Redux, Spell Research, CHECK IN

[DaCapn]

I have been working on some spell research goals recently (rogue, 202 PF) and have been noticing that I've been taking some tough hits. Before doing a bandit task this time, I checked in at the inn. From what I understand, this is required to calculate and apply any new redux. My thinking was that maybe training in spell research drops your redux and requires recalculation. After checking in, it seemed like there might have been an improvement. It's seems somewhat plausible that this might be a measure to prevent people from exploiting redux by manipulating the order of their training (say... capping, fixskilling to nil, boosting your redux skills, checking in at the inn, then adding spell research ranks to avoid penalties).

I don't have enough data for quantitative analysis. It's not well controlled since I'm wearing padded armor with sigil of major protection active and I'm going against bandits almost exclusively which will get some weighting from ambush.

Just wondering if this is known or has been suspected to be the case by anyone else? And, if no one has considered this before, there's definitely people who will want to think about it.

[Rolis]

Easy enough to check I suppose. To test your theory, I have a warrior in his 20's with high amounts of physical skills and no spells. So he surely has redux. I have not checked into the inn with this character in a long time.. maybe prior to level 10 if at all. If he has redux from hits taken, then that should prove that checking into the inn is not required. I would suspect that these values if nothing else are checked when logging into the game. It would seem to be a large oversight to only update redux upon check in.

[Suppressed Poet]

I'm interested in this testing. I have to assume that is a myth to recieve redux you have to checkin. If that is true, shame on simutronics for being absolutely retarded.

[Suppressed Poet]

I also thought it was common knowledge that spell ranks drop redux?

[Rolis]

Someone did some research once showing a warrior/rogue capped can train in 4 or 7 spells with zero impact on redux. After that it would lessen redux. I can't remember who shared this data but it was a long time ago and may have changed.

[Rhovan]

I didn't check in to an inn for at least 50 levels, but don't ever remember any jumps in redux, so I'd guess thats not it. I can say that as a capped rogue with a good amount of physical skills and 33 ranks of spells, I haven't really been bothered by hits to my redux though.

[Rolis]

Just checked my redux with calcredux taking about 40+ hits. My redux stands around [calcredux: Average redux is 23.892%] at level 21. Its a bit higher than expected but I am pretty sure that this character has not checked into the inn in a while.

[DaCapn]

There were some changes (bugfix) to the redux and spell penalty system 2 years ago.


I also thought it was common knowledge that spell ranks drop redux?
It's not so dramatic: http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?45868-Empath-Redux&p=1098386#post1098386

[Buckwheet]

Didn't this happen to WRoss? His empath had redux and then he checked in and it went away?

[DaCapn]

Didn't this happen to WRoss? His empath had redux and then he checked in and it went away?
Well, he noticed he had massive redux as an empath, tested a bit, bugged it, and after some testing, it was found that if you were 2x spells at cap, you had no spell penalty to redux. The bug got fixed. The full story is in the above linked thread.

For myself, I'm speculating that training in SR zeros out your redux (or something along those lines) so you have to check in at the inn and have it re-calculated.

[Suppressed Poet]

Huh - well I'll be damned. Ill just make a habit to checkin after every train just to be safe. It takes no effort to so, and I'm not familiar enough with mechanics to speculate if that is neccissary to recalculate. I haven't checked in with my bard in a very long time (like maybe late 20s early 30s). I probably wasn't eligible for redux at that point so I wonder if doing this will be the difference between none and some. About 1.25x PF and 1x spells at level 49.

[Archigeek]

For myself, I'm speculating that training in SR zeros out your redux (or something along those lines) so you have to check in at the inn and have it re-calculated.

I can tell you with certainty that this isn't true in a complete sense anyway. There are a number of warriors who have spell training, (myself included), and as far as I know none of us are at zero redux. I recall seeing formulas for how much spell training reduces redux, but I can't find one in all my notes and Krakiipedia indicates that it is currently unknown. My recollection of older formulas was that up to a certain point it would have no effect at all, but once past that point the effect would get worse quickly. Spell level probably makes a difference too, as in, training once each in the minor spiritual and elemental circles would result in less change than twice in minor spiritual, though I don't think either of those two examples would cause any loss at all.

I currently have 7 ranks of minor spiritual at cap and it doesn't seem to make any measurable difference.

[Bobmuhthol]

I really doubt checking in matters. I definitely know that adding a spell and not checking in does not ruin redux. I remember reading somewhere that the spell penalty was forgiven at a rate of something like 1 spell per 20 levels for a square. That was probably with the 160 cap, so I'm not sure what it would be now.

[DaCapn]

Adjusted RF = RF*(0.98)^(SR/5)
RF: Redux factor
SR: Spell research ranks
(I linked to the post which shows the data earlier)

Maybe I'll test it out in a month or so when I have enough TPs for a few more spell ranks.

[Whirlin]

Hey Capn, what's the equation to convert RF to Redux? I saw the graph on Krakii, but I don't remember an equation that went along with it, and no access to it at work.

[DaCapn]

Hey Capn, what's the equation to convert RF to Redux? I saw the graph on Krakii, but I don't remember an equation that went along with it, and no access to it at work.

To my knowledge, the relationship between redux points and redux factor is not known.

I've got a list of projects that gets larger and larger (and more postponed by my newly discovered addiction to post-cap exp). One of them is taking all of the redux notes I have from conversations with Mark and putting them in into a clear, readable format on KP.

[Whirlin]

Well, I'm uncertain how we can make the jump that the spell penalty is a reduction of Redux Factor, when the correlation between redux factor and redux is unknown, yet the collected data points are in redux.

Don't misunderstand, I'm totally at awe for all the work you've put into this, and thankful for all your hard work, I'm just trying to further understand and quantify redux myself, so I can complete my training plan for a new pally.

[DaCapn]

Well, I'm uncertain how we can make the jump that the spell penalty is a reduction of Redux Factor, when the correlation between redux factor and redux is unknown, yet the collected data points are in redux.
I'm pretty sure Latrinsorm uploaded that graph to KP (not positive on that, I know I have confused him with Celephais before). But that graph correlates the experimentally determined "redux factor" (which isn't clearly defined in the article) to "redux points" (which is clearly defined in the article). In terms of combat, "redux factor" comes into play during the critical rank calculation stage. It can be determined by analyzing the critical rank and damage from a series of attacks (critical randomization, natural padding, and natural weighting make this more irritating). So far that I've seen, people use "redux" and "redux factor" interchangeably.

For the spell penalties data, a fixed number of "redux points" were trained on a single capped character. Then, the "redux factor" was determined with the character having 0,1,2,3,...,202 spell research ranks. It looks pretty concrete but that's only really an estimation when you think about it. Why does redux drop by a factor of 0.98 per 5 spell research ranks? Is it really a somewhat arbitrary constant? Or does it have some relationship to the stats of the character (maybe it's 0.95 per 5 ranks on some other character)?

All of these factors make redux the sort of thing that you shouldn't really attempt to explicitly maximize, just something you invest in with high/medium/low priority and then determine experimentally if you're curious.


Don't misunderstand, I'm totally at awe for all the work you've put into this, and thankful for all your hard work, I'm just trying to further understand and quantify redux myself, so I can complete my training plan for a new pally.
I have yet to make a substantive contribution towards any research. No credit/awe/praise is due. I've compiled known information to make it more digestible, but that's about it. Sometimes I throw up some stats and number crunching but we're talking an hour or so of work start to finish.

[Suppressed Poet]

I deeply regret checking in.

There is a bug that sends my bard to the rename pavilion whenever he checks in.

The last GM that bailed me out said they fixed that, but apparently that is not the case. And of course there are no GMs on duty ever and he is just stuck in there right now.

..

How much, roughly, would a level 49 bard fetch that you could name whatever you want?

[Suppressed Poet]

Alright...I'm sick of waiting around and decided to give up and rename.

Steinbeck is no more.

I will hense forth be know as Richadams.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm pretty sure Latrinsorm uploaded that graph to KP (not positive on that, I know I have confused him with Celephais before).Yeah it is hard to keep track, but the C name I post under is ClydeR. ER WAIT

I coined "redux factor" and cited data in .xyz form instead of xy.z% form when we found out that DFRedux had become Damage Redux, I wanted to make it clear that something new was going on. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
Alright...I'm sick of waiting around and decided to give up and rename.

Steinbeck is no more.

I will hense forth be know as Richadams.Should have gone with Stephenking Theauthorfrommaine. There are plenty of people with that name IRL, people who find it jarring are just whiners. :hug2:

[Suppressed Poet]

Should have gone with Stephenking Theauthorfrommaine. There are plenty of people with that name IRL, people who find it jarring are just whiners. :hug2:

Yeah, kind of the point. :)

Hey - why are you always telling me I should cry and be in touch with my emotions?

Oddly enough, Killerbunnies was taken.

[Suppressed Poet]

Let the people who have left me hate-mail for my character name rejoice!

[Latrinsorm]

Hey - why are you always telling me I should cry and be in touch with my emotions?I have a bet outstanding that in just seven days I can make you a man.

Also it will be better!

[Suppressed Poet]

I have a bet outstanding that in just seven days I can make you a man.

Also it will be better!

Only if you agree to eat a royale with cheese off my naked body after having unprotected sex.

[Latrinsorm]

...too far. Reported.