2-handed weapons vs 2 weapon combat

[Adhara]

My little monk (to be) currently uses two weapons. She's trained in brawling, 1 hand edged and two weapon combat. Her defense is very very low even with being doubled in dodge. I find it irritating and wonder if this is a viable long term path. A shield is out of the question so my next consideration would be two-handed weapons (while maintaining the brawling).

How would her defense look if I traded all the 1hand edged + 2 weapon combat for 2-handers? Same or different? I have no idea how defense is calculated in GS4 so any input would be appreciated. She's only 19 right now so if I'm going to change paths, might as well do the migration while she's still pretty young.

[StrayRogue]

You'd get more DS with a two-hander. TWCer's are only really viable after level 20 or so.

[Adhara]

Why do you say it becomes viable after 20? Heavier armor therefore can take the hits or....?

[StrayRogue]

Because your DS isn't utterly shit. You can wear armor, and you can usually hit hard enough to maim whatever you hunt in a single hit.

[Bobmuhthol]

TWC DS was recently raised.

Two-handed weapons are better though.

[Drew]

at 25 my two handed weapon DS isn't too far off that of OHE/shield users, as long as we are talking about physical attacks, bolt DS, well that's another story....

[StrayRogue]

Dodge is better for bolt DS than pretty much anything. I'd see about getting a decent 2-hander as well, Drew. Something enchanted above 5x.

[Chadj]

Lance > All.

'nuff said.

[AnticorRifling]

I agree lances rule, so do naginatas + tremors. 2h is better than TWC in my opinion unless it's an RP reason or if you've got 2 wickedly curved faenors or something like that.

[StrayRogue]

Get your lance back yet, Anticor?

[AnticorRifling]

Haven't logged in again so no.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<so do naginatas>>

No they don't. Halberds suck.

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<so do naginatas>>

No they don't. Halberds suck.

Naginata's + tremors and haste. 8x + knockdown + 1 second swing. Trust me they do the dirty work.

[Bobmuhthol]

I'll give you that.

[Chadj]

I'm totally getting a rechargable haste imbed at some point. Then I'm gonna totally pwn with a 1 second, 7x, flaring lance swing

Mwa ha ha.

[Anebriated]

have fun recharging that item every day...

[Chadj]

Originally posted by Elrodin
have fun recharging that item every day...

I have a really close friend that would let me borrow his character for recharging. He hasn't even logged in for a week, heh. So that wouldn't be a problem.

Also, I have about 40 orb gems, and I just sold 60.. so I'd be fine. I get em often enough.

[Anebriated]

youll get bored with it, itll become a chore.

[Chadj]

it'll be worth a 1 second swing with the best weapon possible.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Chadj
it'll be worth a 1 second swing with the best weapon possible. Wouldn't the best weapon possible be 10x with flares (or depending who you talk to, lots of weighting)?

[Bobmuhthol]

The best weapon ever was Warclaidhm's immolation short sword that couldn't kill my level 6 rogue.

[Anebriated]

get a ranger to imbue wiregrass, have your wizard friend imbed them. make alot at a time, use when needed. alot cheaper.

[Edaarin]

I really don't know many warriors that use two weapons. I think Gazda uses two whip blades, but he's the only high level warrior I can think of that chooses that form of combat.

From a mechanics standpoint...it really is not worth it to pour points into edged just to use two katars. Use two fist scythes, it's just as fast, and you're not giving up all that much on DF. But again, there's a much easier training path...

My level 13 warrior is 2x in Armor, CM, TWC, Brawl, PT, Dodge, and 1x in MOC with 10 ranks of climbing. No problems hunting yet, and I can use Voln Fu for undead and an ora claidhmore for the living without having to put weapons away. And it's somewhat fun.

[Drew]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Dodge is better for bolt DS than pretty much anything. I'd see about getting a decent 2-hander as well, Drew. Something enchanted above 5x.


I know you 3x in dodge Stay, what's your bolt DS like compared to your physical attack DS?

As far as the better 2 hander I've got a wizard "reserved" to enchant a katana to 6x as soon as they release the quest.

[Kitsun]

Originally posted by Chadj
it'll be worth a 1 second swing with the best weapon possible.

Hate to burst any bubbles but I'm pretty sure if you activate it from an imbed, you'll only be able to reduce down to 2 or 3. Wizards get more reduction because the formula incorporates Major Elemental ranks and Air Lore on self-cast.


Originally posted by Drew
As far as the better 2 hander I've got a wizard "reserved" to enchant a katana to 6x as soon as they release the quest.


I thought all the new katanas were weighted like claids. So they'd be 0x, weighted and unenchantable. Or do you know for sure they're being released without weighting?

I didn't see any other reason they were so special because the decidedly stupid training requirements to use one.

[Artha]

Hate to burst any bubbles but I'm pretty sure if you activate it from an imbed, you'll only be able to reduce down to 2 or 3.

He's a bard, he'll have song of tonis up too.

[Bobmuhthol]

Quest katanas are attuned. I'm not positive on weighting, but they'll most likely be unenchantable. I've heard the quest ones don't have weighting.

[Drew]

On the officials they've said quest katanas aren't weighted, hadn't heard anything about them being unenchantable...

[Bobmuhthol]

What's the point of enchanting it.. only the wizard would be able to use it since they're attuned.

[fallenSaint]

So someone roll up a wizard for the soul purpose of being able to swing a enchanted katana!

[Drew]

Well, if it is actually attuned I'll just have him enchant a bastard sword, the DFs aren't that different, but from what I heard katanas are much easier to aim...

If they are weighted, I can't think of too many situations in which I would use a katana over a claidhmore. Maybe if I did multi-ops or something like that the RT difference would matter more, but as it is I prefer a claid I think.

[Artha]

The only problem with claidhs is that they're almost always 0-1x. Sure, they hit like a ton of bricks...but they have to hit to do that.

edit: Of course, if the katanas aren't enchantable, they're basically worthless.

[Edited on 8-6-2004 by Artha]

[Drew]

yeah my point was more along the lines of if they have the crit weighting they won't be enchantable, so why not use a claid? If they don't but are attuned, well... I don't want to sink my money into something I will never recoup any of it from, if that's the case I will probably just get a bastard sword brought up to 6x, or maybe a maul.

[Bobmuhthol]

Bastard swords are actually better one-handed, katanas better two-handed. They are, though, highly similar.

[Adhara]

My monk (warrior) uses a combination of wakizashi (short sword), fist-scythe and katars depending on armor and encumbrance. I'm very very happy with the performance of katars on heavier armors so the 1h-edged was worth it to me. This choice of going TWC was made for RP reasons but the defense has me really frustrated.

For the same RP reasons I refuse to use a shield. I will go 2-hander but only with a quarterstaff/bo-stick. I haven't looked into their performance yet and I'm kind of scared to...but as long as they're not really awful weapons, I'd be willing to go with average performance for the sake of RP.

Now to find a 4x or better blessable bo-stick....

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Artha
The only problem with claidhs is that they're almost always 0-1x. Sure, they hit like a ton of bricks...but they have to hit to do that.

edit: Of course, if the katanas aren't enchantable, they're basically worthless.

[Edited on 8-6-2004 by Artha]

You forget cman wspec1. 5 ranks in wspec1 + 1x claid = 3x claid. Any warrior trained decent can hit most things with a 3x weapon, might have to guild them down first but it's doable.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Adhara
For the same RP reasons I refuse to use a shield. I will go 2-hander but only with a quarterstaff/bo-stick. I haven't looked into their performance yet and I'm kind of scared to...but as long as they're not really awful weapons, I'd be willing to go with average performance for the sake of RP.Quartersticks are really awful weapons, if you're going to be using them on their own (they do have situational uses). I would be hugely surprised if you managed to do half as much damage per unit time as you do with TWC brawling.

You seem to be focused on turning monk. If you are, I don't see the point in starting up the character already as a warrior. Why start a new class if you're going to skip the early parts?

[StrayRogue]

Several points:

Yeah, the only marginally decent quarter staffs in the game are the translucent alloy ones. The ones that are masterfully weighted and 4x.

Claidhs over Katana's: As far as I'm aware, most katana's are naturally weighted, like Claidhs are. There are several reasons why each weapon is superior to the other. Katana's are excellent for qstrike, claidh's hit harder.

Enchant: If they aren't enchanted, they are indeed useless. The reason why I don't use a claidh is the lack of DS, not AS.

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
The reason why I don't use a claidh is the lack of DS, not AS, and because I'm a muffin.

I knew it!

[StrayRogue]

Bah, Chadj, why did you remove your post.

Rifling!!!!!!!!!

[Edited on 6-8-04 by StrayRogue]

[Soulpieced]

Haste and Tonis do not stack. The lowest RT you can get for a base 5 weapon is 2 seconds.

[Adhara]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Quartersticks are really awful weapons, if you're going to be using them on their own (they do have situational uses). I would be hugely surprised if you managed to do half as much damage per unit time as you do with TWC brawling.


Looks like you're right about that... I couldn't find the damage factors anywhere so I set about to calculate them myself. I didn't test against all the armors yet but just looking at the DF against robes is depressing. They are by far the worst two-hander by the looks of it and I don't imagine it would get better as the armor gets heavier.



You seem to be focused on turning monk. If you are, I don't see the point in starting up the character already as a warrior. Why start a new class if you're going to skip the early parts?

I came up with a background story I was so excited about that I simply couldn't wait for monks to be released. Simple as that. Now I have a decision to make. I can either go on with TWC until it becomes unbearable, I can stop playing her altogether until unarmed combat is released or I can switch her to something that fits her personality and background less (like a claidh or any big sword) hoping that no one will remember her swinging it when monks are released.

I'm not liking option 3 much. So far, unless you guys come up with an idea I haven't thought of, it looks like it will be option 1 until the frustration exceeds the fun. At that point I will switch to option 2.

[Bobmuhthol]

Quarterstaff .450 .325 .350 .175 .100 5 C 20/140


<<They are by far the worst two-hander>>

Runestaves are worse.

[Edited on 8-6-2004 by Bobmuhthol]

[Drew]

With crit-randomization two-weapons do have a bit of an advantage over two-handers. If you are able to constantly get rank 9 crits on the head, but are having them reduced to rank 5 sometimes because of the randomization (rank 5 slash crits don't kill, rank 5 puncture and crush do, I may be off about which type it is, but I know sometimes I'll miss a kill with my claid, I think it's on slashes) you get another shot at killing them.... Not a huge advantage but if it's the difference between life or death could be worth something.

[jafo]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Claidhs over Katana's: As far as I'm aware, most katana's are naturally weighted, like Claidhs are.

This is a popular myth, not sure what the origin is other than wishful thinking perhaps. Newstyles auctioned on the spitfire happened to have heavy crit weighting that was assessable. Nothing "natural" about it.

[StrayRogue]

By natural I mean that all the new katana's come with that amount of weighting as standard.

[Artha]

This is a popular myth, not sure what the origin is other than wishful thinking perhaps. Newstyles auctioned on the spitfire happened to have heavy crit weighting that was assessable. Nothing "natural" about it.


Any crit weighting is assessable.

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Artha
Any crit weighting is assessable.

Not on claids....

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Drew
With crit-randomization two-weapons do have a bit of an advantage over two-handers. If you are able to constantly get rank 9 crits on the head, but are having them reduced to rank 5 sometimes because of the randomization (rank 5 slash crits don't kill, rank 5 puncture and crush do, I may be off about which type it is, but I know sometimes I'll miss a kill with my claid, I think it's on slashes) you get another shot at killing them.... Not a huge advantage but if it's the difference between life or death could be worth something.

That's why you learn percision.

[Artha]

That's why you learn percision.

Precision doesn't work with ambushing.


Not on claids....

wtf

[Edited on 8-19-2004 by Artha]

[Bobmuhthol]

Some claidh weighting isn't fucked up. Mostly you can't assess it/it comes out wrong.