Rolling a hurling character

[nocturnix]

I am thinking about giving a hurling character a try, or fixstating one of my existing characters. I have never tried hurling.

I'd like to ask other experienced "hurlers" some questions:


It seems to be a kind of secondary weapon skill and not a main weapon skill. If you are tight on training points is it OK to train only in hurling as a weapon skill?

How is defense/DS calculated? Do you wear a shield when you hunt for DS and train in shield use?

What does a "hurler" build look like? Assuming the main focus is on hurling and not a secondary focus.

[Vorpodu]

I was under the impression that hurling was just for post cap characters that are bored, and it shouldn't even be attempted without one of those infinate bandoliers.

[nocturnix]

OK so lets say you had a bandolier or a returner...how about then?

[Archigeek]

I started hurling well before cap, and have also rolled a young hurler. The assumption that it's post-cap only is wrong. Bandoliers and returners definitely help, but you don't need them to start. My young hurler mostly sticks with feras, which is readily available, cheap and disposable. It's a bit more work, but it's fun. Regardless of your weapon of choice, the most important thing is to understand the advantages: speed and lower DS for your targets, and disadvantages: weaponry management, high TP cost for your own DS, and poor DFs for pure hurling weapons.

I'll write more detail from a desktop later.

[nocturnix]

Thanks for the info! I would only attempt this if I some day come in possession of a good hurling returner/bandolier. So that should cut down on the weaponry management part. But i'm unsure what to train for own DPS. Shield use i guess...

Also what is the lower dps of targets? They get a penalty, or thrown dps is just lower across the board? Do you hurl aimed from hiding?

[Buckwheet]

They suffer from a ranged DS pushdown. If I had to start a hurler from scratch I would do a couple things.

1. 2h/Claid from 0-X during the first 30 days. No reason to go thrown at the start.
2. Try and train polearms and thrown.
3. Throw javelins that are 0x from the weapon shop and are ebladed, this also would let you swing if you could train polearms and thrown.
4. Have a warrior make you a sheath to store all the thrown items in to reduce weight.

[Whirlin]

The one concern I would have with your proposed build Buckwheet is that once the weapon is thrown, you're standing there with empty hands in offensive stance. I'm not sure the mechanics of throwing javelins and if they require just the one hand to operate them, but it may be worth considering hurling something like handaxes instead.. if they're even viable thrown weapons (no krakii at work)

[nocturnix]

1. Yes of course, all characters should do this even pures.
2. Hmm interesting idea.
3/4 - I would try to acquire a bandolier or returner someday to attempt this, but would not do it unless i found one. So weight/0x wouldnt be needed.

[Archigeek]

Using a shield will help a lot with DS. That's how I did it, but there are other options that make sense too, largely depending on class. As for being left standing there with no DS and an open hand, you're a square most likely, so it isn't really that much worse than usual. You will find it easiest though if you're able to train in multiple weapon skills. This is where a warrior has an advantage due to cheap training cost. Alternatively a sniping rogue would be fun.

[Buckwheet]

Javelins and spears can be used 1 handed with a shield. So you would not be standing there with no defense.

Handaxes are perfectly fine for being thrown. I just find that puncture to the eyes is a better killing method than trying to slash or crush skulls with an axe when you have lower thresholds of attack strength versus DS.

But if you are looking to have just an easy go of attacking stuff using a bow and arrow is by far more efficient with points and killing speed than thrown is. I personally just like thrown because it was easier to get a bandolier than it was an endless quiver. I also have 2.5x cap points. If I could find a better way of arrow management for several characters I would change to ranged in a heart beat.

[Drakefang]

Truly arrow management, and not even managing them, but collecting them is the single massive major flaw with ranged use.

A few things to keep in mind. With monks you have an excessively good class to hurl with. 2x or 3x dodge, 2x perception, 2x brawl and 2x hurling and you have an open hurling class with oustanding DS as far as any hurling profession goes. This class should be perfect for it with the possible exception of sniping from hiding. I've not investigated that build for a monk, yet. Perception will add to your hurling AS, I presume, as it does with ranged use. I have no idea if ambush (40+) ranks will add to a hurlers AS or not. I would use 1207 to knock a target over, take my weapon out and hurl it at a head/neck/eye, then collect and holster said weapon as I moved onto another creature. I would use Slippery Mind or another non-brawling specific stance cman, along with the cman that boosts Dex.

Just some ideas.

[Buckwheet]

This is what annoys me the most about hurling with my two guys. With a handaxe:

With a quick flick of your wrist, you deftly send a vultite handaxe into flight.
You throw a vultite handaxe at an Ithzir janissary!
AS: +563 vs DS: +368 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +36 = +260
... and hit for 54 points of damage!
Blow to head!
The vultite handaxe is deflected to one side, sailing to the ground.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

With my Javelin:

With a quick flick of your wrist, you deftly send a long-shafted rolaren javelin into flight.
You throw a long-shafted rolaren javelin at an Ithzir adept!
AS: +511 vs DS: +362 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +84 = +260
... and hit for 89 points of damage!
Strike through eye, the Ithzir adept is lobotomized!
The Ithzir adept falls to the ground in a crumpled heap.
The Ithzir adept no longer bristles with energy.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding an Ithzir adept suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves an Ithzir adept.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around an Ithzir adept.
An Ithzir adept becomes solid again.
The rolaren javelin is lodged in an Ithzir adept's left eye!
Roundtime: 4 sec.

Over 50AS difference between them and I would say that the number of times the guy hurling the handaxe runs into the crit not killing from the headshot while the lower AS guys kills is very often.

[nocturnix]

This is what annoys me the most about hurling with my two guys. With a handaxe:

With a quick flick of your wrist, you deftly send a vultite handaxe into flight.
You throw a vultite handaxe at an Ithzir janissary!
AS: +563 vs DS: +368 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +36 = +260
... and hit for 54 points of damage!
Blow to head!
The vultite handaxe is deflected to one side, sailing to the ground.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

With my Javelin:

With a quick flick of your wrist, you deftly send a long-shafted rolaren javelin into flight.
You throw a long-shafted rolaren javelin at an Ithzir adept!
AS: +511 vs DS: +362 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +84 = +260
... and hit for 89 points of damage!
Strike through eye, the Ithzir adept is lobotomized!
The Ithzir adept falls to the ground in a crumpled heap.
The Ithzir adept no longer bristles with energy.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding an Ithzir adept suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves an Ithzir adept.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around an Ithzir adept.
An Ithzir adept becomes solid again.
The rolaren javelin is lodged in an Ithzir adept's left eye!
Roundtime: 4 sec.

Over 50AS difference between them and I would say that the number of times the guy hurling the handaxe runs into the crit not killing from the headshot while the lower AS guys kills is very often.

Why is AS so much lower with a javelin?

[Buckwheet]

Why is AS so much lower with a javelin?

Its two different characters. One is a halfling, the other is a human so there is a strength/dex componet. One is able to wear heroism and bravery while the other is not. One wears fusion plate while the other doesn't, and their enhansives are different.

[nocturnix]

Ah, i see you are comparing the results with the same endroll. I didnt catch that at first.

So javelins seem to crit a bit harder naturally...

[Whirlin]

It sounds like it all comes down to TPs and which you can train based upon your growth schedule and initial stat placement. If you have the TPs for polearms rather than just for edged, then polearms are vastly superior... but also about twice the cost

[Archigeek]

It's the eye shot and puncture that make the difference and why Buckwheat is advocating javelins. I agree that javelins and spears are very viable. Unfortunately in bandoliers and returners, they aren't very available. But I suggest you try it out before you make that sort of an investment anyway.

[Buckwheet]

Its because a rank 4 puncture crit to the eye is capable of death. I need a rank 6 slash crit to cause the same death with a slashing weapon or a rank 5 with a crushing weapon. A handaxe has like a 60% chance to crush and a 40% chance to slash. A javelin is 100% puncture.

So someone who is a lot better at math than I am would have to break that down for us to determine at what point statistically does the handaxe become even with the javelin. I am assuming its going to just be at some AS threshold where you can 100% of the time guarantee a rank 6 crit with either slash or crush no matter what the end roll is.

Cue Mark or Latrin to the thread!

[nocturnix]

It's the eye shot and puncture that make the difference and why Buckwheat is advocating javelins. I agree that javelins and spears are very viable. Unfortunately in bandoliers and returners, they aren't very available. But I suggest you try it out before you make that sort of an investment anyway.

Yes I'm still mulling around with the whole concept. Basically the charachter would be built around the weapon.

But i'm already learning alot here, and this is what I am looking for, to understand the mechanics better. It sounds like spears and javelins/poles are the strongest for hurling, but the most difficult to find bandoliers of.

How do discus fair? I assume those are slash too, so similar to handaxes?

So far I guess its Poles > blunt > ohe for ambush hurling.

[Buckwheet]

It's the eye shot and puncture that make the difference and why Buckwheat is advocating javelins. I agree that javelins and spears are very viable. Unfortunately in bandoliers and returners, they aren't very available. But I suggest you try it out before you make that sort of an investment anyway.

In honestly there are a lot of people looking for bandoliers right now. I would say that both spear bandos and my javelin bando are definitely not going move any time soon, if ever. However, there are chain spears that could work, just be slower. Otherwise unfortunately they are looking at just hurling any off the shelf 0x weapon they could eblade.

Now if you want to be a bit clever you could just plan on fixskilling in May. Get the character high enough, buy a 5/6/7x axe or whatever and use a class that can bond to the weapon and swing it for kills. Then fix skill into hurling and you have a somewhat laggy, but possible to use returner. Since this is a new character we don't have to worry about spell burst so you can wear all the spells that aide in aiming along with all the AS boosters, and they probably don't have to worry about getting disarmed frequently with implosion voids or creatures that loot your body if you die.

It should give you plenty of time to worry about getting a returner or bandolier in the future.

[Archigeek]

It's the eye shot and puncture that make the difference and why Buckwheat is advocating javelins. I agree that javelins and spears are very viable. Unfortunately in bandoliers and returners, they aren't very available. But I suggest you try it out before you make that sort of an investment anyway. The only downside to the argument is that the eye shot is a lower percentage shot, and the follow up on the non-fatal head shot is an almost always fatal neck shot due to higher success probability and lower DS of a stunned critter with a cracked skull.

My first returner was a dagger, purchased during reallocation. Once I decided it was fun, and could see the potential I started buying more and better hurling gear.

Regarding perception, it does help, but the formula is different than ranged.

[nocturnix]

I assume then, logically, that slash and crush crits are superior for taking out the legs?

[Buckwheet]

Yes the follow up shot I always use is a neck shot. But it DOES happen that for whatever reason the axe doesn't get the kill shot, one of those "scrapes the skin" crits. With eyes you have two of them before you go for the neck.


I assume then, logically, that slash and crush crits are superior for taking out the legs?

You can get a knockdown with puncture I believe as low as a rank 2. I know a rank 4 to the leg is a nice stun and a knockdown. You get a knockdown with slash at a rank 4, crush is also rank 4.

[nocturnix]

I'm thinking a three step kill:

hide > hurl leg > stab eye? Could this work? I am not very experienced yet in this, if this approach is stupid. But then you could fully utilize max ohe/ohb and max hurling training.

[Vorpodu]

You can throw daggers. Use the cman Precision to set your damage type to piercing. You should have plenty of cman points because according to krakii AS = Thrown skill + ((STR Bonus + DEX Bonus)/2) + ((Perception ranks + CM ranks)/4). And going by this monk may be a very attractive prospect for a low level hurler. Same as a katar build just trade brawling for thrown, its the same TP wise. May have to sacrifice getting 1220 right away if you want to stay doubled in cmans and perception though.

EDIT:Just read that precision has no effect on hurling, so never mind that.

[Buckwheet]

You can throw daggers. Use the cman Precision to set your damage type to piercing. You should have plenty of cman points because according to krakii AS = Thrown skill + ((STR Bonus + DEX Bonus)/2) + ((Perception ranks + CM ranks)/4). And going by this monk may be a very attractive prospect for a low level hurler. Same as a katar build just trade brawling for thrown, its the same TP wise. May have to sacrifice getting 1220 right away if you want to stay doubled in cmans and perception though.

EDIT:Just read that precision has no effect on hurling, so never mind that.

It also has no effect on aimed shots which you really would only be doing with thrown.

[nocturnix]

Yah im still not sure which class I would go, I wanted to try something mutant like if possible i havent looked into TPs yet. Piercing daggers could be cool...

I guess the hide > hurl leg > stab eye would be too long of a chain, and expose you too much. Pure eye hurling from shadows sounds like the most fun/safe/effective.

[Buckwheet]

I also wanted to add that I am using 4x base enchant items. I have tried the 10x hammers and they are great, I also tried a 6x chainspear which was cumbersome to use because it has the pull action. But based on what I have seen you can use the 4x base enchant without much issue.

[nocturnix]

Can you show us how a typical kill goes?

hide, hurl at eye, loot, pick up spear, holster it? Or is there something weird with being too far away like ranged?

[Archigeek]

Bonding as a method of return is a poor solution, unless you like to stand around waiting. It's really only a reasonable idea for the situational hurler who only hurls at the occasional flying critter or something. And even then it's a poor substitute for a good hurling weapon.

As I said before, the biggest advantages are speed and DS push down. Trying to take advantage of bonding ignores half of your advantage, as you end up with a weapon that's slower than melee.

Discuses crush and swing like hammers, chakrams slash and swing like handaxes. They are both viable vs lightly armored foes, but won't do well vs chain or plate class.

One thing I use to great advantage is the ability to use a weapon more than one way. This doesn't come into play often, but I do use mstrike fairly often during invasions and bandit hunt, sometimes with an axe in each hand. But now we're getting into post cap development, where you gain the advantage of multiple attack styles.

[Archigeek]

It sound like you want to hide, go for sniping. I don't know how viable it is but it's pretty great to be able to attack without being seen at all. I know Karly does it with dual chrono mage daggers.

[nocturnix]

Yes, I was thinking about sniping. Possibly as a ranger. But this is all still theory only. And I dont know the mechanics very well yet.

[Buckwheet]

My hunt is this:

see creature
stop
rub bandolier
hurl target head
did it kill it? No.
rub bandolier
hurl target neck
did it kill it? Yes.
Loot

For the javelin character it is:
see creature
stop
rub bandolier
hurl target r eye
did it kill it? No.
rub bandolier
hurl target l eye
did it kill it? Yes.
Loot

I hurl from the open with no hiding as hiding is just adding in additional round time. This tactic should work around level 40 with just about any weapon base providing you can generate the AS to penetrate your foes defenses. The biggest question will be if your aimed shots are capable of hitting your target on any regular basis. I believe there are several spells that aide in aiming and since you are not dealing with all the stuff cap and post cap characters have to deal with such as spell burst there is no reason an investment in these scrolls/Magic items/spell bots would not be to your advantage.



Skill Name | Current Current | Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 302 202
Shield Use.........................| 302 202
Combat Maneuvers...................| 302 202
Thrown Weapons.....................| 316 216
Ambush.............................| 146 46
Physical Fitness...................| 302 202
Dodging............................| 403 303
Arcane Symbols.....................| 146 46
Magic Item Use.....................| 157 57
Harness Power......................| 150 50
Elemental Mana Control.............| 90 20
Survival...........................| 50 10
Disarming Traps....................| 406 306
Picking Locks......................| 403 303
Perception.........................| 302 202
Climbing...........................| 130 35
Swimming...........................| 150 50


I hunt with a 7x small shield, 8x plate, 5x bandolier(used to be 4x) and only the thrown enhansive bonus you see there. I am a GoS master.

[nocturnix]

Awesome thanks for the info!

[RSR]

Javelins don't require you to train polearms. They are actually one of the thrown base weapons. Spears require polearm training, not javelins.

I capped using hurling as my primary hunting style hurling hammers. Just aim for the head and get death crits pretty damned regularly.

[Buckwheet]

When you swing it it acts like a spear. So you need polearm training. If all you want to do is hurl, then just train thrown weapons like I did. The character I posted throws a handaxe and has no OHE training because I never swing with it.

[Buckwheet]

Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 250 150
Shield Use.........................| 312 212
Combat Maneuvers...................| 265 165
Thrown Weapons.....................| 321 221
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Dodging............................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 174 74
Magic Item Use.....................| 200 100
Harness Power......................| 161 61
Spirit Mana Control................| 2 0
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 105 25
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 30 6
Perception.........................| 302 202
Climbing...........................| 90 20
Swimming...........................| 140 40

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 20

Spell Lists
Paladin............................| 35


This is my other hurler. This hurler works very well because the magical skills allow him to wear heroism/bravery and others in a spell burst area with no fear of getting exploded.

He uses a 7x medium shield, 7x HCP fusion plate, 4x bandolier. Is a CoL master.

I don't even 1615 the opponents because there is no reason to make them kneeled or prone.