Runestaff vs Open Handed vs OHE+shield DS

[Tgo01]

Alright so assuming 7x gear for everything (7x runestaff, 7x shield for open handed, 7x weapon & 7x shield) which would have the most offensive and defensive DS and bolt DS under level 100? Which would have the least?

Do things change post cap if you have, say 16+ magical ranks per level?

[Tgo01]

Someone out there must have the answers I desire.

[Androidpk]

Someone out there must have the answers I desire.

42

[Riltus]

Someone out there must have the answers I desire.

Not enough information.

Character level?
Shield ranks?
Shield size?
Weapon ranks?
Does the open hand shield user have any brawl ranks
Magic ranks per level?
Dodge ranks?
Stats?
etc.

Mark

[Morph]

I don't know the fancy math, but I took these swings when I was deciding if I wanted to switch to shield/brawl or stick with runestaff. It's a 10x medium shield vs a 5x runestaff though. I chose to stick with runestaff, and I know the guarded DS is actually 845 now, and I assume shield would be unchanged. That's one thing I like about runestaff...at least your numbers still go up. I also have 1x dodge in all of these swings.

Guarded Runestaff

Not fitting for one of the healing profession!
You swing a gold-capped mossbark runestaff at Morphias!
AS: +25 vs DS: +841 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +90 = -714
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 30 sec.
>
High Lord Refrain's group just arrived.
>
High Lord Refrain's group just went north.

Offensive Runestaff
>kill mor
Not fitting for one of the healing profession!
You swing a gold-capped mossbark runestaff at Morphias!
AS: +25 vs DS: +663 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +99 = -527
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 30 sec.

Defensive Runestaff

Not fitting for one of the healing profession!
You swing a gold-capped mossbark runestaff at Morphias!
AS: +25 vs DS: +886 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +16 = -833
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 28 sec





Shield

Defensive Shield

Not fitting for one of the healing profession!
You swing a gold-capped mossbark runestaff at Morphias!
AS: +25 vs DS: +849 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +70 = -742
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 28 sec.

Guarded Shield
>kill morp
Not fitting for one of the healing profession!
You swing a gold-capped mossbark runestaff at Morphias!
AS: +25 vs DS: +814 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +7 = -770
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 28 sec.

Offensive Shield

Not fitting for one of the healing profession!
You swing a gold-capped mossbark runestaff at Morphias!
AS: +25 vs DS: +677 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +90 = -550
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 28 sec.

[Kastrel]

How "self-spelled" is that? Aside from Minor E/S and Sorcerer circle?

[Tgo01]

Not enough information.

Character level?
Shield ranks?
Shield size?
Weapon ranks?
Does the open hand shield user have any brawl ranks
Magic ranks per level?
Dodge ranks?
Stats?
etc.

Mark

I was curious if at any point runestaff is better than brawl/shield. I always heard brawl/shield was better but not sure if they've changed things the past few years or if brawl/shield was just preferred because they don't have to worry about being disarmed with a runestaff.

But I'm talking about a pure so shield and weapon rank would be singled, shield size would be tower, open handed caster has brawling ranks, let's say 12 magic ranks per level, no dodge, just for simplicity's sake let's say 100/25 bonus in every stat.

Morph those are some nice numbers for a runestaff. I'm also curious how your spells looked at the time, also how many magic ranks/level does that end up being?

The biggest thing I remember hearing is that brawl/shield users have much better bolt DS, is that true or not?

[Whirlin]

Two other factors that are important are:
What stance are you interested in?
What type of DS do you care about? Physical? Ranged? Spells?

[Tgo01]

Two other factors that are important are:
What stance are you interested in?
What type of DS do you care about? Physical? Ranged? Spells?

I'm interested in offense and guarded stances and I'd like to know all three actually, physical ranged and bolt DS.

[Buckwheet]

So here is my information from tests.



| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Shield Use.........................| 201 101
Combat Maneuvers...................| 201 101
Polearm Weapons....................| 10 2
Brawling...........................| 201 101
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 170 70
Physical Fitness...................| 403 303
Dodging............................| 138 39
Arcane Symbols.....................| 201 101
Magic Item Use.....................| 201 101
Spell Aiming.......................| 302 202
Harness Power......................| 403 303
Elemental Mana Control.............| 102 24
Mental Mana Control................| 302 202
Spirit Mana Control................| 302 202
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 300 200
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 300 200
Perception.........................| 201 101
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 160 60
First Aid..........................| 403 303

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 67

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 67

Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 169




Strength (STR): 100 (10) ... 110 (15)
Constitution (CON): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (40) ... 100 (40)
Agility (AGI): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Aura (AUR): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Logic (LOG): 89 (24) ... 89 (24)
Intuition (INT): 89 (29) ... 89 (29)
Wisdom (WIS): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Influence (INF): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Mana: 503 Silver: 0




You currently have the following active spells:
Armored Evasion .................... 3:59:02
101 ................................ 4:05:32
102 ................................ 4:05:44
103 ................................ 4:05:54
107 ................................ 4:06:04
115 ................................ 4:06:28
120 ................................ 4:06:38
202 ................................ 4:06:49
211 ................................ 4:06:58
215 ................................ 4:07:08
219 ................................ 4:07:19
401 ................................ 3:07:05
406 ................................ 3:07:13
414 ................................ 3:07:21
503 ................................ 2:50:29
509 ................................ 2:50:32
618 ................................ 3:06:01
911 ................................ 4:07:47
1109 ............................... 3:05:08
1119 ............................... 3:05:11
1125 ............................... 3:05:15
1130 ............................... 3:05:18
1712 ............................... 1:08:29
Sigil of Defense ................... 0:04:14
Sigil of Focus ..................... 0:00:17
Sigil of Concentration ............. 0:09:14
Sigil of Major Protection .......... 0:00:16


4x double armor(unlightened), 7x medium shield, 5x runestaff was the gear used.

Defensive, both hands open:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +46 vs DS: +645 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +57 = -525
A clean miss.

Guarded, both hands open:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +46 vs DS: +637 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +56 = -518
A clean miss.

Offensive both hands open:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +46 vs DS: +527 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +80 = -384
A clean miss.

Defensive, medium shield open right hand:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +46 vs DS: +759 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +54 = -642
A clean miss.

Guarded medium shield, open right hand:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +46 vs DS: +725 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +9 = -653
A clean miss.

Offensive medium shield, open right hand:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +46 vs DS: +593 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +91 = -439
A clean miss.

Defensive with a runsestaff:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +46 vs DS: +809 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +27 = -719
A clean miss.

Guarded with a runestaff:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +46 vs DS: +763 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +14 = -686
A clean miss.

Offensive with a runsestaff:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +46 vs DS: +586 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +50 = -473
A clean miss.

Defensive with shield and runestaff:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +46 vs DS: +770 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +98 = -609
A clean miss.

Guarded with shield and runestaff:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +46 vs DS: +763 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +11 = -689
A clean miss.

Offensive shield and runestaff:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +46 vs DS: +614 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +37 = -514
A clean miss.

Offensive medium shield open right hand against thrown:

Jinsem throws a long-shafted rolaren javelin at you!
AS: +224 vs DS: +590 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +56 = -285
A clean miss.
The rolaren javelin flies past you, disappearing into the local environs.

Guarded medium shield open right hand against thrown:

Jinsem throws a long-shafted rolaren javelin at you!
AS: +224 vs DS: +660 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +12 = -399
A clean miss.

Defensive medium shield open right hand against thrown:

Jinsem throws a long-shafted rolaren javelin at you!
AS: +224 vs DS: +679 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +50 = -380
A clean miss.

Defensive nothing in my hands against thrown:

Jinsem throws a long-shafted rolaren javelin at you!
AS: +224 vs DS: +566 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +57 = -260
A clean miss.

Guarded nothing in my hands against thrown:

Jinsem throws a long-shafted rolaren javelin at you!
AS: +224 vs DS: +555 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +2 = -304
A clean miss.

Offensive nothing in my hands against thrown:

Jinsem throws a long-shafted rolaren javelin at you!
AS: +224 vs DS: +519 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +21 = -249
A clean miss.

Offensive runestaff against thrown:

Jinsem throws a long-shafted rolaren javelin at you!
AS: +224 vs DS: +560 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +60 = -251
A clean miss.

Guarded runestaff against thrown:

Jinsem throws a long-shafted rolaren javelin at you!
AS: +224 vs DS: +672 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +97 = -326
A clean miss.

Defensive runestaff against thrown:

Jinsem throws a long-shafted rolaren javelin at you!
AS: +224 vs DS: +703 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +83 = -371
A clean miss.

Defensive runestaff and medium shield against thrown:

Jinsem throws a long-shafted rolaren javelin at you!
AS: +224 vs DS: +749 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +52 = -448
A clean miss.

Guarded runestaff and medium shield against thrown:

Jinsem throws a long-shafted rolaren javelin at you!
AS: +224 vs DS: +721 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +25 = -447
A clean miss.

Offensive runestaff and medium shield against thrown:

Jinsem throws a long-shafted rolaren javelin at you!
AS: +224 vs DS: +612 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +41 = -322
A clean miss.

Bolt against shield and runestaff offensive:

Quallander hurls a small surge of electricity at you!
AS: +298 vs DS: +677 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +86 = -271
A clean miss.

Bolt against shield and runestaff guarded:

Quallander hurls a small surge of electricity at you!
AS: +298 vs DS: +786 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +55 = -411
A clean miss.

Bolt against shield and runestaff defensive:

Quallander hurls a small surge of electricity at you!
AS: +298 vs DS: +814 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +79 = -415
A clean miss.

Bolt against runestaff defensive:

Quallander hurls a small surge of electricity at you!
AS: +298 vs DS: +768 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +72 = -376
A clean miss.

Bolt against runestaff guarded:

Quallander hurls a small surge of electricity at you!
AS: +298 vs DS: +737 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +91 = -326
A clean miss.

Bolt against runestaff offensive:

Quallander hurls a small surge of electricity at you!
AS: +298 vs DS: +625 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +48 = -257
A clean miss.

Bolt against medium shield offensive:

Quallander hurls a small surge of electricity at you!
AS: +298 vs DS: +655 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +83 = -252
A clean miss.


Bolt against medium shield guarded

Quallander hurls a small surge of electricity at you!
AS: +298 vs DS: +725 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +71 = -334
A clean miss.

Bolt against medium shield and defensive:

Quallander hurls a small surge of electricity at you!
AS: +298 vs DS: +744 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +53 = -371
A clean miss.

[Tgo01]

So with about 17 magical ranks per level your runestaff was providing 50 more DS in defensive stance compared to open hand/shield and in offensive stance the open hand/shield provided 7 more DS. So I guess unless you have a whole shit load of magical ranks brawl/shield will be better in offensive stance and you still need quite a bit of magical ranks per level for runestaff DS to be better in defensive stance.

Also I thought you needed an open hand to use runestaves properly? You can use a runestaff and a shield?

[Buckwheet]

Yeah I am really just doing what I said and copy/pasting to get different numbers. I will go through guarded, and finish thrown and then throw some bolts. Its just not really possible to do it from work. I will update my previous post and let you know when those numbers have been added.

[Kastrel]

Morph those are some nice numbers for a runestaff. I'm also curious how your spells looked at the time, also how many magic ranks/level does that end up being?

The biggest thing I remember hearing is that brawl/shield users have much better bolt DS, is that true or not?

I too would love to see the skills behind that, and as I mentioned before, how many (if any) outside spells.

I thought runestaves had a higher bolt DS? But shields had higher ranged DS.

[Morph]

How "self-spelled" is that? Aside from Minor E/S and Sorcerer circle?

The numbers are all in my normal walking around spells. The extra spells would be thurfels, strength, blurs, dims and a small statue.

[Kastrel]

So that should be . . . 75 extra DS? Any society powers?

Impressive DS, even if you take out the extra spells.

[Morph]

COL signs. It's like 17.4 magic skills per level. I also have a 10x db and 9x leathers on, but that's the same in all the swings.

[Kastrel]

I'm just asking so I can compare to my own defense, because your was insanely high, but it sounds like there are a lot of mitigating circumstances. Still really high though.

[Buckwheet]

I have updated my original post with what I feel is completed data. I did physical, bolt, thrown.

I put this together and was hurried so I didn't feel like spending all my time running my spell up scripts:

4x double leathers and 5x runestaff for the gear no major trinkets this is just me in my group.

Defensive:

Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +70 vs DS: +1029 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +45 = -897
A clean miss.

J>stance o
You are now in an offensive stance.
J>
Jinsem swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +70 vs DS: +806 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +6 = -713
A clean miss.

[Tgo01]

Thanks Buckwheet, that helped a lot.

So Buckwheet's character with 101 shield/brawling ranks and 18.38 magical ranks per levels:


Physical DS

Defensive:

medium shield/open hand
DS: +759

runestaff/medium shield
DS: +770

runsestaff
DS: +809

Guarded:

medium shield/open hand
DS: +725

runestaff/medium shield
DS: +763

runestaff
DS: +763

Offensive:

runsestaff:
DS: +586

medium shield/open hand
DS: +593

runestaff/medium shield
DS: +614


Thrown:

Defensive:

medium shield/open hand
DS: +679

runestaff
DS: +703

runestaff/medium shield
DS: +749

Guarded:

medium shield/open hand
DS: +660

runestaff
DS: +672

runestaff/medium shield
DS: +721

Offensive:

runestaff
DS: +560

medium shield/open hand
DS: +590

runestaff/medium shield
DS: +612


Bolt

Defensive:

medium shield/open hand
DS: +744

runestaff
DS: +768

runestaff/medium shield
DS: +814

Guarded:

medium shield/open hand
DS: +725

runestaff
DS: +737

runestaff/medium shield
DS: +786

Offensive:

runestaff
DS: +625

medium shield/open hand
DS: +655

runestaff/medium shield
DS: +677

Against physical attacks a runestaff is better in guarded stance but shield/brawl are about equal in offense stance.

Thrown DS the runestaff is better in guarded stance but shield/brawl has a slight advantage in offense stance.

Bolt DS the runestaff has a slight advantage in guarded stance but the shield is better in offense stance.

Of course this is all with over 18 magical ranks per level so before cap unless you are doing some serious sacrificing you're probably better off with shield/brawl in all situations anyway.

The thing that surprised me the most is runestaff/shield was the best combo. I could have sworn if you hold something in your left hand while holding a runestaff it affected your DS from the runestaff? Is that true and Buckwheet's character just has so many shield/magical ranks that it doesn't matter?

[Buckwheet]

Let me know if you want me to test on these two guys:



Armor Use..........................| 20 4
Combat Maneuvers...................| 163 63
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 302 202
Magic Item Use.....................| 302 202
Spell Aiming.......................| 302 202
Harness Power......................| 403 303
Elemental Mana Control.............| 201 101
Elemental Lore - Fire..............| 302 202
Perception.........................| 201 101
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 160 60

Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 153

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 75

Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 75




Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Shield Use.........................| 201 101
Brawling...........................| 201 101
Physical Fitness...................| 316 216
Arcane Symbols.....................| 102 24
Magic Item Use.....................| 200 100
Harness Power......................| 201 101
Mental Mana Control................| 302 202
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming...........................| 140 40

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 67

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 67

Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 169


Somewhere around here I have a level 60 wizard I could try and test on as well.

[Riltus]

Against physical attacks a runestaff is better in guarded stance but shield/brawl are about equal in offense stance.

Thrown DS the runestaff is better in guarded stance but shield/brawl has a slight advantage in offense stance.

Bolt DS the runestaff has a slight advantage in guarded stance but the shield is better in offense stance.

Of course this is all with over 18 magical ranks per level so before cap unless you are doing some serious sacrificing you're probably better off with shield/brawl in all situations anyway.

The thing that surprised me the most is runestaff/shield was the best combo. I could have sworn if you hold something in your left hand while holding a runestaff it affected your DS from the runestaff? Is that true and Buckwheet's character just has so many shield/magical ranks that it doesn't matter?


There is no DS difference vs ranged attacks (bolts, arrows, thrown). That is, in the absence of spells, DS vs each type of ranged attack has the same value.

Example from the data provided:

Thrown runestaff DS (DEF) = +703
Bolt runestaff DS (DEF) = +768

These two values have a difference of 65. This difference comes from spells 101 (+10 bolt DS only), 107 (+25 bolt DS only) and 219 (+30 bolt DS only). Without those active spells, the DS would be +703 for both bolt and thrown. And this doesn't just apply to runestaves. If you were holding a shield with an empty right hand you would see similar results. If the DS vs a bolt spell was +550, it would also be +550 vs an arrow or thrown weapon.

Dodge DS and the shield penalty -

The character has a dodge base of 121 (39 dodge ranks + 20 ranks from 911 + 20 ranks from 618 + 35 from AGI bonus + 7 from INT bonus). I'll leave out the armor hindrance value for the calculations. Medium shield has a 30% penalty so the shield modifier is 0.70

Dodge Formula vs Melee:


Base Value * Armor Hindrance * Shield Penalty Modifier * Stance Modifier = Dodge DS

This first set calculates Dodge DS only.

1. Offensive w/shield:
(121 * 0.70 * 0.75) = 63

1a. Offensive w/o shield:
(121 * 0.75) = 90

2. Guarded w/shield:
(121 * 0.70 * 0.95) = 79

2a. Guarded w/o shield:
(121 * 0.95) = 114

3. Defensive w/shield:
(121 * 0.70 * 1.00) = 84

3a. Defensive w/o shield:
(121 * 1.00) = 121

The runestaff penalty for holding an item in the off-hand is equal to the one hand parry DS portion of the formula. You still receive the runestaff enchant bonus and the parry stance bonus.

Runestaff Parry DS formula vs Melee


[((10 + weapon ranks + STR/4 + DEX/4) * (stance mod)) * (1.5)] + enchant bonus + stance bonus

Note: Parry DS stance bonuses are: 0 OFF, 10 ADV, 20 FOR, 30 NEU, 40 GUA, 50 DEF.

First you need to convert 'magic ranks per level' into weapon ranks. The 18 ranks per level converts to approximately 165 weapon ranks. I forget if ranks 16/17/18 are valued at (level * 0.05) or (level * 0.025). I'll use the higher value. At cap, 15 ranks per level converts to 150 weapon ranks, plus you also receive 10 bonus ranks. Increasing it to 18 ranks per level will only add, at most, 15 addition weapon ranks. The DS increase from those ranks is pretty small. In defensive stance it's ~15 additional DS.

This set is runestaff DS only.

1. Offensive w/ empty left hand and 5x runestaff:
[((10 + 165 + 3 + 10) * (0.20)) * 1.50] + 25 + 0 = 80

1a. Offensive w/shield in left hand:
80 - ((10 + 165 + 3 + 10) * (0.20)) = 43

2. Guarded w/empty left hand:
[((10 + 165 + 3 + 10) * (0.6)) * 1.50] + 25 + 40 = 233

2a. Guarded w/shield in left hand:
233 - ((10 + 165 + 3 + 10) * (0.60)) = 121

3. Defensive w/empty left hand:
[((10 + 165 + 3 + 10) * (0.7)) * 1.50] + 25 + 50 = 271

1a. Defensive w/shield in left hand:
271 - ((10 + 165 + 3 + 10) * (0.70)) = 140

Shield DS formula vs Melee:


[(Ranks + STR/4 + DEX/4) * Shield Size Modifier * Stance Modifier) ÷ 1.5)]
+ 20 (Natural Shield Bonus) + Shield Enchant Bonus

Shield ranks 101, the medium shield size modifier vs melee is 1.00 so, we can exclude that from the calculations. Shield DS vs ranged uses different modifiers and there is also a shield size bonus/penalty in addition to the natural +20 and enchant bonuses. I'm using a 5x shield for these calculations

This set is shield DS only

1. Offensive:
[(101 + 3 + 10) * 0.50) / 1.5)] + 20 + 25 = 83

2. Guarded:
[(101 + 3 + 10) * 0.90) / 1.5)] + 20 + 25 = 112

3. Defensive:
[(101 + 3 + 10) * 1.00) / 1.5)] + 20 + 25 = 120

Even with 2 empty hands there is still one-hand parry DS from the 101 brawling ranks.

One-hand Parry DS Formula vs Melee:

Note: There is no parry DS vs ranged attacks with the exception of runestaves.


[(Ranks + STR/4 + DEX/4) * (stance modifier)] + stance bonus

This set is one-hand parry DS only

1. Offensive:
[(101 + 3 + 10) * 0.20] + 0 = 22

2. Guarded:
[(101 + 3 + 10) * 0.60] + 40= 108

3. Defensive:
[(101 + 3 + 10) * 0.70] + 50 = 129

These next sets show melee DS from multiple sources as described

A. Dodge + One-hand Parry DS (Both hands empty):

OFF: 90 + 22 = 112
GUA: 114 + 107 = 221
DEF: 121 + 129 = 250

B. Dodge (w/ medium shield penalty) + One-hand Parry (empty right hand) + Shield DS:

OFF: 63 + 22 + 83 = 168
GUA: 79 + 108 + 112 = 299
DEF: 84 + 129 + 120 = 333

C. Dodge + Runestaff:

OFF: 90 + 80 = 170
GUA: 114 + 233 = 347
DEF: 121 + 271 = 392

D. Dodge + Runestaff + Shield:

OFF: 63 + 43 + 83 = 192
GUA: 79 + 121 + 112 = 312
DEF: 84 + 140 + 120 = 344
__________________________________________________ ___

The following sets are a comparison of a capped pure with 12 magic ranks per level vs. 100 shield + 100 brawl ranks with the same stats from above (15 STR, 40 DEX). Also 5x runestaff, 5x shield and 0 dodge.

E. Runestaff only (melee)

OFF: 71
GUA: 206
DEF: 240

F. Shield + Brawl (melee)

OFF: 104
GUA: 219
DEF: 249

G. Runestaff + Shield (melee)

OFF: 98
GUA: 225
DEF: 250

Mark

[Tgo01]

Thanks for that post Riltus, it was very informative. I don't know why I thought ranged DS was different, could have sworn I read that somewhere.

[Buckwheet]

What would happen if I trained him in TWC?