Revisiting bard 3 years later...

[Dystopia]

Hey folks. Haven't played my bard in years and took him from 20 to 30 with fletching and gem bounties over the years so I'm very rusty and missed ten important levels for learning the class as it progresses.

He's a polebard but I love my purification mule...

I should aim for 425 after 1035 right?

Also go for brig sonic armor asap? How many ranks do I need to start brig?

What cmans would be best? Feint?

I'll be MA'ing him with an empath if that helps any, side-by-side won't do me any good.

1x armor
2x dodge
2x polearm
1x cman
1x PF
1.5x harness
1-1.5x MIU
20 Arcane symbols for Broken Lands
24 EMC (?)
1x MMC
1x Air Lore for dual flares
1x Telepathy Lore to 30 for Kai / Triumph / Rage?
Obligatory climb / swim / perception / FA

Obviously confused on training


What's with EMC and MMC? Train elemental to 24 and go solely mmc after that?

Thanks for all the help!

Dys

[DaCapn]

There's no way you'll be able to fit all of that in. Especially dodge. I only really ever had the points to 0.5x dodge and had nothing left over for MIU/AS. I didn't go over 1x HP either. I did find squeezing things in early on a little difficult with my bard. But then again I'm used to rogues and wizards. What I'd suggest is just training in what you know you'll need (your most baseline training possible), play with it for a while to see what you need most.

I'd aim for 425 before 1035. Early on, you can't really keep 1035 up and 25 AS is huge. Also, you should look at your training and balance 425 with things like mental lore. From 25 to 33 ranks of telepathy lore, you get +1 AS. But from 14 to 25 ranks of MnE, you get 25 AS. The MnE is about 3x the training points but it's also 10x the AS per TP.

And people only train in EMC for sharing. I stopped MMC at 30 ranks but there's some variation here. I've been re-thinking MMC here since, as far as I know, it only affects 1013 and 1040. I never use 1013 and I don't have 1040 anymore with my current build.

I don't know why people ever advocate for full-coverage armor with bards. I hear lots of people advocate for brig but I don't see any sense in it personally. I'd work my way up to studded leather, then straight to chain shirt, then top-off at aug chain.

[andrew wiggin]

He's a polebard but I love my purification mule...

I should aim for 425 after 1035 right?

430 first. you won't have the mana to do much with 1030 + until atleast lvl 50 +.


Also go for brig sonic armor asap? How many ranks do I need to start brig?

35 ranks will fully train in it. Sonic armor is too costly to maintain at your lvl. at your lvl you can probably maintain about 4 songs. won't be until near lvl 40 you'll have enough mana to add a 5th and maintain.

What cmans would be best? Feint?

whatever you like, they're pretty much just cosmetic. none all that useful compare to 1005/410.

I'll be MA'ing him with an empath if that helps any, side-by-side won't do me any good.

1x armor
2x dodge
2x polearm
1x cman
1x PF
1.5x harness
1-1.5x MIU
20 Arcane symbols for Broken Lands
24 EMC (?)
1x MMC
1x Air Lore for dual flares
1x Telepathy Lore to 30 for Kai / Triumph / Rage?
Obligatory climb / swim / perception / FA

Obviously confused on training

you can lower dodge to even .5x, but 1x should be plenty to pump more tps for spell ranks. 1x harness is efficient use of tp. don't worry about other lores besides the air lore right now. you can even drop air lore entirely right now. At you lvl, most optimal would be to get close to 2x spells so you can have it all. then cut down on spell training and start the lores or whatever else.


What's with EMC and MMC? Train elemental to 24 and go solely mmc after that?

they'll help with mana regen, mmc would be the better choice to train to share with the empath for those purifying sessions. but keep it to a minimal and use your tps for something else. like... more spells..

[AbnInfamy]

1+x armor (Get into aug chain by 30-40, it's worth it)
1x dodge
2x polearm
1x cman
1x PF
1x harness
0x MIU (Not a huge necessity if you have an empath buddy)
20 Arcane symbols for Broken Lands
0-1x MMC (Not necessary if you're a pole bard, you won't run out of mana very quickly because all you need is 1005, 1002, and renew mana)
1x Air Lore for dual flares
0x (Highly optional)
Obligatory climb / swim / perception / FA

You should actually be able to work this training and be into augmented chain by 40 with TP to spare.
As a polearm bard, 1005 is going to be your bread and butter.
I agree with Dacapn, get 425 first, it will let you actually blow up shields with 1002.
Brigandine is nice because it doesn't add a whole lot of hinderance. I used it when I had 30 ranks of armor. The bard hinderance is meaningless, because it doesn't cost mana and you can just cast again. It's only a few% hinderance and it protects the head. Good tradeoff.

[Whirlin]

Urgh... though I hit reply to this!

Your 'core' training as a polearm bard is pretty time and straight forward:
2x Polearm
1x Dodge
1x CMan
1x PF
1x HP
1x Spell

I recommend 430 before 1035... as Wiggin said, you won't have the mana to reliably use 1035 anyway, so don't worry about it.

The fun is in the variables train stuff with discrete bonuses:
25 ranks of telepathy lore (Adds +5 to AS with Kai's... good breakpoint)
60 ranks of armor use (Chain Hauberk... the next step up in armor costs 110... so yeah, we stick to this typically)
50 ranks in Climbing (grab a few early on, and then worry about it after 50)
50 ranks in Swimming (see climbing)
** Ranks in Perception (see climbing and swimming... but going up to a full 1x in this isn't bad, but not a high priority)
20 ranks in MIU (personal preference, but I recommend it)
25 ranks in EMC (now that there are dual cast stuff for every 25 ranks, it's worth getting the 1 over the 100% share at 24).
1x in MMC
1x in Air Lore (this is NOT a high priority... 5-6x lances are pretty cheap, and since you're going MnE first, it won't be til level 70ish that a sonic weapon provides a higher AS bonus than a 6x weapon... so, no need to hold back on other discrete bonus items to pick up lore that won't benefit you... you're better off maxing out Armor use 5 levels early... starting on MIU, maybe overtraining spells, etc.)
** Ranks in MOC. I just got to 30 ranks myself... holy crap, mstriking is just FUN... there's really nothing else I can say about it. It's purely for the fun perspective in the game nobody really talks about.


Personally, my training always stuck with the core training, and I did something like this:
25 ranks in Telepathy... 1x per level til 25... At that time I started having extra TPs
Powered up to 60 ranks in armor use... finished armor use by 40ish
Overtrained in spells, had 1020 and 430 at level 45ish
Working on some mana control and some MOC now

Personally, At level 50:
60 armor, 30 MoC, 11 MiU, 10 EMC, 10 MMC, 5 Perception, 5 Swim, 10 Climb,
30 MnE, 22 Bard, and all core training mentioned above.

[Dystopia]

Well this is him, I have about 700 TP's or so to either fix these skills or have to use my fixskills...

Is there any salvation for this?

Looking at it after pasting it I'm guessing not....


Myoldbard (at level 30), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 102 24
Combat Maneuvers...................| 99 23
Polearm Weapons....................| 146 46
Physical Fitness...................| 99 23
Dodging............................| 99 23
Harness Power......................| 120 30
Elemental Mana Control.............| 122 31
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 90 20
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 124 32
Perception.........................| 96 22
Climbing...........................| 50 10
Swimming...........................| 35 7

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 30

[Dystopia]

Stats per request


Name: Myoldbard Race: Elf Profession: Bard (shown as: Storyteller)
Gender: Male Age: 325 Expr: 1047650 Level: 30
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 86 (18) ... 86 (18)
Constitution (CON): 55 (2) ... 55 (2)
Dexterity (DEX): 73 (16) ... 73 (16)
Agility (AGI): 79 (29) ... 79 (29)
Discipline (DIS): 92 (6) ... 92 (6)
Aura (AUR): 94 (27) ... 94 (27)
Logic (LOG): 92 (21) ... 92 (21)
Intuition (INT): 55 (2) ... 55 (2)
Wisdom (WIS): 58 (4) ... 58 (4)
Influence (INF): 89 (29) ... 89 (29)
Mana: 131 Silver: 100

Enhancives are +4 agi bonus and as much dex bonus as I'd ever need, can just take some from a few of my wizards.

[Whirlin]

Stats are probably fine. I'm not really digging too deeply into them. I pretty much assume everyone fixstats at cap anyway.

The only thing that seems off to me is the high manipulation lore. Manipulation is great if going pure... but you're not pure.. so... Not that great.

Telepathy up to 25 ranks is better off early on for the song duration and Kai's potency. But you're 30 already... your call if you want it.

You need to get up to 2x Polearm, 1x Armor, PF, Dodge, CM

EMC you can drop down to 25 ranks and pick up MMC in it's place. MMC will help with Unravelling song (1013), and as far as I know, that's the only spell that directly benefits from either EMC or MMC... so why not MMC after you hit 100% EMC share?

Then start working on MnE, or take a few ranks out of bard into MnE... but that's not unsalvagable.

You'll be fine to hunt, script hunt even up to 50ish... so I wouldn't worry about fixskilling. The first 50 levels are so easy anyway, just bigshot, stance down to unhittable, and go to town.

[Dystopia]

I've got a boatload of THW, or even better, some very nice enhancive OHE/OHB and shields.

How do these guys fair with one-handed or two-handed?

Two-handed build would be the same as above except with thw instead of polearm right?

He'll likely only be 50 by May so if those builds are better for 30-50 in terms of tp's or even viability and powerhunting I wouldn't mind doing that for awhile. Hate to have these amazing items sitting bc I don't play my squares anymore.

Thanks again guys.

Dys

[Whirlin]

OHE/OHB + Shield as a bard is an... interesting build...

Due to the overall low DF of these weapons compared to the THW or Polearm, the build that I would consider most viable actually has you swinging a sonic weapon ASAP. Which sonic weapon? A sonic dagger.

Of course, this is subject to change when you get 1035, at which point you swing the largest weapon you can while maintaining a 1 sec RT. But, the emphasis is on the sonic weapon flares, and maximizing attacks per time to increase the damage output from flares. Kinda like rcasting 901... but with a double flaring staff.

Same above applies to blunt with dagger with cudgel or whatever low RT OHB there is.

As far as THW versus polearms. If I'm not mistaken, polearms are better than THW if you have the AGLDEX to support them. THW are also 1/1 more to train in. That can add up to quite a bit when you're draining 3/3 a level by 2xing. That's TP that you could use to do a full 1x into climbing and perception for life. Plus, as an elf (statistically maximized for bards iirc from when I rolled mine), you'll have the AGLDEX to support a polearm.

So, you said that you just had a good THW. We're talking about Bards here with their own magical air weapons. Is whatever THW that you have double flaring, undisarmable, and over 7x? Because that's what you'll end up with as a bard. If you want to use it in the interim until you have the TPs to support those higher builds, that's another decision all together. There's always the annual fixskills.

Plus, you could always just sell your Two-Handed sword with deathrunes on it and pick up a lance with death runes on it... There's that whole marketplace of buying and selling that you could consider.

[AbnInfamy]

If you're going to be OHE you're going to be swinging all day praying for flares and hoping to bleed them out. If you have nice OHE/OHB I recommend looking at a TWC path. The points are a little tight at times, but since you have sleep you can manage to train TWC 0.5x-0.75x and get away with it. Throw in some MoC and you'll be a flare generating machine.

[Dystopia]

Should I wait on MoC? I'd love to have 15 ranks to hit 3 foes when my empath fire spirits and hits 3.

What can I sacrifice for it early on? It's 7/3 which kinda sucks.

[Whirlin]

I waited until after I had 430, 1019, and finished armor use before I started MoC... I'd recommend doing the same... but I wouldn't start on air lore til after it.

[Dystopia]

Okay I fiddled around a bit.

30 Armor
60 Pole Arm
30 Cman
30 PF
15 Dodge
10 Climb
5 Swim
20 Perception
30 Harness Power
25 MMC
425 Minor Elemental / 1020 Bard

Now that I've got this base, just work off the advice from this thread and I'm good to go?

These skills literally leave me 1 Phys TP left.

[andrew wiggin]

that's one rocking lvl 30 bard with that.

[Drakefang]

I waited until after I had 430, 1019, and finished armor use before I started MoC... I'd recommend doing the same... but I wouldn't start on air lore til after it.

WTF?

Air lore is critical if you are going to use a sonic weapon. No ifs ands or buts. Get 15 ranks of air lore before using a sonic weapon. It gives you a solid chance at setting off the second flare on your sonic weapon.

[Drakefang]

Okay I fiddled around a bit.

30 Armor
60 Pole Arm
30 Cman
30 PF
15 Dodge
10 Climb
5 Swim
20 Perception
30 Harness Power
25 MMC
425 Minor Elemental / 1020 Bard

Now that I've got this base, just work off the advice from this thread and I'm good to go?

These skills literally leave me 1 Phys TP left.

Call me nitpicky, but I am going to nitpick.

30 armor is fine. 35 ranks is where you want to be for sonic brig. At level 30, max training for poles should be 62 ranks. Always get the max training for weapon if nothing else. The CM is nice...which cmans do you have? With that build I would have charge and/or sweep. I found sweep to be good early to mid game and charge late game for pole bards.

I don't like the .5x dodge. Others will say it's fine. I think you have WAY too many spells at your level. Way too many. You are a pole bard...you should be one instead of a hybrid pure/polearm bard. That tends to not work as well as you think it will. Your option at this point is not to train in spells for 15 levels. You should be 1x in spells. My opinion is you are being way too aggressive in order to have 425. It's unnecessary with a lance. 420/1012 is where I might consider being at level 30. That would free up mtp so that you could be 1x dodge, get 5 ranks of MoC and probably have 10-15 ranks of telepathy lore, which in my opinion is necessary for weapon using bards. It adds to your AS from Kai's (1007) and increases renewal time and a bunch of other bardic things. The MMC is the right call. I'd stop at 30 ranks simply for the extra bump of mana per pulse but there is no rush to get there. 20-25 ranks of MMC at level 30 is plenty...maybe more than necessary.

MMC is a good choice with an empath hunting partner. Being able to share mana is extremely nice. Assuming the empath has MMC.

[Thondalar]

Thondalar (at level 30), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 130 35
Combat Maneuvers...................| 124 32
Polearm Weapons....................| 164 64
Physical Fitness...................| 124 32
Harness Power......................| 122 31
Elemental Mana Control.............| 58 12
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 30 6
Mental Lore - Telepathy............| 105 25
Perception.........................| 70 15
Climbing...........................| 70 15
Swimming...........................| 70 15
Trading............................| 164 64

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 16

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 19


I use a sonic lance and easily overhunt. Bards are OP even with weird training.

-Thond

[Drakefang]

Yeah, I think overall that looks better. I think it's still spell heavy. I don't care for the EMC, but everyone's mileage varies. You're doing what works for you. I will only say that 1040 uses MMC, as does 1013, and both seem to become necessary at some point while being a bard. I kind of like the trading. It's a variance not many go with but I hope you find it has some significant benefit. I see the manip lore...where are you going with it? Are you happy with the FoF DS? I would prefer to have 10 ranks of MoC at some point to counter at least one extra critter. I didn't go poles til about level 70ish but even as a sword and boarder I preferred having more than none.

[Whirlin]

I don't like the .5x dodge. Others will say it's fine. I think you have WAY too many spells at your level. Way too many.

I say push it to 30 in MnE, then no more spells til 50. On my bard, once I hit 430, I was able to hunt in offensive. Sure, it's aggressive in spells, but whatever... No reason not to go for the short gains. It's basically the difference between +1 DS per level for 10 levels, or +10 DS right now, and none for the next 9 levels... Just makes sense to me to get it early and start utilizing it.



That would free up mtp so that you could be 1x dodge.

Once you hit 430, I'd recommend:
Get Dodge up to 1x
Drop 25 ranks in Telepathy Lores
Finish Armor up to 60 ranks.
Then start on MoC if you want.
You should get that all done before you start training spells again.



The MMC is the right call. I'd stop at 30 ranks simply for the extra bump of mana per pulse but there is no rush to get there. 20-25 ranks of MMC at level 30 is plenty...maybe more than necessary.
Don't we need a little EMC for our Song of Power? Or is that completely dependent on Bard Ranks and level?

[Drakefang]

That's saying the only thing you get is one DS per level from all that. It frees up points to accomplish many things, not just grant DS. To each their own. I never liked the learning things in big batches. I always felt I'd prefer small increases in ability as you go versus great leaps every 10 or 15 levels as you learn a new skill.

Song of power has nothing to do with mana controls. I believe it simply creates an earth node equivalent for mana purposes. Either way, emc nor mmc play a role in its use.

[andrew wiggin]

His current training plan yields one of the highest AS/DS/CS/TD possible for that build.

[Drakefang]

His current training plan yields one of the highest AS/DS/CS/TD possible for that build.

I never claimed it didn't. I simply claimed you could do more with the points than double up in spells. That is a crapload of points. I guess if you only want to generate rolls, it wins. Probably at level 30 that is all that matters.

[Whirlin]

The goal during the earlier levels is to maximize short terms gains to make hunting easier. This really evens out post 65ish.

Lets take an example of Armor use versus more ranks in Spell Research for the OP. Lets say we're level 30 (like the OP) and talking about the next 10 levels.

So, the OP could train .5x in spells (since he's already doubling), while doing 2x armor use. By this, at level 40, he'll have 430 and be wearing ASG15 (up from 12).
For arguments' sake, based on the AvD change, and DS bonuses, that's a total of +20 DS. Both gains would be realized at level 40.
So, in terms of a levels * benefits calculation, you're looking at a total payoff of +20 DS for 1 level.

Or, the OP could train 1x spells, then 4x in armor use. (I know, the maths doesn't work out... but this is illustrative). He'll have 430 at level 35, still be in ASG12, and then wear ASG15 at level 40. So he gets the added benefit of having +15 DS 5 levels earlier, and the end result of +20 at level 40.
So, in terms of a levels * benefits calculation, you're looking at a total payoff of +15 DS for 5 level, and +20 DS total for 1 level... The added DS earlier on allowing for easier training of the subsequent 5 levels.

MOST training works out this way.
MIU: 6 ranks for haste imbeds... 10 ranks for e-wave imbeds... 11 for disk?
Mana Sharing: 10/20/25/30 ranks for +1 mana or multi cast levels.
MoC: Growth is actually linear, so my argument is slightly invalid here in terms of FoF DS pushdown nullification, but in terms of MStriking, 10, 25, etc.
Armor use: 35, 50, 60
Spells: 1020, 414, 425, 430, 1030, 1035... After that it evens out.

The things that don't follow this, I categorized as 'core' training in my earlier post:
2x polearm
1x (-1) Harness Power
1x Dodge
1x spell (can fluctuate)
1x PF
1x CMan

[andrew wiggin]

I simply claimed you could do more with the points than double up in spells.

I understand what you're saying Galenok. But the OP's goal for his character, aside from normal hunting viability is to be able to mana share with his empath and purify gems. Which he manages to accomplish that with the 25 ranks of mmc and having 20 bard spellsongs.

I do recommend working manipulation lore up to 30 ranks from here on out to make a very good purifier. OP also likes to continue/improve making a good silver income with selling best quality chrism.

[Thondalar]

...I don't care for the EMC, but everyone's mileage varies..... I kind of like the trading..... I see the manip lore...where are you going with it?......

Thondalar is strictly an alt, I have no intention of ever capping him. The EMC is to send mana to my wizard, I really have no use for it otherwise. The trading is because he's my "merchant" character, it fits the RP and I use him to sell everything my other characters get, or to get a good deal on stuff I find in the pawnshop or merchant events. I hit 25 telepathy for that tier of lore benefit for 1007, i'm now maxing out manipulation for purifying.

Originally I wasn't going to take him past 50, but now i'm thinking about going up to 80ish, just so there isn't anything IG he can't hold to sing to.

If he was my primary character, and I didn't have awesome gear and a supporting cast, I wouldn't have trained him like that at all.

My point in posting it is that you have a lot of room for variation in a bard's training.

-Thond