HCP vs. HDP

[Valyss]

I am curious what the community wisdom on HDP vs. HCP is for the capped and post-cap warrior. I have a set of 10x max-light full plate that I'd love to get padded some day. If I'm being even reasonably careful, there isn't much nowadays that kills me. Things that actually get me are typically an increasingly-unlikely string of RT-building events, followed by an unlucky focused implosion. Granted, I've spent the last million exp hunting Nelemar, which doesn't provide the widest array of challenges.

So! What do folks think about HCP vs. HDP for:

* Nelemar
* The Scatter
* OTF

Does the equation change:

* Before or after 3x PF?
* Before or after 3x dodge?
* With the number of spells you're wearing?
* Depending on race? (I'm half-elf with 3 ranks of toughness, so 195 HP un-enhanced)

Obviously, some amount of this will be chalked up to personal preference and hunting style. I'm really curious to hear what people think!

[Gelston]

I generally prefer flares myself, as I usually never get hit hard enough to where padding of any shape would make too large of a difference. I personally feel if you are getting hit hard enough, outside of invasions, where padding of any sort is worth its cost, there are other remedies you should look at. That being said, I think I'd go with damage over crit. I can't remember the last time I was crit killed by a physical blow, but I can remember the times I've been plinked to death with only a few minors to show for it.

For your armor though, if you are looking to up its value, go with some sort of padding. Crit will probably still sell better than damage.

[Valyss]

Thanks for the input Gelston! I'm going to ask some pesky follow-up questions :)

Where do you usually hunt, and what style? What armor do you wear? What kind of spells do you typically wear? Did you finish 3x dodge?

Do you find that the flares "save you, " or otherwise make hunting easier?

[Gelston]

Camps almost exclusively, I was originally THW with a maul but I switched to pole arms and use a lance now. I'm in some +17 fire flaring plate, which serves its purpose great. I usually roll in with full elemental, spirits, and ranger(Except when I got to OTF, although I do fine without spells there aswell.) And no, I am very close to 3x dodge, though.

The flares don't really "save" me so much as they are just an extra attack on the swarms. The fire works really well against the trolls and does occasionally crit kill them outright.

Of note, however, I used to own a set of VHCP plate before I switched to flaring. I didn't notice a very large difference going from that much padding to no padding, other than the cost of the armor.

[Archigeek]

I use "none of the above" aka: warding plate. But given the choice I'd probably go with crit padding, but it depends on a few factors, and part of that is history, going back to the days before redux. So maybe it's instinctual as much as anything. The big advantage of crit padding doesn't come into play vs physical blows though, it's spells and maneuvers etc.

[neimanz1]

I think demage padding was more gs-3 thing . Now its all ds oriented... especially if you go further post cap. everyone is going to be running around with 400 to 500 self cast ds in offensive. I would go with crit for the spell and maneuver things like kerl said.

[everan]

This will be only marginally helpful since I'm a cleric pure wearing HCP brig, but the things that kill me in the scatter and plane 4 are spikethorn and being eaten by crawlers. Like Neimanz said, I generally have enough DS even lying on the ground, it's the maneuver attacks that will take me down.

[Archigeek]

I think if I were playing a small race I'd probably go with the damage padding. It really is a personal choice though.

[Kitsun]

I record my deaths to keep track of what kills me. Know thine weaknesses!

[Valyss]

For the physical maneuvers, I could really see them being useful. Do post-cap warriors find themselves having problems with crawler pops or soul siphons?

Does HCP have the same value for things like major Ewave or nature's fury? I haven't had a problem with spike thorn, between plate and puncture protection it tickles :)


I use "none of the above" aka: warding plate

give me your warding plate kerl :)

[Buckwheet]

I hunted three classes in OTF. Paladin, Rogue, and Warrior.

Paladin is a halfling who wore 10x HDP full plate with a high enough DS to avoid all the crystal weapons and is a GoS master. So I had HDP and HCP effectively. I never died, according to my logs, from a maneuver on the paladin. The rare times I did die were due to getting stunned by the rare herald disc while in RT and then getting RT locked/webbed and bled out from getting dispelled. With 1616 he has 150 health, and if he gets dispelled its 130 something. It doesn't take many 10 damage shots to die.

The rogue wears 8x void flaring full plate and has never died in OTF. He has far superior defense than the paladin due to being 3x dodge and knows 130/425. He is also a GoS master and I use the crit padding from that. Checking my logs the rogue has never been hit by the herald discs, rarely is webbed by the room web, and the only time in the past 8 months he took any damage at all in OTF was from griffin drops. I am sure the crit padding reduced most of the ill effects from that if there were any.

The warrior wore 7x HCP and due to his much lower defenses being 2h, also used the GoS crit padding. I found that once I got his defenses up to avoid the crystal weapons and swarms the biggest thing that killed him was also the herald discs due to crits. I would for sure not have chosen HDP for this warrior until he was much more reduxed and was 3x dodge.

[Valyss]

Thanks for the input Buckwheet!

What is the thinking around the scatter? Also, a few people have mentioned crit padding for spells. Which problematic spells would crit padding help to reduce?

[Loyrl]

I hunt Nelemar, and I like HDP because of the mstrikes I take. When I hunt plane4/scatter I use HCP though. Also I like HDP for bandits. I also normally hunt with only voln symbols.

* Multi Opponent Combat..............| * * 255 * * 155
* Physical Fitness...................| * * 365 * * 265
* Dodging............................| * * 302 * * 202



A giantman outlaw lunges forward at you with his reinforced shield and attempts a shield bash!
[Roll result: 196 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman outlaw lashes at you with a lucky shield bash and you flip through the air, landing on your head with a crash!
... 1 point of damage!
You hear a buzzing in your ears from that blow!
You are stunned!
Roundtime: 13 sec.
>
In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, an elven brigand engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes!
An elven brigand swings a handaxe at you!
AS: +434 vs DS: +205 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +74 = +326
... and hits for 16 points of damage!
Stomach shot lands with a hollow *thump*.

An elven brigand swings a handaxe at you!
AS: +434 vs DS: +195 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +59 = +321
... and hits for 18 points of damage!
Bones in left arm crack.

An elven brigand swings a handaxe at you!
AS: +434 vs DS: +195 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +53 = +315
... and hits for 15 points of damage!
Awkward slash to your stomach!
Everyone needs another belly button.

An elven brigand swings a handaxe at you!
AS: +434 vs DS: +195 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +100 = +362
... and hits for 18 points of damage!
Stomach shot lands with a hollow *thump*.

An elven brigand swings a handaxe at you!
AS: +434 vs DS: +185 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +8 = +280
... and hits for 13 points of damage!
Blow raises a welt on your right arm.

>
A giantman outlaw swings a handaxe at you!
Stupefied, you block the attack by blind luck!

>sym trans
sym trans confirm
You must CONFIRM that you wish to use the emergency feature of this symbol.
[You may set your preference to automatically confirm emergency use of this symbol with the SYMBOL OF TRANSCENDENCE TOGGLE option.]
>With difficulty, you manage to will yourself into the space between the corporeal and ethereal realms.
>
[Roll result: 71 (open d100: 44)]
A giantman outlaw kicks his leg at your groin, but you manage to turn away in time, resulting in a light kick to your leg instead.
>
The net entangling you rips and falls apart.
>
A giantman outlaw slips into hiding.

You are still stunned.
>A giantman outlaw leaps out of his hiding place!
A giantman outlaw swings a handaxe at you!
AS: +453 vs DS: +215 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +22 = +283
... and hits for 14 points of damage!
Large gash to your left arm seals as strike passes through.

Sensing an impending attack, you manage to roll hard to the side, and then leap to your feet!
A jungle troll swings a bamboo-hilted machete at you!
With blinding speed, you dodge the attack!
>
sym resto

You feel the power of the symbol course through your body.
>sym resto

sym resto

You feel the power of the symbol course through your body.
>You feel the power of the symbol course through your body.
>stance def
You are now in a defensive stance.
_____________________________________________

A human marauder swings a handaxe at you!
AS: +422 vs DS: +225 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +43 = +263
... and hits for 10 points of damage!
Quick slash catches your cheek!
Dimples are always nice.

A human marauder swings a handaxe at you!
AS: +422 vs DS: +199 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +88 = +334
... and hits for 17 points of damage!
Slash to your right leg hits high!
Kinda makes your knees weak, huh?

A human marauder swings a handaxe at you!
AS: +422 vs DS: +199 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +53 = +299
... and hits for 15 points of damage!
Blow raises a welt on your left arm.

A human marauder swings a handaxe at you!
AS: +422 vs DS: +192 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +89 = +342
... and hits for 22 points of damage!
Grazing blow to your stomach.

A human marauder swings a handaxe at you!
AS: +422 vs DS: +192 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +63 = +316
... and hits for 16 points of damage!
Torn muscle in your left leg!

[Buckwheet]

I don't understand why your DS is so low for Nelemar/Bandits? I can understand for scatter because you can't really spell tank.

>stance defensive

...wait 3 seconds.
An Ithzir herald swings a curved silvery blade at you!
AS: +411 vs DS: +467 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +71 = +36
A clean miss.

That is my paladin in OTF so basically the same spellburst properties as Nelemar. It would be even higher against bandits.

[Jeril]

In the first clip he is netted, only 2x in dodge and only uses voln symbols for spells. Not sure the exact conditions of the second clip but likely disabled in some other fashion as well or just from wounds he has already taken.

Myself, other then hunting in OTF 2x dodge was plenty to avoid most hits or being hit hard enough to make crit padding worth while and even in OTF the times I hunted there I've only died from 2-3 crystal flares over the years. From what I've seen the crit padding likely does help against major ewaves, but I am not exactly sure how well it will help against the things that will actually kill you with it, liches and gwe. You know I use my flaring plate and I love it.

[Loyrl]

Lots of wounds, and prone. The HDP plate I have is 7x and the HCP plate I have is 4x. I normally run with no spells, even though I have enough spell burst protection to light myself up doesn't mean I always have it. I don't beg for spells, although if I see a Wizard I know I may ask for spells depending on if there are no Empaths around.

[Buckwheet]

I gotcha. The hit you posted from the bandits would have killed my halfling paladin based on the end rolls with 10x HDP plate before the final 14 point damage hit due to your better redux. There is no way I would be able to handle that.

[Valyss]

nelemar isn't all that challenging, so i think HDP would suit me better there. do folks generally agree with HCP for the rift/scatter? seems like there are more physical maneuvers flying around.

[Androidpk]

I like flares for the stuns and instant kills.

A krag yeti swings a monstrous hairy hand at you!
AS: +363 vs DS: +212 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +36 = +219
... and hits for 19 points of damage!
Bones in right arm crack.


** Your twisted golvern plate flares with a burst of flame at the krag yeti! **


... 30 points of damage!
Head explodes in flames! Grab some marshmallows.
[You have earned 85 prestige points.]
The krag yeti collapses to the ground and shudders once before finally going still.





A black forest ogre waves her elongated, clawed hands at you!
A black forest ogre hurls a hissing stream of acid at you!
AS: +381 vs DS: +212 with AvD: +14 + d100 roll: +73 = +256
... and hits for 23 points of damage!
Splash to chest runs off before it does worse than blister the skin.


** Your twisted golvern plate flares with a burst of flame at the black forest ogre! **


... 30 points of damage!
Extreme heat causes a black forest ogre's right leg to expand and snap. That must hurt!
It is knocked to the ground!
The black forest ogre is stunned!

[Geijon Khyree]

Good feedback. Xanith and Metadi weighed in by proxy. Xanith likes flares also. It seems with all things being said it's all three arguments are equal when summed. It comes down to preference. For me I've usually heard HDP, as a Warrior I only die in berserk RT or prone lockdowns and I've got zero padding at about 1.5 dodge.

[Loyrl]

I had acid flares on a set of 4x plate, and I decided I wanted something that worked on every hit more than something that works sometimes. Yes, it was cool for the random knock downs, stuns, or even instant deaths though.

[Jeril]

Well of course you are going to want padding over anything else with as few spells as you wear, you get hit more often and harder then we do.

[whiteflash]

nelemar isn't all that challenging, so i think HDP would suit me better there. do folks generally agree with HCP for the rift/scatter? seems like there are more physical maneuvers flying around.

With Dhairn in the scatter (Paladin) we have tried all different sorts of armor. In general they all performed equally against the things that most got us into trouble up there: RT lock, dispel, major ewave from liches. Against the spike thorn or majore lich wave we couldn't tell much difference between MDP, HCP, or no padding fusion. When he was closer to 1x dodge and DS was lower, damage padding helped the most. Towards 2x dodge his DS was simply too high for MStrike from destroyers to get him severely, I suspect a redux'd warrior may never be bothered by it.

Damage padding definitely gets more stuns, but Paladins and Warriors don't sweat that much with beseech and berserk. The only armor that was markedly better than any others he wore was Sam's red armor. In that armor he basically could not die.

[Archigeek]

The way the destroyers get you in the scatter is the same way warriors get others: it's all in the setup. They'll attempt to put you in offensive stance and then if you end up on the ground and mstriked with a claid, it can be curtains pretty fast, though I think in that situation damage padding would help the most. Berserk is a double edged sword too. If you end up stunned for just 2-3 rounds, and you try to berserk out of it and fail, you can end up in an uncontrolled berserk and get needled to death.

[Androidpk]

Are destroyers stunable? It's always nice to have a critter get stunned/killed on their first mstrike because of an armor flare.

[Archigeek]

Nope, can't be stunned.

[whiteflash]

Are destroyers stunable? It's always nice to have a critter get stunned/killed on their first mstrike because of an armor flare.

They also spray acid if you dismember them, not sure how often that is an issue with reactive flares. I'd get aggro at my brother when he'd screw up his aimed strikes! It always seemed to acid spray me and not him.

[Danical]

Are destroyers stunable? It's always nice to have a critter get stunned/killed on their first mstrike because of an armor flare.

Not only can they not be stunned, but they have heavy crit padding (I tracked the padding to be as high as 11 points) which will reduce the resulting crit rank caused by the flare from your armor. Additionally, they're Vvrael which means a rank 2 or higher wound on a limb inflicted by the armor flare may cause an acid splash (I think it works on flares at least, not just AS/DS resolutions) back at you which can potentially kill you. They're a fun bunch . . .

[Sav]

stumbled on this thread... for me personally (capped GoS warrior) I'm all about the crit padding.. HDP is all the damage padding I could ever need and is the cheaper of the two protection sigils to keep up so I actually gain more stam/mana then I use with keeping up all my sigils. Using mcp plate now and it pretty much makes me immune to death cept for implode or carelessness

[Geijon Khyree]

I'd have to challenge some of the GoS based answers in that the thread is primarily for those who can only choose one, not HDP and HCP due to GoS sigil.

[Jace Solo]

Necro - I've been running in HCP and then running HDP sigil like above. Should I be using the HCP sigil to bump up both DS (+5) and extra Crit padding.

[Whirlin]

Depends your concern... Crit deaths? Yeah, get the crit padding.

HDP will absolutely do more for blood loss reduction than the +5 DS. Assuming your wearing plate, the 5 DS should only be about 1 damage, maximum.... before redux. Whereas HDP... well, I'd need to look it up, but it's more than that.

Additional HCP will only come into play when you're taking more than 22 raw damage (assuming you're in plate)... And call me crazy, but if you're commonly getting hit for more than 22 damage... something else is probably very wrong.

[Valyss]

oh, hey there old thread :)

since posting this, i upgraded my armor to 10x HCP full plate and have been happy with the results. when i hunting easy stuff like nelemar and bandits, i run the HDP GoS sigil for good all-around coverage and because it's much cheaper to sustain.

[Haldrik]

oh, hey there old thread :)

since posting this, i upgraded my armor to 10x HCP full plate and have been happy with the results. when i hunting easy stuff like nelemar and bandits, i run the HDP GoS sigil for good all-around coverage and because it's much cheaper to sustain.

Do the HCP sigils stack with HCP armor?

[Jace Solo]

Yes