VHCP half plate V HCP full plate

[bremerial]

Ok folks, general question for input by those with better minds than I.

Ignoring the the fact that full plate protects more than half plate for a moment, If a person has +25 VHCP half plate, what is the value/benefit to swapping to a HCP full plate?

Would the answer be different if the full plate was +35 or +40?

Input welcome..

[thefarmer]

Ok folks, general question for input by those with better minds than I.

Ignoring the the fact that half plate protects more than half plate for a moment, If a person has +25 VHCP half plate, what is the value/benefit to swapping to a HCP full plate?

Would the answer be different if the full plate was +35 or +40?

Input welcome..

CvA

[Gelston]

The CvA is fairly minor, (only a difference of 1). That being said, I'd switch to full plate if it was 10 more DS for sure.. At most it is a difference of 5 points of padding and potentially a difference of 1 point. Not really a big deal for a warrior.

[Buckwheet]

AVD would be different also I think. Not by much. I ran a nice set of half plate with temp MCP accessories for a while. It was pretty nice.

[Archigeek]

Probably the biggest difference would be the encumberance benefit of lightened full plate.

[Menos]

You do also get a bit better maneuver defense with the hp, with the padding and lower hindrance. On balance I would take the higher enchant fp, but a play more ds sensitive builds than most.

[Archigeek]

You also get more maneuver penalty with full plate than half. I think the vhcp half plate is the much better choice if you're purely concerned about maneuvers. That said, encumberance is a big issue for a lot of us, and if you're encumbered, you will get penalized for that too.

[Riltus]

AVD would be different also I think. Not by much. I ran a nice set of half plate with temp MCP accessories for a while. It was pretty nice.

Each armor group has a standard AvD difference for the sub-groups. The difference from group to group is variable.

Leather: 1
Scale: 2
Chain: 4
Plate: 6

Examples


AsG 5: X
AsG 6: X - 1
AsG 7: X - 2
AsG 8: X - 3


AsG 17: X
AsG 18: X - 6
AsG 19: X - 12
AsG 20: X - 18

AvDs for broadsword


AsG 5: 36
AsG 6: 35
AsG 7: 34
AsG 8: 33


AsG 17: 36
AsG 18: 30
AsG 19: 24
AsG 20: 18

With the upcoming release of UCS capable creatures it is important to note that UCS damage factors are based on the body part protection and not the armor group. Strikes to the head/neck/eyes in half plate will have chain DFs not plate DFs. Armor accessories do not affect DFs.

Mark

[bremerial]

You folks are bloody brilliant!

[Buckwheet]

Each armor group has a standard AvD difference for the sub-groups. The difference from group to group is variable.

Leather: 1
Scale: 2
Chain: 4
Plate: 6

Examples


AsG 5: X
AsG 6: X - 1
AsG 7: X - 2
AsG 8: X - 3


AsG 17: X
AsG 18: X - 6
AsG 19: X - 12
AsG 20: X - 18

AvDs for broadsword


AsG 5: 36
AsG 6: 35
AsG 7: 34
AsG 8: 33


AsG 17: 36
AsG 18: 30
AsG 19: 24
AsG 20: 18

With the upcoming release of UCS capable creatures it is important to note that UCS damage factors are based on the body part protection and not the armor group. Strikes to the head/neck/eyes in half plate will have chain DFs not plate DFs. Armor accessories do not affect DFs.

Mark

Yeah that makes sense. I just want to clarify with UCS and my old setup to make sure that I would be protected still if I had the combination.

I was wearing HCP half plate with temp MCP arm, leg, head/neck protection. My understanding is that I had HCP on the chest, abs, and back with MCP coverage everywhere else and plate DF on the head, neck, and eyes. The only negative was having the CvA of the half plate.

This combination provided superior padding at a lower cost and I found that hits to the back, chest, abdomen were reduced enough by HCP/Plate combination. I found hard hits to the neck, head, eyes, legs were far easier to get before adding in the MCP accessories and just in general felt more protected at a cheaper price point.

Are you saying that now with UAC I would actually get hit harder with the combination?

[Riltus]

Yeah that makes sense. I just want to clarify with UCS and my old setup to make sure that I would be protected still if I had the combination.

I was wearing HCP half plate with temp MCP arm, leg, head/neck protection. My understanding is that I had HCP on the chest, abs, and back with MCP coverage everywhere else and plate DF on the head, neck, and eyes. The only negative was having the CvA of the half plate.

This combination provided superior padding at a lower cost and I found that hits to the back, chest, abdomen were reduced enough by HCP/Plate combination. I found hard hits to the neck, head, eyes, legs were far easier to get before adding in the MCP accessories and just in general felt more protected at a cheaper price point.

Are you saying that now with UAC I would actually get hit harder with the combination?

No, that's an unknown if you are comparing UCS critical outcomes for HCP full plate (plate DFs) vs. MCP half plate (chain DFs). My guess would be that it's probably a wash.

What I am saying is that the critical protection of HCP full plate is superior to HCP half plate vs UCS because the armor accessory covered areas have chain damage factors. This is not true with other combat systems where the DF is based on the torso armor's group, not the sub-group's coverage.

UCS criticals are based on both position and endroll. Position determines the maximum critical rank (decent: rank 5, good: rank 8, excellent: rank 11). Heavier armor and padding will increase the minimum endrolls required to achieve these maximum ranks. There is also crit randomization and other variables which factor into an attack's critical rank outcome.

When facing UCS-based attacks the most important factor is the attacker's position. Even with a 500 endroll the worst possible critical rank outcome, from a kick attack, is a level 2 injury w/5 round stun when launched from DECENT positioning. But even excellent position attacks can result in minor critical damage with low endrolls.

These aren't actual numbers but as an example, a 200 endroll from excellent position vs leather may cause a rank 9/10/11 critical but if the defender is wearing HCP plate the outcome could be a rank 4/5/6 critical. With melee combat we can calculate the min/max crit from the endroll, damage factor and armor group. There is no simple formula for UCS critical outcomes.

Another issue that I foresee with UCS is redux %. Character's are going to find that their effective redux is somewhat less with UCS than melee. The redux factor decreases as the critical damage to total damage ratio increases. UCS attacks will generally result in higher ratios than melee, therefore, less effective redux.

Mark

[Archigeek]

No, that's an unknown if you are comparing UCS critical outcomes for HCP full plate (plate DFs) vs. MCP half plate (chain DFs). My guess would be that it's probably a wash.

What I am saying is that the critical protection of HCP full plate is superior to HCP half plate vs UCS because the armor accessory covered areas have chain damage factors. This is not true with other combat systems where the DF is based on the torso armor's group, not the sub-group's coverage.

UCS criticals are based on both position and endroll. Position determines the maximum critical rank (decent: rank 5, good: rank 8, excellent: rank 11). Heavier armor and padding will increase the minimum endrolls required to achieve these maximum ranks. There is also crit randomization and other variables which factor into an attack's critical rank outcome.

When facing UCS-based attacks the most important factor is the attacker's position. Even with a 500 endroll the worst possible critical rank outcome, from a kick attack, is a level 2 injury w/5 round stun when launched from DECENT positioning. But even excellent position attacks can result in minor critical damage with low endrolls.

These aren't actual numbers but as an example, a 200 endroll from excellent position vs leather may cause a rank 9/10/11 critical but if the defender is wearing HCP plate the outcome could be a rank 4/5/6 critical. With melee combat we can calculate the min/max crit from the endroll, damage factor and armor group. There is no simple formula for UCS critical outcomes.

Another issue that I foresee with UCS is redux %. Character's are going to find that their effective redux is somewhat less with UCS than melee. The redux factor decreases as the critical damage to total damage ratio increases. UCS attacks will generally result in higher ratios than melee, therefore, less effective redux.

Mark

Does it seem off to anyone else that UCS is more effective against heavy armor than small weapons are? The idea of a monk in battle with a knight in full plate just seems like an odd image to me, particularly when the monk is effective with blows. I would think that grappling would be more effective, while kicks and punches would be near worthless. I'm sure somneone can envision a counter argument... meanwhile, small weapons are still the wet noodles of Gemstone.

[Androidpk]

Seems pretty logical to me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIIgge9-i24

Mechanically speaking though, UAC attacks are weighted towards the higher end of the crit tables, which certainly helps a lot.

[Riltus]

Does it seem off to anyone else that UCS is more effective against heavy armor than small weapons are? The idea of a monk in battle with a knight in full plate just seems like an odd image to me, particularly when the monk is effective with blows. I would think that grappling would be more effective, while kicks and punches would be near worthless. I'm sure somneone can envision a counter argument... meanwhile, small weapons are still the wet noodles of Gemstone.

Finros commenting on high endroll, low crit rank outcomes with small weapons.


This is precisely the reason for the current setup. Given the same endroll, KICK may do four times the raw damage that JAB does (an example number; don't read too much into the specific value), but that doesn't mean that KICK should have a fourfold crit rank advantage as well. The two attacks have entirely different purposes and work with entirely different crit tables. Ideally, I would prefer the same system for weapons as well, but it would be rather impractical to go back and design new crit tables for every single weapon type in the game.

Mark

[Geijon Khyree]

You also get more maneuver penalty with full plate than half. I think the vhcp half plate is the much better choice if you're purely concerned about maneuvers. That said, encumberance is a big issue for a lot of us, and if you're encumbered, you will get penalized for that too.

Kerl's single drawback. He's a Human. Giantmen don't have encumbrance. My backpack space fills sooner. :)

[Jeril]

You clearly aren't a pack rat, or a big enough of one.