Sorry I'm late.

[Celtic]

Stray Rogue said: "No. You made a statement with no evidence to support it. Its simple as that. Sagan is probably the only one here with any real authority to talk about the bans in GS, and he was no longer a GM in the time frame we're talking about."


I was. Sagan's comments are valid as they were when he was a GM as when I was employed there.

T'sah's comments are correct in that Simu has gone extremely lenient on players.

He is also correct about several other things that I can't comment on for another 8 months.

Maybe these threads will be recirculated about that time.

Feel free to U2U me if you would like to continue the thread there. I understand why T'sah wanted to close it down and I apologize for not getting here more often then I do.

[HarmNone]

No problem, Celtic. Having a life takes priority. ;)

Thanks for validating Tsa`ah's stance. I, for one, agree with him, and with you. It was the more lenient stance that took many of us out of the game for good. If there are no standards, if those few standards that are set are not enforced, anarchy reigns. If that's the kind of game one wishes to play, there are certainly a hell of a lot of them available. For people like me, it was very sad to see GemStone become just another in the reeking pile. :(

HarmNone

[StrayRogue]

Thanks for the clarification Celtic. I'll ammend my comment saying that only Sagan would have any knowledge of policy issues back then, because I forgot you posted her on occasion. All I can say is, from my experience, things are pretty much the same. If you have a more inside perspective, please share it. I'm all ears. I still think anyone who starts talking about something they have NO idea about is an idiot, however though.

[Back]

My biggest complaint was about that asshole Celtic. What a moron.

[Edited on 8-7-2004 by Backlash]

[Celtic]

"It was the more lenient stance that took many of us out of the game for good."

...

Harmnone.. I guess this really urks me and I know you didn't intentionally say it to do so.

The reason that the standards were lowered was because of the "masses" (I use that term for the 10% that read the boards) wanted it so. So it was so.

"I still think anyone who starts talking about something they have NO idea about is an idiot, however though."

Stray, just because a man renders his opinions about something, doesn't make him right or wrong. It's his opinion. I don't agree with alot of what T'sah says, but in this case, I do agree with him. He is more on the money than you think.

[HarmNone]

I am aware that the wishes of the "masses" were what brought about the decision to lower the standards, Celtic. It bugs the hell out of me, too.

HarmNone wishes it were not so

[StrayRogue]

What I meant Celtic was saying how something was without actually having any experience of it nor evidence to support it, isn't exactly the best way to formulate and opinion.

One question though, wasn't it more difficult to bring the "iron rule" down on people when there was increased player populations, especially during the time when the peek was around 2000?

[HarmNone]

I'm interested in Celtic's response to this question, as well, Stray. It seems to me that if you decide to take a game to the web, you would be aware that your player base is going to increase dramatically. With that awareness should have come planning. I got the feeling the planning part was sorta overlooked. ;)

HarmNone thinks a better job could have been done with a bit of foresight

[Celtic]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
What I meant Celtic was saying how something was without actually having any experience of it nor evidence to support it, isn't exactly the best way to formulate and opinion.

One question though, wasn't it more difficult to bring the "iron rule" down on people when there was increased player populations, especially during the time when the peek was around 2000?


I started on staff in June of 2000. The peak that you're speaking about occured in late 97 (after the web move). Sagan is more of an authority on staff events from that point. From my percpective, the iron hammer was already lifted when I joined staff. Some of the older hold outs kept trying to keep some semblence of order, but it filtered away once the new policy was written some time around late 2000 or early 2001.

Hope that helps.

[StrayRogue]

Well, I can see why it may have slipped if the average player population increased 200% nearly overnight; there probably wasn't enough people to police that amount of people. Or, was policies just made more lax?

[HarmNone]

Yep. I'd say all hope was gone before 2000; at least, it was from my point of view, and that of others like me. I wasn't aware, however, that new policy had been written. I guess the "masses" have truly won, eh? :(

HarmNone, knowing but still disappointed

[StrayRogue]

I disagree HN. But I don't have the experience of playing prior to the de-ICEing or anything, which is often quoted as the "golden age", when Meta and everyone still knocked about, but I can't imagine it getting any worse since the AOL insurgence.

[Celtic]

Harmnone, you couldn't be more dead on. ;-)

[StrayRogue]

Speaking of which, whats the difference between the old and new policy?

[HarmNone]

It WAS pretty awful during the AOL "attack", Stray. There's no doubt about that. However, if the move had been properly planned, properly staffed for, and properly implemented (with some sort of help and training for new players and a strong stance on behaviors), that did not HAVE to be the case. Such was not done, however.

Since that time, things have continued to degenerate. There aren't 2000 people on most of the time, but it is obvious that there is much less attention paid to disruptive behaviors than once was paid. (Yes, I've been in game just to check things out, so I'm not talking completely out of my hat. ;) )

HarmNone

[Tsa`ah]

From his comments already, and from the general air of the official forums, I don't think it's to hard to figure out policies were made more lax when concerning official action/stance or punishment.

Things did not lighten up with the move to the web, they just took longer to act upon due to the sheer volume of traffic.

My guess is that things became less harsh about the time Whatley figured out the newer crowd of kids liked making trouble and there were more of them than there were people who role played to any extent.

Summer time, proprietary or web, always had/has higher volume ... and it wasn't teachers signing up for accounts during the summer vacation.

During proprietary connection, cash flow was small and tolerance of disruption, thus disrupting cash flow, was not taken lightly.

The web brought a different tale.

What we have now is the phasing out of the protected role play atmosphere and the slow prolonged ushering of hack-n-slash.

Do it slowly and the outflow doesn't hurt as much because the inflow somewhat stabilizes it. That and charges for character transfers, buying old accounts and looking the other way when a ban is circumvented means a new sports car and other modest luxuries one doesn't have to really work for.

[Edited on 8-7-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[StrayRogue]

I'll agree the game took a rapid turn for the worse with the AOL invasion. But I don't think its been on a rapid descent since then. As I've said, the PC and Psinet only amplify the idiots presence in game, but the level of RPing is still high, among those that do RP.

Personally, I can't see a pure RP game making any money in this industry. Games like UL just don't have a wide enough appeal to be very successful.

[Celtic]

I probably agree with most there Tsah, but here's my view. When we were on Genie/AOL, there were hourly charges. This prevented alot of people from growing quickly. Sure we gathered around the town and hung out while our minds drained (back then, you would absorb experience faster on a node hence the node wars on Teras for those of you that could remember them tween me and Thalior's player) so we would come to town and cause the normal trouble. Aanalar and I would play TS/SW bowling (Pre-park days kids) where everyone used to rest to get out of the hub-bub of TSC.

For those of you that didn't know how its played, we'd wait till there were 10 people standing in TSC, then cast call wind. If we knocked down all ten, it was a strike. If we knocked down 8, we had a chance to pick up the spare. THen we'd wait for the pins to reset (Players standing back up). It was quite fun. <cough>

Anyways, the game has changed alot. No, the game isn't the game I remember "growing up" through it. Yes, the places are the same, but the enviornment is different. Players want to fight each other more then go out and hunt. Players would rather "role play a thief" then to actually role play a thief.

It's just not the same on several levels.

Look at the amulet thoughts if you think its the same. :-)

[HarmNone]

Gah! The amulet! May the gods of whatever heaven or hell that might exist save me from the freaking amulet! :barf:

HarmNone hated that freaking amulet

[Artha]

The amulet is worse than Psinet's OOC.

[StrayRogue]

I think its different. Worse in a degree. Better in others. I do think there is quality Roleplay still in gemstone. It isn't encouraged enough, nor rewarded enough, but its still there.

[Tsa`ah]

Just look at how the mentality changed the moment AOL went unlimited.

Vultite and title were mile-stones. Now either is a matter of power/script hunting for x number of weeks.

It took me 4 re-rolls and different training paths to figure out that buying anything less than vultite was a waste of silver, and starting out then for a new players, every silver counted. Hell, making it to the tenth training took me well over 2 months and close to 1,400 bucks. Unlimited, when it happened, was a slap in the face for most, yet very nice at the same time. I titled my ranger, if I remember correctly, 3 weeks before the move to the web. Also when unlimited came, we started having problems with people walking off with personal items left on the courtyard bench while inductees bathed and joined voln.

It was also a feature/bug, that you could join voln right off the bat if you were invited by a player, so long as they set a ring for you in the courtyard.

The first merchant I remember set up tent I think in TSNW and I was shocked to see items for 50,000 silver.

The first raffle I participated in was for a magical coif, and I fail to remember what the properties were or who won it ... I'm thinking it was a db item because the raffle description was that it wasn't armor but would lend protection to the wearer.

[Artha]

I probably think it's worse because I prefer outright OOC to thinly veiled OOC. I almost left a few alterer's shops on the Dhu because people started asking what'd happen if their 'portals dropped.'

[HarmNone]

I don't think anybody is denying that there are pockets of resistance (meaning real, live roleplayers) still plugging away at GemStone, Stray. I'm sure there are, and I salute them for their courage and persistance. I couldn't do it. I just didn't have the patience to deal with the rest of the idiots. It makes me sigh just to think of it.

HarmNone

[StrayRogue]

Nah, outright OOC is why I can't play any graphical MUD. Tried playing SWG and its just so terrible in regards to that. Atleast here some people try to be remotely In Character.

[HarmNone]

Yes, Tsa`ah, the mentality has changed greatly. Not to say that there were not those to whom levels were everything back in the day. But, there were fewer of them per capita than there are now. Now, that seems to be ALL that matters.

I cannot understand how anybody can enjoy scripting their way through a roleplaying game...unless, of course they're just scripting a character up to a decent selling age.....:rolleyes:

HarmNone

[Artha]

There are quite a few great RPers. You don't hear about them much here, but they're out there.

[Tsa`ah]

That's partially why I let my account drop before I left on business.

I'm having more fun in a free game that has 20 people on, tops, than I did the last year or two of GS once a week.

RP is still very much alive in game and as the saying goes, if you look for it you'll find it. Or if you make it yourself.

What pretty much clenched it after the last price hike was the obvious presence of banned players buying accounts and just being a nuisance.

If they're going to allow that, then it would be wise not to council me on killing scripting thieves or poachers, unfortunately it seems they like to pull people who are not AFK and are not stepping out of character.

[StrayRogue]

Interesting. Do you think games like Gemstone "was" will ever exit again? UL comes pretty close (if only it would go live), but lacks the technicality to interest me myself. But I cannot actually see a game where high degree's of RP are enforced while simultaneously having a large player population.

[Ilvane]

The difference between how it used to be roleplaying and nowadays is like night and day. I have noticed especially in the last year or so, that things have changed more. Since the changes to GSIV I have seen so much OOC behaviour, and a small amount of dedication to RP, that it was very disheartening. I came back into the game after taking a short break from playing and tried to RP with people in Icemule, where I used to live, and was completely shocked at the way people were acting, and when I mentioned it to staff, many times I was told to 'lighten up' because it wasn't that big of a deal if there was a bad name, or OOC talking..

I wish that I could say it was the same in GS, but the way the game has 'evolved' in the past few years, is not necessarily good for the RP'rs as it is for the multi-accounters and script hunters. When Stormfront came out, it was said that it was something that catered to the point and click generation. What astounded me was that anyone who didn't like to type, or was interested in a more point and click game, would be someone we would want to bring into a text based game. It seems logical to me that you would want people who were good with words, or text, in a game like ours.:lol:

/rant.

-A

[Artha]

The P&C of StormFront is great.

[Tsa`ah]

I think there could be a happy medium made.

Simu had the right idea with plat, but that should have been prime's first step to the web. The problem is that they set subscription fees to be on par with the rising on-line gaming trend.

There are so many "would've, could've, should've"s to be listed, but I think had they remained adamant about in game behavior and set the price a bit higher, then yes ... I think it could have been pulled off.

Anyone who played pre-unlimited, through unlimited, and on to the web would not have complained much if the fee were 30-120 bucks a month. Anyone who played pre-unlimited and not on an overhead account had already shelled out well beyond that to begin with. If they were still playing at the time of the move, chances are they were in for the long run.

Had they gone that route, smaller player base at a higher subscription fee, so much more could have delivered in a more timely manner.

That's my opinion anyway.

[Edited on 8-7-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[StrayRogue]

Yeah, Tayre, Chica, Me and a few others often comment how much Icemule has changed in the last few years. Its a real shame that the community that had sort of been born has now died out.

[StrayRogue]

I once asked Mustafo why he didn't play Platinum, it seemed exactly what he was missing in Gemstone. His answer was simple: I want Platinum to be Gemstone Standard. And I sort of agree. I wouldn't want to start over again.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Interesting. Do you think games like Gemstone "was" will ever exit again? UL comes pretty close (if only it would go live), but lacks the technicality to interest me myself. But I cannot actually see a game where high degree's of RP are enforced while simultaneously having a large player population.

I think, for the most part, those days are gone. The influx of uncontrolled snerts has pretty much clenched that. They want free PvP, and no controls placed on their behaviors. They do not take well to being told NOT to do something, but simply find a work-around for any discipline that is attempted. They want to buy their characters and equipment, sell their characters and equipment, and generally do exactly as they wish with their time in game. If they want to go OOC, they will. They want it THEIR way, and that is what Simu is giving them. Hence, my saying that the "masses" have won, and Celtic agreeing. :(

HarmNone

[Nakiro]

Maybe one of you should move this from the Staff and Policy Complaints folder to the Roleplaying folder where it would seem to belong.


As for OOC verses Amulet, I'm in agreeance that thinly veiled in-game OOCness is much, much more detrimental to a completely separate environment.

I am definitely OOC on OOC, but I do not take it in game. I think if I did though I'd get the soap quite a bit ';o)

[HarmNone]

I agree with Musty. For the most part, Platinum is probably better. However, I think that's what Prime should be, and isn't. I shall not honor the choice to let Prime die by joining Platinum.

HarmNone

[StrayRogue]

Heh, I meant in any game these days. Not just a Simu game.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Nakiro
Maybe one of you should move this from the Staff and Policy Complaints folder to the Roleplaying folder where it would seem to belong.

Actually, Nakiro, I think this discussion is exactly where it belongs. What is being discussed is not roleplaying, per se, but the lack of standards and enforcement by Simutronics staff.

HarmNone

[Artha]

I shall not honor the choice to let Prime die by joining Platinum.

There's no way Platinum's going to kill Prime.

What Simu really needs to do, I think, is give these snerts their own stomping ground and come out with a GS version of The Fallen.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Heh, I meant in any game these days. Not just a Simu game.

I understood what you meant, hon. I really don't think anybody is going to be developing games that are like roleplaying games once were for the exact same reason that Simu has chosen to let GemStone degrade into what it is today. That's not where the money is, unfortunately, and it's a lot easier to run a game that's a free-for-all.

HarmNone

[Tsa`ah]

That was pretty much the consensus of anyone who cared about the RP atmosphere.

Why should we pay more for policy enforcement? It wasn't about starting over. Some people were re-rolling freaks who started a character every 10-30 trainings. It wasn't about being the first to achieve this or that ... again. That's like being runner up to the runner up's assistant. No one was particularly upset over the large crowds. We were upset over slow implementation, holes in spell circles, delayed guilds ... pretty much just broken promises one after the next.

Take a look at the move to the web for crying out loud. We're going to implement ranged combat! Yay! My ranger had been religiously training in ranged for such a day. I had forsaken a number of spell trainings ... and when implemented, archery was on a premium only basis for the time being. I liked the perks promised with premium, and I signed up for them, but what about everyone else? How do you explain in character why only those who pay more can be archers? On top of that, archery sucked .... not much has changed in my opinion.

Premium, in the that stage of the game, was over priced and delivered little. I remained premium until the last price hike and dropped it. Plat, while advertised with good intentions, was more of an insult to someone who had dropped a few grand on the game already.

[Scott]

Originally posted by Artha

I shall not honor the choice to let Prime die by joining Platinum.

There's no way Platinum's going to kill Prime.

What Simu really needs to do, I think, is give these snerts their own stomping ground and come out with a GS version of The Fallen.

I really doubt that will help a whole lot. Some people invested many years in this game so they could push people around They wouldn't be able to stand joining a new game where they end up being a little guy like everyone else.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Artha

I shall not honor the choice to let Prime die by joining Platinum.

There's no way Platinum's going to kill Prime.

What Simu really needs to do, I think, is give these snerts their own stomping ground and come out with a GS version of The Fallen.

I didn't mean that Platinum might kill Prime, Artha. What I was saying was that Simu purposely let Prime fall to what it is.

As for giving the snerts their own place to "play", my guess is it won't work. Why? Because it's no fun to be a jackass with a bunch of other jackasses. Jackasses most enjoy their gaming experience when it can be had at the expense of someone else.

HarmNone

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Gemstone101

I really doubt that will help a whole lot. Some people invested many years in this game so they could push people around They wouldn't be able to stand joining a new game where they end up being a little guy like everyone else.

I'm in agreement and disagreement at the same time.

The game I play now and have such a blast doing it is The Lands of Light and Darkness (LLD). I'm comparing an apple to an orange here, but I think they're handling as Simu should be or should have done it. You have a policy enforced rp atmosphere in the Light, and a free-for-all in the Dark. They have sent players to the Dark for being disruptive.

I would, and I think other people would, come back to GS if they set up Shattered and let people take characters, or ban characters to that server.

While it wouldn't roll back the game play to Genie days, it would roll it back to a more tolerable time. It would also allow disruptive players to PWN and abuse any bug they found at their hearts content and the monetary loss to Simu could possibly turn into a larger gain.

I don't see it happening because it is a gamble that the owner is probably wary of taking.

Let's face it, kids get more entertainment out of harassing the players hard set to role-play than they do out of PWNing each other day in and day out. Eventually they would tire of Shattered and sneak back in to Prime, or just quit all together and move on to another game.

While the role-player or average gamer would win in this situation, Simu would be left supporting a novelty server with a player base less than half of what they do now.

[HarmNone]

I've peeked into LLD and have liked what I've seen. Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to devote to starting a new game. I'm determined, now that I've seen it, to give it a try, though. I think they're really trying to make something good. :)

HarmNone, a bit old to start over but willing to try

[HarmNone]

That's the problem I see with Shattered, Tsa`ah. If the snerts can't get their jollies by bugging the hell out of those who wish to roleplay, they're not going to stick around. Banish them to Shattered, and they're going to be furious because they ain't the biggest, baddest jackass on the planet. Either way, it ain't gonna work.

HarmNone

[Sorah]

Interesting little game there.....

[LordSagan]

I got the feeling the planning part was sorta overlooked.


You just described the Simutronics home office, HN. I think that's their motto.

Celtic nailed the issue on the head a bunch of posts back. When things went Unlimited, then all hell broke loose. I left Simu in '99, and one of the reasons I left (aside from wanted to actually get paid real money for the work I was doing...and I was salaried.) was that my "style" of GMing was being crushed out of existance. I was being jerked around in most cases. On one hand, they'd come to me and say "We want you to crack down on X. Any means necessary within policy." and then 2 weeks later come back and tell me to lighten up on something else, equally as bad, because it was upsetting the players. I mean for fuck's sake...my job was to enforce policy. Any player I enforced policy on was going to be upset. So if a player gets upset, we have to stop what is upsetting them. Therefore, stop enforcing policy. Then a group of players would get upset about something not being enforced, and they'd unleash me on it again. Vicious cycle...very stupid.

I saw the changes happening back then, and I didn't like the direction it was going, so I checked out. I sold out all of my characters and gear and washed my hands of the whole situation.

Seeing the shit that goes on in the game today is depressing for those of us who remember the game like it use to be. The majority of the people I see in game are one of two varieties...the snerts, who don't care about roleplay...and the roleplay nazis, who need to take that long pole out of their ass, lighten up and get over themselves. I don't know which group I despise more.

Unfortunately, Simu has lightened up to the point where both groups run rampant on the game...and there's no room for my style of play anymore.

[HarmNone]

I couldn't agree more, Sagan. What you have described as your feelings certainly echo mine. I've never been able to understand why in the hell anybody would bother to have a policy they did not intend to enforce. It boggles the mind.

As to the lack of planning, that is most definitely obvious. We're moving to the web, guys. Think we might have more players? Maybe we should hire more people? Perhaps we should organize a method by which the new players can be integrated into the game so they do not create havoc? Naaaaaah. Let's just DO IT!

Sadly, they did it. :(

HarmNone agrees wholeheartedly with Sagan

[Brattt8525]

[quote]Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Just look at how the mentality changed the moment AOL went unlimited.

Vultite and title were mile-stones. Now either is a matter of power/script hunting for x number of weeks.

I remember how special I felt when I titled. This was back in 1998, I thought I was the bomb! All my friends cheering me. Ahhh memories

Tara

[HarmNone]

Once upon a time, there were great parties thrown when one reached Lord/Ladyship. If one made Legend, there was a REAL shindig! Now, those accomplishments mean next to nothing, as they were probably gained either through the purchase of a character, or through scripting 24/7. It's really sad, as far as I'm concerned. What was once challenging, and fun, and a reason for great celebration is reduced to garbage, well suited to the snerts it serves.

Are there pockets of roleplay still alive in Elanthia? I'm sure there are. However, that is by no means the norm from what I saw. For a great majority, those who aren't asleep in public are actively scripting their way through levels...that's even more true now that the experience required to level has been increased.

Yeah, Tsa`ah. I remember my first vultite, as well. That sword and shield were both butt-ugly, but I was sure as hell proud of 'em! It's really hard to remember those times without feeling pretty darned despondent about what Elanthia has become.

HarmNone

*Edited to corral a rogue question mark*

[Edited on 8-7-2004 by HarmNone]

[Ilvane]

I don't know Harmnone. I have never legended(is that a word) a character yet, and when I do I'm going to be partying..:lol: I do have 5 titled characters though.:grin:

Roleplaying is out there, it's just that the idiots seem to have taken over to some extent. If the staff were more willing to take on the scripters and out of character activity, it would add a lot to the lands.

-A

[LordSagan]

There might be pockets of roleplay out there. What good does that do someone like me?

I play a lone wolf type of character. I don't make many friends...I hunt alone...I don't "socialize". I like wandering from place to place, and simply roleplaying with different people I meet (Read: steal from) along the way. You can't do that today. You wander around, you get seen picking someone's pocket...and their high level bot stands up and stuns you or blows your arm off, their low level bot runs off and reports you to the constable and their main character (who you have had *NO* interaction with so far) starts cursing you out and /WARN INTERACTing you.

Uh....no thanks?

It's all well and good that there are groups of people out there who have small groups that they roleplay with. That's not what made the game magic. What made the game magic is that you could go *anywhere* in the game and just jump into roleplaying with the people around you. That is simply not possible in the game the way it is today.

That is what is truly sad about the way the staff has let the game fall apart. Yes...the players caused this. However, the staff is solely responsible for letting it happen.


EDIT: I will give credit where credit is due here. I have found one group of non-old timers where you can randomly wander in and roleplay with. That would be a good number of the regular lockpickers in the East Tower. Kudos to you guys for keeping the spirit of the game alive. Kaiphos, Korenne, Falgrin, Fremie, and alot of others whose names I am forgetting here....keep it up. You guys are awesome.

[Edited on 8-7-2004 by LordSagan]

[Celtic]

You know...

While we're traipsing down memory lane...

My first major character, Orian, met Sagan during a fabulous RP that was going on around us. It was the original story about the black rings that were found one by one. Orian was in House Phoenix, and Sagan was the unofficial right hand man for the Poohbah. Neither of us wanted the rings to fall into the hands of those (GM played characters) who sought them. Sagan and Orian would meet in the alley behind the theatre to plot out their strategies. You talk about intense RP, that certainly ranked up there in my top 10.

But the biggest problem, and why there is no RP, is that the GMs that are in power want the game to go smoothly, they want no "masses" crying out.

They all read these boards, they also read the official ones. They also are gullible enough to believe that what they read is really the way things should be done.

Case in point, someone complained on these boards about being locked out. Told their side of the story, but the logs, the evidence against them was never revealed. Without checking, one of the SGMs asked me casually about the incident.

LOL

Once they read the logs, which they didn't bother to do prior to asking me about and instead, just react to a public post, they didn't talk to me anymore about what happened. But for them to ask me about it in the first place without checking, well, let's just say that was one of the building blocks on my side of the fence.

I hear people stating that this is a community. It used to be. Communities are built around rules and guidelines. Not just a fancy chat room that you can doo KEWL thinks in.

[HarmNone]

Heh. Community, eh? To tell the truth, it isn't a community I'd want to live in, nor is it a community I would wish to have a character live in. It's just not fun anymore.

HarmNone

[Apathy]

All this talk is making me want to go back to DR :(

As an AOL-invader myself, let me give you old(er) fogeys a bit of our perspective.

Sitting on the internet one night, probably just got done looking for naked pictures of Kelly from saved by the bell, maybe chatting around in a chatroom or talking to friends on IM. Going through AOL's lists of options out of boredom. Have AOL because you're too young to really know anything about the internet and how much AOL blows. Go to their games sections, see "Gemstone 3, Magic Mystery Fantasy Roleplay" or something to that extent. Decide to play. Have no idea WHAT THE HELL is going on. Try to find help and get put down for being "new and inexperienced." Figure that is the way things go, so grow up being a pain and not liking anyone who is titled. The wedge starts.

My first character was a giant warrior named Tiguris. You should have seen his training, it was nasty. I met someone named Konsious(I think sp?) who helped me out with the concept of roleplay and just playing the game. Then I made friends with an assassain type character (after chopping his friends arm off for poaching) named Zuchus. Switched to DR and lost contact with both of them, never looked back.

I'm playing GS again, enjoying it. But as of now I'm playing the graveyard shift so I have very little interaction with snerty folk, because there's very little interaction period.

[HarmNone]

I can imagine how that must have been, Apathy. With just a little planning before the fact, that kind of thing could have been avoided. :(

HarmNone

[Jazuela]

Perspective from non-Genie and non-AOL player:

Similar start as Apathy, sorta. I was a tarot reader on Prodigy Online with a comp account, in their New Age section (combination file libraries, forum, and chat). Saw Gemstone Beta Released! on the service's highlights page and it just seemed interesting.

We didn't have a fancy front end, we didn't know AOL was playing it, or that GEnie was playing it, and I don't remember if Compuserve had even joined up yet at that point. The beta was for Prodigy's Unix-based front end - very much like telnet, but with scrollback and ability to highlight words with colors.

I read some of the documentation, rolled up Jasminpetal the sylvankind empath, and struggled through the basic commands with some help from a few strangers.

If there was a Raging Thrak then, I didn't know about it. Most of the people were into the roleplay - there were few genuine snerts at the time. There were also few people at the time, heh - the game would crash if it got over 100 players. No River's Rest, no IceMule, and Teras Isle was a legendary mysterious place that if you were lucky, you'd learn about when the "big guys" like Thalior, Celtic, Manny, Artuero, Kree, came to the mainland to visit.

Back then, getting enchanted armor of ANY kind was a huge event. What the hell was his name, the halfling wizard who had a little house outside the Landing? He'd announce an auction - and we might pay 4000 silvers for 2x leathers. That was a HUGE amount of money - Ebay didn't exist yet <smirk>.

Even if we knew we couldn't afford to buy anything, we'd usually all show up anyway just to watch the excitement. No one talked about "show descriptions" or "ET" or "scripted" or "pinworn" back then. Everyone was too busy "being" their characters to come up with cutsey OOC terms for stuff.

I was in awe of some of the RP. Most of us who played from Prodigy were n awe of it. It was a magickal place for us.

Looking back now, having gone through the AOL shift, the web shift, and leaving for two other games, I notice that it wasn't REALLY that awesome. It was great - no doubt. The RP was MUCH more intense than it was when I left it.

But the game never supported roleplay. Even the littlest detail - the most mundane thing - parenthases around the "act" verb - is enough to convince me that the game fell short of being a RP game from its inception.

When people started calling it the "amunet" and the "VolnNet" and the this and that net - that's when I believe things really took a turn for the worst. Modernizing fantasy because it's too "inconvenient" to type out a fantasy-based sentence...

Many other things happened during that time that contributed to it, but that's just one of the things that stands out at the moment.

Then we were promised all sorts of wonderful things - and we stuck around because we wanted to be a part of Gemstone history. But those things never happened. And the admin continued promising us these things - and MORE! and the term "real soon now" became both the catch-phrase and the joke of the game at the same time.

Staffers worked like dogs to get things done for the game - and were continually held back, or ordered to stop this or that and do something else instead. Eventually most of those staffers left - and the current batch of staffers probably has no idea what it's like to do what was done back then. They're too busy making "scripted pinworn cloaks with UBUR show descs" that players can sell on e-bay or tell everyone to "TTM" if they wanna buy it.

At least - that was my perception of the game when I left it. Are you saying it's even worse now?

As far as other games go - there are other games that provide the relaxed, but supported RP that many of you sound like you're looking for. You want to not have to deal with pockets of "elitists" but you also want the opportunity to get into your character from a RP perspective. Check out www.topmudsites.com to see hundreds and hundreds of games, many of which would be suitable.

The one I play now would not be enjoyable for most of you, because it is a RPI - which means there's nothing relaxed about the roleplay at all. It's intense, intensive, and it's permanent death. But it is only one of a very few games that are like that - there are many others which would be much more entertaining to the majority of you here, if you really want to look for them.

[MrThorbizzle]

wtf, there haven't been 2000 people on since 1998

Do you even play HN?

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by MrThorbizzle
wtf, there haven't been 2000 people on since 1998

Do you even play HN?

Not anymore, Mr Thorbizzle. I haven't played in years; although, I still have very fond memories from the years I did play. Nostalgia is a difficult thing to get rid of, ya know? ;)

HarmNone

[MrThorbizzle]

if you spend so much time posting, might as well shell out 14.95 for an account

[HarmNone]

Nah. As others who no longer play have said, it's just not my game anymore. :shrug:

HarmNone is not the hack-and-slash type, but still enjoys the people associated with the game

[Slider]

There has been a big change to the game that I have noticed, but in truth, the biggest change i have seen has been since GS4's inception.

I was introduced to this game back when it went to AOL by a freind of mine who had been playing it for a few years at that point. (He and his wife, my baby sister, STILL fight over the bills he used to get :mad: ) Anyway, my introduction was fairly mild as he patiently showed me around, and told me about what sort of behavior was expected of folks back then.

But ever since GS4 went life, it seems like the sheer number of idiots in the game has gone up immensely. There have always been snerts in the game, at least as far back as i can recall, but for the most part, the GM's or the players themeselves tended to keep them in line. I don't even remember the number of times i've seen an older character in TSSW stun some idjit and give them a lecture on how certain behavior is unacceptable in the Landing.

Nowadays, it seems that the GM's aren't doing a whole lot to enforce policy at all, the behavior of the snerts has gotten FAR worse than it ever was, and sadly, most of the players that did seem to give a fuck, have bailed.

Case in point; the other day, i walked outside the North Gate, and ran into a confrontation between Tayre, Shisshio, Michaelous, and a few others and was promptly told first that Tayre was indiscriminantly killing folks. (he was not, quite the opposite i might add, and kudos to him for the way he handled it) But i was also offered 10k to kill him by Michaelous because Tayre was "being a coward and a bully and abusing his levels" by defending himself from, by my count, at least 4 people who where not even involved in the original conflict, but who continuously ambushed, imploded, or attacked him then ran back inside the gate. No attempt was made to RP by these people, no i take that back,Tayre did at least, but all i saw from the others was MAing, ACT abuse, and a whole lot of whining. And to cap it off? I reported Michaelous for the ACT abuse, (twice mind you, within 4 minutes) and got...nothing from Staff. No response, no "we'll look into it" nothing.

So, for me, the biggest changes that i have seen, have been from the start of GS4. And it is definatly not a change for the better.

[Edited on 9-12-2004 by Slider]

[HarmNone]

I think the snerts have won. This is the game they want to play. This is the game they pay to play. So, this is the game they're being given. I can't fault it, but I won't play it.

HarmNone

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

The snerts most certainly have NOT won. I hang out with a number of people who rp great, and I know many others who do as well.

It's there, and I'd even argue that the game isn't any worse now than it was years ago. There were then, and are now, very visible jack asses.

Deadward
Beautifulgreen
Greentide (I actually liked him)
Darckwizard has been a jackass for years

I'm tired and know I'm forgetting TONS of assholes and bitches. But I think you get my point.

Everyone remembers it being better, and in some senses, I'd say it was. In others, I'd say things are better now. But to say the snerts have won, i disagree. The game is what you make it. My close group of friends and acquantainces are the shit. They make the game fun to me.

[Chyrain]

I think Apathy made a great point about older folks getting on the new and inexperienced folks for being just that: new and inexperienced.

I was introduced to this game when I was 18 years old...so that was 7+ years ago. I had just broken up with my then boyfriend and this guy I knew online said "play this game, it'll get your mind off of it."

I knew absolutely nothing of RPG or MUDs. I never was heavy into the fantasy realm of things. I just got into this game one day, was shoved in front of a mentor and was taught how to talk. Then I was literally on my own in Icemule, trying to hunt rats and I randomly joined a group of folks who went to Landing. At 3 trains, I met someone who took the time to teach me what the hell was going on. I hadn't a solitary clue. That person literally taught me everything I know about the game, roleplay and all.

I don't know about you guys, but I see new kids walk into this game every day who have no idea what to do with their falchions. They don't understand the concept of NPCs vs Players. They don't get that it's not a chatroom. I was that kid 7.5 years ago. I would still be that kid now if someone didn't really hold my hand. There are only so much mentors can do.

I guess my point is that we can all sit around and bitch and moan about the state of affairs here, but what are any of us really doing to help the situation? There used to be a time when people weren't so jaded. Picking a newbie out of the crowd and hanging out with them and really teaching them something was a mutually satisfying experience. I dunno...those experiences for me were the most fun I've had in the game. Admittedly, I haven't picked up anyone in sea nymphs and raised them to be a great hunter or a great roleplayer. I had a good example of that, I should do better.

/end mushy afterschool special tone

[Edited on 9-12-2004 by Chyrain]

[Fallen]

After reading this thread, I find I am left with a somewhat sour taste in my mouth.

Every day, I head out into the lands and try to make Elanthia a better place. As corny as that sounds, I believe it to be the truth. I will actively seek out new interactions and new people with which to roleplay. Though there are exceptions, I hardly ever come across those characters who are grossly OOC. On those few distasteful moments that I do, I simply report the offender, and within moments either the activity ends or the character is pulled.

As had been said multiple times, roleplay must be sought out, encouraged, and fostered. One cannot simply stroll into Town Square and expect a small troupe of highly trained actors to perform for their entertainment.

I have been around a good long while, though most likely not as long as most of those involved in this conversation. I remember the good old days as well, yet I don't remember them as being the stellar roleplaying magnificence as you all seem to recall. No one ever approached my characters and attempted to engage them in fascinating feats of wonder.

It is each and every day that I find the glory days of Gemstone. In every new interaction, in every new mechanic, I see life being forcefully driven into Elanthia. Releases such as Tone, improved roleplaying verbs, new races, and countless new documents have added more to the game in the last 2 years than in compared to spans of 5 or more back in the "Good old days".

Sigh

I know I am ranting my ass off here, people, but my point is this; You can either lament over what is lost, and speak of days long gone while berating the current state of affairs... Or you can get out there, and try to make Elanthia live and breath every time your character strides into town.

The choice is yours.

[Numbers]

It's so unbelievably easy to ignore the snerts and idiots in this game that whenever people say that "This game has been taken over by idiots! It's not the same as it was! It's changed! CHANGED I tell you!" the only thing I can do is dismiss them as being a moron.

News flash... years and years ago, the RP SUCKED. The so called RP-heaven that people keep claiming the ICE age was? Not so much. They used fucking emoticons... ALL THE TIME. If you can manage to find some old logs from back then, you'll see what I'm talking about. Good god, one of the most famous characters was named "Xwingfighter."

When it showed up on AOL, and then Prodigy shortly thereafter? Yeah, the RP wasn't that great back then, either. Wanna know why? Because back then, people from AOL and Prodigy viewed GemStone as a glorified chat room. To most people during this time, AOL and Prodigy WAS the Internet, as the World Wide Web and regular Internet browsers hadn't gone mainstream yet.

Were there as many idiots? No, absolutely not. Because you had to pay $3 fucking dollars an hour to play, and not many people wanted to pay that much just to be the most hated people in the game. That's why the idiots of old are so infamous and remembered with hatred. Beautifulgreen, Edward, Greentide, and so on.

Are there a lot of idiots today? Sure. No question. I could rattle off a list of 10 names without a second thought. Are they easy to ignore? Absolutely. They tend to gravitate towards the same areas. They tend to piss off the same people over and over. That's how they get their kicks. Wanna know how to avoid it? Don't go to the areas where they hang out. Don't pay any attention to them whatsoever.

Is the RP any worse today than it was X number of years ago? I'd say it's about the same. If you know where to look for it, you should be able to find it pretty easily. I can tell you, though, that you're probably not going to find a shining beacon of RP at the dais in Illistim or the park in the Landing.

I don't get it.

I've been around since the AOL invasion and I'll tell you this, the RP level has been pretty much the same. People just look back with rose tinted glasses at the past. There was plenty of OOC around as far as I can remember and since then, to me, it's all stayed pretty constant.

- Arkans

[Warriorbird]

Eh. It is what you make of it. I consider online games sort've like LARPs. Active roleplayers are going to find what they want. Active hunters are going to find what they want. If you sit there in passivity and bemoan days long past... yeah, you shouldn't be playing. There's a lot of people to meet, help, hinder, profiteer off of, and have fun with.

It's just a lot of people where new to the game back then. It's completely different then because you're pretty much exploring everything for the first time. After a few years of playing, it become all very familiar and the shine has worn off. Despite all this, it's still the same game just not as mysterious.

- Arkans

[LordSagan]

When we RPed back in the days with people like "Xwing Fighter" we RPd to have fun...

People weren't uptight about shit. Yea, we used emoticons...so what, someone took the name Xwing Fighter...who cares? We all roleplayed the way we wanted to roleplay, and nobody nitpicked stupid shit. The thing was, there was no blatant discussion of OOC things in conversations...like football, the world series, music...things of that nature.

Today there's either no roleplay at all, and a bunch of snerts...or everyone who is so full of themselves that they criticize others for not "roleplaying", because it doesn't fit what their idea of roleplaying is.

Roleplaying has a different meaning to each person. Don't try and tell others how to roleplay, because their definition of it may be different than yours. There's a huge difference between someone who tries to roleplay the way they like...and someone who has an utter lack of any attempts at roleplay.

Yea...the game was much more fun back then...and there was alot more people who roleplayed as they saw fit.

[Warriorbird]

Eh. Before AOL your game was also comparatively tiny. Aging and growing pains are a very real thing to an online game... as this place partially proved... at the same time... everything was bright and new to you then...

I don't think discussing things makes it horrible unless you let it. I think it's sometimes rather refreshing.

[Slider]

True, back then the RP wasn't any better or worse than it is now. It is all in who you meet, and where you go. I have had a lot of fun RPing with people in the Landing, Ta'Illistum, hell, any city I've been in. And as far as the "RP nazis" go, i think that they are just as bad, if not worse than some of the blatantly OOC people out there. If it is within policy, then go for it. What is RP for you might not be RP for someone else, and vice versa. No one has the right (with the exception of the GM's...if they ever decide to exercise it) to tell you what is or is not acceptable RP.

What I was talking about wasn't so much the difference in RP, it was the difference in attitude of the people playing now. The things that at one time were only acceptable at the dinghy or the boulder are now taking place damn near every time I walk into the small park, or TSC, or the Dais in Illistum. People killing each other left and right, for no other reason than "I can". Idiots like Michaelous telling a GM they are "harassing him" and "you can't tell me what to do". If you think he is the exception, you are sadly mistaken. That attitude has become all to prevelent lately, and nothing seems to be being done to fix it. To use him as an example, the actions that got him pulled by the GM where not a recent thing, he had been doing it for months. And before him it was Solescape and a whole slew of others just like him.

And to really make it annoying, I see idiots like this randomly killing people all the time in the Landing, yet the one time I pound some little jackass for a)stealing from me, and b) attacking me when he is caught I get told by a GH that I am in the wrong to do so, and attacking anyone for any reason is wrong. WTF?!?! And yes, I do know that GH's have no power, and yes, I do know that he was wrong. But still, it annoys the crap outta me.

[Warriorbird]

Eh. From what I hear there were some idiots then too. Most people just won't admit they were. Having seen the returned Briars for example... it's a wonder he wasn't immediately locked out.

The grass may be greener for some people. Other than some issues with mechanics and the stupid current breakage notions I'm currently pretty happy though.

[Jazuela]

Something I will never forget - just a very little moment in my time playing...and something I doubt the current mentality of the game would allow to happen now:

I was in Hearthstone Manor. Sagan was there too. I don't remember what either of us were doing at the time, but I caught Sagan reach into my pocket. He didn't take anything, just caught the attempt.

I made a comment - very bold of me, since my character knew Sagan could lop her head off with one hand while drinking tea with the other...

He acted out putting his katana to my character's neck and made some remark. My character got the point - and commented about that as well..and then he let her go.

As a player, I thought it was hillarious. Imagine my crazy-ass sorcerer actually catching the legendary thief (and I do NOT mean level 50+ - I mean TRULY legendary - as in, truly remarkable, the people written up in history books, etc. etc. etc.)..groping around in my pockets. And then him getting all uppity about it..and my PC being all haughty and putting on a good front while in her mind she's praying he won't kill her right there on the spot..

It was funny shit. But it was also one of those serious hard-core RP moments, and Sagan's player did an excellent job of handling it as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand - there was that time when he e-waved during an invasion and sent half the people there to their deaths, and got locked out for a little while shortly after that - only to return as a staff member..

That's all OOC concern though, not really IC concern. ICly - other than that one moment during the invasion where everyone was thinking WTF!!!!

My brief interaction with Sagan was truly memorable, and again - not something I imagine could ever happen with "uber thieves" in Gemstone today.

(Well except maybe for Parkbandit but he doesn't count)

[Warriorbird]

And that sort've interaction still happens fairly constantly if you know where to look for it or haven't given up. I had a hell of a "Mexican standoff" in Illistim the other day, of all places.

[Shadya]

I think it comes down to .....you get what you give. I have a little path that won't take tips, and the first three months I played her in tsc she gave away over 3 million in silvers to newbies that wandered in there needing help. Not allot of silvers to some folks but to someone that doesn't have much...it was allot. Also helped them find voln or col and clothes or whatever else they were interested in. It takes allot of time and patients to help people. But what I got back was 10 fold. One of the millions was a gift to her from someone leaving the lands, a total stranger to her. But he noticed how many people she helps and said he knew it would go to the right folks. If you can show someone how to be a better rp'er great! It makes the game better for all of us. If they aren't interested move on. There are plenty of people out there that would love to have the help and interaction. All of the new friends you make along the way is nice too. When I don't feel like helping someone, I play Shadya..chuckle. Though she will help out in the guild or if someone dies. That's the extent of it though. Some would rather just power hunt with no rp. They pay for the game so why can't they do what they want with it. And some folks don't like to play the game but spend all their time posting on the boards. Do what makes you happy.

PS. I look at the boards once every other week or so for entertainment. Like standing in line at the grocery store reading the enquirer headlines. Morbid curiosity. I like to spend the little time I have playing the game.

[Mooinrogue]

Originally posted by LordSagan
EDIT: I will give credit where credit is due here. I have found one group of non-old timers where you can randomly wander in and roleplay with. That would be a good number of the regular lockpickers in the East Tower. Kudos to you guys for keeping the spirit of the game alive. Kaiphos, Korenne, Falgrin, Fremie, and alot of others whose names I am forgetting here....keep it up. You guys are awesome.


Just got directed to this by a good friend, and...well, wow. After a bit more than 2 solid years of GS (by far, a youngster, comparatively), I've heard my share of applause and condemnation as to how I play that mooing bastard. Some appreciate him, some appreciate how he's played. Plenty of people hate him, and I'm sure many hate how he's played as well.

It's a breath of fresh air to hear that he's a notable to you in terms of keeping RP alive. Both he and I are right in the thick of the snerts in the Landing, locked into hearing the babble on his amulet and seeing gratuitous stupidity every day in the Tower, and a lot of the time it feels as though there's no point to even bothering anymore.

I honestly had no idea that there were those who thought of him in this light. Thank you.

[Rhaindrop]

I don't think its about roleplaying at all, or about events, or about the numbers of players.

I truly think its about respect and the extreme lack of it (of course I left this game a while ago so maybe things have changed by now? ha ha).

I enjoyed my early days of playing, I was preunlimited AOL, but post ICE? There was actual respect for characters that you obviously should have respect for, characters were scared of thieves, I was accidentally placed on Teras Isle by some moron GM and I was almost in tears literally because Decain was talking about turning me into a slave.

Now, anyone with way too much time on their hands can level up to where they are untouchable and without the proper amount of respect for those that came before him, or for merchants, etc...there is no storyline.

IMHO

[Warriorbird]

Eh. More of the "Good old days." lines. Respect can still most certainly be commanded.

[Psykos]

Rhaindrop is now the offical queen of finding old threads and talking about them.

[Rhaindrop]

sweet. I've always wanted to be queen.


Sorry I'm dragging out dead horses, Nick is searching for some people from Maryland and I thought I'd start here..and we all know I can't keep my opinions inside.

Sorry again, I'll go back to lurking

[Nieninque]

Take no notice of Phaykos. Post away. That's the point of a discussion board. Better to have someone new posting about old threads they just found than Phaykos posting about....well, anything.

[Edited on 24-9-04 by Nieninque]