What is an engagement?

[SpunGirl]

So Jake and I were supposed to go to the movies tonight, and my friend called and was all sobbing, so we wound up missing the movie so I could talk to her and try to calm her down.

She's been living with her boyfriend for the last year, since we graduated college. They've been engaged for the last three years, since we were still IN college, and she wanted to get married when we were all done. He didn't, he said he wanted to wait until he felt like they were financially secure and settled in their jobs, etc. That makes sense to me. However, they've both landed great jobs in their field and their careers are looking good. Her aunt died, leaving her a BUTTLOAD of money, like, enough for eternal financial security. So she figures now is the time to get married, right?

They got in a big fight about it today and he basically told her he didn't feel comfortable making that comittment right now. I mean... why the fuck are they engaged, anyway? To me, an engagement is just that, a promise/decision to marry someone. I can't imagine why someone would get engaged if they weren't comfortable with the comittment factor.

We talked about it a little more and I realized something funny. When they were first announcing that they were "engaged," he really... wasn't. Like, announcing that. It was all her. There was no ring, which I don't count as a prerequisite, but she basically admitted through the course of our conversation that she had said one day that she wanted to marry him, and he gave some kind of assent, and she figured that meant she was engaged.

She's my friend and I love her to death, but I can't believe she's being this stupid. I don't want to tell her (in her hysteria) that she should drop him and leave, but if marrying him is what she wants, that's clearly not going to happen. I don't even feel she's engaged "for real."

Advice or thoughts?

-K

[Edaarin]

How old is your friend?

If it were me...and this is just my opinion...I most certainly would not want to get married in my early 20s. Not ready yet to settle down. That's not to say I wouldn't want to be in a steady relationship, but marriage is monumentous. First marriage, then maybe a year or two of honeymooning, then the kids start coming? Just observing my sister since she had her kid, I don't know if I'd be ready at that point in my life to have my world revolve around taking care of one.

Maybe it's too soon for this guy, maybe she needs to give him some space for awhile. The thought of marriage before I'm at least 27 or so is enough to make me run through a solid brick wall.

EDIT: Again...just my opinion...but it sounds like your friend is exceedingly needy. And it sounds like anyone with half a mind could tell that the guy's heart wasn't into the engagement announcement (not even a ring? that's not an engagement). You're not Ann Landers, just tell her that no matter how right she thinks the guy is if he won't even go into the announcement of an engagement they're not getting married.

[Edited on 8-9-2004 by Edaarin]

[SpunGirl]

I think that's good advice, Edaarin. Acutally, she is a bit of a serial monogamist, she left one bad relationship to start a new one with this guy. It would probably be good for her to go it on her own for awhile.

I think marriage is right at different times for different people. I got married at 23, but I'm not having kids until I'm like 30 (if ever).

-K

Edited to add: She just turned 25.

[Edited on 8-9-2004 by SpunGirl]

[Tsa`ah]

I hate to say it, but that scenario is typical.

Most guys will agree to a loose engagement, or never truly agree with the idea.

The common conversation in college happens something like this.

Girl: We've been together for almost two years now. We've lived together for over half of that, why not just get married?

Guy: I'd rather wait until we get out of college and get on our feet. (Translation, I don't want to get married now, I'm doubtful I want to get married in the next 5 years, and I say what I said so you don't freak out on me and get this notion that I don't care about you just so you'll move out and shack up with some frat boy who will marry you within a weeks time.)

Girl: I didn't mean now, but maybe when we both get jobs and settle down.

Guy: Sure, when we both have jobs, are secure, and settle down. (Translation, I don't know what the hell job I'm going to get after graduation let alone know where I'll live. I just hope you don't remember the specifics of this conversation when all those things happen.)

It's more accepted for a girl to bring up marriage in this age but most often the girl doesn't come out and ask, they hint and suggest and hear what they want without looking at the situation or considering the person they are pseudo asking.

It happens regularly. The guy, asshole or not, doesn't want to be an asshole to said girl. Girl doesn't read the discomfort of the guy, girl is an emotional wreck years later because she assumed they would get married and the guy didn't have the balls to say from the start that he wasn't sure.

It's kind of like saying no to a kid without saying no. We'll see ... maybe later.

[Edaarin]

Not me. My last serious girlfriend started to broach the subject right before we broke up. I don't remember my exact words, but it was something along the lines of "BITCH I'M NOT EVEN 19 YET."

Minus the "bitch."

[SpunGirl]

Hahahaha.

I think you're calling the situation perfectly, Tsa'ah. In fact, I'm sure lots of guys do that, college or no. It seems kind of sad to me that she's been calling him her fiancee all this time. I mean, when I started calling Jake my fiancee it was because he had proposed to me, officially (ring and all, yay!) and we started talking about a date.

I think next time we talk I'm going to ask her why she wants to marry someone who clearly doesn't want to marry her. It doesn't seem like it would be a happy marriage... getting married doesn't magically "fix" things if they're already wrong.

-K

[Apathy]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

and I say what I said so you don't freak out on me and get this notion that I don't care about you just so you'll move out and shack up with some frat boy who will marry you within a weeks time.)


I must have missed something. When did the stereotypical frat boy start proposing to a girl within a week?

Never heard that one before. Heard a lot of them though.

<--frat boy, atypical

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Apathy
I must have missed something. When did the stereotypical frat boy start proposing to a girl within a week?

Never heard that one before. Heard a lot of them though.

<--frat boy, atypical

I never said stereotypical. I just said frat boy because of the whole college scene. While in college the most heinous of acts my wife (then girl friend/fiancée) could have done would have been hopping in the sack with a frat boy. Most indy guys in college would rather lose out to a stray dog with some sort of testicular disfigurement than to a frat boy.

If it makes you feel any better I'll allow you replace frat boy with any other term you want.

[CrystalTears]

I agree with Tsa`ah on this one too. There are guys out there who aren't ready for the commitment of marriage, and when confronted with the idea, they dance around it by not saying yes but also not saying no simply because he doesn't want to lose her already to this, so she thinks that this is it and assumes they are pseudo-engaged.

I wouldn't completely dismiss him though. He probably does have feelings for her but just doesn't want to do the I-do's just yet. Maybe he'll come around and decide he does want to be with her and ask her officially.

If anything, I thought this guy was sincere and honest enough to admit his feelings and say something before it was too late. It also seems to me that it was obviously not just about the money. A guy who didn't care about feelings and commitment would jump on the chance of living financially comfortable for life. At least now she'll have the time to think it over and figure out if he is really for her or move on.

[SpunGirl]

I guess that brings up another important question. Say they were to be "officially" engaged, how long should she be willing to wait? What if he doesn't actually propose?

I'd hate to see her waste her life waiting for someone who was never going to come around. It seems like boyfriends can be indefinite and obviously husbands are supposed to be, but if there's a "fiancee" involved there should be some forward action there.

I donno.

-K, glad she never had to deal with this.

[AnticorRifling]

If you're in your early 20's don't do it. The end.

[CrystalTears]

Oh I don't think she should sit around and wait for him, per say. I think she should consider the relationship over at this point and move on, spend some alone time.

If he comes back later and she still wants to be with him, great, just as long as they're both upfront and honest about what to expect and make plans of when to marry and not let it linger.

Maybe she'll find someone else who won't play around with the commitment game and give her what she wants and it won't matter when this guy comes back.

I wish her lots of luck. Starting relationships suck. :D

[Edited on 8/9/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Weedmage Princess]

What CT said.

It could be that she's ready and he's not. It doesn't even mean he's an asshole, just that he isn't ready and she kind of bombarded him with this--he, caring enough about her to not want to lose her, went along with the engaged thing.

She needs to decide what's more important to her...being married or staying with this guy. It's a rough decision of course but one that needs to be made.

[Parkbandit]

That guys an idiot. She now has a buttload of money and still doesn't wanna get married? What a dumbass.

He should have taken her to the cleaners... one for the guys for a change.

PS - The above was mostly in jest.. but not entirely :)

[DeV]

This guy is clearly not ready for marriage and probably only consented to the engagement to make her happy "at the moment". He isn't after her for her money which is a good thing. She should either drop the idea of marriage until HE comes to her and proposes or discuss things clearly with him. Such as, where he wants the relationship to go, or where he feels they will be within a certain number of year. I mean if there is a future he and she would be willing to wait. If not, they need to stop wasting each others time.

[Soulpieced]

Shit, if my girlfriend came into enough money to safely set us up for life, I would definitely bring up the topic of marriage. Granted this sounds terrible, and I am your stereotypical guy, I mean, come on.. you can work AND have x million dollars in the bank? Now, I probably wouldn't want to get married for at least another 2 years, it would definitely be something on my mind that could help live a happier life.

[Czeska]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Guy: Sure, when we both have jobs, are secure, and settle down. (Translation, I don't know what the hell job I'm going to get after graduation let alone know where I'll live. I just hope you don't remember the specifics of this conversation when all those things happen.)


First mistake: A woman would NEVER forget the conversation. She probably has it burned into her brain verbatim.

Nonetheless, yeah, I'd say he cared/cares about her, doesn't want to lose the comfort of the relationship, but is leaving himself an "out", be it for now or forever, who knows.

As far as how long she should wait? If it were me I'd be thinking ultimatum. I don't mean marry me or it's over.. I mean, straight answer time. Just be sure you're willing to live with the answer at that point, though.

~Miriam, who doesn't like to be left wondering.

[Apathy]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

If it makes you feel any better I'll allow you replace frat boy with any other term you want.

How about new-age aerobics dance instructor?

On topic, the guy seems like he's still stuck in the "grass is greener" stage of life which is pretty natural for a guy. Either that or he's in the closet.

[xtc]

Yeah this guy doesn't want to get to married, an engagement means a ring and a date set for the wedding. I think the college conversation sounds likely. If she really wants to get married she needs to find someone else.

[Jazuela]

Just to correct something: Engagement doesn't mean a date set for the wedding. It means that you and your partner have decided to marry, at some point eventually, and that you will marry each other rather than other people.

That is all it means. No ring required either, though it is customary.

Other than that I agree with Ts'ah, but the other side of the "translation" needs to be included:



Girl: We've been together for almost two years now. We've lived together for over half of that, why not just get married?

Translation: I want to get married, and in particular, to you. I wish you would propose to me.



Guy: I'd rather wait until we get out of college and get on our feet. (Translation, I don't want to get married now, I'm doubtful I want to get married in the next 5 years, and I say what I said so you don't freak out on me and get this notion that I don't care about you just so you'll move out and shack up with some frat boy who will marry you within a weeks time.)

What the girl HEARS: So, once we graduate college and get jobs, we will get married. We are now declaring our love and commitment to each other, which means we can consider ourselves engaged.



Girl: I didn't mean now, but maybe when we both get jobs and settle down.

Translation: I am repeating what you just said to me, to confim that this is, in fact, what you just said.



Guy: Sure, when we both have jobs, are secure, and settle down. (Translation, I don't know what the hell job I'm going to get after graduation let alone know where I'll live. I just hope you don't remember the specifics of this conversation when all those things happen.)

What the girl hears: Yep, you got it! We will get married, to each other, at that point. Congrats!

[Edited on 8-9-2004 by Jazuela]

[Caiylania]

It's worse than learning Italian. oiy.

[CrystalTears]

That's the problem I have with people and their different definition of engagement. What's this "eventually" crap? What's the point of getting engaged to, oh someday, marry? You figure if you're going to get engaged, you're going to get married soon. These people getting engaged for YEARS is just ridiculous to me.

[Ben]

You'd think if she was loaded he'd wanna get married.

[DeV]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
These people getting engaged for YEARS is just ridiculous to me. I agree. My co-worker just recently tied the knot with her guy of 10, count em, 10 years. They started dating in high school, lived common law for the longest all through college and up to now. They finally got married last month, and he was the one holding out all this time.
If you're going to be engaged for longer than a year, wtf is the point? <don't answer that>

[SpunGirl]

I agree. I mean, I was engaged for a little over a year, but we'd set the date and started planning the wedding five months after the proposal. We just wanted to wait until we'd both graduated.

-K

[Betheny]

an engagement should be a year long.

No more, no less.

If after a year you can't do it, you ought to break up.

Elaboration: more than a year? It'll never happen. Less than a y ear? Seems rushed.

[Edited on 8-9-2004 by Maimara]

[CrystalTears]

Oh I can understand a year or two. That's about how long you need to plan and coordinate. I was engaged for a year before we got married. That's about your standard engagement time.

I'm talking about the people who get engaged, never set a date, never even plan out the wedding until 5+ years later. Why get engaged? I don't get it.

[Souzy]

He still has doubts. Maybe he doesn't see himself with her at the end? Is she kinda supporting him? Maybe he fells bad if he breaks up with her? I was engaged for 6 years before realizing I didn't see myself at the end with him. We should've been married. I never even planned a wedding date, never planned nothing. Why? I didn't see myself with him, but I was too comfortable with him and wasn't sure if I was ready for the change. We got engaged cos it was planned by my family and his family. It was something I had to do to make up with my parents and all that cultural stuff. Then, eventually I fell in love with him, he was my life, and I felt guilty everytime I wanted to leave him. Until...I couldn't take it no more, so we talked about it and called it quits. It was the best thing for both of us. Ended it on good terms, life is so much better for me and if I was still with my ex, I wouldn't have met the man EVAR.

[Betheny]

If there are issues that stop you from wanting to marry someone, you shouldn't be with them in the first place. There's no point in prolonging it.

[Weedmage Princess]

It would be ironic if they wind up getting married then like 2-3 years afterwards she looks at him and wishes she didn't marry him after all...heh.

[Jazuela]

I don't think it's unreasonable to narrow it down to a general future time, but some arbitrary "year" or "two years" isn't the "rule" and shouldn't be the "rule." Not every couple fits into a nice neat category of "engaged people."

I was already living with Joe when he proposed to me; there was no rush, though I did want to get a general idea of when. This coming year? Next year? Some time within the next five years? Whatever - as long as we had some goal in mind, I was fine with it.

After 6 months of being engaged I asked him to please think of a goal for our wedding day, and we worked out a year from then. We've been married 13 years. If I had pushed him for a date when we first got engaged, it's possible that I'd have scared him off and we wouldn't have gotten married at all. I'm glad I didn't push.

[CrystalTears]

I wouldn't want to be engaged to someone who may be "scared off" for choosing/planning a date for a wedding that comes with GETTING ENGAGED. :wtf:

[Weedmage Princess]

I've found that you can get just about anything you want when you're the one wielding the knife. Engagements, set wedding dates, making them put the seat down, etc.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Jazuela
If I had pushed him for a date when we first got engaged, it's possible that I'd have scared him off and we wouldn't have gotten married at all. I'm glad I didn't push. Are you serious? I mean, he proposed to you and you felt you might have scared him off by pushing for a wedding date. No offense, but that's retarded.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
I've found that you can get just about anything you want when you're the one wielding the knife.If only Weedie was President during the Cold War.

[Betheny]

Man, guys are pussies.

...some of them.

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Jazuela
If I had pushed him for a date when we first got engaged, it's possible that I'd have scared him off and we wouldn't have gotten married at all. I'm glad I didn't push. Are you serious? I mean, he proposed to you and you felt you might have scared him off by pushing for a wedding date. No offense, but that's retarded.

I agree, and what CT said also. An engagement is exactly that, a promise to marry someone. If he was freaked out by the idea of setting a date for said wedding, proposing was a dumb idea. I'm glad it worked out, though.

-K

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Edaarin
How old is your friend?

If it were me...and this is just my opinion...I most certainly would not want to get married in my early 20s. Not ready yet to settle down. That's not to say I wouldn't want to be in a steady relationship, but marriage is monumentous.

I totally agree. I'm betting most marriages that occur in this age range end up failing.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I totally agree. I'm betting most marriages that occur in this age range end up failing.

What tipped you off? The 49% divorce rate or the news?

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by StrayRogue

Originally posted by Edaarin
How old is your friend?

If it were me...and this is just my opinion...I most certainly would not want to get married in my early 20s. Not ready yet to settle down. That's not to say I wouldn't want to be in a steady relationship, but marriage is monumentous.

I totally agree. I'm betting most marriages that occur in this age range end up failing.

I count myself lucky, 6 years and going. But I would never recommend it. It was right for me, but on average, it mostly doesn't work out. Most of my friends have been divorced that married young like me.

And to stay OT ... He proposed after 3 months we were engaged for 3 months. :D

[Tsa`ah]

Got married at 22, I'll be 31 soon and I'm still married.

Marriages in the US that happen between two people below the age of 25 have a 5 year life expectancy.

[SpunGirl]

There's even a phenomenon/term for it, they call it the "starter marriage."

I don't think there's a "right" age to get married. People are going to make retarded decisions at any age, and they're going to make smart decisions at any age as well.

-K