New CMANs?

[Valyss]

I had a couple gripes about the new CMANs and wanted to hear peoples thoughts. For one, only the new CMANs migrate points instantly. In some of these cases (notably executioners stance), we won't be able to realistically migrate enough points in the 30d window to even try them before the grace period expires.

Also, some of the new CMANs don't seem balanced with one another:


Skill Name: Spell Cleaving
Mnemonic: scleave
Hostile: Yes
Stamina Cost: Base 15 (-5 Rank 1, -5 Rank 2, -3 Rank 3).
Other Requirements: An ensorcelled or anti-magical (veil iron/krodera/kroderine) weapon.
Available to: Warriors.
Prerequisites:
None
CMP Cost:
Rank 1: (Squares) 2
Rank 2: (Squares) 4
Rank 3: (Squares) 6
Rank 4: (Squares) 8
Rank 5: (Squares) 10
Description: Attempt to use the unnatural energy of your ensorcelled or anti-magical weapon to cleave away a spell from your target. It is easier to cleave a spell away from a heavily spelled up target than it is from a lightly spelled up one (base -25 penalty to success, reduced by +1 per magical spell/effect on the target). This is mentally taxing, requiring a recovery period of 60 seconds, minus 6 seconds per rank.


Skill Name: Spell Thieve
Mnemonic: thieve
Hostile: Yes
Stamina Cost: Base 15 (-5 Rank 1, -5 Rank 2, -3 Rank 3).
Other Requirements: An ensorcelled or anti-magical (veil iron/krodera/kroderine) weapon.
Available to: Rogues.
Prerequisites:
None
CMP Cost:
Rank 1: (Squares) 2
Rank 2: (Squares) 4
Rank 3: (Squares) 6
Rank 4: (Squares) 8
Rank 5: (Squares) 10
Description: Attempt to use the unnatural energy of your ensorcelled or anti-magical weapon to sever a spell away from your target. It is easier to sever a spell away from a heavily spelled up target than it is from a lightly spelled up one (base -25 penalty to success, reduced by +1 per magical spell/effect on the target). This is mentally taxing, requiring a recovery period of 60 seconds, minus 6 seconds per rank.

If the spell is a beneficial spell that may be cast upon others, a remnant of it can be stolen. A stolen spell will only last for 30 seconds (or less, if the spell had less than 30 seconds remaining already).

Cleaving and Thieving have the same training costs, same cooldown, and same stamina costs, but thieving grants a temporary benefit to the user where cleaving doesn't?



Skill Name: Whirling Dervish
Mnemonic: dervish
Hostile: No
Stamina Cost: 40
Other Requirements: 30 Ranks of Multi Opponent Combat.
Available to: Warriors, Rogues.
Prerequisites:
None
CMP Cost:
Rank 1: (Squares) 4
Rank 2: (Squares) 8
Rank 3: (Squares) 12
Description: This is a Martial Stance. You gain the ability to switch with relative ease between targets when making multiple melee attacks. When making a focused MSTRIKE or a two-weapon attack that slays your targeted creature foe, you have a chance to switch your remaining attacks to another foe in the room. This chance is 5% + 25% per rank.


Skill Name: Executioner's Stance
Mnemonic: executioner
Hostile: No
Stamina Cost: 40
Other Requirements: A two-handed weapon.
Available to: Warriors.
Prerequisites:
Staggering Blow (at rank 2)
CMP Cost:
Rank 1: (Squares) 4
Rank 2: (Squares) 8
Rank 3: (Squares) 12
Description: This is a Martial Stance. If you slay a creature with a two-handed weapon attack while in this stance, you have a chance to maintain your momentum and continue the attack onto another creature foe in the room. This chance is 5% + 15% per rank. The secondary attack will have an AS penalty of -25 and cannot occur more than once per attack.

If you fail to maintain your momentum into a second attack and you have 3 more ranks of Staggering Blow, you will still have a chance to knock the corpse of your slain foe into another foe in the room. If you are successful, that foe will suffer a RT penalty.

Executioner's has an extra 12 points you need to spend to access it (2+4 for mighty blow -> 2+4 for staggering blow), as well as a lower chance to activate and an AS penalty.

[Sorcasaurus]

I agree with you on the spell cleave/thieve, but the dervish/executioners have different activation mechanics.

To me it looks like dirvish will use any mstrikes or off hand strikes that go unused due to the creature dying on a secondary target, while executioner is adding an additional swing to a killing blow. The advantage seems to be that dirvish limits you to however many attacks your mstrike has, while executioner has the potential to double your swings - even on an open mstrike.

The key being:

"When making a focused MSTRIKE or a two-weapon attack that slays your targeted creature foe, you have a chance to switch your remaining attacks to another foe" vs
"If you slay a creature with a two-handed weapon attack while in this stance, you have a chance to maintain your momentum and continue the attack onto another creature foe in the room."

[Buckwheet]

The rogue one makes more sense to me only because they are the more magical square and usually have more magical skills to manipulate a spell.

[MrMortimur]

I was ok with the spell stealing simply because it is 30 seconds as a maximum duration. If you're using this CMan to help you kill like a grizzled caster or something than getting that boost should last long enough to see the thing dead.

As to Executioner's, since you'll be using attack/ambush every 5-6 seconds as opposed to waiting for MoC softcooldown to be up it will have more opportunities to trigger and double your total swings. Dervish would certainly be my go-to if I was a twc warrior with at least triple strike.

I hope warriors/rogues are granted cman migration on existing skills to try these out.

[Valyss]

it sounds like the prereq for executioner's in MBlow, not Sblow, which makes that a bit more palatable

[Donquix]

I agree with you on the spell cleave/thieve, but the dervish/executioners have different activation mechanics.

To me it looks like dirvish will use any mstrikes or off hand strikes that go unused due to the creature dying on a secondary target, while executioner is adding an additional swing to a killing blow. The advantage seems to be that dirvish limits you to however many attacks your mstrike has, while executioner has the potential to double your swings - even on an open mstrike.

The key being:
vs

I'm curious how they interact together.

So you focused mstrike w/ a twohander, creature dies on swing 1 dervish triggers onto creasure 2 your last mstrike swing kills it which triggers executioner that now swings onto creature 3 which triggers bonding extra swings and swings a second time?

....afk changing pants.

[MrMortimur]

@Donquix,
They are both martial stances and only 1 can be active at any given time.

[Jace Solo]

I'm curious how they interact together.

So you focused mstrike w/ a twohander, creature dies on swing 1 dervish triggers onto creasure 2 your last mstrike swing kills it which triggers executioner that now swings onto creature 3 which triggers bonding extra swings and swings a second time?

....afk changing pants.

Nice. Just...nice. That's a ton of CMAN though

[Jace Solo]

@Donquix,
They are both martial stances and only 1 can be active at any given time.

Redacted to the Navee (or however you spell that Avatar race)

[Donquix]

@Donquix,
They are both martial stances and only 1 can be active at any given time.

ahh skipped over the martial stance part. shame that would be really fun :D curses.

[Loyrl]

These look interesting, just wish I had enough cman points to actually use them. Along with an ensorcelled weapon.

[MrMortimur]

So, prior to april second I could have sworn the monk stance "Stance of the Mongoose" was in fact monks only. It currently now is warriors and monks, was this change slipped in without announcement or am I remembering wrong?

[Riltus]

So, prior to april second I could have sworn the monk stance "Stance of the Mongoose" was in fact monks only. It currently now is warriors and monks, was this change slipped in without announcement or am I remembering wrong?

You're not remembering wrong.

They wanted to release multiple martial stances for warriors, not just one, in order to give warriors several choices. Mongoose was probably withheld until the second wave was complete, for that reason.

Mark

[SpiffyJr]

You're not remembering wrong.

They wanted to release multiple martial stances for warriors, not just one, in order to give warriors several choices. Mongoose was probably withheld until the second wave was complete, for that reason.

Mark

Maybe you guys can actually use the damn thing. Monks very rarely parry compared to dodge so I'd be surprised if it was currently used on *any* monk.

[Aganii]

Anyone have a chance to play around with shield pin? How much crit weighting does it add?

[Valyss]

I've decided to switch out Executioner's Stance for Stance of the Mongoose, here's why:

Executioner's Stance was fun. However, I could only reasonably use it against things that didn't pose a significant challenge, i.e. something I could reasonably be in offensive stance against two of at the same time. Also, since it didn't flare off of mstrikes, it wasn't useful in common group hunting scenarios like bandits.

Mongoose has proved to be slightly more mechanically useful. It's interrupted mstrikes on their first swing, stunned things for further setup, and killed other things in the room. It's not perfect-- sometimes it'll stick you in further RT when you're really trying to leave a room.

What has people's experiences been with the new martial stances?

[Klinor]

I use twc handaxes and have dervish rank 3 and think it's worth the points and the stance.

[tallkris3]

I did get my weapon enscrolled a T1 to used tainted bond. I think the cman could have some use once you get to the higher tiers of enscrollment but definitely not worth it at the lower ranks at a 20 CMAN point cost.

[Aganii]

I agree and think that stance of the mongoose is VERY good and probably more useful than executioner's stance for a thw/pole warrior. I tried exec stance with 5 ranks of sblow and still had mixed results. The corpse tossing aspect was very fun, but it still did not trigger as much as I would have liked for it to be worth THAT many CMAN points. It is worth mentioning that the corpse tossing seemed to effect non-corps just the same for the added roundtimek though. In the end they are all great stances to add some flavor to your hunting, but to me the usefulness of having a 3 second swing off your parries with parry mastery running is much better than the chance of doing an open swing against a second creature in the room that probably had to be incapacitated in some way in the first place. It also works during berserk too and keeps the AS bonus which is just fun to watch. Executioner's stance would be much better if it had a chance to flare off of mstrikes or hit more than one creature but even then the VERY high prereqs for it would make it a hard choice.

[Jace Solo]

I'm using Dervish right now with a pole warrior. It's activation seems pretty frequent at max ranks but it really only affects Mstrikes. It make things like MTK's convenient as I mstrike a lot and it'll clean up growing limbs without further RT sometimes. Saves me a couple seconds here and there.

Mongoose sounds like a good idea. Probably something to try out if I switch to THW instead of going Blunt/Board on the next fixskill. Decisions, decisions...

[Valyss]

After a few more days with mongoose, I actually went back to executioners :X

Mongoose almost got me killed a few too many times. I'd get into a swarm, and just be trying to leave, and mongoose would perfectly stick me with more and more RT. It would also be swinging at undead when I wasn't blessed and things with cloak of shadows. There are also a few bugs in mongoose that I've filed. It almost never works when something ambushes from hiding, giving an error message about not having a target. Also, it will sometimes attempt to attack gear that the mob is wearing?

A dwarven thief leaps out of his hiding place!
A dwarven thief swings a bastard sword at you!
As you parry a dwarven thief's attack, you see an opportunity for immediate retaliation!
You currently have no valid target. You will need to specify one.


A triton executioner claws at you!
As you parry a triton executioner's attack, you see an opportunity for immediate retaliation!
You cannot attack the ashen heavy crossbow.



Executioner's is fun for easy stuff, and actually works when I'm in maintenance-mode in a warcamp- just feinting and ambushing to stay on top of the crowd

[Aganii]

Those mongoose bugs look weird! havent seen those yet but I will bug it too. That would be a huge turn off if it wasnt working right now. Do you use executioner's stance with the staggering blow effect or just the normal version? I can see how mongoose could get you killed when you are on the ropes and trying to leave in a hurry.

[bremerial]

I've not opted for mongoose for the same reasons Valyss has stated. My fear is that it would take the attacking control out of my hands when hunting swarms, and particularly swarms with a mixture of corporeal and undead. And executioner is fun but just not worth the cman points for me, being dependant on M/blow and S/blow. (Purely a personal response the use of points)

Dervish on the other hand is quite efficient. I control when I use it, as a THW user as unlike TWC, it only kicks in when I am using focus mstrike. I feint, warccry or tackle one creature to make it more vulnerable to death at the first mstrike blow, and a second or third is dispatched efficiently.

On a side note, I trained to rank 3 in Griffin. I liked the idea of war crying undead and reducing vocal recovery time but actually, it's not having the impact I thought it might have. May need to rethink that.

[thefarmer]

Dervish on the other hand is quite efficient. I control when I use it, as a THW user as unlike TWC, it only kicks in when I am using focus mstrike.

Dervish has no RT. So it doesn't matter if it kicks or not. But it works the exact same for THW as it does for TWC.

[Vindicate]

Changing out Mongoose as well for same reasons as Valyss has noted.

[stormcrow]

Yeah I'm with Bremerial on this one. Dervish is the best one in my opinion. But you have to make sure you set up the room first, meaning get critters in a stance you know you can hit them in and attack the easier ones first so if they die quickly you will have more swings at the next opponent.



I've not opted for mongoose for the same reasons Valyss has stated. My fear is that it would take the attacking control out of my hands when hunting swarms, and particularly swarms with a mixture of corporeal and undead. And executioner is fun but just not worth the cman points for me, being dependant on M/blow and S/blow. (Purely a personal response the use of points)

Dervish on the other hand is quite efficient. I control when I use it, as a THW user as unlike TWC, it only kicks in when I am using focus mstrike. I feint, warccry or tackle one creature to make it more vulnerable to death at the first mstrike blow, and a second or third is dispatched efficiently.

On a side note, I trained to rank 3 in Griffin. I liked the idea of war crying undead and reducing vocal recovery time but actually, it's not having the impact I thought it might have. May need to rethink that.

[Danical]

Has anyone tried using Griffin + Bellow + High Inf? Warcry Bellow All seems like a really grand idea if you've got the INF; 3 seconds of RT, all creatures take up to 20 seconds of RT, very little vocal stress. Warcry Cry All is even better although, not nearly as efficient with vocal stress.

I seem to remember using Warcry Cry All with my 30 INF giantman and zerking to clear out a room. I really wished they would have allowed my idea of Warcries being usable while zerking because that just seems to make sense.

[Archigeek]

My main use of Griffin's Voice is to use Holler for pretty much an entire hunt. Basically Griffin's Voice gives me an extra 20AS 90% of the time, when without it I'm looking at 25% of the time.

The two shield maneuvers I'm getting the most out of are trample and guard mastery, though it's harder to tell with a lot of those, since more blocks or less DS loss are harder to quantify, but I'd guess they've probably kept me alive a couple of times at this point. I suppose I'd also have to put focus up there, but that's kind of a given with shield use now, five ranks of focus is a must in my book.

[stormcrow]

got to love coraesine and whirlwind dervish


You explode into a fury of strikes and ripostes, moving with a singular purpose and will!
You swing a glowing coraesine flail at a triton combatant!
The triton combatant evades the attack by a hair!
You swing a glowing coraesine flail at a triton combatant!
AS: +528 vs DS: +287 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +34 = +309
... and hit for 59 points of damage!
Right hand smashed into a pulpy mass.
You feel a slight resistance from the weapon. Quicker than you are able to react the resistance fades and you notice your movements speed up!
You swing a glowing coraesine flail at a triton combatant!
AS: +528 vs DS: +287 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +5 = +280
... and hit for 65 points of damage!
Flesh ripped from back, muscles exposed.
You feel a slight resistance from the weapon. Quicker than you are able to react the resistance fades and you notice your movements speed up!
You swing a glowing coraesine flail at a triton combatant!
AS: +528 vs DS: +277 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +12 = +297
... and hit for 59 points of damage!
Left elbow smashed into a thousand pieces.
You feel a slight resistance from the weapon. Quicker than you are able to react the resistance fades and you notice your movements speed up!
You swing a glowing coraesine flail at a triton combatant!
The triton combatant barely manages to block the attack with his parma!
A blast of air strikes the triton combatant.
... 10 points of damage!
Blow to neck tears tissue.
A blast of air strikes the triton combatant.
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to chest!
A blast of air strikes the triton combatant.
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to back!
You swing a glowing coraesine flail at a triton combatant!
AS: +528 vs DS: +247 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +35 = +350
... and hit for 88 points of damage!
Damaging strike to chest, several ribs shattered!
The triton combatant collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.
You deftly switch your ongoing attack towards a triton executioner!
You swing a glowing coraesine flail at a triton executioner!
AS: +528 vs DS: +299 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +56 = +327
... and hit for 146 points of damage!
Incredible blast shatters head into a red spray.
The triton executioner collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.

Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you winded and out of position.
Roundtime: 11 sec.