Student loans

[Gnome Rage]

So, I think we've all come to realize that GR is financially illiterate. I would like words of wisdom from all of y'all.

I have to fill out a form if I want to ask for more than my needs assessment through my graduate school, (which is around 22k).

I'm not sure if it would be better for me to tack on a few more thousand to this unsub loan or if I should do a private loan (credit union or big bank or like... sallie mae).

anyways, I have to run to class and I'll give more info if you all need it but I'm curious to see what you guys think is the best choice here, and I know I'm pretty uninformed when it comes to financial matters so I'm hoping you can all give me some advice to at least get me started.

I've been trying to teach myself more about loans and crap but I suck. lol

[Merala]

It would depend on where you can get a better rate and better conditions. If a private bank or credit union will give you a lower rate, or better terms (such as interest doesn't accrue when you're still enrolled in more than half-time, etc.). Otherwise I would just stick with the unsub since it's pretty much a guaranteed loan so long as you haven't defaulted in the past.

[msconstrew]

Yeah. You need to find out what rates are available to you, which will in turn guide you about whether to take the unsubsidized option or go the private loan route. Personally, I think that the Sallie Mae loan will probably give you the better interest rate, but that's based on what I saw when I was in school.

As to Merala's point about whether the interest accrues while you're in school, unsubsidized loans are by definition loans that accrue interest while you're in school. Subsidized loans are the ones where the government pays the interest while you're in school and are the best ones to get for obvious reasons. Virtually no private loan will ever be subsidized, so if you're looking at a subsidized loan then you're looking at federal loans. And, unfortunately, as of July 2012, the government no longer offers subsidized loans for graduate students. So you're stuck with interest accruing.

The other thing you need to look at are the repayment terms. What's the length of the repayment period? And is there any penalty for paying early? And then, finally, when you graduate you will want to look at whether you can consolidate some or all of your loans. I don't know if you have any from college, but you cannot consolidate private loans with federal loans. And you will need to pay attention to whether you can get a fixed interest rate, too.

So, tl;dr: federal is probably the better way to go. The maximum you can borrow from the federal Stafford loan program at this time is $20,500, so you will either need to find a way to fill the gap from savings or family or take out another small loan. You will also need to figure out how you intend to pay for your room and board - if you're not using savings or your family's not helping or you don't have a job that will pay for it ... then you will likely need to take out additional money for living expenses.

This site says that the current interest rate on unsubsidized federal loans is 6.8%.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized

[Keller]

I am sure you and Alex could work out a fee for services arrangement where he could help you with the loan issue.

[Narthsin]

Whatever you do, try take out a little as you can. Try for scholarships and grants first, and work your ass off before you rely on student loans to pay bills or buy school books/supplies. You may not think you'd qualify for a scholarship, but tons of money never gets used because people don't apply.

I put myself through college and only (only) have around 20k of student loans right now, and it still costs me over $300 a month now that I've graduated and have a 'real' job. That's low end to what a lot of people have, and it still hurts the bank account every month.

I even have half of it deferred right now since I don't make a ton, but the amount I have deferred just sits there and charges me interest. If I let it go long enough I'll end up owing more than I'm paying.

What's been said about unsubsidized loans is definitely key. Interest adds up in a big big way in the long run, so just try to be smart. Go with subsidized loans whenever you can so that you're not getting charged for 4-5 years of interest before you even get started paying it back.

Edit:


And, unfortunately, as of July 2012, the government no longer offers subsidized loans for graduate students. So you're stuck with interest accruing.


Ewww, I didn't know that. This definitely doesn't help my motivation to go back to school.

[Bobmuhthol]

The answer on how best to approach this really depends on your income prospects. If you're definitely getting $X in loans either way, private lenders might be better for you, assuming your credit isn't bad.

The 6.8% interest figure above is for unsubsidized Stafford loans. You're going to exhaust all of your Stafford loans first for two reasons: your school dictates how much you can borrow, so you aren't going to borrow more than they tell you; and private lenders will not give you a loan until you've maxed out your Stafford capacity.

The interest rate you will pay on government loans beyond Stafford limits is 7.9%. I believe you will also be paying a 4% loan origination fee through the government. I strongly recommend not doing this and going with Sallie Mae.

I will gladly accept photos of your chest as compensation for this and further advice.

[Gnome Rage]

I don't believe I have any option of a subsidized loan. As far as I can tell, the school has assessed my need at 22k, they told me I need to fill out a form, on which they are confirming my credits (17 per semester) and then asking if I request more money than what has been assessed. They don't guarantee that you'll get it, but you can ask for more out of the unsub loan.

I currently have 14k in private loans from Wells Fargo, as well as around 50k in unsub loans (over 4 years) for my undergraduate degree. Tuition at the school is only 14k for the entire year, about 1k for books. I do not have a job lined up in MA, but I will be hopefully moving up 2 months prior to the start of my MSW in order to search for a job, at best it would part time and likely minimum wage. I know that I -will- need loans in order to cover personal expenses and ensure that I will be able to pay rent, etc.

As far as I can tell, I need to look into the interest rates on sallie mae, private bank loans, and credit unions in MA, I heard that CUs give better rates than private banks or sallie mae, but I'm not sure this is actually accurate.

I'm also not sure of what to estimate for my rent needs, I said 750 x 12 months because my current rent is 550 and my utilities are outrageous, ranging from 200-400 total because of electric heat and the fact my windows are completely fucked. :| Anyways, using that number I'll need 9k for rent/utilities, but I also don't know if this is realistic for the Westfield/Springfield/Holyoke area.

My assessment includes room and board at the school which is a little over 9k, so I'm not sure if I SHOULD take more out at all, or if I should just take the 22k and hope it ends up being enough.

[Bobmuhthol]

Always borrow the most that you think you'll need. There is no penalty for paying it early, but there is a cost for asking for more later. People will probably think that I'm out of my mind, but I borrowed the maximum amount and will be using the excess money as a cushion to make payments from while I get situated after graduating. I've also invested a lot of it, which is probably not something that most people would consider, but I am earning more than my cost on that money.

You need to be a member of a credit union to do business with it. You probably will get a better rate, but you can't just walk in and ask for it, depending on who it is.

If you have absolutely no subsidized loan offered to you, it is because your school is not well funded. They would give you a Perkins loan otherwise.

When you're talking about taking out a loan in the 20-30k range, a point isn't a huge deal. Maybe $15/mo on a 10-year loan, and that's the difference between 7% or 8% on $30k. You need to avoid costs today because you have no money today, and that's where all-in cost (particularly origination fees) matter a lot more than what interest rate is being offered to you. The length of the loan also matters -- my largest loan is priced at 8 years, and I'm dying to refinance it to reduce my monthly payment.

[Gnome Rage]

Unfortunately, the school just received accreditation last year or the year prior, which means obviously that there are going to be bugs with the program, and likely with funding and such. Wells Fargo isn't really available in the area of Westfield (to my knowledge) so I will likely need to have an account with another bank, which I have been meaning to do for 2 years now because I absolutely hate W.F.

I don't want to bury myself in student loan debt, however I also do not want to screw myself over by running out of money or something like that.

[Category Mistake]

I worked as a financial aid officer for two years. The advice above is accurate. In almost every case you would want to stick with the Unsubsidized Stafford. The rate on this loan is usually better unless you have a relationship with a bank and strong credit. More importantly, you will usually have more options for deferring and repaying the Stafford loan once you finish school. If you max out your Stafford loans in a given year, most schools offer a government backed Graduate PLUS loan that lets you borrow up to the cost of attendance. If it helps you feel better at all, I routinely watched parents of undergraduates and graduate students independently borrow $52,000 a year for 3 - 4 years while earning a degree in the liberal arts.

[Gnome Rage]

That makes me feel a little better. Being nearly 100k in debt when I'm done with my masters us absolutely not appealing, but at least what I'm looking to borrow isn't astronomically above average.

[BriarFox]

I wouldn't feel good about 100k in loans. It might be "average," but so is a C.

[Stretch]

Please tell me that you are getting your masters in a field that will help you pay down that mountain of debt.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I worked three different jobs simultaneously so I could graduate with no debt. My recommendation would be get a job, or jobs, and pay as much as as you can while maintaining grades. Graduating college and then entering the workforce with debt that'll take years, possibly decades, to pay back can't feel good.

[msconstrew]

Yeah, I have to agree with the line of thought that says maybe you should save some money first. But if that's not possible, then be as frugal as possible, work as much as possible, and pay them down ASAP. $100k in debt may be average, but my friends who graduated with that much and more are paying the equivalent of a mortgage every month.

[Bobmuhthol]

I don't recommend working while in school, unless you think you're going to make nearly as much as you will when you graduate. Otherwise, what's the point?

[msconstrew]

Uhh, I worked through college and law school and did just fine.

[Bobmuhthol]

That's fine, but you aren't looking at the situation like an economist. If your money in per hour is going to go up soon, and you can borrow money now to pay back later, you very quickly hit a corner solution of deferring work. I didn't say working will kill you, but I did say and it is true that working for less money is not efficient.

[msconstrew]

I made $30/hour in law school. 20 hours/week during the school year and 40 hours/week over breaks and summer. Let's assume I took four weeks off per year (studying for finals and vacation), so there were only 48 weeks in the year during which to work. 30 weeks of part time work and 18 weeks of full time work equals approximately $40k/year. My first job out of law school (clerkship) paid $47k. I graduated with $56k in debt, all federal, and which was paid off within three years of graduation. It can work out.

However, I realize GR's situation is much different because she's going into a very different field.

[Bobmuhthol]

I'm not sure how you managed to make like 35% more as a part time employee while being a student, but that sounds like a really obvious exception to my saying don't work unless you get paid nearly as much as you will upon graduating.

[msconstrew]

Because I worked for a law firm that paid hourly when I was a student. Clerkships are for the state and they are notoriously underpaid because they are highly sought after post-graduation positions.

[Gnome Rage]

Please tell me that you are getting your masters in a field that will help you pay down that mountain of debt.
Absolutely not, this is America c'mon.


Honestly, I'm looking at anywhere from 40k-90k a year depending on what position I am hired into upon graduation. I'm still looking at like 2 years for a license which will allow me to take insurance and have private practice, if I so desire, which can be lucrative. The most likely scenario is a 45-50k/yr job for the next 2 years.

[Sean]

Is it really 100k in debt to get your undergrad and an MSW? I have a several friends with the same masters and with post masters certificates that don't have great income prospects. I hope it works out for you and it all works out I'm just surprised by that figure.

[Gnome Rage]

Is it really 100k in debt to get your undergrad and an MSW? I have a several friends with the same masters and with post masters certificates that don't have great income prospects. I hope it works out for you and it all works out I'm just surprised by that figure.
I'll actually look back at my award history and add up exactly what it was in a second, I'm pretty sure its around 50k unsub loans 14k private loans and then 20something (per semester is their "assessment" for me)+w/e for grad school

[Bobmuhthol]

Is it really 100k in debt to get your undergrad and an MSW? I have a several friends with the same masters and with post masters certificates that don't have great income prospects. I hope it works out for you and it all works out I'm just surprised by that figure.Debt is a function of savings. Is the cost of an undergrad degree and a master's 100k? My degrees cost 300k, where about 210k of that is tuition.

[Sean]

Debt is a function of savings. Is the cost of an undergrad degree and a master's 100k? My degrees cost 300k, where about 210k of that is tuition.

I'm not debating that. I'm just surprised that her degree in particular is so costly.

[Category Mistake]

The cost of a degree can vary pretty wildly. If you attend a private school where the tuition and living expenses add up to around $50,000 a year, then you can end up $200,000 in debt for just the undergraduate degree. Your major is irrelevant. Compare that to a student who finishes 2 years of school at a community college and then moves to a state school for the last two and graduates with $20,000 in debt.

This is all assuming that the student has no grants or scholarships. Harvard, for instance, has a ton of money and "meets need" so a student from a poor background could receive an education there without any debt.

[Gnome Rage]

I'm not debating that. I'm just surprised that her degree in particular is so costly.
Tuition doesn't change based on major, the only change is in-state vs out of state and the cost of books. Unless you're taking credits individually and even then I'm pretty sure it is a standard rate. 4 years at my college costs x regardless of major. I was a RA for 2 years, which meant that I didn't have to pay room and board but tuition cost is the same. I also got 2x $500 scholarships. But everything else was either out of pocket (probably about 2-3k a year) or loans.

[Narthsin]

Yeah, ouch... MSW isn't going to net you anything more than 45k -50k a year on average. With 100k of student loans to boot? That's going to be painful.

The plus side is that there are programs for service related fields, and MSW jobs in particular where you can get your Student Loans forgiven after so many years in the field. There's a rural something something one that pays like 20k per year in Student Loan forgiveness on top of whatever salary you have. but you'd be out in some puny little town in New Mexico for 2-5 years.

I've heard of other programs that take 5-10 years for working for qualifying agencies.

I'd think those would definitely worth looking into if you're dead set on a MSW. But whether those programs will be funded or exist by the time you graduate is another story though.

[Latrinsorm]

You may not know this but Gnome Rage is from Connecticut, the bread basket and hallmark of rural living in America. The only culture shock going to New Mexico would generate is not shoveling in the winters.

[Keller]

Wait - you're going 100k into debt for an MSW? Did I read that correctly?

That sounds awful.

[Back]

Forget loans. Get a job and get paid to learn how to do something.

[AnticorRifling]

G.I. Bill + work paying for classes = mortgage payment every month covered without touching take home pay just by going college BOOOOOOM!

[Category Mistake]

When I was in financial aid, a Music PhD student came in with over $500,000 in student loan debt. Stafford Loans have a lifetime maximum, so the majority of this debt was attached to commercial (bank) and Graduate PLUS loans. The student had just failed his comprehensive exams and I still wonder if he did so on purpose in order to stay in school longer.

The government, roaming animal that it is, will eventually turn its attention to reforming this broken system. Now, people need loans, and the example here is extreme, but we should be managing this whole college education thing differently.

[Back]

The government, roaming animal that it is, will eventually turn its attention to reforming this broken system. Now, people need loans, and the example here is extreme, but we should be managing this whole college education thing differently.

Education should be free and not chained to a banker's pockets.

[AnticorRifling]

Education should be free and not chained to a banker's pockets.

Explain your plan for this "free" education, this should be good.

[BriarFox]

Education is free. It's called the library.

[Delias]

Education is free. It's called the library.

True. The certified documentation of education is what is so expensive.

[BriarFox]

Also the fact that many people are incapable for one reason or another of learning on their own.

[Back]

Explain your plan for this "free" education, this should be good.

http://i.imgur.com/NDOda.gif

[crb]

Always borrow the most that you think you'll need. There is no penalty for paying it early, but there is a cost for asking for more later. People will probably think that I'm out of my mind, but I borrowed the maximum amount and will be using the excess money as a cushion to make payments from while I get situated after graduating. I've also invested a lot of it, which is probably not something that most people would consider, but I am earning more than my cost on that money.

You need to be a member of a credit union to do business with it. You probably will get a better rate, but you can't just walk in and ask for it, depending on who it is.

If you have absolutely no subsidized loan offered to you, it is because your school is not well funded. They would give you a Perkins loan otherwise.

When you're talking about taking out a loan in the 20-30k range, a point isn't a huge deal. Maybe $15/mo on a 10-year loan, and that's the difference between 7% or 8% on $30k. You need to avoid costs today because you have no money today, and that's where all-in cost (particularly origination fees) matter a lot more than what interest rate is being offered to you. The length of the loan also matters -- my largest loan is priced at 8 years, and I'm dying to refinance it to reduce my monthly payment.

ROFL. It gets better. Taking on debt to invest in the stock market has never ended badly for anyone. Of course it is well established that Bob is not just anyone, but an exceptional person. Non exceptional people would be advised not to take this advice.

[msconstrew]

Also the fact that many people are incapable for one reason or another of learning on their own.

What are you talking about? Autodidacts are around every corner!

[Bobmuhthol]

ROFL. It gets better. Taking on debt to invest in the stock market has never ended badly for anyone. Of course it is well established that Bob is not just anyone, but an exceptional person. Non exceptional people would be advised not to take this advice.That's wonderful, but I've made 3.7% on the loan money I invested about 6 weeks ago. In that time, I've incurred 0.88% interest. I think I'm doing fine.

[crb]

That's fine, but you aren't looking at the situation like an economist. If your money in per hour is going to go up soon, and you can borrow money now to pay back later, you very quickly hit a corner solution of deferring work. I didn't say working will kill you, but I did say and it is true that working for less money is not efficient.

This is the worst advice I've ever heard. Don't work now because it isn't worth your time because in the future you hope to be able to earn more? Also Bob, you're not an economist, you are a student, you aren't an economist until someone pays you as part of a job title that includes the word economist. I'm also not an economist of course, merely a rational thinking human.

You might have a point if you're talking about deferring graduation so you can work, vs not working and graduating sooner. Assuming of course you feel sane in banking on the future. But assuming you're not extending the length of time you'll be a student by having a job, then have a job, work, and borrow less. You will be better off for it. If there is no time difference between when you graduate in either scenario then there is no opportunity cost for working, other than less time perhaps pretending to be an economist on an Internet forum, or being excited when the market has a good day and your portfolio goes up $100, but most people would probably be okay with that. Bonus points if you can get an entry level job related to the field in which you wish to end up. If you're going into elementary education you could be a nanny, if you're going into medicine you could be a medical receptionist, if you're going into the hard sciences you can work as a lab assistant. Work experience matters. As an employer someone who has been able to hold down a job while getting a degree is far more attractive to me than someone who hasn't worked in X years.

[crb]

That's wonderful, but I've made 3.7% on the loan money I invested about 6 weeks ago. In that time, I've incurred 0.88% interest. I think I'm doing fine.

Good for you playing arbitrage with other people's money, this has no potential to end badly. No one has ever lost their shirt betting borrowed money. Functionally it isn't that much different than borrowing from your bookie to bet on a basketball game, though I don't think Obama will kneecap you if you default on your student loans.

Oh course in the financial industry people use leverage every day (and many lose their shirts, see 2008), still, using student loans to do it has got to be one of the irresponsible things I've ever heard.

[Bobmuhthol]

It's not arbitrage, but thank you for the ridiculous sentiment.

[msconstrew]

This is the worst advice I've ever heard. Don't work now because it isn't worth your time because in the future you hope to be able to earn more? Also Bob, you're not an economist, you are a student, you aren't an economist until someone pays you as part of a job title that includes the word economist. I'm also not an economist of course, merely a rational thinking human.

You might have a point if you're talking about deferring graduation so you can work, vs not working and graduating sooner. Assuming of course you feel sane in banking on the future. But assuming you're not extending the length of time you'll be a student by having a job, then have a job, work, and borrow less. You will be better off for it. If there is no time difference between when you graduate in either scenario then there is no opportunity cost for working, other than less time perhaps pretending to be an economist on an Internet forum, or being excited when the market has a good day and your portfolio goes up $100, but most people would probably be okay with that. Bonus points if you can get an entry level job related to the field in which you wish to end up. If you're going into elementary education you could be a nanny, if you're going into medicine you could be a medical receptionist, if you're going into the hard sciences you can work as a lab assistant. Work experience matters. As an employer someone who has been able to hold down a job while getting a degree is far more attractive to me than someone who hasn't worked in X years.

I actually agree with your point here, crb, but there is an intangible opportunity cost in the form of grades. Arguably you will get better grades if you're not working because you can devote more time to studying. And better grades arguably lead to better employment prospects and more money down the road. That is not the way it has ever worked for me, but it's at least an argument in opposition to working while you're in school.

[Category Mistake]

From the liberal arts perspective, I think there is great value in the the kinds of discourse that go on in a classroom. The university experience is not essential for reading The Republic or for learning web design. You can set and meet your own learning goals without the university but you will have missed out on an experience of being formed and challenged in a particular way. There is something to be said for sitting at the feet of the master. There is something transformative in the experience of discussing great ideas with one's peers. This is the university ideal that has persisted for centuries.

Still, we need to increase the opportunities provided by online and non-traditional education as far as possible without sacrificing essential goals. And, as much as I love the liberal arts tradition, I would like to see every philosophy or history major required to give a serious accounting of plans for enhancing career prospects while in school. I would want real-world internships or a double major in a high demand topic made mandatory. If I ever end up in a position to press this idea forward at a university, I will do so.

[crb]

I actually agree with your point here, crb, but there is an intangible opportunity cost in the form of grades. Arguably you will get better grades if you're not working because you can devote more time to studying. And better grades arguably lead to better employment prospects and more money down the road. That is not the way it has ever worked for me, but it's at least an argument in opposition to working while you're in school.

Possibly, not for everyone, I don't know if you can generalize that. Will you study more or play more? And if you're working in your field of study are you not learning at work? Will lower grades matter to a future employer? Or would they value the work experience more? (me, I'd value the work experience). You know what they call the guy who graduated at the bottom of his medical school class? "Doctor." You know how much he makes? About the same as anyone else in his area.

[crb]

It's not arbitrage, but thank you for the ridiculous sentiment.

Ummm yes, borrowing money at X% then investing it at X+Y% is an arbitrage activity. You're attempting to earn the spread between the two rates. That is exactly what arbitrage is.

[Bobmuhthol]

The impact of grades depends on the field. Just about every hedge fund I've seen wants no less than 2000 on SAT, 3.5 GPA, and Ivy/equivalent names. I don't know of anyone, and I doubt there is anyone, who is working during my program. It would be an absolutely insane decision. Gnome Rage probably doesn't face the same environment as me, but working for the sake of working or earning any income isn't a sufficient reason to do it. Getting experience is fine, but that's different from working because it's hip or because minimum wage distractions are beneficial.

[Bobmuhthol]

Ummm yes, borrowing money at X% then investing it at X+Y% is an arbitrage activity. You're attempting to earn the spread between the two rates. That is exactly what arbitrage is.I know you want to sound cool, but you really don't know what arbitrage is. You are trying to tell me that every bank in the world is an arbitrageur, and I can promise you that they wouldn't agree with you.

[msconstrew]

The impact of grades depends on the field. Just about every hedge fund I've seen wants no less than 2000 on SAT, 3.5 GPA, and Ivy/equivalent names. I don't know of anyone, and I doubt there is anyone, who is working during my program. It would be an absolutely insane decision. Gnome Rage probably doesn't face the same environment as me, but working for the sake of working or earning any income isn't a sufficient reason to do it. Getting experience is fine, but that's different from working because it's hip or because minimum wage distractions are beneficial.

Whether you get good grades while working really depends on the person. Maybe no one in your program works. The majority of my law school class worked the same way that I did, and law schools encourage that kind of work because experience is very important. I would speculate that GR's program is similar to the extent that experience is really what's going to net you a good position, so working in her field may benefit her in multiple ways. But to say that a grad student should never work because it's not economically advisable is just untrue, especially as a blanket statement.

[Bobmuhthol]

But to say that a grad student should never work because it's not economically advisable is just untrue, especially as a blanket statement.I completely agree.

[BriarFox]

Gaining practical experience while in graduate school is exactly what you should be doing, in my mind, though it varies a bit by field. All the teaching, writing, and administrative work (along with my private tutoring business on the side, which was quite successful), was exactly what prepared me for the teaching postdoc I'm doing now, and what made me attractive to the school.

[Gnome Rage]

If I could afford to not work, I'd love to not work, but I also know that the likelihood of that happening is zero. That being said, I will have an internship which I will have to be at 4-5 days a week so part time work would most likely run me into the ground if I was working more than Sat/Sun (Evenings, 3rd shift, etc) BUT, if I were to get a position working in the field that I'm going to be entering, or something related, it does provide me with opportunities that I wouldn't have. I'm going to look for a job, whether or not I take one, or end up sticking to it, is kind of up in the air.

I know I will be getting the loan, I'm not sure how much I need yet.

I'm going to be around 50k, I believe coming out of my BSW, (waiting for fedloan to send my password cause I'm a dummy and forgot it), I can't access the numbers for my Freshman - Junior year (I'm not sure why the website isn't showing it) but I only borrowed 7,500 this year for school, using that is 30k for 4 yrs + 14k in my private loan, 44k. My MSW program is suggesting 22k per semester (2) so that's 44k again. 88k total if those numbers were all real, but they're not so I estimated.
lol

(If my math is wrong, don't even point it out... I hate math :( )

[Bobmuhthol]

I'm going to be around 50k, I believe coming out of my BSW, (waiting for fedloan to send my password cause I'm a dummy and forgot it), I can't access the numbers for my Freshman - Junior year (I'm not sure why the website isn't showing it) but I only borrowed 7,500 this year for school, using that is 30k for 4 yrs + 14k in my private loan, 44k. My MSW program is suggesting 22k per semester (2) so that's 44k again. 88k total if those numbers were all real, but they're not so I estimated.
lol
I currently have 14k in private loans from Wells Fargo, as well as around 50k in unsub loans (over 4 years) for my undergraduate degree.You seem to not know whether you have borrowed $44k or $64k, and I don't know how that's even possible.

[Gnome Rage]

You seem to not know whether you have borrowed $44k or $64k, and I don't know how that's even possible.I don't know because I know that my unsub loan was SUPPOSED to increase each year, but borrowing less than 7k per year doesn't make sense to me. Once I get my password from fedloan I'll have the exact numbers. Usually, these numbers are available on the school's eWeb financial aid portal, but it is only allowing me to see 2013-2014, 2012-2013 and 2009 and earlier.

It isn't allowing me to view the years that I took out loans.

[DoctorUnne]

Ummm yes, borrowing money at X% then investing it at X+Y% without risk is an arbitrage activity.

Fixed

[crb]

Gaining practical experience while in graduate school is exactly what you should be doing, in my mind, though it varies a bit by field. All the teaching, writing, and administrative work (along with my private tutoring business on the side, which was quite successful), was exactly what prepared me for the teaching postdoc I'm doing now, and what made me attractive to the school.

Don't try to be logical now, just because you're out now and working and have perspective. We should all defer to the wisdom for the student who, while not haven't been there, or done that, read about it and is sure he knows his own future and what his prospective future employer will value most. What use is experience when you have precognition?

[Geijon Khyree]

Education should be free and not chained to a banker's pockets.

In Europe the system is like that, albeit with less qualified schools, but it's widely free, almost. In comparison to US schools anyways.

[Bobmuhthol]

Don't try to be logical now, just because you're out now and working and have perspective. We should all defer to the wisdom for the student who, while not haven't been there, or done that, read about it and is sure he knows his own future and what his prospective future employer will value most. What use is experience when you have precognition?
I do not have a job lined up in MA, but I will be hopefully moving up 2 months prior to the start of my MSW in order to search for a job, at best it would part time and likely minimum wage.Maybe I am just out of touch with reality, but my part time, minimum wage work has never come up in the history of any discussion about my value as an employee. I can point to work for companies that I've done for free, projects that I've done for fun, and work that I got paid more than minimum wage for. But sure, advise this girl that it's a good idea to take a job that won't help her get hired later because she really needs an extra $100 every week.

[Geijon Khyree]

I went to community college for 2 years and got my undergraduate before I transferred to the state college, but all of my work experience is in the field I went to college for. Oddly I think if I had skipped college I'd make the same money, but it plateaus your growth potential. In the next 5 years I may have to consider higher education again myself, albeit unlikely, to advance deep into the six figure ranges later in my career.

My wife just went back to school to get a 4 year degree to augment her undergraduate/RN degree. Her next step would be a masters to become a nurse practitioner.

I worked for a few years after highschool to save enough money to largely pay for everything then did my two years. I worked through my state college years to minimize my loans and start a career. It turned out that way anyways. I was just working to work at the time.

In the end I had about 7K in debt or so. My wife has about 18K. Her growth potential is outrageous compared to the base college degree in most areas, although my field might in the long run have higher earning potential. She'll probably have made more money than me in the short term for 7 years or so. We're comparable, but I think she has me beat well into my mid-late 30s. People die on her, but leadership wise I have far more responsibilites.

I really think everyone should consider being a nurse. It's a 60-70K job pretty much automatically. MSW? Mid-40s nationally. You have to love it speaking as an outsider or marry wisely.

[Latrinsorm]

Don't try to be logical now, just because you're out now and working and have perspective. We should all defer to the wisdom for the student who, while not haven't been there, or done that, read about it and is sure he knows his own future and what his prospective future employer will value most. What use is experience when you have precognition?Not for nothing, but you've never considered hiring Gnome Rage either. I get that you really enjoy the book vs. street distinction, but you are applying it in a silly way.

[Tgo01]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread all that much, can someone tell me who is winning; crb or Bob?

[crb]

I went to community college for 2 years and got my undergraduate before I transferred to the state college, but all of my work experience is in the field I went to college for. Oddly I think if I had skipped college I'd make the same money, but it plateaus your growth potential. In the next 5 years I may have to consider higher education again myself, albeit unlikely, to advance deep into the six figure ranges later in my career.

My wife just went back to school to get a 4 year degree to augment her undergraduate/RN degree. Her next step would be a masters to become a nurse practitioner.

I worked for a few years after highschool to save enough money to largely pay for everything then did my two years. I worked through my state college years to minimize my loans and start a career. It turned out that way anyways. I was just working to work at the time.

In the end I had about 7K in debt or so. My wife has about 18K. Her growth potential is outrageous compared to the base college degree in most areas, although my field might in the long run have higher earning potential. She'll probably have made more money than me in the short term for 7 years or so. We're comparable, but I think she has me beat well into my mid-late 30s. People die on her, but leadership wise I have far more responsibilites.

I really think everyone should consider being a nurse. It's a 60-70K job pretty much automatically. MSW? Mid-40s nationally. You have to love it speaking as an outsider or marry wisely.

Nursing is very lucrative for what you put in it. A 2 year RN can make over $50k a year working 3 12s a week. If you were young and free and did locum tenens jobs you can do 6 figures.

[crb]

Maybe I am just out of touch with reality, but my part time, minimum wage work has never come up in the history of any discussion about my value as an employee. I can point to work for companies that I've done for free, projects that I've done for fun, and work that I got paid more than minimum wage for. But sure, advise this girl that it's a good idea to take a job that won't help her get hired later because she really needs an extra $100 every week.[/COLOR]

There is an employment issue I've heard economists, real ones mind you, talk about where people out of the work force have a hard time getting back into it.

As an employer if I have two people one with a degree who worked, and I don't really care if it is McDonalds, vs someone who hasn't worked since high school, or ever, really, if they didn't work in high school, it isn't a hard choice for me. If you held a job for McDonalds for 4 years while you were in school, I know you are dedicated and a hard worker, I know you value your employment, I know you're probably not a partier, not going to come in yawning.

Conversely if you had a resume that showed you had a new part time job every 6 months, this is a turnoff. The person who didn't work is unknown, but the person who couldn't hold a job longer than 6 months is a red flag. I'd rather take the unknown.

I'm less concerned with your grades, because a degree is not equivalent to job experience and there probably isn't a profession on earth that doesn't require on the job training no matter what degree you have, as I am with your reliability. Hiring people is annoying, training people takes time, energy, zaps productivity, I don't want to have to repeat the process if I don't think you're reliable, if I don't think you'll work hard because you haven't had to.

That is working at McDonalds, now if you had work experience in the actual field... and yes it can be minimum wage. You don't think a medical receptionist learns about EMRs, billing codes, appointment times (how much time procedures take), and a little medicine working in an office? Lab techs learn nothing of research? Teaching aides learn nothing of teaching? Universities, especially research ones, are vast sources of minimum wage jobs in relevant fields.

But ya, even someone who worked at McDonalds for 4 years while going to school would impress me.

My advice to GR would be to take out as much as you need, but no more, and live frugal, then work as much as you can at the best job you can get, ideally related to the type of work you want to go into. No one ever got poor by avoiding debt and earning money.

[Bobmuhthol]

If you held a job for McDonalds for 4 years while you were in school, I know you are dedicated and a hard worker, I know you value your employment, I know you're probably not a partier...Let me stop you right there. This is fucking stupid and wrong.
I'm less concerned with your grades, because a degree is not equivalent to job experience and there probably isn't a profession on earth that doesn't require on the job training no matter what degree you have, as I am with your reliability. Hiring people is annoying, training people takes time, energy, zaps productivity, I don't want to have to repeat the process if I don't think you're reliable, if I don't think you'll work hard because you haven't had to.Cool. Now tell this to, again, the very real companies who will not talk to you without good grades.
But ya, even someone who worked at McDonalds for 4 years while going to school would impress me.It's a good thing you aren't the rest of the world.
My advice to GR would be to take out as much as you need, but no more, and live frugal, then work as much as you can at the best job you can get, ideally related to the type of work you want to go into. No one ever got poor by avoiding debt and earning money.Just like no one ever got poor by taking a profit, right?

[EasternBrand]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread all that much, can someone tell me who is winning; crb or Bob?

I can tell you that with (i) an expected debt load of approximately $100,000 for (ii) a degree from a school accredited within the past two years (iii) in anticipation of an annual income of approximately $45,000, it's not clear to me who's winning but I know who isn't.

[Latrinsorm]

You don't think a medical receptionist learns about EMRs, billing codes, appointment times (how much time procedures take), and a little medicine working in an office?Would you ever let a receptionist operate on you?

[Back]

I can tell you that with (i) an expected debt load of approximately $100,000 for (ii) a degree from a school accredited within the past two years (iii) in anticipation of an annual income of approximately $45,000, it's not clear to me who's winning but I know who isn't.

It's tragic how our education system pays for bankers gilded foyers.

HamticorRifling asked how I thought we should pay for it. I would be more than happy if my tax dollars were reinvested in educating our own citizens.

[Tgo01]

Would you ever let a receptionist operate on you?

What you think just because someone has some fancy smancy degree from med school means they know more than a receptionist? You elitist bastard.

[Tgo01]

It's tragic how our education system pays for bankers gilded foyers.

HamticorRifling asked how I thought we should pay for it. I would be more than happy if my tax dollars were reinvested in educating our own citizens.

I can't wait until we get to the point where someone will come in and spoon feed me while I'm laying in bed watching TV.

[Gnome Rage]

I can tell you that with (i) an expected debt load of approximately $100,000 for (ii) a degree from a school accredited within the past two years (iii) in anticipation of an annual income of approximately $45,000, it's not clear to me who's winning but I know who isn't.

As I said, to get a degree from the MSW program is only 14k TOTAL. The previous debt that I have from my undergraduate degree is what is making the number so high.

[Bobmuhthol]

Then why are you borrowing $22,000 each semester?

[BriarFox]

Seriously. Borrow a few thousand per semester to eke by in a crappy apartment with roommates.

[Gnome Rage]

Then why are you borrowing $22,000 each semester?

I said the school assessed my need at 22k per semester (including the cost of R&B at the school which is 9k plus books and other arbitrary shit)

Tuition at the school is only 14k for the entire year, about 1k for books...

My assessment includes room and board at the school which is a little over 9k, so I'm not sure if I SHOULD take more out at all, or if I should just take the 22k and hope it ends up being enough.

I asked how much you all thought I should take out.

[Bobmuhthol]

I said the school assessed my need at 22k per semester (including the cost of R&B at the school which is 9k plus books and other arbitrary shit).Guess what, those are costs associated with the degree.

[Tgo01]

Well if you're already figuring 100k in debt and you don't seem too concerned with it I say borrow as much money as they're willing to loan you. I mean why not?

[Gnome Rage]

Seriously. Borrow a few thousand per semester to eke by in a crappy apartment with roommates.
I'm fine with that, but I was 1 of 2 people accepted into the advanced program so those who go in 2 yr don't want to go.

The other girl isn't interested in roommates because she wants to "start fresh" or some other bs. I've been creeping craigslist for roommate ads but no luck thus far.

[Gnome Rage]

Guess what, those are costs associated with the degree.No they aren't, it broke it down. It's like "estimated food costs" and shit like that, which are far too low anyways.


Well if you're already figuring 100k in debt and you don't seem too concerned with it I say borrow as much money as they're willing to loan you. I mean why not?

I am concerned about it, I can't change it now though. I can only change what I do in the future which is why I made the thread asking for advice in the first place.

[AnticorRifling]

It's tragic how our education system pays for bankers gilded foyers.

HamticorRifling asked how I thought we should pay for it. I would be more than happy if my tax dollars were reinvested in educating our own citizens.

So what you're saying is you're still a fucking idiot and don't understand what free means. Cool glad we cleared that up.

[Bobmuhthol]

No they aren't, it broke it down. It's like "estimated food costs" and shit like that, which are far too low anyways.Dude, you don't seem to understand. Paying rent is part of your costs. Eating food is part of your costs. Buying books is part of your cost. Tuition is like half the cost of a degree on average, sometimes substantially less (which it appears to be in your case).

My school budgets $2,247 for books, $2,000 for a computer, and $2,912 for transportation. I spent probably less than $400 for all my books and cases, $0 for a computer, and $35/mo for a T pass. I borrowed every one of those budgeted dollars regardless.

For what it's worth, I borrowed something like $33,000 beyond tuition for a year. About $14,000 of that is going toward rent up to my graduation date. If you manage to outspend a $44k loan for $14k in tuition, you've done something horribly fucking wrong, especially considering my rent is about 75% more expensive than yours will be. I haven't tracked how much of my original loans are still unspent, but it's easily more than $10,000.

[Suppressed Poet]

I hope you have a bomb-ass career after school and they give you a $100k signing bonus to help pay it off. That is all.

[Back]

So what you're saying is you're still a fucking idiot and don't understand what free means. Cool glad we cleared that up.

This is the only place where I get grief for good ideas, a positive attitude, and generosity. You being the administrator of this place makes you my number two enemy! My number one must be the evil genius Kranar.

Kranar, your dumb henchman cannot wilt my positivity!

[AnticorRifling]

This is the only place where I get grief for good ideas, a positive attitude, and generosity. You being the administrator of this place makes you my number two enemy! My number one must be the evil genius Kranar.

Kranar, your dumb henchman cannot wilt my positivity!

Post a good idea so I can confirm or deny said grief.

[Back]

Post a good idea so I can confirm or deny said grief.

Touche, good sir (ham). Touche.

[crb]

Would you ever let a receptionist operate on you?

Sure, if they were a doctor.

My wife, the doctor, worked as a medical receptionist for a number of years, she was doing it when we met. This helped her immensely. I don't know why people are being so dense, purposefully argumentative or contrarian, but don't be stupid. You don't think she had an advantage over others because she had years of experience using EMRs and related software, had dealt with patients on a day to day basis, had worked on schedules, had been exposed day in and day out patient complaints and treatments? Don't be stupid. Then, of course, now, as a doctor, guess what? She has better rapport with her receptionists because she used to do their job. When it comes time to start her own practice, if she does, she'll be able to train employees better because she will have done their job. You don't think it is an advantage to learn the front office of a business when you're aiming to work in the back office? That is just common sense. (it also explicitly helped her getting into med school).

Corporations do that sort of cross training all the time. They'll send an engineer on a sales call, why? Perspective, experience, these things matter. It is good business. Executives, good ones, will go out of the way to understand every aspect of their business, including the parts they pay minimum wage for.

So ya, if you were studying architecture, answering the phones at an architecture office might not pay much, but you will learn. Same with any other field. Looking down on such jobs because they're beneath you because you have some grand idea about your future worth is foolhardy.

[Latrinsorm]

Sure, if they were a doctor.So in the context we were discussing, which was a receptionist with no post-graduate medical training, the answer is no (else you would not have qualified the statement). Good, that's settled.
My wife, the doctor, worked as a medical receptionist for a number of years, she was doing it when we met. This helped her immensely. I don't know why people are being so dense, purposefully argumentative or contrarian, but don't be stupid. You don't think she had an advantage over others because she had years of experience using EMRs and related software, had dealt with patients on a day to day basis, had worked on schedules, had been exposed day in and day out patient complaints and treatments? Don't be stupid. Then, of course, now, as a doctor, guess what? She has better rapport with her receptionists because she used to do their job. When it comes time to start her own practice, if she does, she'll be able to train employees better because she will have done their job. You don't think it is an advantage to learn the front office of a business when you're aiming to work in the back office? That is just common sense. (it also explicitly helped her getting into med school).It would be useful for a doctor to have skill as a receptionist if they couldn't hire someone else to do it. It would also be useful for a doctor to have skill as a mechanic if they couldn't hire one to fix their car. Specialization is how modern society works, and it works very, very well. A point guard and a shooting guard beats two combo guards.

I also want to expound specifically on the bolded remark above, because I think it goes to a general problem you have: you make leaps from "this could reasonably have caused that" to "this caused that", which is fine, but you don't seem to realize you're doing it and as a result can't understand disagreements to it. It's "common sense", or it's "basic science", or people are only pretending to disagree because... we're bored? Perhaps your wife has better rapport (than whom?) because she's just more charismatic, or because she is more relatable as a woman, or because of any other reason that doesn't happen to back up your beliefs. Just food for thought.

[Rallorick]

That's fine, but you aren't looking at the situation like an economist. If your money in per hour is going to go up soon, and you can borrow money now to pay back later, you very quickly hit a corner solution of deferring work. I didn't say working will kill you, but I did say and it is true that working for less money is not efficient.

Sorry, I would have quoted this earlier, but... you know, job...

However, this is not 'looking at the situation like an economist'... it's just plain wrong. You are valuing your current free time against an imaginary number you may feel you are worth (not now, but in the future). In reality, you should be pushing your cost of debt against your current valuation of free time as a real alternative. What you're doing is justifying the fact that you don't want to waste your time with a job using a variable that fits the solution.

Unless you're saying that all your free time is being spent toward your future valuation, which I would find hard to believe... because you are on these boards quite a bit.

otherwise you're stating that under utilization is more efficient than non-utilization... then you're just stupid.

[Bobmuhthol]

I started to write a response, but it was just going to be more economic theory and assumptions about the value of leisure and social time. Not worth it. Just know that I read your post and I'm still right.

[Rallorick]

good thing... I have so much trouble keeping up with your advanced economic theories.


You sure are smart, Bob.

[Bobmuhthol]

You know that a lot of my time is spent solving these exact kinds of problems, right?

[Latrinsorm]

In a school, with math. As if anything in the real world was ever solved that way!!!

[Rallorick]

You know that a lot of my time is spent solving these exact kinds of problems, right?

obviously not enough.... you solve them wrong.

I'm not disrespecting your time spent in higher education - I spent six years doing it myself, also in economics. So where it's super cute that you want to prove your right because you spend all your time solving really complicated problems that I couldn't possibly comprehend... well, I sort of can.

but you and I both know you're comment was complete bullshit. I pointed it out, and rather than say 'yeah, sorta', you decided to take the route of 'yeah, my thought process was just way too advanced for you, and where I could point it out, I'll make a cute comment instead.' Again, super cute. I remember being an arrogant student, too. Fun times.

[Bobmuhthol]

The problem is that I really am right, so we don't both know anything.

[Rallorick]

well, then obviously that's why one of us is still a student.

[Bobmuhthol]

Practitioners don't exactly consider these issues. Academics do.

[Rallorick]

HA... Yeah. yeah...

[Bobmuhthol]

Please direct me to a company specializing in deciding whether it makes sense for a grad student to take a minimum wage job for a year.

[Rallorick]

damn near every mid to large company practices efficiency models for business, and explores alternative cost of operations and a wide variety of analysis on incremental and baseline business structure.

you will be hard pressed to find a single one that says 'fuck it, our models say we're going to make more next year, so it doesn't make sense to operate during this one... let's go home.'

[Bobmuhthol]

Companies don't operate like people despite being people. Really, really ridiculous example.

[Rallorick]

Companies don't operate like people despite being people.

you"re fired.

[iJin]

Amazon pays for 2 years worth of tuition. Huzzah.

[DoctorUnne]

obviously not enough.... you solve them wrong.

I'm not disrespecting your time spent in higher education - I spent six years doing it myself, also in economics. So where it's super cute that you want to prove your right because you spend all your time solving really complicated problems that I couldn't possibly comprehend... well, I sort of can.

but you and I both know you're comment was complete bullshit. I pointed it out, and rather than say 'yeah, sorta', you decided to take the route of 'yeah, my thought process was just way too advanced for you, and where I could point it out, I'll make a cute comment instead.' Again, super cute. I remember being an arrogant student, too. Fun times.

Shit just got real

[Atlanteax]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/27/student-loan-forgiveness-guide_n_4002065.html

I cannot just link the article I saw on WSJ as it's unlocked by subscription only...

But it was stating that the usage of the federal student loan forgiveness program is skyrocketing, where after 10 years (if public sector or non-profit) or 20 years (private sector), whatever remains of your student loan debt is forgiven.

Apparently it is getting so bad, that Obama is looking to *cap* the amount of debt forgiven at $57,950 (close to $60k). That is a lot of 'free' money. I found it amusing those who go into non-profit, which is probably dominated by liberals, end up paying a smaller mandated amount each month (because they make less) and get their debt forgiven sooner, which ultimately means a significant amount is not paid back at all.

Now colleges/etc, particularly Law Schools, are offering programs to help cover the 10-20 years period, until the debt is forgiven ... and now (*now* ???) there is concern at the federal level that this could lead to more colleges significantly increasing their tuition rates.

.

Just scrap the federal student loan program in its entirely and watch tuition costs drop like a rock across the board, and ironically enough, become *affordable*.

.

Edited to add:
http://inthetank.newamerica.net/blog/2014/03/case-obama%E2%80%99s-fixes-income-based-repayment

This outlines some of the proposed fixes to the rampant abuse.

[Wrathbringer]

Just scrap the federal student loan program in its entirely and watch tuition costs drop like a rock across the board, and ironically enough, become *affordable*.

This is correct.

[Latrinsorm]

That's a non-starter, the President already used up all his quotation marks for the "affordable" healthcare act.

[cwolff]

+1


Just scrap the federal student loan program in its entirely and watch tuition costs drop like a rock across the board, and ironically enough, become *affordable*.

That's actually an easy answer. I'd hope that we could do more grants to help out people who are not scholarship worthy but still qualified for university.

[Atlanteax]

That's actually an easy answer. I'd hope that we could do more grants to help out people who are not scholarship worthy but still qualified for university.

There is grants, and also working during college.

It does *not* have to be 4 years of just classes (and partying).

[Warriorbird]

I love these great spontaneous cost dropping theories.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Only in America is there a debt forgiveness program, sponsored by the government.

[cwolff]

There is grants, and also working during college.

It does *not* have to be 4 years of just classes (and partying).

Did someone say that it did?



I love these great spontaneous cost dropping theories.

Good point. If student loans raised the price of college, there's no guarantee that less student loans drop the cost. In fact...once a price goes up it's pretty hard to bring it back down.

[Atlanteax]

I love these great spontaneous cost dropping theories.

It is called "Supply & Demand"

[Wrathbringer]

It is called "Supply & Demand"

Liberals have 0 understanding of economics. That's why they're liberals.

[Warriorbird]

It is called "Supply & Demand"

And that is called oversimplification to serve your actual goal which you describe as punishment.

[Warriorbird]

Liberals have 0 understanding of economics. That's why they're liberals.

What generalizations could I make about criminals? Far right sovereign citizen types?

[cwolff]

Liberals have 0 understanding of economics. That's why they're liberals.

If that's true then it's better to be lucky than smart. Bush - Recession, Clinton - Surplus, Bush - Recession, Obama - U.S. out of recession, maybe we'll even get to have another surplus.

[Laviticas]

If that's true then it's better to be lucky than smart. Bush - Recession, Clinton - Surplus, Bush - Recession, Obama - U.S. out of recession, maybe we'll even get to have another surplus.

Only a liberal thinks policy has instantaneous effects. I also notice you somehow forgot Carter and Reagan.

[cwolff]

Only a liberal thinks policy has instantaneous effects. I also notice you somehow forgot Carter and Reagan.

Ok we can look at them too. That will make the score 2wins 1 loss for the Dems and 1 win 2 losses GOP.

[Warriorbird]

Only a liberal thinks policy has instantaneous effects. I also notice you somehow forgot Carter and Reagan.

Oh we could play that. What two disastrous economic events did "Republican economic growth" (AKA, bubbles produced by careless deregulation) lead to again?

[Laviticas]

Oh we could play that. What two disastrous economic events did "Republican economic growth" (AKA, bubbles produced by careless deregulation) lead to again?

I was thinking that was democrat policy that allowed for these banks to loan 9:1 without any verification ? ::shrug::

[Warriorbird]

I was thinking that was democrat policy that allowed for these banks to loan 9:1 without any verification ? ::shrug::

Weren't you the one who said "Ketchup is a vegetable" was on Carter rather than Reagan too? Who exactly is the party of deregulation is glorious again?

[Laviticas]

Pretty sure carter with the catsup packets, let me google that, think I was in the 2nd grade at the time, so it would have been carter if I'm correct on the time frame.

To be honest I don't give a fuck, the Feds can't get shit right anyhow no matter who resides in the Oval Office. If I'm wrong always happy to admit it.

[cwolff]

Didn't you just get hammered for the ketchup as a vegetable last night?

[Laviticas]

Wow I stand corrected. It was Reagan

[Laviticas]

Didn't you just get hammered for the ketchup as a vegetable last night?

Not sure, I think I was off PC by that time. But from what I'm reading here, both parties lay blame on each other for the great ketchup fiasco. Hmmm, nice catch guys.

[cwolff]

Not sure, I think I was off PC by that time. But from what I'm reading here, both parties lay blame on each other for the great ketchup fiasco. Hmmm, nice catch guys.

4/21 7:09 PM Thread: I too would like your opinion


Jimmy Carter wanted a ketchup packet to count as a fruit & vegi serving for the school lunch program, so take it for what you will.


I always thought "ketchup is a vegetable" was Ronald Reagan. I wonder if it's an urban legend.

Ah. Clarification.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2517/did-the-reagan-era-usda-really-classify-ketchup-as-a-vegetable

Dude, you're smoking too much weed for a Republican.

[Warriorbird]

Not sure, I think I was off PC by that time. But from what I'm reading here, both parties lay blame on each other for the great ketchup fiasco. Hmmm, nice catch guys.

Not so much. Reagan retracted the proposal though, so it likely stretched on in people's minds more than it mattered.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2517/did-the-reagan-era-usda-really-classify-ketchup-as-a-vegetable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup_as_a_vegetable

[cwolff]

I remember this. It all fell on Reagan. It was a WTF moment before WTF existed. Made for some good news coverage for a few days and a lifetime of jokes.

[Laviticas]

I remember this. It all fell on Reagan. It was a WTF moment before WTF existed. Made for some good news coverage for a few days and a lifetime of jokes.

I just remember standing in the lunch line and yea it was a WTF moment.

And yea the weed thing is kind of what makes me not a republican. Another forum they call me a liberal, so there's that.

[Warriorbird]

I just remember standing in the lunch line and yea it was a WTF moment.

And yea the weed thing is kind of what makes me not a republican. Another forum they call me a liberal, so there's that.

It's a real division between establishment Republican and Tea Party. Good litmus test for them, I'd imagine.

[Laviticas]

It's a real division between establishment Republican and Tea Party. Good litmus test for them, I'd imagine.

Oh yea, really I'm more libertarian leaning than anything. I'll give you a quick run down on my stance of the current hot topics.

1. Gay Marriage, really don't care, if you can find a church to perform the marriage, all the more power to you.

2. Abortion = murder, nothing will change my stance on this issue.

3. End war on drugs.

4. Shrink military spending before shrinking our safety net.

5. Close the IRS.

6. End the fed.

I think that's a good enough list for you all to label me.

[cwolff]

Whoo, That sounds like a Libertarian to me for the most part. I can't imagine who'd call you a liberal. That must be quite a conservative forum.

[Thondalar]

Whoo, That sounds like a Libertarian to me for the most part. I can't imagine who'd call you a liberal. That must be quite a conservative forum.

As I've brought up many times before, it's all about which particular topic is being discussed at the moment. If all you heard was my stance on most social issues, you'd label me a liberal...and on those topics, I am very much a liberal. In other things I lean very conservative...I honestly think it would be very hard these days to find a majority of people on either side of the aisle that follow their party line 100% of the time.

I say we get rid of these confusing and incorrect labels of liberal and conservative, and just discuss the issues. After all, why do any of us need labels, except for the other side to make snide remarks that have nothing to do with the issues?

[Laviticas]

Whoo, That sounds like a Libertarian to me for the most part. I can't imagine who'd call you a liberal. That must be quite a conservative forum.

Believe it or not it's your establishment republicans that whip out the liberal label first, only because they are so fucked right now, they don't have a leg to stand on. They can't get it through their skulls that no matter how much you try to change your platform to gather more democrats, you're still a republican in a democrats mind and still lose.