason to garrote this person, considering he was obviously considerably younger than you and didn't do a thing besides protect himself. You must admit, a considerable portion of your conflict (at least that you post) arises from the fact that you prey on younger characters with stealing, and when they retaliate in any way they can you kill/harm them. I disagree with that form of playing, but to each their own.

I believe the garrote was an attempt to teach Delcon to not Sunburst, which is not taking advantage of higher levels. How could Falgrin know exactly how old Delcon was? He couldn't without seeing AS or DS numbers. It was a good idea at informing Delcon know, "Sunburst will not be appreciated here." Keep in mind he did let go.

I think one time I tried to leg a "Fal" in the park, and hit someone completely different. It was cool kind of.

[Parkbandit]

As Axhinde mentioned.. I had zero clue on how old Delcon was. I knew he was old enough to sunburst Falgrin from hiding and that he was brought in to 'deal' with Falgrin.. so my initial assumption was that he was at least as old as Falgrin. I gave him ample opportunity to stop, but he chose conflict instead. And I didn't kill him.. I merely gave ihm a neck bleeder.

You make it sound like I have some master list of every character below me in trainings and that is how I determine who I steal from. This would be an incorrect assumption.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<knew he was old enough to sunburst Falgrin from hiding>>

A level 10 ranger probably could. It's no age indicator.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<knew he was old enough to sunburst Falgrin from hiding>>

A level 10 ranger probably could. It's no age indicator.

If a level 10 ranger could.. and a level 9 ranger could not.. it actually IS an age indicator.

I know him to be older than level 9.

So there Bob.. eat that!

[Artha]

Oh, I forgot Falgrin. You hurt someone in the park. Ergo, you must hurt everyone in the park or you are being inconsistent. Sorry for the bad news :(

[Blazing247]

Ah, casting sunburst is choosing conflict? I wasn't aware. I'll have to remember that.

[Hulkein]

He did it in a combatitive manner. It's pretty simple to distinguish the difference, especially when the person admits it.

I don't see why you have a problem with what Falgrin did. I think he roleplayed it very well and showed fine restraint.

[Nieninque]

I am careful about casting sunburst in public places with Snowy.
It's just rude. On the occasions I do it and discover people hiding that I didnt want to (which lets face it, if your in the park is going to be every time) I apologise and then hide quickly. As a ranger you know it pisses people off.

If you continually cast it, you are looking at some kind of repercussions. If you have no obvious reason for casting it, you are lucky not to lose a limb or more.

Falgrin did less than most people would in the same circumstances. I know Snowy has legged someone who kept sunbursting her for no reason and she wasnt even stealing. I have seen other people kill in similar situations.

[Blazing247]

No, he didn't do it in a combative manner. He did it in a VERY FUCKING ANNOYING manner, which is vastly different. It's "pretty simple to distinguish the difference". If it were in the wilds, and it posed a serious threat to Falgrin, I can see it as combative. I don't have a problem with Falgrin, I just disagree with what he did. You won't make me see it your way, and I won't make you see it mine. No point in arguing. Just a quick lesson on spells...

Combative attack spells: e-blast, boil earth, ToD, shock bolt, etc.
Combative utility spells: mass calm, call wind, e-wave, etc.
Non-combative utility spells: sunburst, phase, WoO, WoD, etc.
Questionable spells: darkness, light, airwall, etc.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<WoO>>

What the fuck?

[Blazing247]

Right, but was he casting it for the hell of it, or was he casting it as a repurcussion because he and/or a friend of his was stolen from? Are there to be repurcussions to the repurcussions? When does it stop? It's not like he decided to do it to piss Falgrin off, correct? If I knew sunburst, and I knew someone was trying to pick my pocket, I'd cast it all day long till they left. That's wrong how?

[Edaarin]

Heh. If someone Sunbursts repeatedly in a room I'm trying to rest in you can bet that person is going to lose a hand. I ask politely for them to stop, and if I don't I'm going to assume that they're trying to stir up trouble, at which point I will oblige them.

The most annoying thing ever is when it's on the dais or most anywhere in EN (sanct capital of the game), and someone comes up with the excuse, "I don't like it when I can't see someone." Annoys the crap out of me.

[Bobmuhthol]

The only problem is squares don't have shit like sunburst. You fuck with a square, the only thing they can do is attack you, and that's exactly what happened. Sure, Falgrin could have cast sleep, but guess what? He has garrote, not sleep. I don't see why Delcon gets to be a fucking idiot because he happens to be a ranger.

[Blazing247]

<The most annoying thing ever is when it's on the dais or most anywhere in EN (sanct capital of the game), and someone comes up with the excuse, "I don't like it when I can't see someone." Annoys the crap out of me. >

And I completely agree. I despise people who point out hiders for no reason other than they "don't like people hiding around them". However, it's not grounds for killing them, and secondly, this scenario is different in that he had a reason to do what he did. I'm not saying Delcon isn't a fucking idjit, I'm saying that Falgrin didn't have a reason to kill him. He was stealing, it was known that a thief was in the area, and someone decided to make it hard for him to steal from them.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I'm saying that Falgrin didn't have a reason to kill him.>>

He also didn't kill him.

<<and someone decided to make it hard for him to steal from them.>>

Sunburst does not affect stealing at all.

[Edited on 8-16-2004 by Bobmuhthol]

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Blazing247 And I completely agree. I despise people who point out hiders for no reason other than they "don't like people hiding around them". However, it's not grounds for killing them, and secondly, this scenario is different in that he had a reason to do what he did. I'm not saying Delcon isn't a fucking idjit, I'm saying that Falgrin didn't have a reason to kill him. He was stealing, it was known that a thief was in the area, and someone decided to make it hard for him to steal from them.

First, Falgrin didn't kill him. Second, as demonstrated in the log, Falgrin doesn't NEED to be hidden to steal, so repeatedly casting sunburst just keeps him from remaining hidden. How does that actually make it harder for him to steal? The guy was an asshole, it appears he was sent in by the player of the other character to annoy. I think that Falgrin handled it perfectly.

The gentleman protests too much, methinks.

-TRL

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Blazing247
And I completely agree. I despise people who point out hiders for no reason other than they "don't like people hiding around them". However, it's not grounds for killing them, and secondly, this scenario is different in that he had a reason to do what he did. I'm not saying Delcon isn't a fucking idjit, I'm saying that Falgrin didn't have a reason to kill him. He was stealing, it was known that a thief was in the area, and someone decided to make it hard for him to steal from them.

Which would be fine for your character perhaps Blazing.. but Falgrin? You yourself said he was an arrogant bully... would it NOT be in character for him to do exactly what he did?

Like I said, I'm not playing Falgrin to be everyone's friend and most popular character ever... far from it.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I'm not playing Falgrin to be everyone's friend and most popular character ever... far from it.

Good to hear, because if you were - you suck at it.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I'm not playing Falgrin to be everyone's friend and most popular character ever... far from it.

Good to hear, because if you were - you suck at it.

When you play one of these type characters.. you know going in you will piss many people off. You will have very few opportunities at RPAs and you will have trouble with some GMs that only like Disney based characters. You know you run the risk of people taking their frustrations out on your younger characters.

I know the risks, but the rewards have far outweighed them... at least to me and hopefully others that I have been able to entertain.

[Wezas]

Totally understand where you're coming from, PB.

My character a while ago started to not like Dark Elves - at all. It was a direction I wanted to go in. The problem arose when friends from the past (who were dark elves) come up to me and hug me. I'm stuck with the decision of:

a) Being inconsistant and greeting them back.
b) Being rude to them/insulting them, refusing to admit that I know/like them.
c) Go OOC and whisper to them that I don't like their kind anymore.
d) Ignoring them.

[Parkbandit]

It's why it's very hard to change a roleplay of a known character. Better to roll up another one.

Thank god Falgrin's always been an asshole :)

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

True.

[Parkbandit]

Falgrin > Tayvin. If Falgrin = Asshole, then Tayvin = x

Solve for X.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Falgrin > Tayvin. If Falgrin = Asshole, then Tayvin = x

Solve for X.

X = less of an asshole?

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Wezas
X = less of an asshole?

:lol2:

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

The defense rests, your honor.

[Parkbandit]

God.. and I did so well in Calc too.....

By the way, I hate Wezas.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
God.. and I did so well in Calc too.....

By the way, I hate Wezas.

Just trying to be helpful.

Wezas, who dropped calc twice before giving up on it

[Caiylania]

I'm curious, I was in the park. And someone named Shisshio(sp?) kept tiptoeing by me. So I pointed him out, when he asked why I told him it was because he was disturbing me walking around so loudly. I am not a pointer, I don't on purpose try to find people. But the guy SUCKED at it and kept doing it, so I pointed him out again and asked him to be quiet.
He asked how he was 'disturbing me' if he was tiptoeing. I told him cause he sucks at it and his 'tiptoeing' is more like stomping it is so loud. He got kinda upset.

Is this acceptable pointing or would I get a perty necklace?

[Skirmisher]

They need to learn to hide better.
:moon:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Caiylania

Is this acceptable pointing or would I get a perty necklace?

He does have a point.. you aren't bothered by people walking in and out of the park... only someone that is trying to remain hidden and tip toeing?

Personally.. anyone who points anyone out from hiding has initiated a possible conflict roleplay and should be aware of the repercussions.

[Caiylania]

I guess the difference to me would be, people walking in and out are going somewhere, arriving, leaving.......

Having the same guy tiptoe by you over and over and over is annoying. If he wants to stay in hiding, he should stop doing it.

If someone is hiding in bushes, and keeps making the leaves move, is it not their fault for being found?

[SnatchWrangler]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<WoO>>

What the fuck?

Word of Opening (407)