old player returning have a young wizard I need help with

[compmenacer]

It has been a long time since I have played my young wizard is sword and board. Was wondering if I should switch to runestaff or stick with the old style. Also A bit of help with his stats
and training. I think I set up his stats for growth from the looks of it. I have a fixskills available as well. Not sure where I was going with the build since it has been so long. I am pretty sure I was planning on joining that other society for the wracking. Looking for some constructive criticism.


(at level 11), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 20 4
Shield Use.........................| 58 12
Edged Weapons......................| 58 12
Physical Fitness...................| 58 12
Arcane Symbols.....................| 58 12
Magic Item Use.....................| 78 17
Spell Aiming.......................| 108 26
Harness Power......................| 58 12
Elemental Mana Control.............| 58 12
Perception.........................| 58 12
Climbing...........................| 20 4


Race: Half-Elf Profession: Wizard (shown as: Spellweaver)
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 143698 Level: 11
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 87 (18) ... 87 (18)
Constitution (CON): 57 (3) ... 57 (3)
Dexterity (DEX): 64 (12) ... 64 (12)
Agility (AGI): 80 (25) ... 80 (25)
Discipline (DIS): 79 (9) ... 79 (9)
Aura (AUR): 85 (17) ... 85 (17)
Logic (LOG): 67 (8) ... 67 (8)
Intuition (INT): 67 (8) ... 67 (8)
Wisdom (WIS): 76 (13) ... 76 (13)
Influence (INF): 40 (0) ... 40 (0)

[subzero]

Since you're only level 11, it might be good to just reroll if you can make good use of the first 30 days during which you can change stats a couple times and have unlimited fixskills. Low dex bonus, slow spirit regen, and a large spirit loss when wracking might make bolting a little more difficult. I leveled as warmage, but I think if I went the bolt route I'd focus on 500s for a good leech CS and rely on that over wracking. As to weapon choice, that's up to what you want to do with the guy, really. Weapon/brawl + shield, runestaff, and THW are all viable paths. I prefer runestaff for magic-heavy characters, but my wizard is trained in THW as well.

[compmenacer]

well I figured out the stat thing found the calculator and hes set for growth that I am fine with so I'm not worried about those anymore atleast. But still not sure what I was doing with his training considering I have no lores. But if I remember correctly lores didn't have much use a long time ago.What is the ds diffrence going from sword/board to more magical/runestaff route ?


Level 11 100
(CON) Constitut 57 80
(STR) Strength 87 100
(DEX) Dexterity 64 100
(AGL) Agility 80 100
(DIS) Discipline 79 100
(AUR) Aura 85 100
(LOG) Logic 67 100
(INT) Intuition 67 100
(WIS) Wisdom 76 100
(INF) Influence 40 80

[AbnInfamy]

At your level you'll see a reduction in DS because you won't be getting the inherent 20 DS from just using a shield.
Runestaff DS is calculated the same way as THW Parry. 8 Ranks of magical training per level is equivalent to 1x THW, with more ranks equating to more DS. You do not need to worry about powering down on magical skills for the sake of DS, you'll have enough in guarded/defensive stance.

You can compare the two DS results directly by heading to krakiipedia.org and looking up Parry and Block.

[AbnInfamy]

I would not use a fixskill under any circumstances. I would just start holding a runestaff and migrate those 12 ranks out of shield and edged over time. That's not a whole lot of time to wait.

[compmenacer]

Very good suggestion on not using the fixskill. I guess I just need to decide if I want to go runestaff or not it looks like it's not too significant of a ds lost but more of a loss on the bolt ds side from using a shield.

[Kastrel]

He is SOMEWHAT set for growth, but your Con is pretty bad. He will end up with a lot lower maximum health (a total of 10 less) because of it, and will chronically have low health as he levels. Just keep that in mind.

[Whirlin]

Sword and Board is not really a viable style anymore. I miss it a bit... but it's very GS3. I still remember having an old Fish Spine sword that I bought from a merchant, and being excited the level I could use imflass for the MASSIVE DS boost I got... Ahh, those were the times.

Times have changed though!

First and foremost, the leveling speed has changed greatly. You can now get to level 20 within your first 30 days. Titling is no big deal anymore (there's also way too many titles now). Even then, the game is pretty simple and straight forward until you start to fight things in the 50s and 60s (when critter combat maneuvers are introduced). The differences in AS and CS from the different builds won't become apparent til the 60s. Almost any build you can come up with would be good until then.

513 directly reduces melee AS to benefit spell AS, it also increases the + and - by .5 per MjE rank.

So where does that leave us? Still want to use a weapon? Lets talk about warmages as a training style.
Warmages are the polar opposite of a pure mage. They keep some magical training, but many of them will go so far as to bipass training in spell aiming in order to get an occasional CMAN rank. They use 2 handers typically, but I've also anecdotally heard of a couple attempts at brawlers. Haste is the main reason for this build. 51 ranks of MjE, 24 ranks of Air Lore, and bam, 1 second RT from a 6 second base. Knock something down then knock something out.

Runestaff builds are pure mages. Physical Fitness is pretty much the only physical thing you'll train in forever. A couple ranks in Armor, climbing, swimming, and then you're converting a ton of points to mental. 2.5x or higher in spells allow for insane spell AS and CS from 513, 425, and 430. Pair that up with Mana Leech (516) being dependent on MjE ranks, and you're looking at a nice leechable extendable mana pool.

Archer Mages are rare, but I'm one myself. I don't know how training would go at lower levels for it, as I converted to an archer with the first reallocation we were granted back in the GS3->GS4 days. 513 doesn't influence ranged AS, but the increased physical training makes our spell AS lack compared to a pure. Doesn't hit as hard as a 2H warmage either... just increased versatility.

I got sidetracked and still didn't answer your question. One other major change to Gemstone is the Lich Project. Basically tacking on additional capabilities into the front ends and allowing for a more robust and automated scripts. What does this mean? Stance offensive, prep 903, cast at crab, stance defensive, is now as simple as typing in 903 crab. The 1 typed line ahead is now a non-issue.

So what?

If you're a pure mage, there's no reason for you to ever be in offensive stance for more than a milisecond while the cast is going off. More often than not, you're looking at being in guarded. Of course, being hit by a CMAN, etc, can hurt, but it's gonna hurt no matter what.

If you're a warmage, archer, or OHE weilder, you're gonna be in offensive a lot more.

I've found most of the builds have a very similar DS in defensive stance. However, Runestaff DS in offensive is slightly below (maybe 3-5%) archery or warmage. I have no firsthand experience with warmages, but I believe that to be the case.

So, what about OHE + Shield?

OHE+Shield is going to be a point intensive training option that will not produce a strong alternative attacking method. I believe it will offer a stronger offensive DS compared to all of my above listed builds, but without having an alternative attacking method, you won't find yourself in offensive anyway. And no build is getting hit in defensive.

[Kastrel]

OHE+Shield is going to be a point intensive training option that will not produce a strong alternative attacking method. I believe it will offer a stronger offensive DS compared to all of my above listed builds, but without having an alternative attacking method, you won't find yourself in offensive anyway. And no build is getting hit in defensive.

A few years back I had a OHE+Shield Warmage with a fire flaring longsword, which I used to hunt trolls. Sounds like the perfect combination right? Nah. Even with the fire flares constantly setting off extra damage at 1 RT swings, the longsword was SOOOO plinky it was sick. Maybe a Falchion would have worked better, but I ended up fixskilling to two handed weapons. Just one example.

[compmenacer]

Ok so runestaff pure it is so what to put all those extra tps into lores ? Air looks interesting and is 10nhealth that big of a deal
With enhancives out that I read about I really just dont feel like rerolling but I will if their is enough reason too

[Kastrel]

If you were even twice your level, I'd understand, but you can get to level 11 in a week or two if you are devoted. Better that than regret the -10 health for life. Thats my take on it.

Air is useful for haste, and has a few other additional benefits, but it becomes less useful if you aren't a warmage.

[DaCapn]

If you're holding anything other than a runestaff with a wizard, it had better be a THW and you'd better be a warmage build. Drafix has done well with the ranged warmage build but it doesn't seem like a feasible option unless you're capped or thereabouts.

Wizards don't need lores at all. A splash of air for 505 and 511 can be nice. So can a boost to DF. But there's no reason at all to train in them until level 40-50ish.

Regarding migration vs. fixskill vs. reroll:
- If you intend to play this character long term and are at all having second thoughts about the stats, definitely re-roll (and ignore the options below). Fixstat potions are relatively expensive, level 11 takes <1 week, and you'll be able to have a good fresh start with free migration and be able to experiment as you get back into the swing of things.
- If you have 0 ranks of spell research as your post suggest, just use your fixskills. You'll get a new one in a few months.
- If you have sufficient SR ranks, migrate while hunting snow spectres. You can use a OHE for a while as long as you can get a bless or find silver falchions.

All that being said, if you reroll, you'll probably hit level 20 sooner and easier than you would as-is. You'll have instant migration (spell up for 4 hours, migrate skills for combat), can have higher exp absorption stats for 30 days, and can swing a claidhmore with haste. Bolt hunting is painful that early on.

Also, www.krakiipedia.org

[Kastrel]

You'll have instant migration (spell up for 4 hours, migrate skills for combat)

Thats the most disgusting thing I have ever heard and I hate myself for not thinking of it first.

*writes note to self to do that*

[compmenacer]

I have 2x spell training wizard and major elemental none in minor yet due to having a 50 sorcerer that I will be reactivating as well

[DaCapn]

Thats the most disgusting thing I have ever heard and I hate myself for not thinking of it first.

*writes note to self to do that*

It's not like you can do it for very long. I don't even think I've ever done it, though. The first time I made a wizard, I did pure from level 0. The second time, I had a second account anyway so it was easier to just spell them up with another character.

[AbnInfamy]

Thats the most disgusting thing I have ever heard and I hate myself for not thinking of it first.

*writes note to self to do that*

Oh my friend, it gets more disgusting than this.

I give myself maximum climbing ranks when traveling from WL to EN. I give myself maximum first aid and survival if I get a skinning bounty. Max Surv/Perception for foraging. My rogue would go 3x locksmithing after a hunt and then instant migrate back to OHE.

I enjoy seeing You have migrated (thousands) of points this cycle.

[Kastrel]

Somehow, all of those uses seem more reasonable. But to migrate just to spell up . . . seems so trivial!

[Whirlin]

If you're holding anything other than a runestaff with a wizard, it had better be a THW and you'd better be a warmage build. Drafix has done well with the ranged warmage build but it doesn't seem like a feasible option unless you're capped or thereabouts.

Wizards don't need lores at all. A splash of air for 505 and 511 can be nice. So can a boost to DF. But there's no reason at all to train in them until level 40-50ish.

Having been an archer mage since GS4... it's definitely feasible, but a bit TP starved early on. Maybe just start out unaimed and with a composite bow to keep the RT down. May have to wait and pick things up as stats increase, but definitely doable.

With stats set for maximum growth, you require level 83 (as a halfling) before you can afford:
1x ranged, 2x spells, 2x spell Aiming, 1x Harness, 1.5x MIU, 1.5x AS, 2x Perception, 1x EMC, 1x PF, 15 armor use, 50 climb, 50 swim.

So you just need to train with lower expectations, or with a little more short-term optimization... Perhaps only 1x MIU/AS early on, or perhaps no climb/swim/lores til later.

Drafix absolutely perfected it, and is one of the well known capped archer mages, but I was definitely an early adapter and a huge advocate ever since I picked it up. Of course, I left for about 10 years, he perfected it, etc.


24 ranks of Air Lore for -1 Haste RT. 20 ranks unlocks 505 bolt, which I highly recommend. The benefits are good for everyone, not just warmages. Don't really need much more than that. Fire if you want to use an eventual immolation build, which I would recommend for pures.

[compmenacer]

I just think 10 points of health matter that much to me. I have limited playing time so I may never see cap anyway. I should be able to find a piece of equipment to make up those 10 points shouldn't I ?Actually I was wrong on spell training this is what is currently at level 11.

Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...9
Major Elemental...11
Wizard Base.......5

[compmenacer]

also what would be a good hunting partner for him ? ranger ?

[Whirlin]

I've always found rangers to be good partners with wizards, however, a spirit pure, such as an empath or cleric would be a good alternative as well, and bring some nice enhancive magics with them. They've really seemed to have gotten pretty powerful over the years.

[AbnInfamy]

I've run a Wizard/Empath and they really destroy.

What I would suggest is run a swinger, that way you can always finish off the mobs and you're not left with two characters with 0 mana. Rangers are good, bards are good but have a lot of spell overlap. Warriors, Rogues, any of them.

[Whirlin]

The only thing I didn't like with rangers was the somewhat wonky mechanics with grouping and how it interacts with hiding... I'm sure it's likely been fixed by now, but I just remember problems with my ranger friend being hidden, or being leader and hiding when we enter a room, and inadvertently e-waving him... I'm sure a total non-concern for dualboxing.

Paladin may be an acceptable option as well, if the emphasis is more on having a non-mana dependent killer to follow you around

[Suppressed Poet]

Sword and board wizards are really outdated and not that feasable. Sure you can do it fine, but they are not great builds. I'd go for a 2h weapon warmage or a pure with a rune staff. If you want to be adventurous, you could go ranged or twc, but those will require more skill to hunt and tps will be tight until much later (post 50 trains).

Reason I say that about sword and board - A single ohe weapon is going to take too long to kill and vastly inferior to your bolts. As a wizard you really don't need the DS from a shield. It's doable, but it's wasted TPs on both in my opinion. You would be better off just spending that on more spells and holding a rune staff.

[DaCapn]

The only thing I didn't like with rangers was the somewhat wonky mechanics with grouping and how it interacts with hiding... I'm sure it's likely been fixed by now, but I just remember problems with my ranger friend being hidden, or being leader and hiding when we enter a room, and inadvertently e-waving him... I'm sure a total non-concern for dualboxing.

That was fixed relatively recently. I witnessed complaints about it for almost a decade with only "it would be too hard" as a reply. One day Finros was bored and was like "yeah, let me get that real quick..."

[lordsmo]

I've found most of the builds have a very similar DS in defensive stance. However, Runestaff DS in offensive is slightly below (maybe 3-5%) archery or warmage. I have no firsthand experience with warmages, but I believe that to be the case.



Just wanted to jump in and say that a typical runestaff build has a DS advantage over a THW build in all stances, and this gap grows with increased level. Most runestaff builds are ~2.5x in spells, whereas THW builds will be 2x, causing a substantial disparity is spell-generated DS. Also, 8 magic ranks per level generates parry DS equivalent to 1x THW but most runestaff builds have more than 8 magic ranks per level, further widening the gap. In offensive stance there is an additional small benefit due to runestaff DS enchant bonus not being modified by stance. The bolt DS difference is even more dramatic.

[Whirlin]

Just wanted to jump in and say that a typical runestaff build has a DS advantage over a THW build in all stances, and this gap grows with increased level. Most runestaff builds are ~2.5x in spells, whereas THW builds will be 2x, causing a substantial disparity is spell-generated DS. Also, 8 magic ranks per level generates parry DS equivalent to 1x THW but most runestaff builds have more than 8 magic ranks per level, further widening the gap. In offensive stance there is an additional small benefit due to runestaff DS enchant bonus not being modified by stance. The bolt DS difference is even more dramatic.

Yep, you're right. Never played a THW myself, but makes sense.

[AnticorRifling]

At what level range did you find DS to even be an issue though? Up to lvl 66 (when I stopped playing) I wasn't touchable by most monsters in full offensive stance. I would also say DS is more of an issue when a situation gets away from you but as long as you're able to control the combat DS isn't a huge issue.

[Whirlin]

I'm now 83, Archer-Mage... I use a statue and usually get a shot of 103 to get my DS up to remain completely unhittable. I've trained 50/67/51 W/Mn/Mj spell ranks, and MnE sucks for DS, so I kinda did that to myself.

Of course, I'm also pretty encumbered, which doesn't help... but I'm a scroll hoarder to keep access to spells to buff myself, because my DS sucks, because I'm encumbered... ITS A VICIOUS ENCUMBRANCE CYCLE!!!

For Bandits, I keep 919 (and 506) up to remain unhittable, but that's pretty much because I assume I'll always be ambushed, on the ground, and in offensive.

[compmenacer]

I will go full runestaff then and a ranger as either sword and board or archer. I won't get into ranger questions here though. but how does my wizard spell training look and where should I put the extra tps I will be taking from edged and shield ?

(at level 11), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 20 4
Shield Use.........................| 58 12
Edged Weapons......................| 58 12
Physical Fitness...................| 58 12
Arcane Symbols.....................| 58 12
Magic Item Use.....................| 78 17
Spell Aiming.......................| 108 26
Harness Power......................| 58 12
Elemental Mana Control.............| 58 12
Perception.........................| 58 12
Climbing...........................| 20 4

Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 11

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 9

Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 5
Training Points: 68 Phy 45 Mnt

[Whirlin]

I'm an advocate of double leathers, and dealing with the hindrance... but that's entirely subjective, and I know some people hate it.

I'd go up to 2x Arcane Symbols and MIU, bump up to 1x in lores (I still recommend 24 air, then swap over to fire), and then the rest into spell research.

As for spell training, given where you are, I'd set a goal of having 520, 430, and 913. Given your current spell research, I'd prioritize 513 > 913 > 520 > 430.
Then once you have those, MjE equal to your level, WIZ 50 and MnE 75... Wiz 50 lets you safely do 7x enchants.

[audioserf]

While I agree that armor is subjective, I do disagree with a couple of other points Whirlin made.

1x AS and MIU are sufficient and will get you all the way to cap without any problems. That frees up TPs to triple train in spells. The only reason to train past 1x in either of those skills is if you are really gung-ho about enchanting as highly as possible as early as possible.

Either 20 Air Lore (for Tonis bolt) or 24 Air Lore (for the haste RT reduction) is all the lore you need. Fire lore is not going to do a lot for you unless you have an insane amount of it, and it's best combined with an Immolation build (high level, high 500s training for CS, plus 202 Fire Lore). You can decide if you want more lores after you cap. At low levels, all training in lores does is slow down your spell research.

As a pure, you want as close to 3x spells as you can manage. I managed to cap with 2.75x spells and that's with 27 ranks of Armor User (I love my vhcp leather breastplate) and 1x PF training.

Good luck.

edit: keep Harness Power at-level. Over training only yields 1 mana point and is a waste of TPs.

[Whirlin]

I saw Methais' post about a 27.7% instant death rate at 202 ranks of Fire Lore... but I didn't realize that it wasn't worth going after until post-cap... I thought it'd still be an effective hunting method for a pure at 90+ with 50+ ranks of fire lore. Is there anymore information on death crit rate at various fire-lore levels?

Maybe I'll fixskills out of some fire ranks myself as an archer and throw them into more spell ranks if it's that ineffective unless you're all in...

[audioserf]

At 19 mana per shot, Immolation is very mana intensive, even with Leech at your disposal. To use it, you want the biggest CS you can muster (over-training in MjE) and a lot of fire lore (101 minimum) to get additional damage cycles to increase the chance of a crit kill. Immolation's leathality is entirely end-roll dependent, from what Rimalon has posted on the matter.

If you are not training to be a full-fledged Immolation wizard, I think fire lore is a waste of TPs.

[lordsmo]

At what level range did you find DS to even be an issue though? Up to lvl 66 (when I stopped playing) I wasn't touchable by most monsters in full offensive stance. I would also say DS is more of an issue when a situation gets away from you but as long as you're able to control the combat DS isn't a huge issue.

I've been very vulnerable in offensive stance for as long as I can remember. I'm self-spelled ~80% of the time, using statues for bandit bounties, and getting colors when someone happens to cast them. In the bowels, stuff can graze me in guarded stance if I'm not running 919, and a 'graze' is sometimes a 4x mstrike with a retardedly crit-weighted hammer. What you said about controlling the combat is right on the mark. If the critters are taking any actions other than falling down you're doing it wrong.

[lordsmo]

At 19 mana per shot, Immolation is very mana intensive, even with Leech at your disposal. To use it, you want the biggest CS you can muster (over-training in MjE) and a lot of fire lore (101 minimum) to get additional damage cycles to increase the chance of a crit kill. Immolation's leathality is entirely end-roll dependent, from what Rimalon has posted on the matter.

If you are not training to be a full-fledged Immolation wizard, I think fire lore is a waste of TPs.

Do we know what the exact lore thresholds for guaranteeing the 3rd and 4th damage cycles? I vaguely remember reading it was 50 ranks for the 3rd, but I can't for the life of me find the thread any more.

All I know if that at 0 fire lore, 415 is just outright better than 519.

[Kastrel]

Do we know what the exact lore thresholds for guaranteeing the 3rd and 4th damage cycles? I vaguely remember reading it was 50 ranks for the 3rd, but I can't for the life of me find the thread any more.

All I know if that at 0 fire lore, 415 is just outright better than 519.

I'd like to know this as well.

[AbnInfamy]

I'd like to know this as well.

http://carabele.com/LoreBenefits.htm

[audioserf]

All I know if that at 0 fire lore, 415 is just outright better than 519.

This is absolutely correct. 415 is my primary hunting spell in Nelemar versus everything corporeal. It just smashes shit out. Frequent one-shot kills.

[Whirlin]

So... I did some analysis last night of 50 fire lore ranks versus the 9 spell ranks that it would net.

Assuming the spell ranks would directly turn to AS through MjE training, in terms of damage, they were about equal versus leather, and fire lore pulled ahead of Scale/Plate. This is due to higher marginal returns when adding a flat value to a lower base DF (.05 is larger benefit when the base is .245 than .667). For the values of leather/cloth, fire edged out under extreme rolls of 300+, but honestly, at that point, it doesn't really matter. But, this did not take into account additional crit tiering from having the +9 AS... it was a straight damage calculation.

I was surprised at how substantial the DF increase was on Scale/Plate... but that was also purely from a damage perspective.

As a result of our discussion, I dropped my fire lores and picked up 11 more spell ranks myself, finishing off MnE, and gaining about 7 DS in the process. So no more spell research AS boosts for Archery!

And Abn beat me to the post for the lore charts, the breakpoints were 50/125/2...225? I don't think it's completely unviable to use 519 at 50+ ranks of fire lore... but if the chance for instant death is dependent on end-roll like you were saying (I didn't find the research), then it would make more sense to prioritize maxing spell research before going for fire ranks... and that's definitely well past cap.

[Hightower]

While I agree that armor is subjective, I do disagree with a couple of other points Whirlin made.

1x AS and MIU are sufficient and will get you all the way to cap without any problems. That frees up TPs to triple train in spells. The only reason to train past 1x in either of those skills is if you are really gung-ho about enchanting as highly as possible as early as possible.

Either 20 Air Lore (for Tonis bolt) or 24 Air Lore (for the haste RT reduction) is all the lore you need. Fire lore is not going to do a lot for you unless you have an insane amount of it, and it's best combined with an Immolation build (high level, high 500s training for CS, plus 202 Fire Lore). You can decide if you want more lores after you cap. At low levels, all training in lores does is slow down your spell research.

As a pure, you want as close to 3x spells as you can manage. I managed to cap with 2.75x spells and that's with 27 ranks of Armor User (I love my vhcp leather breastplate) and 1x PF training.

Good luck.

edit: keep Harness Power at-level. Over training only yields 1 mana point and is a waste of TPs.


The point about lore is a good one. 20-24 ranks of air lore is all I could really justify for a leveling pure wizard. Any more lore than that or any significant amount of training in other types of lore prior to the cap does seem counterproductive. It just doesn't offer enough to justify the cost while leveling. I also agree with 1x MIU/AS while leveling.

The one area I would disagree is harness power. At the point where you're able to bring 400s/500s up to level and have at least 13 ranks in 900s, if you're like me you're still low enough level that you could use more mana. I don't see a problem with putting some extra points into harness power until you start to feel a little more comfortable. At the point where you feel you have enough mana, stop training harness power and then, if you reach a point where you have excess mana you can start dialing it back down to 1x.

~Taverkin