Experience change

[Gokkem]

As I was reading this I was really loving it. Then I read it again and realized I missed something big......the hard cap.

So what simu is saying....100 is it, they won't even put effort into building higher level area. This just...shocks me. I'm so dissapointed I don't even know what to say.

Obviously they are catering to the younger characters. Are the older characters that much of a minority that simu doesn't care? Or are they that much trouble? Is all the profit coming from the younger characters? I just don't get it so I'm asking all you guys to give your insight.

Is the GSIV experience change good or bad? Why?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Gokkem
As I was reading this I was really loving it. Then I read it again and realized I missed something big......the hard cap.

So what simu is saying....100 is it, they won't even put effort into building higher level area. This just...shocks me. I'm so dissapointed I don't even know what to say.

Obviously they are catering to the younger characters. Are the older characters that much of a minority that simu doesn't care? Or are they that much trouble? Is all the profit coming from the younger characters? I just don't get it so I'm asking all you guys to give your insight.

Is the GSIV experience change good or bad? Why?

95% of the playing population plays prior to level 50 (Just a guess here) Should they divert resources to come up with new hunting areas/new towns/new critters for that very VERY small percentage of players that are above 150 right now? Should they simply continue to develop new areas and levels... even though the game breaks down at those heights?

Everyone that plays now will be able to hunt and gain experience. The new 'level 100' which is a hard cap is said to be about level 1600 in GS3... I doubt that we will see anyone hit that level anytime soon.

[Taernath]

I'm disappointed in the hard cap as well. It seems to say, "this is the end of the game, past this there's not much else to accomplish." Yeah you can roleplay, but a lot of the draw of GS3 for me is the feel that there really is no limit for advancement.

95% of the playing population plays prior to level 50 (Just a guess here)

I think it's closer to 75% if you don't include trial accounts and locker characters. That seems to be supported by their previous experience change release:

http://www.play.net/images/gs3/info/levelflow.gif

[Gokkem]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

95% of the playing population plays prior to level 50 (Just a guess here) Should they divert resources to come up with new hunting areas/new towns/new critters for that very VERY small percentage of players that are above 150 right now? Should they simply continue to develop new areas and levels... even though the game breaks down at those heights?

Everyone that plays now will be able to hunt and gain experience. The new 'level 100' which is a hard cap is said to be about level 1600 in GS3... I doubt that we will see anyone hit that level anytime soon.

Good points, however I think a solution could be reached to prevent the game from breaking down at higher levels. Maybe not though since simu has given up.

I don't doubt that 90-95% of the character base is under 50, but how many of those character are just recycled by old players like myself? I mean, sure I have half a dozen characters under 50, but my main is 123; and I know I'm not the only one. So althought you look at the numbers, of my characters 1 in 6 is over 100, but this hard cap still pisses me off. I think they should at least make an effort. I take it as them giving up.

Now I haven't totally researched the experience conversion, but I don't think level 100 under GSIV is equal to level 1600 in GSIII. My 123 ranger (unless I messed up) will be 83 after the changes. At my calculations, 17 levels times 112500 is about 1.9 mil exp. 1.9 mil exp is about 38 levels under the current system. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the over-cap people now will re-align straight to 100.

[Edited on 05-08-03 by Gokkem]

[Taernath]

I think Parkbandit accidentally put an extra 0 at the end, level 160 will equate to about 100 in GSIV.

[Gokkem]

Ahhh, that would explain it. Thanks for clarifying.

I'll say it once again: I don't like the appearance that simu has given up on the older character base (which is also generally speaking the longest subscribers). Can they not come up with a solution to the high end game breaking down other than giving up? Why not?

[Black Jesus]

the hard cap is stupid. There is no point in redoing GS and keeping a cap at the same place where it already is. GS3 works decently all the way up to 160 as it is, by revamping everything I'd have thought there would be a thought at upward expansion. This is the beginning of the end though. GS will lose some players who do not want to make the switch to an entirely new system and they will certainly not pick up many new long term ones because they are redoing it. It's only a matter of relatively short time until attrition kills them.

[Sadnama]

I wasn't in favor of the soft cap. Im sure not in favor of a hard cap. George

[Gokkem]

LOL I guess this is what we get for fighting the last proposed exp system. It went from being painstakingly long, to impossible for us to level at high end. Dang.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Taernath
I think Parkbandit accidentally put an extra 0 at the end, level 160 will equate to about 100 in GSIV.

Actually.. I didn't.

Tsoran posted on the Official Boards that level 100 in GS4 would equate to level 1600 something in GS3 and that it would take close to 9 years of 24/7 power hunting to reach that level. No one is even half way there currently.

Also, my 95% of the population plays under level 50 was talking about level 50 in GS4... and I'm pretty comfortable with that number. Don't count locker characters or trial characters.. you would still see that number as pretty solid I would imagine.

No, he said that it would take 9 years and the equivalent of 1600 levels to max out all of a character's given skills, which is impossible under the old system as well....

[Sadnama]

Havent read Tsoran's post so i dont know how he got his number, but Sadnama who is 151 would be almost 96 under the new system. Those four extra levels, would not be like 1449 in GS3

[Sadnama]

As a sidenote today, My wife and I cancelled our accounts. Effective the next billing date, Sadnama and Castijama wont be seen anymore. To all of my friends, I had a blast and feel i got my moneys worth. Not saying i wont be back, but this is the first month since Gemstone went to the web that i wont be paying.

[Zanagodly]

Hey it was good to meet you Sadnama when I was out in Vegas. Good luck to you and your wife.

[Gokkem]

I haven't stopped billing yet, but very close. I'm eligible for 3rd year premie gift at this time and don't really want to lose that gift, but getting to where I just don't care anymore. I guess that's good way for simu to keep me payin for premium; by putting off premie gifts even longer.

I wish you and your wife the best George, we've had alot of fun together in GS. Next time I'm in Vegas I'm gonna bug ya!

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Sadnama
Havent read Tsoran's post so i dont know how he got his number, but Sadnama who is 151 would be almost 96 under the new system. Those four extra levels, would not be like 1449 in GS3

Ah, I think you are correct.

The problem with all D&D type games is that you must balance out the game. You must:

A) Make the initial character weak, but not too weak as it is not fun to play.

B) Make the game enjoyable for both the casual gamer and the hardcore hunter.

If you say "Ok, a warrior character, starting off at this point will be this powerful by this age. His end stats will max out at this level. Will he have fun during the time inbetween?"

Gemstone III has been live now for what.. 13 years? The basic platform of this game was never designed to be played this long... it breaks down currently past 75. I think they've done a great job patching it here and there to make it a fun game for most folks.

However... for the good of the game maybe they actually have no problem with some of the uber characters actually leaving. You cannot please everyone everytime and no matter what they propose, you will hurt someone's feelings to the point they leave.

So to fix the problem they will need to:

A) Lower the initial roll for all characters.. probably down to say 580 or so. This will extend the game probably up to say 150 levels.

B) Slow the growth intervals for all stats.

The game essentially is.. the game. The way you train, level, grow is essentially the same now as it was when it started. If you want them to change that.. go to one of their other games.. because they did. You either need to slow the growth, start at a much lower power level or deal with the hardcap. I personally think the hard cap is the best way for 95% of their paying customers.

[Gokkem]

I wish I knew what % of paying customers own a character over 100. I think it's higher than 5%, as a matter of fact I'd say it would be closer to 15-20%, but that is just a guess on my part. I have no evidence to back this up.

I sure hope they don't want the 'uber' characters as you put it to leave. Those are primarily the people like myself who've had accounts active for over 5 years. Why punish your longest-paying customers. In this age of DAoC, EQ, ShadowBane, etc etc their new customer base has to be growing at a snail's pace, if at all.

[Bestatte]

Originally posted by Gokkem
I sure hope they don't want the 'uber' characters as you put it to leave. Those are primarily the people like myself who've had accounts active for over 5 years. Why punish your longest-paying customers. In this age of DAoC, EQ, ShadowBane, etc etc their new customer base has to be growing at a snail's pace, if at all.

Oh gimme a break. You know, I've heard this left and right, and it just doesn't wash. The "uber" characters are being played, in mass quantities, by people who pay cash to purchase those characters. There are exceptions, but don't even try to whine about the longevity of who's playing what.

It's a game. Run by people who have the right to SHUT IT DOWN if it pleases them, and where will all these "uber character players" be then, huh? They'll be out a crapload of money, and nothing to show for it.

There are also people who have played WELL over 5 years, whose characters aren't even level 50 yet. Simu certainly isn't punishing THEM.

So all you griefers whining about how these changes are going to affect YOU, I say tough noogies. The game wasn't created for you anyway, so get over it. If it bothers you that much, leave, and start over somewhere else. Just remember starting over somewhere else means learning a whole new system - kinda like what you'll have to do with GSIV, eh?

[Weedmage Princess]

Wow..that was a little harsh...

[Taernath]

That's Bestatte for you, heh. I never liked the belief "if you don't like it leave", or "SIMU can do whatever they want because they own GS".

[Bestatte]

It isn't a belief, Taernath. It's a very basic fact.

You -can- leave, if things get bad enough. Many people already have, and I'm sure many people will do so in the future.

Simu DOES own the game and CAN do what they want with it. That doesn't mean they will, but they can, and no amount of believing otherwise will change that fact.

The fact is, they owe their long-time players...

Nothing. Not a thing. They retain the right to do as they please, when they please, with the exception of whatever is covered by their NDAs and legal confidentiality issues regarding customer accounts.

Does that make them the bad guy? Nope. It makes them a business, no different from any other business.

They're in it for the profit, whether you like it or not, and if they believe a change will result in more profit, they will gladly lose a few dozen long-term players in exchange for that profit.

Doesn't mean you have to like it, but it does mean you have to accept the first fact - that you -can- leave if you so desire.

[Numba 1 Stunna]

You know what I think... If someone had half a brain, since everyone is leaving GS because they liked the 'old way'... Why doesn't someone make a game that was like GS in the 'old days' that everyone can play? I'm talking like a copy of the kind of GS about 4-5 years ago... When I started playing. To me, those were the best times... That's when Gemstone was it's funnest. And I am sure, that myself and a lot of other people would pay to have a game just like old time GS. And if you're gonna bring up the copy right infringement thing... There are ways around that :-) Because hey, they didn't copyright game mechanics or the term 'rogue' heh

[draconis nematoda]

Originally posted by Sadnama
As a sidenote today, My wife and I cancelled our accounts. Effective the next billing date, Sadnama and Castijama wont be seen anymore.

Damn, damn, and damn. Des is still not recovered from Casti leaving, and now you're off too.
You two take care of yourselves. I'll be missing you guys as much as Des will be missing Sad and Casti.
If you two ever get bored with all the lights and glitter of Sin City, cross the border for a bit and come visit the Land of Zion. Maybe next year I'll make it to VegasCon and come see you two.

Ray

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Gokkem
I wish I knew what % of paying customers own a character over 100. I think it's higher than 5%, as a matter of fact I'd say it would be closer to 15-20%, but that is just a guess on my part. I have no evidence to back this up.

I sure hope they don't want the 'uber' characters as you put it to leave. Those are primarily the people like myself who've had accounts active for over 5 years. Why punish your longest-paying customers. In this age of DAoC, EQ, ShadowBane, etc etc their new customer base has to be growing at a snail's pace, if at all.

For every player with a character over 100.. there is a customer with 10 characters under 100. I personally play about 11 different characters.. the oldest one being about 73. They are not locker characters or trial characters.

I still think your 20% is seriously overestimated... but like you I have no hard evidence either.

And Bestetter has a point.. those 'uber' characters are not what I would consider Simu's "best customers"... they simply either powerhunted their way to that level or they purchased the character. I know perhaps a handful of older characters that are the exception to the rule... that have progressed at a typical pace and have maintained the same player.

[Whatever]

Personally, I feel it's about damn time they finally grew some and put a cap on the game. It's been shown over the past 5 years or so that the game cannot be balanced while still open-ended. It was a nice idea in theory, but it obviously ended up not working.

Every game I have played, pretty much, has a hard level cap. 100 is fairly generous, considering many games have a cap of level 50 or 60.

No one is saying the high-level characters aren't worth the same as the younger people.. but having high-level characters like Drizzsdt and Malok is indeed unbalancing for the game in many regards.

I guess it might be nifty cool to be level 200 and way more powerful than everyone else in the game. However, I don't know any people around this level that don't abuse their power because they *know* no one will be able to touch them.

Frankly, I think Drizzsdt crying on the official boards is hilarious. He has caused a great deal of harassment and bullying toward many people. He has a following of suck-ups that think he's the coolest thing since sliced cheese, who defend his rude and bully-ish behavior. Frankly, fame whores will do anything to let some of that rub off on them. You can't tell me you haven't seen Drizzsdt be a complete ass for incredibly little, or no, provocation.

I think it will be a positive thing for the game, where there is much less of a difference between the extremely high-level folks and the rest of us. After all, how fair is it that none of us can ever get as old as them and give them some payback? Why is okay for them now to be perpetually untouchable and continue behaving however they like because they have a massive CS/TD/AS/DS to back it up?

Add to that that many of these uber-level characters are not even owned by the original player. They swap hands like trading cards, which even further breaks down the balance in the game.

[CrystalTears]

Well said, Whatever.

[Sweets]

My kudos to Whatever as well.


Sums up everything very well.

[CrystalTears]

Hey Whatever, don't take my signature the wrong way. :D

[Gokkem]

OK 'Whatever' you made alot of good points. I guess my biggest concern is what will be done at the end-game level. I hear that EQ has an excellent end game (aka high levels), and I started playing DAoC just for the end game, realm vs realm raids, etc. For these 2 games, that seems to be where the fun REALLY starts, once you get to cap. What is GS going to do for those people at the cap? Create more storylines or role playing opportunities behind the barrier? Create a type of 'questing' system to gain alternate experience away from the hunt/rest circle? Maybe open up coordinated PvP areas?

If GS is going to have a hard level cap, they HAVE to do something to retain those at the cap. No, I'm not talking about 1/1 tp's every 2500 exp either. It has to be something more than that.

[Whatever]

Heh, thanks. And I've seen your signature, CT, so I know it's not personal.

I agree with you that there needs to be something 'at the end' to hold the interest of capped players. In a sense, we have some of these things, if you look at being able to forge, cobble, or fletch. Admittedly, the repetition of these things is kind of a turn-off, as well as being fairly anti-social activities, but just pointing out that there are diversions out there.

I think I am most concerned with them capping the game so that (hopefully) we can see an end of the GP stuff, and more of the flushing out of already-existing things.. spell lists, creatures and hunting areas, new areas and towns, etc.

I would be interested in a statistic of how much of the GS population these characters make up, the ones that would be capped at reallocation. If it's a relatively minor amount, I think the emphasis at that point should be working to flush out and finish things already in place. If it's a significant portion, I agree the capped characters need some sort of a diversion.

I like the idea of a combat arena, though I foresee it being considered too much work, and also against their long-standing policy of not approving of PvP.

Now that they revamped the experience and levels system, I'm much happier and actually looking forward to the changes. I'm going to lose out in some ways, but in other ways, I see great benefits. I'm willing to lose out on minor things for those things that seem incredibly positive.

[Savanae]

My only real problems with the changes are the increase to skill cost, If they are not doing the 2 bonus points instead of one deal. Also not letting my rogue tripple in her lock smithing skills has me a bit bothered. I haven't looked at the official boards this week so I dont know if they have changed their stance on this yet. Any news on this front anyone?

[Taernath]

The new information on skill costs was just released. They're no longer doing the increased ROI (5, 4, 3, 2), but they are allowing tripling again.

More info in the mechanics section or just go to:
http://www.play.net/gs3/news/gemstone_iv/skills_costs.asp

[Gokkem]

Originally posted by Whatever
Heh, thanks. And I've seen your signature, CT, so I know it's not personal.

I agree with you that there needs to be something 'at the end' to hold the interest of capped players. In a sense, we have some of these things, if you look at being able to forge, cobble, or fletch. Admittedly, the repetition of these things is kind of a turn-off, as well as being fairly anti-social activities, but just pointing out that there are diversions out there.

I think I am most concerned with them capping the game so that (hopefully) we can see an end of the GP stuff, and more of the flushing out of already-existing things.. spell lists, creatures and hunting areas, new areas and towns, etc.

I would be interested in a statistic of how much of the GS population these characters make up, the ones that would be capped at reallocation. If it's a relatively minor amount, I think the emphasis at that point should be working to flush out and finish things already in place. If it's a significant portion, I agree the capped characters need some sort of a diversion.

I like the idea of a combat arena, though I foresee it being considered too much work, and also against their long-standing policy of not approving of PvP.

Now that they revamped the experience and levels system, I'm much happier and actually looking forward to the changes. I'm going to lose out in some ways, but in other ways, I see great benefits. I'm willing to lose out on minor things for those things that seem incredibly positive.

I agree with all you say, but cobbling, fletching and forging is not acceptable at end game IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but last I checked there's very little money to be made in that area, couple that with the ridiculous repitition that you mentioned, and the fact that you get NO EXPERIENCE from that, and it becomes basically useless. I got into forging so I could make invar weapons, +2 and ebladeable making them better than store bought weapons, then they stopped making invar BLAH. What's the point so I stopped. (Maybe they selling invar again now, I don't know).

In DAoC player crafted weapons and armor are superior to vendor bought ones. Why can't GS be that way too? That encourages more cooperation, and it's 'downtime' from hunting while you search for a reputable crafter.

[Savanae]

Thank you Taernath.

[Methais]

<<So all you griefers whining about how these changes are going to affect YOU, I say tough noogies. The game wasn't created for you anyway, so get over it. -Bestatte>>

Who exactly was the game created for then? The fat guy at the bus stop that needs to take a shower?

[Gokkem]

Originally posted by Methais
<<So all you griefers whining about how these changes are going to affect YOU, I say tough noogies. The game wasn't created for you anyway, so get over it. -Bestatte>>

Who exactly was the game created for then? The fat guy at the bus stop that needs to take a shower?

Hope you are happy now Methais. I just spit coffee all over my keyboard when I read this. Too funny.

[Warriorbird]

I'm glad that there's the large chance we're gonna have a skill cap. Quite frankly, despite all the people complaining about the new experience system, I'm sure that few people want to stop at 160.

Originally posted by Bestatteno amount of believing otherwise will change that fact.

Belief changes everything.

- --[ Kage ]-- -