Question about lore training

[Mage]

Was thinking about dropping all lores except 24 ranks air lore. is that a good ideal for a post capp wizard? i was thinking the DF increast is not the great for the cost of TP's. Could i get some feedback on thies thoughts?

[Gelston]

Depends on what you are using the points gained for. I'd say lores are fairly important, and it is nice to have more air lores. It does a lot more than just DFs.

[Methais]

Was thinking about dropping all lores except 24 ranks air lore. is that a good ideal for a post capp wizard? i was thinking the DF increast is not the great for the cost of TP's. Could i get some feedback on thies thoughts?

Do this:
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?22624-Fire-Lore-Appreciation

[Whirlin]

DF increases are only barely worth it for the first 50... Even then, completely depends on endroll and target's armor.

Depends heavily on spell ranks and what the next best alternative training is.

[DaCapn]

If you compare the DF increase to 906/908 for 50 ranks of fire lore (at 1x cost), the endroll increase from an equivalent number of SR ranks (at 3x cost), the lores are more TP-efficient at increasing critical ranks (except against robes, I think). Also, lore ranks grant a higher number of splash targets on average than MOC ranks per TP spent for the first few ranks of MOC (maybe 5?).

That's obviously not the be-all-end-all (secondary circle contributions to CS, for instance) but it's important to run the numbers. The equations are all there but most people don't do it. And there's a subset of people who don't do it and are extremely vocal about how correct their assumptions are. Of course, this goes a lot further than just this question.

[Methais]

Also, lore ranks grant a higher number of splash targets on average than MOC ranks per TP spent for the first few ranks of MOC (maybe 5?).

Lore = maximum splash targets
MOC = minimum splash targets

[Whirlin]

I'll copypaste from my wizard guide...


Lores... Whats the deal with that?
24 ranks of Air Lore, as explained in the opening post is really the most important thing you can do for haste potency. Other than that, Lores fall short to other training opportunities.

Water, Fire, Air, Earth lores' main functions are to increase Damage Factors of their corresponding spells. But here's the catch. In most cases, that DF increase isn't sufficient to make up for the next best alternative of an AS increase by training in more spell research. So, to compare apples to apples, we need to compare +1 AS (2 spell ranks) (0/64) to the relative increase in potency by lores (0/6) each. So 10 ranks in Lores versus 1 AS, just to keep it simple... That's also not the full benefit of Spell Research.

Lets use 906 as an example spell. To make things simple, we'll just be calculating raw damage via DF numbers.
906 gains DF from lores at the rate of .001 Per rank up to 50, and then .001 per 2 ranks post 50.
We'll look at the first 50 ranks first.

-Title-|-Cloth-|-Leather-|-Scale-|-Chain-|-Plate-
Damage Factor|.667|.445|.345|.323|.303
Damage Factor w/ Lores | .677|.455|.355|.333|.313
Required Endroll to be Equal|166|145|135|133|130

Since Lores have a higher rate of change, while +1 AS gives it a higher starting point (think graphs), endrolls above those listed above will favor Lores over the AS boost. Of course, it makes sense that the benefit is largest on those with the lowest base Damage Factor. This is a VERY important concept, but I'll touch upon that in one of the builds below. But lets take a look at post-50 lore ranks and the rate of change.

-Title-|-Cloth-|-Leather-|-Scale-|-Chain-|-Plate-
Damage Factor|.667|.445|.345|.323|.303
Damage Factor w/ Lores | .672|.450|.350|.338|.308
Required Endroll to be Equal|233|190|170|166|161

Spell Research also offers CS and DS boosts, along with intangible things like more leech from 516, longer spell durations, etc. Lores will help damage when your end rolls are already high. Personally, I'm in favor of more spell research, but hey, train however you want. Like I said, it's hard to be a bad wizard.

[Aluvius]

Jesus Fuck! What do you expect someone to look back a whole week to find your damn guide!!?1

[DaCapn]

Lore = maximum splash targets
MOC = minimum splash targets

Right. But from a probability standpoint, increasing maximum targets will result in a greater number of targets being hit per TP spent. Of course it depends where you hunt. If you hunt warcamps, definitely rely lore. If you hunt somewhere where a maximum of 2 creatures show up, maybe take a rank of MOC.


I'll copypaste from my wizard guide...

It seems like we agree completely on mechanics. I'm basically trading a potential 7 MjE CS (though more realistically, I'd be putting the points into wizard base and basically only getting benefits to enchanting) and getting an increase in critical ranks dealt with 906/908 in the 200-300 endroll range (+1 in most cases, and in some cases +2). I think that's a good trade. I have a good MjE CS, most of my endrolls are in the 200s and I have a chance to crit-kill against targets in plate with 906.

My other wizard only has 24 air lore. These days I'm looking at 501 and it seems 10x better as a setup than 505 bolt. But the 506 and 511 benefits are good.

[Whirlin]

If your AS is fine, if your CS is fine, then yeah... lores... but I wouldn't sacrifice Spell Research for lores... there's just too much that rely on ranks. And its not often that the lores alone would be enough to stage up a crit, etc... Maybe I'll do some more maths around the effects of required endroll for crit kills against various armor types with lores/no lores.

But even immolation builds rely on high CS / endroll to get instant deaths... and secondly it's lore training.

In regards to the MOC/Lore discussion, I recommend picking up a +1 rank MOC enhancive... they shouldn't run more than 100-200k, and it's perfectly effective to increase 0 to 1. I wouldn't worry about raising the minimum much beyond that

[Methais]

But even immolation builds rely on high CS / endroll to get instant deaths... and secondly it's lore training.

I don't think endrolls have anything to do with the frequency of instant kill with immolate. My CS is significantly higher now than it was when I posted all those Immolation clips years ago, and my insta-kill rate seems pretty much the same, and seems to be totally independent of the endroll. I'm pretty sure that's just based on lore ranks. Higher endrolls just seem to = more damage when you don't instant kill.

[Mage]

Thanks everyone on the input.

[liquiddrool]

lovin my 60 fire lore on my 50 wiz..519 hits for 3-4 shots most of the time. get insta kills about 10% of the time. only 46 MjE but that will be going up as soon as my spell aiming migrates to 0

[lordsmo]

I don't think endrolls have anything to do with the frequency of instant kill with immolate. My CS is significantly higher now than it was when I posted all those Immolation clips years ago, and my insta-kill rate seems pretty much the same, and seems to be totally independent of the endroll. I'm pretty sure that's just based on lore ranks. Higher endrolls just seem to = more damage when you don't instant kill.

I think Methais is right about this. I have 0 fire lore, and I believe my insta-kill rate with 519 is 0%. I just ran around generating ~500 endrolls in the catacombs for a while and got no insta-kills. I also got no rank 8 or lower crits. Only rank 9s. Sample size was 30 rats. I have never, to my recollection, ever generated an insta-kill with immolate.

The insta-immolate roll probably occurs before the game-engine even calculates the CS/TD resolution, although it would take further testing with a tiny amount of fire lore and huge endrolls to conclusively rule out a formula where both fire lore and endroll are factors (e.g. a 0% fire lore multiplier times any endroll multiplier could still be zero). My guess is the former though.

I would also be interested to know if fire lore affects the critical rank achieved. The official documents appear to imply this, but this seems like just the type of thing the officials would be wrong about. What does everyone think? Endroll controls the crit rank and fire lore controls the number of cycles and the insta-kill chance? Or does fire lore also impact the crit ranks?

[lordsmo]

To address the second paragraph of my previous post, I just trained up 2 ranks of fire lore and killed another 30 rats. Endrolls all in the 500 range. Zero insta-immolates. I feel like if endroll was in any way involved I would get insta-kills pretty regularly. Not rigorous in any way, but I'm convinced.

[Methais]

Pretty sure lore training just affects the amount of hits, and the insta-kill rate.

Damage and crits are endroll based from what I can tell, though I haven't paid much attention to the actual crits enough to really say for sure.

[Whirlin]

With access to a far past capped wizard and a fixskills, I'd be able to do some testing on the matter... but I thought I had read somewhere imbedded in the immolation testing thread that the primary concern of an immo build is CS first, then fire lore afterwards... I'll revise my guide if this is not the case.

[Methais]

With access to a far past capped wizard and a fixskills, I'd be able to do some testing on the matter... but I thought I had read somewhere imbedded in the immolation testing thread that the primary concern of an immo build is CS first, then fire lore afterwards... I'll revise my guide if this is not the case.

Probably because it's an expensive spell, and damage (not damage cycle) are tied to the endroll. Pretty sure that's the case with any CS spell in the game though.

Insta-kill rate aside, an immolate with 0 lore and a 250 endroll is probably going to be better than an immolate with a +104 endroll and 202 ranks of lore.

I'd say the best way to compare it would be for a capped wizard with a 500+ CS and little to no fire lore to go spam immolate in Nelemar and compare it to my log from years ago (I think I was only casting a little over 500 then, I'm at 556 now).

[Whirlin]

It's definitely something I want to test later on in my gemstone career.

of course, I still haven't completed all the phantom DEX damage thanks to choosing horrible critters to test on. So just like, 40 different weapons to go. Shouldn't be too bad to test thanks to Gib's scripts. Just a matter of finding the time to do it.

Once I cap, and gain a couple million more XP, I'll Fixskills to 3x Spells, 0 lores with a bajillion TP left over, and hunt, gradually adding more fire lores. Of course, that may be in like, a year. I just hit 87 on last week's Lumnis, and it usually takes me 2-3 weeks per level.

I guess I should arrr pee to get some XP faster, but I'll put that burden on the readers of my posts to nominate me for arrppees with my lols and my halfling foot scratching.

[Fallen]

Seems like you can never go wrong with Air lore. It adds some to bolt DF and keeps increasing haste benefits.

Helps Minor shock, Major Shock, Cone of Lightning, Haste, Sandstorm, Floating Disk, Slow, Hand of Tonis, and Call Wind. Pretty groovy.

[Methais]

Seems like you can never go wrong with Air lore. It adds some to bolt DF and keeps increasing haste benefits.

Training up your Immolate CS with MjE ranks will also keep increasing haste benefits as well. I've never messed with Tonis Bolt though, I'll probably try it for a bit with 202 ranks before FIXSKILLS resets.

[Fallen]

Training up your Immolate CS with MjE ranks will also keep increasing haste benefits as well. I've never messed with Tonis Bolt though, I'll probably try it for a bit with 202 ranks before FIXSKILLS resets.

Yep. Air lore helps Minor shock, Major Shock, Cone of Lightning, Haste, Sandstorm, Floating Disk, Slow, Hand of Tonis, and Call Wind. Pretty groovy.

Between the lore ranks and the MajE ranks, Haste becomes pretty OP. Pretty much all end-game deaths in GS that aren't outright crit kills are due to RT stacking. With haste always up your odds of survival raise dramatically.