Responsible parenting and baby-making.

[SpunGirl]

I get so mad hearing about this stuff.

1. I don't feel that women who choose to have children out of the context of any kind of comitted relationship, against the wishes of the father, should be allowed to bang down the father's door for child support.

2. I get disgusted when I see things about women who are "going it alone" with their children and all the sympathy they get, oh, you poor thing, life is so rough. Well, it's rougher on the kids.

3. Do not, do not, do not make babies if you cannot take care of them. Simple. You don't have to give them every extravagant baby toy in the book, but if you're a teenage mom and thinking that it's a swell idea to have a baby and that you'll get lots of attention, you're wrong. I don't think every baby should be planned, because I know a large number are "surprises." But if you don't want the kid and can't deal with abortion, give it to a couple who is DYING for kids and would love to take yours and give it everything it needs. Give it to some nice gay men who can't have babies. Give it to some nice gay women who can't find sperm. Give it to a woman who has no ovaries.

Babies are not a crutch, an attention-grabber, or an accessory.

-K

[StrayRogue]

Shame the majority of women don't think like you, Kristin.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
I get so mad hearing about this stuff.

1. I don't feel that women who choose to have children out of the context of any kind of comitted relationship, against the wishes of the father, should be allowed to bang down the father's door for child support.

Unless you are going to enforce abortions/adoptions outside of marriage, it is difficult to ensure that all births are within "committed" relationships.

If men dont want to play a part in the conceptions, take precautions or keep your trousers on.

If they dont, then they are as responsible for making that child.

I would agree with the argument that denying contact between fathers and their children whilst demanding child support is wrong. I dont believe that because the mother and father arent in a relationship that the father has zero responsibility towards that child.



3. Do not, do not, do not make babies if you cannot take care of them.

Agreed...for both sexes.
Nuff said.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Shame the majority of women don't think like you, Kristin.

I think most women do think the same way, Stray. Now, female children...that's a different issue.

HarmNone

[Jazuela]

Sometimes there are good reasons why a woman would refuse access of a child to the father, while still expecting child support.

Sometimes there are good reasons why the courts would do the same.

"I love my son, therefore I have the right to be with him" isn't enough.

I have a friend with a 10-year-old son. She was in a committed relationship when the baby was conceived, and she broke it off when it became clear to her that her fiance wasn't ready to grow up and become an adult. While she was planning for her baby, securing his future working two jobs and attending graduate school, he was out snorting coke, drinking, and scamming his ex-wife.

After the baby was born, the court ordered him to pay a very modest child support, based on his reported income - which he cheated to provide. He hid a LOT of his revenue and pleaded poverty, when in fact he was very able to support his cocaine habit.

The baby was born with asthma, which they hope will fade as he gets older. The father smokes, and refuses to -not- smoke when he takes his son for weekend visits. The father refuses to -not- talk like a truckdriver in front of his sone, and the father continues to give his son toys and gifts as bribes, while the entire time not giving my friend a single cent toward their son's education, medical expenses, food, clothing, and other needs.

Why the hell would anyone feel this guy "deserves" to have contact with his son? He doesn't even deserve to be walking free on the streets. He's a lowly thug, a criminal, from a family of criminals. Is that the kind of environment the 10-year-old boy "dserves" to be exposed to?

Screw that. There are no absolutes when it comes to raising children, and no absolute "rights" of parents. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive, and shouldn't be allowed to spawn.

I -still- believe firmly that people should require licensing to raise children, of their own or someone else's. You have to go through a huge battery of tests to prove that you can be responsible when you want to adopt a child. You have to be licensed to run a day-care center. But all you need to raise your own kids is an egg and some sperm? That's just ridiculous.

Testing, licensing, and mandatory parenting classes for ALL people wishing to have children. That's the only route I can see that makes any sense at all.

[Weedmage Princess]

I have mixed feelings on number two of your list, Spun. What about a woman who has a good job, a wonderful and nurturing relationship with her family and could provide an excellent life for a child who wants nothing more than to be a mom...yet has had the misfortune of meeting shitty guys and wants to have her child before she gets what she feels may be too old?

She's not looking for child support, she's not looking to use this baby as an accessory, she just wants to have a child of her own because being a mommy is something she's always dreamed of being since she could remember? Should she be denied having a child because she's having a hard time finding Mister Right?

I'll agree, yes of course a household where both parents are present [and are responsible] is ideal and best..but sometimes things don't work out that way.

[Edited on 8-12-2004 by Weedmage Princess]

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I don't think anyone should have kids unless I approve.

But since that won't ever happen... I guess I just have to accept the fact there are shitty people in the world, on both sides of the "lets make a baby" fence.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Jazuela
Sometimes there are good reasons why a woman would refuse access of a child to the father, while still expecting child support.


I should have said unreasonably refusing contact.

[killjoymp]

I agree with Spun, there are too many babies having babies. Walk through any high school in the US and I bet that you will find a female there with a child or about to have a child. IT is sad in this day and age that kids are finding out about sex from their friends at school then from the parents. And most of the kids think about the same way that it would be "swell" or "if I do have a baby then my parents will help me take care of it.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
If they dont, then they are as responsible for making that child.Way to get pwned by Kidrock.

Woman: I'm on the pill.
Guy: Ok.
Woman: HAHAHA JK NOW I'M PREGGERS.
Guy: ....

[Miss X]

My dad was an asshole so my mother raised my sister and I alone, we hardly had contact with him at all. She worked, got a degree etc while we were young, she also got child support from him. Why the fuck shouldnt she? He was earning money, stupid enough to have an affair, just because my mother wanted to raise us alone doesn't mean she didn't deserve some money from him to help. Regardless of the situation, it takes two to make a baby and it should be 50/50 money wise all the way. I don't care if the woman lied about the pill or anything like that. We all know that ANY TIME you have sex there is a chance of pregnancy (excluding infertility of course), doesn't matter if you're on the pill, injection, using condoms, there is still a chance. If someone cannot face that responsibility they shouldn't be having sex.

[DeV]

Utilize contraceptives. If the woman says she's on the pill and the guy takes her word at face value, he's still responsible if a life is created.

If paying child support is such a huge inconvenience a man could always sue the woman for shared custody of their child. That should offset most of the frustration of having money deducted from their pay check.

[xtc]

Quote

"If the woman says she's on the pill and the guy takes her word at face value, he's still responsible if a life is created"

I think in this instance the guy should not be responsible for child support. How irresponsible to claim to be on the pill if you are not. It is unfair the man and unfair to the child.

I am starting to think I agree with the licensing thing. It astounds me the people who have children. Note if you life is a mess having a child won't help

[DeV]

Originally posted by xtc
Quote

"If the woman says she's on the pill and the guy takes her word at face value, he's still responsible if a life is created"

I think in this instance the guy should not be responsible for child support. How irresponsible to claim to be on the pill if you are not. It is unfair the man and unfair to the child.
It's called being a responsible adult. Yes, she is a dumb bitch, then again so is he for not using a CONDOM. Who it's really unfair for, the child. Her responsibility as well as his. Sorry, but I don't want my tax dollars going to support the child (if she chooses to get on welfare) of a man who feels he shouldn't have to support because the mean woman over there lied to him about being on birth control. Give me a break.

[Chyrain]

Originally posted by xtc
Quote

"If the woman says she's on the pill and the guy takes her word at face value, he's still responsible if a life is created"

I think in this instance the guy should not be responsible for child support. How irresponsible to claim to be on the pill if you are not. It is unfair the man and unfair to the child.


well, not to be a party pooper for the guys but...being on the pill doesn't guaruntee not getting pregnant. Just like condoms aren't 100% effective, neither is the pill. It greatly reduces the risk, but doesn't eliminate it.

And you can't stick the woman with a lifetime of providing for the kid alone if she tells you she's on the pills and winds up pregnant. A multitude of reasons could be to why. Maybe she genuinely forgot to take one some day. Maybe she took it as close to the same time every day that she could, but didn't always make it. I told my now hubby that if he didn't want me to get pregnant, he oughta make damn sure I take that pill every day because I'm not good with taking pills. I get busy and forget.

Besides - my opinion is that if you're having sex with someone you're not commited to or know much about, you should be using a condom anyway to prevent disease.

[xtc]

Condoms are an excellent idea especially with AIDS. If the women is on the pill and gets pregnant then of course the man should step up to the plate. Some women are less than honest when they say they are on the pill.

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
I have mixed feelings on number two of your list, Spun. What about a woman who has a good job, a wonderful and nurturing relationship with her family and could provide an excellent life for a child who wants nothing more than to be a mom...


Yeah, I agree with you here, I don't see any reason a woman like that shouldn't be a mother. What I meant and I guess didn't clarify well enough was women who choose to have kids when they get pregnant, even though they know it will be a hardship (a major one, like, putting them on public assistance type hardship). Yet they eagerly and even gleefully accept all the attention they get from onlookers talking about how hard it is, and what a struggle it is, blah blah.

Regarding the whole child support thing, I'm not sure why Jazuela's friend is even accepting money from this scum. Is the pathetic amount of cash he doles out really enough to keep exposing the kid to this wretch? I'd be willing to bet he'd sign away his parental rights in exchange for a release from financial obligations.

And I'm sorry, I know this is going to sound harsh, but why make a kid in the first place with someone you're not sure is going to grow up? Seems like a poor decision all around to me. And now the kid is the #1 person paying for it. Sad.

-K

[Jazuela]

The boy isn't "paying" for it. His mom is the most awesome mom I've ever met. You asked why she'd be with a guy if she wasn't sure he'd ever grow up...

I never said that she wasn't sure if he'd ever grow up. He's a scam artist afterall..he's damned good at hiding the truth from people. She didn't even know he had a serious expensive coke habit until she was already pregnant...because he'd do it while he claimed he was working, and wait until it wore off to come home.

He convinced her that his ex-wife was a villain who tried to extort more and more money from him - and it turned out HE was the one extorting money by hiding his income and pleading poverty so the court would lower his child support payment for the child he had with his FIRST wife.

Of course the ex-wife played right into his hands by becoming defensive and angry - which he used to prove to my friend how unreasonable the ex was...yada yada yada..

In the meantime, he DOES love his son. And the courts DID allow him a loose visitation agreement, which had to be to the mutual agreement between him and my friend. So she lets him have the boy on weekends, which he -usually- does.

He also has a host of support from his grandmother, me, my friend's new boyfriend, the neighbors, me (though I live 2 towns away and don't get to see him often) and they live in an "open door" area where any kid whose mom hasn't come home from work yet, can walk into ANYONE else's house and know they are safe and cared for until mom gets home.

He has it a whole lot better than a lot of kids I know, actually. He lives on the beach in a gorgeous home that my friend custom-designed from scratch (she's an artist, teacher, and is working on her Doctorate in Education). His family values education and the Arts, he travels with his mom to Greece every summer, he is 100% bilingual in Greek and English, his grandfather is a professor of literature in France who comes and blesses us all with his exciting conversations every year or two, his grandmother is a Greek poet who lives on the island of Aegina and has a few properties around the mainland and other islands.

This isn't some dumb blonde bimbo who got herself knocked up because she thought babies are so cute she just HAD to.

She's an extraordinary woman who I am very proud to call a friend. She wasn't naive. She was conned, and if you ever read the newspapers you'll see that even intelligent people can be conned, and it doesn't make the victims stupid or ignorant. It makes them - human.

[StrayRogue]

Yes you're right Harmnone. Babies seem to be the "thing" to have. Like you leave school at 16, get a boyfriend and have a kid. I mean for gods sake, I'm 22 and still a child.

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by Jazuela

In the meantime, he DOES love his son.



I call bullshit. He loves his son and refuses to quit smoking in his presence when he has asthma? "Yes, son, I love you very much, let me show you this while I blow cigarette smoke in your face."

If she can afford property on the beach, trips to Greece and all that jazz, why is she after this con artist for his cash? You think that because he has a lot of stuff and is well educated, the fact that his mother was essentially conned by his father won't come back to haunt him and cause him problems in the future? You think seeing his father as part of a court-ordered agreement isn't something that will bother him, now or in the future? You think that the awareness that his mother has to go after his father to help support him financially isn't damaging?

Kids understand a lot more than most people give them credit for.

-K

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
If the woman says she's on the pill and the guy takes her word at face value, he's still responsible if a life is created.If it was up to me, that would be completely true: the man would take custody of the child, period. The woman could go pound salt.

Of course, if it was up to me, there would be a lot less people having sex altogether. Which is probably, in turn, why it isn't up to me.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
If the woman says she's on the pill and the guy takes her word at face value, he's still responsible if a life is created.If it was up to me, that would be completely true: the man would take custody of the child, period. The woman could go pound salt.
Thats more like it. Men sell themselves short far too often. If a woman wants to play a game of chance when it comes to creating life, the guy should show her ass up. Fight for custody, if not, be stuck paying child support until the kid is 18 even older in some instances.

[Betheny]

You know, there's a definite difference in mentality, region-wise, when it comes to single parenting.

In Minnesota, single fathers are pretty much unheard of. When I moved out here, and started working where I work now, I soon came to realize that it isn't so uncommon for fathers to have sole custody. Three of the guys I work with are single fathers.

It's really a culture shock. But I have to say, I don't think that it matters gender-wise, who the parent is -- because once you're a single parent, you change. Hell once you're a parent you ought to change.

Oh, by the way -- I don't think that single parents -- or any parent -- should get fiscal advantages, at all. I'm really sick of having to struggle my way through life just because I refused to squirt out some kids -- and these teenage mothers get free school? I can see helping some of them out, but our society has really crossed the line from helping out the disadvantaged to encouraging people to do this sort of behavior.

If you get what I mean.

[Geoff]

Originally posted by SpunGirl

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
I have mixed feelings on number two of your list, Spun. What about a woman who has a good job, a wonderful and nurturing relationship with her family and could provide an excellent life for a child who wants nothing more than to be a mom...


Yeah, I agree with you here, I don't see any reason a woman like that shouldn't be a mother. What I meant... (etc.)
-K

I disagree roughly 50% of the time.

The vast majority of the time a single mother isn't going to be able to properly raise a son to be a man. Boys need a male influence and I'm not talking about fishing with grandpa on the occassional weekend, I'm talking lots of direct contact on a daily basis if possible. How many of you ladies who are going to argue with me on this think a single father can raise a daughter without that being an issue?

<--Has a 5 year old son with freinds that pee sitting down cause mom says it "more hygenic".

[Betheny]

I imagine it's tough for a woman to teach a boy how to be a man... without being ... ... ... Wow that was an extremely disturbing thought, let's not go down that road, ok?

[Jazuela]

Originally posted by SpunGirl

Originally posted by Jazuela

In the meantime, he DOES love his son.



I call bullshit. He loves his son and refuses to quit smoking in his presence when he has asthma? "Yes, son, I love you very much, let me show you this while I blow cigarette smoke in your face."


I call you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Yes, Virginia, even assholes are capable of love for their children. That he is a lousy father and an idiot doesn't mean he doesn't love his kid. It just means he doesn't know HOW to love him appropriately.




If she can afford property on the beach, trips to Greece and all that jazz, why is she after this con artist for his cash?

She isn't. The courts are after the con artist for his cash. As for her "affording" the property and trips - she got the house for a steal, when the market dropped, and renovated it herself without the help of contractors, and got friends to chip in with construction materials. She can afford to go to greece because HER MOTHER OWNS PROPERTY THERE AND LIVES THERE. She doesn't have to pay for hotels. Hello? She doesn't just go on vacation there. She goes to visit her family. All she has to pay for is the airfare.

She can afford THAT because she is a tenured teacher with a Master's Degree and works part time on weekends as a bartender, making over $500 just on the weekends. The courts gave the ex unsupervised visitation rights. She is not legally alllowed to deny him those rights, so she lets him have the boy on weekends, which allows her to have that extra job that affords her and the boy the "luxury" of seeing his grandmother once a year for a month.



You think that because he has a lot of stuff and is well educated, the fact that his mother was essentially conned by his father won't come back to haunt him and cause him problems in the future? You think seeing his father as part of a court-ordered agreement isn't something that will bother him, now or in the future? You think that the awareness that his mother has to go after his father to help support him financially isn't damaging?

He is just as well-educated as anyone else in the public school he goes to. He also has the added bonus of being born to a family of highly cultured people, who encourage him to expand his mind and nurture his curiosity. He doesn't need financial support of his father. The court ORDERED financial support of his father, and the father has been a deadbeat dad from the moment his son was born. He doesn't pay child support - but he gives his son toys. He has this notion in his head that if he hands money over to my friend, that she'll spend it on stuff like his ex-wife did. Obviously he doesn't know my friend as well as he thought he did.



Kids understand a lot more than most people give them credit for.

-K

Yes, the boy is very smart, and very aware. And that is precisely why my friend refuses to discuss problems between herself and her ex in front of her son, or to anyone who might mention it to him. He does ask questions - and she answers them as honestly as possible, as appropriate for his age as possible. He's 10 - not old enough to understand the nuances of relationships but old enough to know when something is wrong - when something doesn't "fit" or is not normal.

[Blazing247]

The worst thing of all is when the mother uses the child to divide a family. My brother and his ex-wife got divorced going on four years ago. It wasn't a horrible breakup, and they shared him freely back and forth. My parents and grandparents poured a lot of money into the kid, and took care of him at least one or two days a week while the mother worked. My brother and his ex had a fight one night, and he hasn't seen his kid since. The saddest part of all is that, incidentally, the bitch won't let my mother or my grandmother see him either.

My brother has no claim on the kid in court, because he is currently in a rehabilitation program. She has promised to let him see his son again many times if he has cleaned up, and after spending a year clean and sober she reniged on her promise. He lapsed, but soon was back in rehab and stayed sober for well over a year. Again, after claiming he could see the kid if he got clean, she turned around and said no. The disappointment was so strong that my brother relapsed into drugs and hasn't been able to find the will to get back out again.

My brother isn't the best person, but has never done anything to put his child in danger. This cunt of a woman, however, uses their child as a means of revenge and as a tool to pull apart my family. If it weren't for my nephew, I hope she'd die.

[Betheny]

Well, is she doing it because she doesn't want her kid to see his father in a bad state -- like he probably was before rehab? Yeah, he's getting rehab now, but if I were in her position, I would be pretty afraid of someone with a substance abuse (or whatever) problem coming into contact with my child.

If she follows through with her promise to let him see the kid after he cleans up and gets his life back together, maybe it's not such a bad thing?

Not that I advocate such behavior, at all. Because, I don't.

[Souzy]

ROFL @ Latrin's "preggers" skit! Idiots shouldn't have children, too bad there are more idiots out there. haha!!! My friends and I went through baby momma drama a couple days ago. I hate when the girls start using the kids against the father for selfish reasons. Now that's stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jazuela]

Blazing, that is exactly why my friend lets her ex see his son. The last thing she wants is for her boy to grow up resenting her for not allowing him to see his daddy, who he loves dearly and accepts with all his faults. He KNOWS dad isn't exactly a model of of a dad - but he loves him anyway and would be totally crushed if he wasn't allowed to visit him a couple of days a week.

It's also why my friend won't trash her ex to her kid - because all that does is cause resentment and twists the boy's mind. She'll discuss specific behaviors with him that she feels is inappropriate..but she refuses to tell her son that his dad is a "bad man." He is DAD, and sometimes dad does bad things. But the boy has every right in the world to grow up loving his dad, and his dad has every right in the world to watch his child grow up into a REAL man. And hell - maybe it'll teach him a few things about what it's like to BE a real man, if he watches his son become one - in spite of his father's behavior.

Oh and this boy - lemme tell ya. I don't like children. I never wanted any, not even when I was a little girl I hated playing "House" with my friends. I got my tubes tied to make sure I'd never have to deal with it. But this child..is amazing. He can turn from "all boy" terror of the beach, running roughshod over the waves and being king of his sand castle, to being this adorable, precocious, smart-as-a-fucking whip miniature man who has deep thoughts about life and has this amazing view of the world. He also helps his mom pick up around the house, though his own bedroom is a typical 10-year-old boy's mess. If I ever was gonna have a kid, I'd want him. I was blessed to be present for his birth, and I was the first person besides his grandmother to see him after he was cleaned off.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Maimara
but if I were in her position, I would be pretty afraid of someone with a substance abuse (or whatever) problem coming into contact with my child.I would assume a good rule of thumb for who not to have sex with would be who one doesn't want to have near one's kid.

[Souzy]

Oh I didn't see Blazings post. My bro is going through something like that. But, he's become the biggest loser, so you know what? Now I don't feel as bad. It ended up being him living with me and my ex, us taking care of his baby and him just staying a bum. His girl uses the baby against him, but him being a loser isn't making matters any better. Sad thing is, that my family love Carleena to death! We miss her so much, cos we basically raised her, and his cunt of a ex-wife tore her away from the whole family. First it was him, then the drama spread throughout my family and now she will not allow any of us to see my neice. I hate whores.

[Betheny]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Maimara
but if I were in her position, I would be pretty afraid of someone with a substance abuse (or whatever) problem coming into contact with my child.I would assume a good rule of thumb for who not to have sex with would be who one doesn't want to have near one's kid.

People change, don't they?

Haven't you ever known someone to go through something bad and end up with a problem?

Cause, I sure have, and if someone changes for the worse, I'm not going to let them use who they used to be as a weapon against me. If he's got a problem that's going to negatively affect my kid, you can bet I'll protect my kid.

[SpunGirl]

So she'd rather let her son see his father and risk further irritating his asthma than alleviate the risk to his health? Yeah, that makes sense. The father smokes around his son even though he knows it could cause him further health problems? Yeah, he loves his son and shows it the same way the guy who beats his wife loves her and "just doesn't know how to show it."

Just because she refuses to discuss the issues concerning child support doesn't mean he isn't aware of them. And I'm sorry, I've never heard of a court who just up and went after some dude for child support when there was no request from the mother. If they're after him because he went after HER for visitation, that's another matter. In that case, the responsbile thing would be to say, "I don't want your fucking money, and you can see your child when you learn to put his health needs before your nicotine addiction." Dur.

-K

[PassinBy]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

If paying child support is such a huge inconvenience a man could always sue the woman for shared custody of their child. That should offset most of the frustration of having money deducted from their pay check.

Bloody fuck shared custody, the man should sue for full custody and have her pay him child support.

[Blazing247]

Jazuela, that is a nice compromise your friend has worked out. I'm not defending my brother, as he has his share of problems. The thing is, she met him knowing he was a user, married him knowing he was a user, and had a baby with him knowing he was a user. The divorce was amicable, and she decided ONLY after a fight that she would use the baby against him.

While it may seem like a good idea to make the man you love clean up by using a baby as bait, it's woefully wrong to make him a promise, have him live up to his end of the bargain, and take away the only reason he has had in 15 years to get clean. And then do the same thing again not a year later. Further, there was no reason she had to take the kid away from me, my parents, my grandparents, and everyone else who loved him. The kid is going to grow up without an entire side of his family who love and care for him. She is a horrible person- worse, in my opinion, than my brother.

[HouseofElves]

K, I totally agree with your opening post.

Besides, kids suck anyways and nine times out of ten it is because their parents are immature morons who do not handle things the way they should.

http://maddox.xmission.com/beat.html

h8 stupid kids and their loser parents

[Caramia]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
I have mixed feelings on number two of your list, Spun. What about a woman who has a good job, a wonderful and nurturing relationship with her family and could provide an excellent life for a child who wants nothing more than to be a mom...yet has had the misfortune of meeting shitty guys and wants to have her child before she gets what she feels may be too old?

She's not looking for child support, she's not looking to use this baby as an accessory, she just wants to have a child of her own because being a mommy is something she's always dreamed of being since she could remember? Should she be denied having a child because she's having a hard time finding Mister Right?

You don't chose then to get pregnant by some shitty guy who can turn around and sue your ass for custody. You go to a sperm bank and get inseminated. And if you can't afford that, chances are, you can't afford to have and raise a kid, too.

[Caramia]

Originally posted by Maimara
but if I were in her position, I would be pretty afraid of someone with a substance abuse (or whatever) problem coming into contact with my child.


Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I would assume a good rule of thumb for who not to have sex with would be who one doesn't want to have near one's kid.

I would also assume that the smart and mature thing to do, before you get pregnant, is to make sure the relationship you're in is stable and going to be around for a while. Deciding to have a kid on a whim or with someone you've known less than a year or two (without some kind of committed and tested relationship) is pretty poor planning.

[Weedmage Princess]

Maybe, maybe not.

What if she settles down with the dude, thinking he's a good person, gets married, then comes to find out he's scum? A shitbag isn't going to advertise himself as a shitbag 9 times out of 10.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Why are all the examples of men being the asses? I've known plenty of women that should have their ability to have children taken away due to poor decision making skills and lack of common sense.

[Weedmage Princess]

There's enough women bashing on these boards to deal with one thread talking about men being assholes (which is usually the case) SO DEAL!!!!!!!! :bleh: :::runs for her life:::

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Well... that's a pretty fair statement... ;p

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

on a related note...


http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0804/plight.html

[Weedmage Princess]

:::: STARE::::

[Artha]

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0804/plight.html

I scored 10/10. Ph34r.

[Bobmuhthol]

I'm pregnant.

[SpunGirl]

.....and Tayre is the father.

-K

[Betheny]

Responsible baby-making = masturbation.

[SpunGirl]

Safe dispensation of baby-batter is always a good thing.

-K

[Blazing247]

aka swallow.