Meanwhile in other news, Transgender female (read: DUDE) wants to fight women in UFC

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

I have absolutely nothing against the LGBT community and think they should live just as miserably married and/or divorced as the rest of us with all the benefits and pain of everyone else. But I still think this is cheating....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1001570/Transgender-MMA-fighter-wants-fight-women-UFC.html

Fallon Fox is a female transgender MMA fighter who has set her sights on fighting women in the UFC.

Fallon Fox was born a man. In 2006, when she was 30, she had gender reassignment surgery.

Fox is now a MMA fighter for the Championship Fighting Alliance (CFA). Her record is 2 and 0 after destroying Ericka Newsome Saturday night in 39 seconds with a vicious knee to the head.

[Kastrel]

I'm curious about the status of her HRT. If she is currently taking standard testosterone blockers and estrogen supplements (and has been for a while), her ability to maintain and gain muscle would diminish to that of a genetic female, or at least close enough, which is probably one of the most significant elements in the "unfairness". Her skeletal structure would not retroactively change though, and that could offer a significant advantage, and if she had SRS at 30, she probably didn't start taking hormones until at least 20, so she would definitely have full male skeletal structure.

Difficult situation. I'd say in this scenario, she probably does have an unfair advantage and should be disqualified. The downside is that she would be at a huge disadvantage in a men's UFC organization due to the female hormones. There really is no fair place for her.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

I'm curious about the status of her HRT. If she is currently taking standard testosterone blockers and estrogen supplements (and has been for a while), her ability to maintain and gain muscle would diminish to that of a genetic female, or at least close enough, which is probably one of the most significant elements in the "unfairness". Her skeletal structure would not retroactively change though, and that could offer a significant advantage, and if she had SRS at 30, she probably didn't start taking hormones until at least 20, so she would definitely have full male skeletal structure.

Difficult situation. I'd say in this scenario, she probably does have an unfair advantage and should be disqualified. The downside is that she would be at a huge disadvantage in a men's UFC organization due to the female hormones. There really is no fair place for her.

This could be the start of the Transgender league for the UFC. It will take a while though. It took Rhonda Rousey and a shitload of time for UFC to even officially get the women's thing going and everyone was all happy, I am going to laugh my ass off if this bites all that in the ass. I would like to see this transgender chick/dude fight Cyborg though.

[Tgo01]

Difficult situation. I'd say in this scenario, she probably does have an unfair advantage and should be disqualified. The downside is that she would be at a huge disadvantage in a men's UFC organization due to the female hormones. There really is no fair place for her.

Life isn't fair, this would just be one of those things she has to live with.

[Buckwheet]

Rubber match it between her and Rhonda.

[Kastrel]

Life isn't fair, this would just be one of those things she has to live with.

In this case (and its one of the rare ones when it comes to this topic), I would agree.

[Methais]

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk209/Kabong30/worf-startrek-facepalm.gif

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

If it's going to be up to the state athletic commission, well then, this will entirely depend on the whatever states athletic commissioner and their tolerance of LGBT related issues. So it could actually wind up being some good solid UFC related drama. This isn't like juicing or anything. The dude just has an innie instead of an outie.

[Taernath]

The link wasn't clear about which fighter was which, and because these types of threads are useless without pics...

4682

I'd hit it... with a boxing glove.

[AnticorRifling]

Birth junk fights birth junk, feelings not evaluated.

[Latrinsorm]

If it's going to be up to the state athletic commissionI winced.
Birth junk fights birth junk, feels not evaluated.I winced more.

[Kerranger]

Birth junk fights birth junk, feels not evaluated.

This seems to be the prevalent sentiment among women fighters when asked about the subject also. They might find out that it will be hard as hell to get anyone to sign on the line to fight this girl in any serious org. Maybe she can keep getting some backyard bumfights, though.

[Jarvan]

More power to her. She obviously got the gender change for the right reason, and only afterward realized she could 'ride it" for all it's worth.

In all honesty tho, I would be more impressed if she still wanted to fight in the men's league.

[4a6c1]

Jarvan Jarvan JARVAAAN. Who are you to decide the *right reasons* for getting a gender change?

[Warriorbird]

Jarvan Jarvan JARVAAAN. Who are you to decide the *right reasons* for getting a gender change?

A transgender male, obviously. Or a psychologist.

[dakini]

She's not a dude, she's a dudette.

And if she's undergone the physical transition then there's not necessarily a good reason to exclude her.

[Tgo01]

She's not a dude, she's a dudette.

And if she's undergone the physical transition then there's not necessarily a good reason to exclude her.

I'll admit I'm not an expert in gender changes but I'm pretty sure a person would retain their muscle mass during the transition.

[Kastrel]

She's not a dude, she's a dudette.

And if she's undergone the physical transition then there's not necessarily a good reason to exclude her.

That is not entirely true. Virtually any other scenario, and I would be defending her, but in his case, she has a physical advantage. Depending on how old she was when she began taking hormone replacement, there is only so much you can "change back", plus surgery. In the end, she has a different skeletal structure that may be giving her an advantage over genetic females.


I'll admit I'm not an expert in gender changes but I'm pretty sure a person would retain their muscle mass during the transition.

For a time, but not for long. Testosterone encourages the body to gain and retain muscle mass . . . its part of why you don't normally see 8 year old kids completely stacked, even the athletic ones. Estrogen does as well, but to a far lesser degree, and it encourages the body to gain and retain fat, leaving less "resources" to go around. Not to say that women cannot become incredibly muscular and have high muscle strength, but for an equivalent amount of "gain", they need to put in more effort (just as a male who just barely doesn't work out enough slowly loses muscle mass, the threshold for that is higher with less testosterone). You'd find that prepubescent children would probably gain and retain muscle mass at about equal rates, regardless of gender, because that is the primary factor that is changing things.

Either way, if she is taking testosterone blockers and estrogen, while not changing bone structure and certain other permanent changes, this muscle mass is a permanently fluxuating aspect of human physiology, and would over time either require she put in significantly more effort than before to maintain, or would slowly begin to approximate the gross musculature of a woman her size who put in equal amounts of workout time. The permanent advantages that would linger would be height and body size, particularly skeletal, notably feet and hands. She has long, long since transitioned, a decade-ish, which is more than enough time for her muscle-mass to balance out.

[Amber]

It used to be that female athletes competing in the Olympics had to undergo genetic testing to verify that they were XX and not XX/XY mosaics, or even XY competing as female. Sometime around 2000, this was changed so that people who've undergone sexual reassignment can compete with the gender they now physically identify with, as long as they've been on hormone therapy for a certain amount of time. I find it sort of unfair that someone genetically XY can compete as a female while females with the XX/XY genotype can't.

Anyway, I figure if the Olympics says a female who used to be male can compete as a female, then probably this person should be allowed to fight as a female. I don't know much about professional (or unprofessional for that matter) fighting, but aren't there weight and size categories so people are somewhat physically comparable?

[Kastrel]

Interesting information. I was unaware of that.

[dakini]

That is not entirely true. Virtually any other scenario, and I would be defending her, but in his case, she has a physical advantage. Depending on how old she was when she began taking hormone replacement, there is only so much you can "change back", plus surgery. In the end, she has a different skeletal structure that may be giving her an advantage over genetic females.
That would depend on a lot of things I think. I would generally assume that there are weight classes, so even if she's taller and bigger than an average woman, she would still be fighting the bigger women in the sport. If there aren't weight classes, there probably should be. But really other than size, if she's fully transitioned she should be about the same.

[Kastrel]

That would depend on a lot of things I think.

I think this is probably the number one reason why its a difficult situation. Because no two individuals are the same, it almost calls for a "make the decision individually" kind of policy. But in my experience, any time something is such a grey area that it requires judgement on an individual basis, it ends up shifting towards just "no".

[dakini]

I think this is probably the number one reason why its a difficult situation. Because no two individuals are the same, it almost calls for a "make the decision individually" kind of policy. But in my experience, any time something is such a grey area that it requires judgement on an individual basis, it ends up shifting towards just "no".
If she's fully transitioned and has been taking hormones for several years, she's probably about the same. I looked up her stats as well (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Fallon-Fox-100599) and she's not really exceptionally tall or heavy (5'7"/144lbs) so it's not like she has a size advantage on her opponents. The two matches she has listed include one quick knockout and one TKO due to injury. If you look up both of her opponents in those fights, neither of them has a win. So it's not really clear that she has any advantage at all or if she's just fought terrible fighters so far (alternately, she could actually be skilled and stuff).

[Jarvan]

She's not a dude, she's a dudette.

And if she's undergone the physical transition then there's not necessarily a good reason to exclude her.

So what you are saying is it would be ok for the 4th place 100 m dash finisher at the Olympics to change genders, and compete and obliterate the women 4 years from now.

Make sense.


It used to be that female athletes competing in the Olympics had to undergo genetic testing to verify that they were XX and not XX/XY mosaics, or even XY competing as female. Sometime around 2000, this was changed so that people who've undergone sexual reassignment can compete with the gender they now physically identify with, as long as they've been on hormone therapy for a certain amount of time. I find it sort of unfair that someone genetically XY can compete as a female while females with the XX/XY genotype can't.

Anyway, I figure if the Olympics says a female who used to be male can compete as a female, then probably this person should be allowed to fight as a female. I don't know much about professional (or unprofessional for that matter) fighting, but aren't there weight and size categories so people are somewhat physically comparable?

Apparently it makes sense to the Olympic committee as well.

[Warriorbird]

All Jarvan bashing aside this transgender lady hasn't really fulfilled the Olympic requirements yet. All of the transgender Olympians have been under intense scrutiny by Olympic officials. She hasn't.

[Drew]

I don't know much about professional (or unprofessional for that matter) fighting, but aren't there weight and size categories so people are somewhat physically comparable?

Yes but a man at 135 would decimate a woman at 135 (the best man vs the best woman obviously). It would not be a fair fight.


To expand, male bones are longer in the arms and heavier in the arms and hands especially. The jaw is thicker and the forehead/brow is also thicker. These are all extremely important in combat sports, they allow a person of the same size to deliver a heavier blow and to take a heavier blow.

[Androidpk]

Yes but a man at 135 would decimate a woman at 135 (the best man vs the best woman obviously). It would not be a fair fight.


This is not a universal truth.

[Drew]

This is not a universal truth.

I'd be interested in any evidence of a top woman ever beating a top man (and not some Riggs vs King thing with a 50 year old out-of-shape never-was vs a woman in her prime) in almost any physical sport, much less a fight sport. I love watching Ronda Rousey fight but if you gave her ten matches against Dominick Cruz I'd be shocked if she won more than one.


EDIT: They've done this a few times in tennis and other than the Riggs vs Billie Jean King match which I mentioned before was a 55 year old man against one of the best pros the men always win and easily. Conners played Navritilova where he only got 1 serve to her 2 and she got some of the double court to hit into and he beat her. Some guy who was like 200th in the world played the Venus and Serena Williams and beat both of them easily. Joakim Noah's dad (a former pro who wasn't that great) played Justine Henin when he was in his mid 40s and she was in her mid 20s and in her prime and beat her.

[Kerranger]

Watch the fights. Fallon decimates those girls. There was nothing fair about it. It was a dude beating up a couple of chicks.

[Tgo01]

Watch the fights. Fallon decimates those girls. There was nothing fair about it. It was a dude beating up a couple of chicks.

Yeah, I'm not sure how someone can watch the videos and think it's a fair fight. In the video linked in the first page the other woman was hitting Fallon over and over again and Fallon didn't even seem to bat an eye. Meanwhile Fallon knees her once and she's down.

[Savrin]

This is not a universal truth.

If it were a comparison of the same weight, fitness, skill, level of aggression and mental preparedness I'd have to agree with Drew that the male would have an unfair advantage.

[dakini]

So what you are saying is it would be ok for the 4th place 100 m dash finisher at the Olympics to change genders, and compete and obliterate the women 4 years from now.

Make sense.

No, I'm saying that someone who has gender identity disorder who undergoes the transition to their true gender (which typically involves spending at least a year living as their non-birth gender, taking hormones for another year or so then slowly beginning to have the appropriate surgeries) should be able to live as a member of their actual gender, which includes competeing in sports with other members of their gender as appropriate.

There's nothing that says this woman is astounding. So far her record shows that she's faced two pretty weak opponents and she demolished them, but so has everyone else who fought them.

[dakini]

All Jarvan bashing aside this transgender lady hasn't really fulfilled the Olympic requirements yet. All of the transgender Olympians have been under intense scrutiny by Olympic officials. She hasn't.
I was not aware that UFC was an Olympic event.

[dakini]

Watch the fights. Fallon decimates those girls. There was nothing fair about it. It was a dude beating up a couple of chicks.
Once again, she's not a dude.

And once again, the women she fought and beat have also never won a professional match. That could be how all of their fights go.

[Warriorbird]

I was not aware that UFC was an Olympic event.

It isn't. Simultaneously a lot of lesser promotions have done shady stuff with hormones. I'd be wary if I was in a serious female UFC fighter's camp.

[dakini]

It isn't. Simultaneously a lot of lesser promotions have done shady stuff with hormones. I'd be wary if I was in a serious female UFC fighter's camp.
You know it's also possible to test hormone levels, right? It's not especially difficult and while I haven't seen an article about this, (a google search turns up a bunch of transphobic editorial type articles, which aren't especially enlightening), that doesn't mean that some sort of tests haven't been done.

[crb]

in competitive sports, if you have a Y chromosome, you compete with men. Period. Imagine the jokes of the olympics if the rule was anything otherwise. China would force trannies to compete just for an advantage.

True story, not everyone is identical, the same, or equal. If you want to be special or different it may not all be unicorns and rainbows, you may preclude yourself from some things.

[crb]

Once again, she's not a dude.

And once again, the women she fought and beat have also never won a professional match. That could be how all of their fights go.

True story, people with XY chromosomes are genetically male, no matter what they have between their legs, no matter what pills they may be popping, no matter how much silicone installed on their chest.

Science, solving unnecessary invented social problems since 1698.

[Tgo01]

Seems some people just want to support her so they don't look, uhh, what's the term for if you hate transgender people?

[Androidpk]

Transphobia. Trans-misogyny. Take your pick.

[dakini]

in competitive sports, if you have a Y chromosome, you compete with men. Period.
What if you're androgen-insensitive and therefore, despite your XY chromosomes, you naturally don't have a penis or testicles and you develop as a woman?


China would force trannies to compete just for an advantage.
I'm not sure if you're aware, but "tranny" is pejorative.

[Tgo01]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but "tranny" is pejorative.

I've never hurt my car's feelings before in my life.

[dakini]

True story, people with XY chromosomes are genetically male, no matter what they have between their legs, no matter what pills they may be popping, no matter how much silicone installed on their chest.

Science, solving unnecessary invented social problems since 1698.
Cool story, bro. You know that biology isn't the only science, right? And you know that genetics don't determine everything about a person, right?

It might be too much to assume that you know the difference between sex and gender, but there are people who study people whose biological sex does not match their physical gender and they find (using science!) that these things don't always correspond.

[dakini]

I've never hurt my car's feelings before in my life.
Well, calling your car's transmission a trannie is fine. :P

Calling a transgendered person that is generally considered deeply insulting. As is mis-gendering (e.g. how some people are insisting on referring to this woman as a "he" or a "dude").

[Androidpk]

I don't find the term tranny insulting. Same with dude. I call plenty of chicks, dudes.

[dakini]

I don't find the term tranny insulting. Same with dude. I call plenty of chicks, dudes.
Not everyone within a group feels the same way about every pejorative term applied to said group.

[Warriorbird]

You know it's also possible to test hormone levels, right? It's not especially difficult and while I haven't seen an article about this, (a google search turns up a bunch of transphobic editorial type articles, which aren't especially enlightening), that doesn't mean that some sort of tests haven't been done.

I wouldn't call myself particularly transphobic. I have not a problem with them competing Olympically. I actually think non UFC fight promotions might be a bad idea for transfolks in general because they are a bad idea for plenty of traditionally gendered athletes who cheat with hormones too. And current levels testing does not mean shady doings have not occurred (you can ask the people who spent years chasing Lance Armstrong about that.)

[dakini]

I wouldn't call myself particularly transphobic. I have not a problem with them competing Olympically. I actually think non UFC fight promotions might be a bad idea for transfolks in general because they are a bad idea for plenty of traditionally gendered athletes who cheat with hormones too. And current levels testing does not mean shady doings have not occurred (you can ask the people who spent years chasing Lance Armstrong about that.)
Was Armstrong cheating with hormones or with other performance enhancing drugs? I think that hormone testing should be reasonably simple in comparison to the latest drug designed for cheating at a sport.

[Warriorbird]

Was Armstrong cheating with hormones or with other performance enhancing drugs? I think that hormone testing should be reasonably simple in comparison to the latest drug designed for cheating at a sport.

He cheated with both.

[Jayvn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uQlB99WCuk

[Jayvn]

Good ole Andy Kaufman...

[Savrin]

Cool story, bro. You know that biology isn't the only science, right? And you know that genetics don't determine everything about a person, right?

It might be too much to assume that you know the difference between sex and gender, but there are people who study people whose biological sex does not match their physical gender and they find (using science!) that these things don't always correspond.

I'm no doctor so I won't pretend to be able to argue the ins and outs of transgender changes.

At a glance I would guess that there was a weight disparity between the fighters in favor of the loser though. That in and of itself suggests something.

Also, Fox spent a large number of years being a male, with all the perks towards developing herself physically, that that entails.

[dakini]

He cheated with both.
I haven't actually been able to find anyone say what substances he was using. Do you happen to have a link for that?

Granted, if someone is doping with hormones, it doesn't have to be the transgendered fighter. Anyone could do it. If she's had bottom surgery, it's not like she'd be generating male hormones on her own (and if she didn't have bottom surgery then there would be a nice target for her opponents).

[Kastrel]

Also, Fox spent a large number of years being a male, with all the perks towards developing herself physically, that that entails.

To me, this photo showing the difference in the two "Girl's" definition is pretty telling.

4742

You can definitely see a difference, but you can also see how she looks nothing like a normal male UFC fighter. Thats why her position is so precarious; she would be at an unfair disadvantage in men's UFC and an unfair advantage in women's UFC. She has a generally masculine appearance and facial structure, but has the musculature of an incredibly fit and built woman, which is not the same as an incredibly fit and built man.

As I said before, she has some advantages that were elaborated on (limb and skull bone density and structure) which would be very useful advantages in this sport. But with as many years as she has been on HRT, any muscle-growth advantages are likely minimal at best. Anyone who has worked out and then slipped on their routine for a year knows that, and she transitioned 7 years ago minimum. I've known a great many transgendered individuals, and was very good friends in person from before their transition until several years after, and while it may take a little while, certainly a few years, the muscle/fat distribution of the body changes. One friend of mine, the first time I could honestly say she looked female was when I realized that she had gained weight, but it was female-distribution weight, not male.

As for determining things by genetics alone, thats irrelevant. Men and women's sports are divided up due to three reasons I can think of; sexism, some sort of respect for locker-room privacy, and an unfair physical advantage. The first is irrelevant, the second can be worked around, and the third is really the most important in my opinion. XY vs XX is irrelevant if the physical advantages conferred by XY chromosomes are mitigated. And in this case, given her age when she transitioned, I would say they are not. She has an advantage. Those changes in bone structure and density are irreversible and occur gradually from the onset of puberty to around 20. If she had transitioned at 10 or even 14, I'd say it would be perfectly fair. But she didn't. With that said, she has a lot less of an advantage than most people would assume. You can take one look at her and realize she looks nothing like a normal male UFC athlete in terms of bulk and build. She is no longer "just some guy" running amok in the girl's league.

[dakini]

I'm no doctor so I won't pretend to be able to argue the ins and outs of transgender changes.

At a glance I would guess that there was a weight disparity between the fighters in favor of the loser though. That in and of itself suggests something.
I'm not sure I follow here. You're saying that it looks like the loser weighed more? I posted a link to Fox's stats and fight record a while back and I seem to recall that her opponents were a bit ligher (maybe 10 lbs?), but I'd have to double check.


Also, Fox spent a large number of years being a male, with all the perks towards developing herself physically, that that entails.
Then she spent the last 6 years without the required male hormone balance to maintain and build muscle in the same way as men do and instead has had the same hormone balance as women. The perks of being male in working out come from testosterone levels. If she doesn't have a male testosterone level, she doesn't have this advantage.

[Latrinsorm]

I'd be interested in any evidence of a top woman ever beating a top man (and not some Riggs vs King thing with a 50 year old out-of-shape never-was vs a woman in her prime) in almost any physical sport, much less a fight sport. I love watching Ronda Rousey fight but if you gave her ten matches against Dominick Cruz I'd be shocked if she won more than one.


EDIT: They've done this a few times in tennis and other than the Riggs vs Billie Jean King match which I mentioned before was a 55 year old man against one of the best pros the men always win and easily. Conners played Navritilova where he only got 1 serve to her 2 and she got some of the double court to hit into and he beat her. Some guy who was like 200th in the world played the Venus and Serena Williams and beat both of them easily. Joakim Noah's dad (a former pro who wasn't that great) played Justine Henin when he was in his mid 40s and she was in her mid 20s and in her prime and beat her.Tennis doesn't have weight classes, though. If your namesake Andrew Noah has 30 pounds more muscle than Mmse. Henin, of course he's going to win. Plus those Noahs all cheat.

And while the bone thing you mentioned certainly sounds like it has merit, nobody measured Brock Lesnar's hands and said "okay, you can only fight maddened gorillas because we don't want to see Mir's face get turned into hamburger". Granted, this is because everyone wanted to see Mir's face get turned into hamburger, but you see my point, right?

[Savrin]

You can definitely see a difference, but you can also see how she looks nothing like a normal male UFC fighter. Thats why her position is so precarious; she would be at an unfair disadvantage in men's UFC and an unfair advantage in women's UFC. She has a generally masculine appearance and facial structure, but has the musculature of an incredibly fit and built woman, which is not the same as an incredibly fit and built man.

My answer is...

1. Life is about choices.

2. Life isn't fair.

3. Sacrifices have to be made for the things you place the highest priority on.

[Kastrel]

My answer is...

1. Life is about choices.

2. Life isn't fair.

3. Sacrifices have to be made for the things you place the highest priority on.

And if you've read my posts, you know I agree. She can't compete in men's UFC, probably because of liability issues and it would be back-tracking on her life decision. Competing in women's UFC is a PR nightmare and risks her being labeled as a cheater, or worse, being banned entirely. She made her decision, but she wants to follow an additional interest. It may not be realistic. She wants to be involved in a very gender segregated sport, and while I am entirely in support of people being treated as the gender they wish to be, there is also a matter of sportsmanship to consider. Is it properly respectful to allow her in? Yes, it is to her. Is it fair to the other competitors? In this case, no. If they rule in her favor, by all means. But you can never guarantee such things.

[Savrin]

I'm not sure I follow here. You're saying that it looks like the loser weighed more? I posted a link to Fox's stats and fight record a while back and I seem to recall that her opponents were a bit ligher (maybe 10 lbs?), but I'd have to double check.

Yeah, to me the loser looked like she weighed more. I must have missed your posting of the stats. I didn't see it in the video so I was going off of perception. One of those perceptions is that she carries herself forward with good posture which goes hand in hand with someone who can hit, and hard.


Then she spent the last 6 years without the required male hormone balance to maintain and build muscle in the same way as men do and instead has had the same hormone balance as women. The perks of being male in working out come from testosterone levels. If she doesn't have a male testosterone level, she doesn't have this advantage.

Okay, but what about the 20 years before that? As I recall, she was into MMA before she had the sex change. Would she loose everything she managed to gain physically just because she was taking estrogen/whatever for six years? Or would she be comparatively ahead of the power curve for any naturally born woman in her age group?

[Savrin]

And if you've read my posts, you know I agree. She can't compete in men's UFC, probably because of liability issues and it would be back-tracking on her life decision. Competing in women's UFC is a PR nightmare and risks her being labeled as a cheater, or worse, being banned entirely. She made her decision, but she wants to follow an additional interest. It may not be realistic. She wants to be involved in a very gender segregated sport, and while I am entirely in support of people being treated as the gender they wish to be, there is also a matter of sportsmanship to consider. Is it properly respectful to allow her in? Yes, it is to her. Is it fair to the other competitors? In this case, no. If they rule in her favor, by all means. But you can never guarantee such things.

I'm leaning towards not realistic sir.

And I really hope they don't rule in her favor. Even if she did compete in the UFC, it's no guarantee that she'll win but I don't think it will be a fair. I won't take anything away from women, however these fights are a measure of skill, commitment, mental preparedness, fitness, strength, natural ability, aggression, and luck to name some of the factors.

I don't think there is a measure for the psychological advantage/disadvantage that Fox may have for having started as a man, and trained against men as a man. I'm leaning towards it being an advantage.

[dakini]

Yeah, to me the loser looked like she weighed more. I must have missed your posting of the stats. I didn't see it in the video so I was going off of perception. One of those perceptions is that she carries herself forward with good posture which goes hand in hand with someone who can hit, and hard.
Here (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Fallon-Fox-100599) is the link to the stats about Fox. She's 5'7"/144 lbs. Her opponent who took a knee to the face is Ericka Newsome (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Ericka-Newsome-98845), who is 5'2"/144 lbs.So I was wrong, they're the same weight (and Fox might also look lighter due to height).


Okay, but what about the 20 years before that? As I recall, she was into MMA before she had the sex change. Would she loose everything she managed to gain physically just because she was taking estrogen/whatever for six years? Or would she be comparatively ahead of the power curve for any naturally born woman in her age group?
I don't know if you've ever tried to get into shape, but it's something you actually have to work at and maintain. I would suspect that going from a male to female hormone balance would change the lot about the way she would have to work out and probably doing the same things with male hormones wouldn't give as much in the way of results with female hormones. Also, since she would have gone through fairly intense surgeries during her transition, she probably had to take some time off to recover, which might not mean basically starting from 0 afterwards, but it's not like you can take a long time off exercise and just jump right back into the same routine.

edit to add: Oh, and also, if you look at Ericka Newsome's professional fight record (n the link), you'll notice that it actually took Fox 3 seconds longer to knock her out cold than her previous opponent. So probably her other professional fight was just as brutal to watch as that one.

[Savrin]

Here (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Fallon-Fox-100599) is the link to the stats about Fox. She's 5'7"/144 lbs. Her opponent who took a knee to the face is Ericka Newsome (http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Ericka-Newsome-98845), who is 5'2"/144 lbs.So I was wrong, they're the same weight (and Fox might also look lighter due to height).

That kind of height to weight ratio should mean a large favor in strength towards Newsome. Five inches is HUGE at such a low weight class unless the other person is grossly out of shape, and it didn't look that way.



I don't know if you've ever tried to get into shape, but it's something you actually have to work at and maintain. I would suspect that going from a male to female hormone balance would change the lot about the way she would have to work out and probably doing the same things with male hormones wouldn't give as much in the way of results with female hormones. Also, since she would have gone through fairly intense surgeries during her transition, she probably had to take some time off to recover, which might not mean basically starting from 0 afterwards, but it's not like you can take a long time off exercise and just jump right back into the same routine.

I'm actually in fairly descent shape sir :D Is it a fair measure to take a 25 year old naturally born female, and a 25 year old Fox, with the same commitment to physical fitness, and see what they look like today? I think the point you might be missing is the measure of what these competitions are about.

This also doesn't address one of the singularly most significant aspects of the sport. The mental part of the game. For that, I don't think there is a fair measure.

One of my favorite authors wrote something to the effect of "Mental preparedness dictates who the deadly encounter is deadly for."


edit to add: Oh, and also, if you look at Ericka Newsome's professional fight record (n the link), you'll notice that it actually took Fox 3 seconds longer to knock her out cold than her previous opponent. So probably her other professional fight was just as brutal to watch as that one.

May or may not be relevant. I saw the other fight Fox had, and she clearly outclassed the other girl in aggression, strength and physical fitness.

As a side note, do males have more of a predisposition to aggression than females?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Yikes.

[Tisket]

Well, calling your car's transmission a trannie is fine. :P

Calling a transgendered person that is generally considered deeply insulting. As is mis-gendering (e.g. how some people are insisting on referring to this woman as a "he" or a "dude").

I never understood someone's reluctance to identify another person as the gender by which they identify themself. I mean, what's the big fucking deal, why wouldn't you "play along" and just call someone who feels they are female "a woman"? To remind them that they aren't? They know already.

I don't argue with midgets who prefer the term "little people" either. If that's what they want then where's the harm.

But I'm sure it wouldn't stop one of you from wanting to pick one up and shake it while shouting "you're a fucking midget! Just say it! Say I am a midget!"

[Drew]

Tennis doesn't have weight classes, though. If your namesake Andrew Noah has 30 pounds more muscle than Mmse. Henin, of course he's going to win. Plus those Noahs all cheat.

And while the bone thing you mentioned certainly sounds like it has merit, nobody measured Brock Lesnar's hands and said "okay, you can only fight maddened gorillas because we don't want to see Mir's face get turned into hamburger". Granted, this is because everyone wanted to see Mir's face get turned into hamburger, but you see my point, right?

You believe that Ronda Rousey could beat Dominick Cruz at a roughly 50/50 rate since they are both 135 champs at their respective weights?



Also the picture that was linked up there is not the lady and the tranny.

[Thondalar]

I'll be the first to admit that I havn't read this entire thread...I read the first page, and i'll add my two cents on that. If it's no longer applicable, so be it.

There is a reason for male and female divisions in sports. I'm 100000% equal opportunity. Fact is, take the biggest female you've ever even heard of in your life, and Ray Lewis will destroy her. Take the best female basketball player ever in the history of females and Lebron James will destroy her.

Men are just built different. For some things they are better. For some things women are better.

Hate to use this particular soap box, but really, i'm kindof pissed off at equality. It's the biggest sack of horseshit ever. Why do we celebrate diversity, but then want everyone to be equal? Do we not realize these two ideals preclude eachother?

CELEBRATE diversity. Quit trying to kill special. Special is GOOD.

Back on topic, this dude is a dude. Cut his nuts off, he's still a dude. Even with hormone therapy he's still going to have the skeleton and (most) of the muscle mass of a dude. I think this is a case where we're getting too ridiculous with the gender scenario. This is also one case where I would argue something is completely unfair. Put a dress on this motherfucker, he's still a dude. He wants to go out and hit women, that's fucked up. I don't care if he thinks he's a woman or not, physiologically he's still a dude.

And really, that's where it breaks down. Mentally, he's a woman. Physically, he's a dude.

So....final arguement....if he wants to play chess, rank him as a female.....if he wants to fight MMA, he's a dude.

-Thond

[Ruh]

Wait is this thread about Foxs?

[Savrin]

Also the picture that was linked up there is not the lady and the tranny.

Yeah, it's Fox in her other fight.

[Drew]

Yeah, it's Fox in her other fight.

No, this pic: http://forum.gsplayers.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4742&d=1363491047

Is Ronda Rousey and Liz Carmouche.

[Latrinsorm]

You believe that Ronda Rousey could beat Dominick Cruz at a roughly 50/50 rate since they are both 135 champs at their respective weights?I don't know, there are champions and then there are champions. I've never seriously followed MMA and certainly not at 135 pounds, so I don't know how Rousey or Cruz stack up historically. (Especially since in really both cases there is none, right? UFC has only been doing the super low weights for a couple years, and women's even less than that.) The 2011 Mavericks would get annihilated by the 1996 Bulls because those Bulls were better, not because Dirk is white.

The ahistory also plays into it another way: the gap between mens and womens basketball in 1972 was vastly larger than it is today because a culture of womens basketball was established. Although this is less of an issue for a comparatively recent sport like modern MMA, there is the larger trend against women in fighting sports.

And anyway, I feel like you still haven't addressed the fundamental point I made, which is that "male" doesn't define an exact fist size (or any other bone or physical parameter). If we were okay with Brock Lesnar having hands like hubcaps when Mir had those little girl hands (and surely could never fight Joe Louis), why wouldn't we be okay with this woman having a similar advantage?

[Savrin]

Funny, it popped up when I did a search, but yeah, I think you are right. Glad you noticed.

[dakini]

That kind of height to weight ratio should mean a large favor in strength towards Newsome. Five inches is HUGE at such a low weight class unless the other person is grossly out of shape, and it didn't look that way.
Longer reach can be useful sometimes?

Fox isn't exceptionally tall though and guys around that height don't tend to have excessively massive hands or anything like this. These sorts of things tend to scale with body size.


I'm actually in fairly descent shape sir :D Is it a fair measure to take a 25 year old naturally born female, and a 25 year old Fox, with the same commitment to physical fitness, and see what they look like today? I think the point you might be missing is the measure of what these competitions are about.
Apologies, my good sir. I cannot see how in shape you are through this series of tubes known as the internet. :)

We're not comparing a 25 year old Fox in the gender assigned to her at birth to a 25 year old woman; we're comaring a 33 (?) year old Fox who no longer has an excess of testosterone to help her maintain and build muscle faster. In 6 years, a person can easly go from being super in shape to totally out of shape even without their body undergoing massive changes.


May or may not be relevant. I saw the other fight Fox had, and she clearly outclassed the other girl in aggression, strength and physical fitness.

As a side note, do males have more of a predisposition to aggression than females?
That's mostly an effect of testosterone, iirc. Since she was raised male, she likely missed out on the social conditioning about how "nice girls" behave which could give her an advantage in terms of aggressiveness. However,any woman in UFC who was raised in a family where learning to fight was an okay thing to do would have that same advangage and I don't think they forbid women who learned to fight as children from participating.

[Savrin]

Longer reach can be useful sometimes?

Can be both a plus and a minus depending at what range the fight is taking place at.


We're not comparing a 25 year old Fox in the gender assigned to her at birth to a 25 year old woman; we're comaring a 33 (?) year old Fox who no longer has an excess of testosterone to help her maintain and build muscle faster. In 6 years, a person can easly go from being super in shape to totally out of shape even without their body undergoing massive changes.

When comparing fighters, we're comparing lifetime dedication. The fact that she had what, 27 years as a male doesn't seem like an unfair advantage?



That's mostly an effect of testosterone, iirc. Since she was raised male, she likely missed out on the social conditioning about how "nice girls" behave which could give her an advantage in terms of aggressiveness. However,any woman in UFC who was raised in a family where learning to fight was an okay thing to do would have that same advangage and I don't think they forbid women who learned to fight as children from participating.

There's a huge difference between learning to "Fight" and belonging to a martial arts organization.

If the comparison is between two women, then I'm fine with that because there aren't any physiological influences.

Woman, as a general rule, don't get involved in fights of dominance. I base this off of personal observation, and research other people have done. My source of information is Rory Miller's "Meditations on Violence."

[Latrinsorm]

If the comparison is between two women, then I'm fine with that because there aren't any physiological influences.

Woman, as a general rule, don't get involved in fights of dominance. I base this off of personal observation, and research other people have done. My source of information is Rory Miller's "Meditations on Violence."Doesn't this seem kind of iffy, though? You are assuming a particular born-male was subject to one average and a particular born-female was subject to the other, thus making the particular born-male exceptional in certain ways (conditioning {social and physical}, muscle, bone, whatever). What if a particular born-female was exceptional in identical ways? Averages always have standard deviations.

It's been mentioned that men on average have bigger hands. Brock Lesnar has hands like frying pans, why is (was) that fair for him but unfair for Fox?

[AnticorRifling]

Doesn't this seem kind of iffy, though? You are assuming a particular born-male was subject to one average and a particular born-female was subject to the other, thus making the particular born-male exceptional in certain ways (conditioning {social and physical}, muscle, bone, whatever). What if a particular born-female was exceptional in identical ways? Averages always have standard deviations.

It's been mentioned that men on average have bigger hands. Brock Lesnar has hands like frying pans, why is (was) that fair for him but unfair for Fox?



Birth junk fights birth junk, feelings not evaluated.

Why didn't you tell me I spelled feelings wrong AHOLE?!

[Savrin]

Doesn't this seem kind of iffy, though? You are assuming a particular born-male was subject to one average and a particular born-female was subject to the other, thus making the particular born-male exceptional in certain ways (conditioning {social and physical}, muscle, bone, whatever). What if a particular born-female was exceptional in identical ways? Averages always have standard deviations.

It's been mentioned that men on average have bigger hands. Brock Lesnar has hands like frying pans, why is (was) that fair for him but unfair for Fox?

I guess you can't say that any of that is an absolute sir. However, the deck was stacked for Fox.

Also, she moves like a guy in the cage.

[dakini]

Can be both a plus and a minus depending at what range the fight is taking place at.
When it starts far and you grab your opponent's head to smash a knee into her face, range seems like an advantage.


When comparing fighters, we're comparing lifetime dedication. The fact that she had what, 27 years as a male doesn't seem like an unfair advantage?
No. All of her opponents have likely spent a similar amount of time training and they didn't have to radically alter how they train as adults. The only advantage she might have had when beginning her transition is strength, but when she starts having female hormones instead of male ones, that advantage doesn't stick around.


There's a huge difference between learning to "Fight" and belonging to a martial arts organization.

If the comparison is between two women, then I'm fine with that because there aren't any physiological influences.

Woman, as a general rule, don't get involved in fights of dominance. I base this off of personal observation, and research other people have done. My source of information is Rory Miller's "Meditations on Violence."
Women who get into martial arts don't get involved in fights of dominance? What exactly are they doing then?

[Latrinsorm]

Why didn't you tell me I spelled feelings wrong AHOLE?!I don't love you, I always will.
I guess you can't say that any of that is an absolute sir. However, the deck was stacked for Fox.I think we agree, but to be clear: I'm not saying it wasn't for her, but that it also was for any number of other people (Lesnar, Liddell, etc.) and nobody cared then. Why now?
Also, she moves like a guy in the cage.I personally feel that Anderson Silva moves like a little girl in the cage. It seems to work out pretty well for him.
Women who get into martial arts don't get involved in fights of dominance? What exactly are they doing then?Their trainers pump them up by telling them the opponent criticized their purses and skirts and... you know... lady stuff.

[Savrin]

When it starts far and you grab your opponent's head to smash a knee into her face, range seems like an advantage.

Range, and moving into the cinch because of the height advantage yes. Those are two examples of height and range mattering. Once in the clinch, you bring their head down to your knee as much as launching your knee into their head.


No. All of her opponents have likely spent a similar amount of time training and they didn't have to radically alter how they train as adults. The only advantage she might have had when beginning her transition is strength, but when she starts having female hormones instead of male ones, that advantage doesn't stick around.

I don't know enough about the subject to do more than speculate. If you're a subject matter expert on this, then I'll bow out to your wisdom as to whether or not she'll still have a strength advantage.


Women who get into martial arts don't get involved in fights of dominance? What exactly are they doing then?

Women get into martial arts for many reasons. The most prevalent one I've encountered is self defense, usually out of insecurity or from past trauma. Others do it to get in or stay in shape. Still others I've met do it with spouses or loved ones as a means to grow that relationship. The ones who compete are doing just that, competition.

When I say fighting, I don't mean competing. There's a huge difference between the two. Granted, MMA type fighting is as close a model to actual fighting as you can get while still having a referee, rules and handy medical support on standby.

When I say dominance, I'm referring to the alpha male thing that happens when (typically) young males try to establish who the top dog is. This sometimes leads to fighting. This isn't to say that girls don't get in fist fights. It just isn't normally for the reason mentioned above and doesn't happen with near the frequency.

[Savrin]

I think we agree, but to be clear: I'm not saying it wasn't for her, but that it also was for any number of other people (Lesnar, Liddell, etc.) and nobody cared then. Why now?

Because they weren't fighting people who started out a different gender?


I personally feel that Anderson Silva moves like a little girl in the cage. It seems to work out pretty well for him.

That cracked me up. Yeah, he does and it does. If he started out as a girl, then had some surgery followed by lots of testosterone and working out, I'm giving up on this argument now.

[Kerranger]

The only advantage she might have had when beginning her transition is strength, but when she starts having female hormones instead of male ones, that advantage doesn't stick around.

Skull thickness, neck size, bone density, pelvic structure, heart size, lung capacity. Those all go away after taking hormones? It can NOT be proved that any of that stuff changes. The IOC allowed transgender athletes after caving to outside pressure, not science. I have seen the interviews MMA sites did with both a top doctor who specializes in sex changes, who said that bone density does change after years of hormone therapy. If that is the case, then you can cross one of those advantages off of the list. HOWEVER, that same doctor was transgender, which seems to me like that opinion would be biased. I have seen the interviews with the orthopedic doctor who says that in fact, NONE of those changes have been proven. Wouldn't it make more sense to just disallow it completely in that case, for reasons of safety?

[Kerranger]

If we were okay with Brock Lesnar having hands like hubcaps when Mir had those little girl hands (and surely could never fight Joe Louis), why wouldn't we be okay with this woman having a similar advantage?

Frank Mir is by no means a small person. He might have little hands, but he showed up to their second fight fucking shredded, and hes been packing on more weight ever since. When you are talking about fighters being able to take a punch, size has a lot to do with it. Muscle mass in the body and the neck and shoulders help protect them better, along with bone and skull density. Brock Lesnar's standup training was also abysmal.

[Latrinsorm]

Because they weren't fighting people who started out a different gender?This seems to be having it both ways.
1. Born-men cannot fight as women because their hands are on average bigger than the average born-woman's.
2. Men whose hands are in particular bigger can fight men whose hands are in particular smaller.
Why is (1) an unfair advantage and (2) a KICK HIS ASS, BROCK!!!?
Frank Mir is by no means a small person. He might have little hands, but he showed up to their second fight fucking shredded,...and got moidalized...
and hes been packing on more weight ever since. When you are talking about fighters being able to take a punch, size has a lot to do with it. Muscle mass in the body and the neck and shoulders help protect them better, along with bone and skull density. Brock Lesnar's standup training was also abysmal.But we don't measure muscle mass, bone and skull density in born-men vs. born-men. Why should we do so in born-men vs. born-women?

[Savrin]

This seems to be having it both ways.
1. Born-men cannot fight as women because their hands are on average bigger than the average born-woman's.
2. Men whose hands are in particular bigger can fight men whose hands are in particular smaller.
Why is (1) an unfair advantage and (2) a KICK HIS ASS, BROCK!!!?...and got moidalized...But we don't measure muscle mass, bone and skull density in born-men vs. born-men. Why should we do so in born-men vs. born-women?

I would say because in two men, they both have the same opportunity as each other when they are conceived to have similar physical characteristics. At least much more so than when you compare a female and a male at conception.

I know this isn't a perfect answer, there's a lot more to in than that. However, the idea is the same. And lets face it, there aren't any perfect answers to this. Otherwise every match would be a tie. They just try and make it as fair as possible. Guy/girl fighting girls is not in my opinion fair.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

A Doctor's perspective on the subject.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/3/20/4128658/dr-ramona-krutzik-endocrinologist-discusses-possible-advantages-fallon-fox-has