Rude or My Fault?

[SonoftheNorth]

From: Me
To: Simu

Hello, on my account XXXXXXXXXXXXX security answer XXXXXXXXXX i'd like to deactivate my character XXX and reactivate character XXXXXX in its character slot. thanks again as always.

From: Simu
To: Me

You are clearly playing 2 characters and you need to pay for an extra character slot if you are going to continue playing 2 characters. We are willing to make these characters changes a few times, but this has been ongoing switching every few days now for a few months. Either pick a character and play that one or add an extra character slot and play them both.


Chris Metzener
Simutronics Corporation

*Did not switch characters in slot


I currently pay for 2 accounts for myself and 2 for my girlfriend. Am I being cheap switching back and forth characters every couple of weeks or did this come off as rude?
Honestly considering leaving game over it.

[Kuyuk]

you're being cheap and a pain in the ass customer IMO

[Asha]

Yeah. Give them the extra couple dollars for the slot.

[diethx]

I think they're lucky to be getting $15 per account from you for such an antiquated and poorly-run piece of shit. Technically though they're right, you are playing the two characters and since they require you to pay extra for a second character, you should pay if you want to continue to play both.

I still think quitting is the best option.

[Tsk Tsk]

Just shell out the $3.

[Stanley Burrell]

Personally, Chris has been pretty frickin' cool as far as technical character switching/reactivation on a single account for me :shrug:

[Tgo01]

I say quit.

[Bobmuhthol]

Yeah definitely quit over that.

[Manamethis]

I currently pay for 2 accounts for myself and 2 for my girlfriend. Am I being cheap switching back and forth characters every couple of weeks or did this come off as rude?
Honestly considering leaving game over it.


switching every few days now for a few months


Leave billing alone, they're awesome.

[Archigeek]

If you're enjoying the game enough to pay for two accounts, go ahead and really pony up and make one a premium account. That will give you plenty of slots and you can do whatever you want.

[Manamethis]

It would be nice if a basic account had at least 2 characters though, every other game out there offers more than 1 single character

[Archigeek]

It would be nice if a basic account had at least 2 characters though, every other game out there offers more than 1 single character

I agree. I think they're afraid to revisit that area of their business model though, as they potentially would lose a good number of premium accounts, who are paying alot more. I think there are enough premium benefits though that not alot of people would switch because of that. On the flip side, it would keep some basic customers playing longer as they explore other classes. You would think they would want to encourage their few new players to try lots of things.

[FlayedAngel]

I agree... it would be nice for basic accounts to have one extra character slot -- if for no other reason than to have a little wiggle room for trying new things -- and some very thoughtful points regarding that were made above.

But, it's not a huge additional cost for one extra character slot... I think like, $2.50 tops per extra character, and it might even be less than that. Maybe more like $1.50, I don't remember. Personally, I would have little problem paying that extra bit, for much same reason I don't mind buying CDs and merch at shows for bands I like (instead of pirating, y'arrrrgh) -- more money for them means they're more likely to stick around, which is good. It may seem a little unreasonable at the surface, but bear in mind that any revenue for the company means overall better services and content for us customers in the long run.

Besides... the amount you'd pay for an extra character slot is less (even sometimes half as much!) as you'd pay for a cup o' coffee from your local barista, and that's a once-a-month fee versus something you'd down in 5 minutes.

That's just how I look at it, anyways.

[Tgo01]

It may seem a little unreasonable at the surface, but bear in mind that any revenue for the company means overall better services and content for us customers in the long run.

You're so cute.

[FlayedAngel]

TL:DR version: That.

Just shell out the $3.

[FlayedAngel]

You're so cute.

Thanks, I try.

I rather suspected that might get some response. *grin*

[Jhynnifer]

Yeah... the amount of work you're giving them for all of $3 a month... I'd have sent you that email months ago.

[MrMortimur]

The folks in billing are fairly awesome, if you are asking them to deactivate/reactivate that often...ya Chris is most definitely in the right. Go with the extra character slot, it's cheap enough especially if you enjoy both characters enough to go through your previous hassle.

[Tgo01]

Was Chris technically correct here? I'd say yes. Was he pretty rude about it? Again I'd say yes. I really don't understand why so many people are willing to forgive rude employees these days.

Here is how Chris could have been correct and still managed to be polite about it.

"I'm sorry but we are unable to continue changing this character slot for you as often as we have been. We were willing to change this character slot for you once a month or so but if you feel the need to change the character anymore often than that we feel purchasing another character slot would be the way to go. I can make this change for you one last time if you want to but please be aware this may be the last time I am able to do this without having to charge you for another character slot. Again I apologize. Let me know how you want to proceed."

See? Was that so hard? Honestly even though Chris might have been "right" if I was in your position I'd enjoy nothing more than to say "You know what you're right. Instead of 'costing' you guys $2.50 every month go ahead and close these 4 accounts of mine. There, now everyone is happy."

[Bobmuhthol]

Was he pretty rude about it? Again I'd say yes. I really don't understand why so many people are willing to forgive rude employees these days.We clearly live in different worlds, because I would never call that response rude.

Okay so I read the rest of your post, and what you wanted him to do was act like a fucking idiot while still saying the same thing, but longer and less directly. Have you by chance ever worked at a call center? The apologetic attitude is fucking condescending and unproductive.

Edit for clarity: I mean the way call center employees are trained. I'm not calling you condescending. I apologize for any inconvenience that my ambiguity may have caused. Please let me know how you wish to proceed in this matter. Have a great day.

[Tgo01]

We clearly live in different worlds, because I would never call that response rude.[/COLOR]

It was, just trust me.

[Suppressed Poet]

We clearly live in different worlds, because I would never call that response rude.

Okay so I read the rest of your post, and what you wanted him to do was act like a fucking idiot while still saying the same thing, but longer and less directly. Have you by chance ever worked at a call center? The apologetic attitude is fucking condescending and unproductive.

You seem like a real peach.

[Bobmuhthol]

I'll admit that I'm biased because I can't stand people who seem to think it's okay to intentionally avoid paying for a service. And by that, what I really mean is that I'm objective, and I'm subtly accusing anyone who thinks that billing was rude of being biased in favor of cost-avoiding behavior.

[Manamethis]

Chris is female and she's the boss, you get to be rude when you're the boss and sometimes you have to just so the customer gets the point

[Manamethis]

I apologize for any inconvenience


That made me laugh out loud because thats the standard GFY and used by everyone.

[Methais]

From: Me
To: Simu

Hello, on my account XXXXXXXXXXXXX security answer XXXXXXXXXX i'd like to deactivate my character XXX and reactivate character XXXXXX in its character slot. thanks again as always.

From: Simu
To: Me

You are clearly playing 2 characters and you need to pay for an extra character slot if you are going to continue playing 2 characters. We are willing to make these characters changes a few times, but this has been ongoing switching every few days now for a few months. Either pick a character and play that one or add an extra character slot and play them both.


Chris Metzener
Simutronics Corporation

*Did not switch characters in slot


I currently pay for 2 accounts for myself and 2 for my girlfriend. Am I being cheap switching back and forth characters every couple of weeks or did this come off as rude?
Honestly considering leaving game over it.

Yes, you are a fucking cheap jewbag and you should feel bad about the extremes you go to to save $2 a month.

I don't mean that as in Jews are cheap. I mean you are a Jewish bag that doesn't cost a lot.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_slcXiEJtWYQ/S4NjHNXp8HI/AAAAAAAAKKY/sk7_f66w7eg/s400/jewbag.jpg

[Tgo01]

Okay so I read the rest of your post, and what you wanted him to do was act like a fucking idiot while still saying the same thing, but longer and less directly. Have you by chance ever worked at a call center? The apologetic attitude is fucking condescending and unproductive.

Yeah, it is pretty amazing how companies with call centers have managed to stay in business for so long while Simutronics has one person answering the phones.

[diethx]

Yes, you are a fucking cheap jewbag and you should feel bad about the extremes you go to to save $2 a month.

I don't mean that as in Jews are cheap. I mean you are a Jewish bag that doesn't cost a lot of course.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_slcXiEJtWYQ/S4NjHNXp8HI/AAAAAAAAKKY/sk7_f66w7eg/s400/jewbag.jpg

I hate to say this but the more you post these days, the more I miss the days of you not posting.

[msconstrew]

I hate to say this but the more you post these days, the more I miss the days of you not posting.

You hate to say it? I sure wouldn't.

[Methais]

I hate to say this but the more you post these days, the more I miss the days of you not posting.

Grats?



You hate to say it? I sure wouldn't.

Who are you?

[msconstrew]

Who are you?

A cheap jewbag with more intelligence, education, and class than you will ever have.

[AnticorRifling]

Yeah... the amount of work you're giving them for all of $3 a month... I'd have sent you that email months ago.

Pressing 2 buttons is super hard.

[Methais]

A cheap jewbag with more intelligence, education, and class than you will ever have.

Golly, you sure told me.

[AnticorRifling]

I'll admit that I'm biased because I can't stand people who seem to think it's okay to intentionally avoid paying for a service. And by that, what I really mean is that I'm objective, and I'm subtly accusing anyone who thinks that billing was rude of being biased in favor of cost-avoiding behavior.

How are those movie downloads working out for you Bob?

[Methais]

You must spread some AIDS around before giving it to AnticorRifling again.

[Suppressed Poet]

I'll admit that I'm biased because I can't stand people who seem to think it's okay to intentionally avoid paying for a service. And by that, what I really mean is that I'm objective, and I'm subtly accusing anyone who thinks that billing was rude of being biased in favor of cost-avoiding behavior.

I actually agree with your assertion, but sure it could have been handled a little better. The example of kissing ass and saying that this is the last time I can accommodate that request is correct. He is the customer. Is the customers behavior a problem and needs to be addressed? Sure. But from a purely objective monetary standpoint, you don't want to be rude to a customer. Simu may lose 4 accounts for not sucking it up and playing friendly but firm customer service. A kill with kindness email saying they can no longer accommodate such frequent requests, and a good reason why, would have sent the message and this thread wouldn't exist.

[diethx]

you don't want to be rude to a customer

You must be new to Gemstone/Simutronics.

[BriarFox]

Pay the $2.50 and stop being ridiculous. Your follow-up email makes you look even more like an asshat. Christ.

[SHAFT]

Don't be a cheap skate. Work 5 minutes and you can pay for this

[Tgo01]

Your follow-up email makes you look even more like an asshat. Christ.

What follow up email?


I currently pay for 2 accounts for myself and 2 for my girlfriend. Am I being cheap switching back and forth characters every couple of weeks or did this come off as rude?
Honestly considering leaving game over it.

Pretty sure that is just part of his post to us, not an email.

[Back]

What I don't understand is paying $14.95 for four accounts and trying to play 5 characters by switching two on one account.

4 basic accounts = 4 characters = $59.80

2 basic accounts + 1 premium = 17 characters = $54.90

[milesalpha]

"The customer is always right", most often said by people who have never had to deal with customers. Frankly, you knew you were circumventing rules, and yet you still think you deserve to be treated with kid gloves? That's why my hairline disappeared after 35 years of customer service.

[Kastrel]

"The customer is always right", most often said by people who have never had to deal with customers. Frankly, you knew you were circumventing rules, and yet you still think you deserve to be treated with kid gloves? That's why my hairline disappeared after 35 years of customer service.

I think the proper phrase should be "If you want to ensure you keep as many customers as possible, you will do what the customer asks". Customers are wrong all the time. Especially the ones who cite that the customer is always right. They just say that because they want to get their way.

[Tgo01]

"The customer is always right", most often said by people who have never had to deal with customers. Frankly, you knew you were circumventing rules, and yet you still think you deserve to be treated with kid gloves? That's why my hairline disappeared after 35 years of customer service.

I've had to deal directly with customers with every single job I've ever had, I still follow the motto of "The customer is always right." Of course there are exceptions but for the most part I still believe it's true. I really don't understand why some employees feel the need to get angry with customers but Simutronics has made an art form out of being hostile and rude towards their customers so no one should really be surprised by this shit anymore.

[Jhynnifer]

Pressing 2 buttons is super hard.

Pressing 2 buttons isn't super hard...

Having to press the same 2 buttons every couple of days because someone isn't willing to fork over $2... too much work.

[Androidpk]

How are those movie downloads working out for you Bob?

^

[milesalpha]

I think the proper phrase should be "If you want to ensure you keep as many customers as possible, you will do what the customer asks". Customers are wrong all the time. Especially the ones who cite that the customer is always right. They just say that because they want to get their way.

Yes they will lie through their teeth in order to get their way. And if you let them do so, you will only hurt your business. 99% of my customers (referring to my owner days) were great people, and I provided a customer service experience that seemed to outdo other stores, they didn't last, I did. When you kowtow to the 1% who need more, you are doing a disservice to those customers who have a genuine need.
I never had a lack of customers, because my prices were better, my customer service was better (but my idea of customer service was things like actually going to the customers house to solve a problem, not giving in to someone who is flaunting my rules), and my selection was better. I worked very hard for my customers, and good customers knew that.

I will give you an example from today. I now work for a superstore on the customer service desk (part-time only, I am mostly retired, but you gotta get out of the house, y'know). I had a lady this afternoon who came to me babbling that the meat manager had cursed at her. Knowing Tom, I knew this was presposterous, but I have to elevate such a claim the the manager. This resulted in the manager of the store, the head of customer service, the staff from the meat department (6) who were present, and one customer witness who got involved having a half hour discussion. We were thundering busy (closed tomorrow for Remembrance Day) and we had some serious gaps to fill. From the meat staff and the customer we learned that the meat manager had not sworn at the woman. We had racks of ribs on sale, and she wanted them individually cut, which, of course, meant a higher price. When told it would be easy to cut them individually with a knife at home, she said she didn't have a knife at home (huh?) and threw her temper tantrum. Naturally she was looking for something free at that point and in an unusual display of defiance, the manager rejected that option but offered to have the meat dept. do the individual cuts. The woman carried on a while more and when it became clear she wasn't getting anything free she pushed her full cart at the manager and stormed out.

So, the woman's claim was a complete lie, but it took up a lot of effort by people who were desperately needed elsewhere to solve it. Other customers (who come up short on their service) and the employees (trying to fill the gaps) get screwed over, costing time and money. I don't set the corporation policy, but I stand by my old way of doing things, "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.".

[Tgo01]

I will give you an example from today. I now work for a superstore on the customer service desk (part-time only, I am mostly retired, but you gotta get out of the house, y'know). I had a lady this afternoon who came to me babbling that the meat manager had cursed at her. Knowing Tom, I knew this was presposterous, but I have to elevate such a claim the the manager. This resulted in the manager of the store, the head of customer service, the staff from the meat department (6) who were present, and one customer witness who got involved having a half hour discussion. We were thundering busy (closed tomorrow for Remembrance Day) and we had some serious gaps to fill. From the meat staff and the customer we learned that the meat manager had not sworn at the woman. We had racks of ribs on sale, and she wanted them individually cut, which, of course, meant a higher price. When told it would be easy to cut them individually with a knife at home, she said she didn't have a knife at home (huh?) and threw her temper tantrum. Naturally she was looking for something free at that point and in an unusual display of defiance, the manager rejected that option but offered to have the meat dept. do the individual cuts. The woman carried on a while more and when it became clear she wasn't getting anything free she pushed her full cart at the manager and stormed out.

So, the woman's claim was a complete lie, but it took up a lot of effort by people who were desperately needed elsewhere to solve it. Other customers (who come up short on their service) and the employees (trying to fill the gaps) get screwed over, costing time and money. I don't set the corporation policy, but I stand by my old way of doing things, "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.".

At any time was she told it would cost more to have them individually cut? Maybe she didn't even realize that? I also like how you're saying the customer cost you guys time and money and man hours that could have been better spent elsewhere when all you guys had to do was cut the ribs. Seriously. I'll admit I'm not a butcher or anything but how long would it have taken to cut the ribs? Was it more or less time that was spent trying to get to the bottom of this cursing bit?

That's a pretty good story for how NOT to handle a difficult customer, even assuming she was difficult and all of the staff wasn't just sticking up for one another which seems extremely likely since you said right off the bat that you didn't believe the lady.

[SHAFT]

Whatever methais says is right. Jesus Christ why do I have to point this out?

Also, please include a tl;dr version, because no one except tgo is reading that shit bro

[Manamethis]

They let you de-activate characters on the website, they need to let you re-activate characters on the website and this wouldn't be an issue.

The only time you can choose to re-activate a character is when you renew your account after being closed.

[Kastrel]

Awesome story about manager standing up to customer.

It takes me back a bit. My district manager at Gamestop was a total tool, and in 99% of cases, a total pushover to "these kinds of customers". However, on one occasion, he truly did stand up to a customer. It was the hardcore original Wii season. If you weren't involved in this, it was effectively impossible to get Wii's that season. Our Gamestop literally got 10 per week, all at once, and we recieved THOUSANDS of calls for them. Every day, three dozen customers stormed our store and waited to see if we would get one in shipment (ironic since we never got 3 dozen at once) and waited several hours until we could confirm or deny Wii's in shipment (on Saturday and Sunday we just said get out, we aren't getting shipment).

One morning, our district manager happened to be in the store, and one woman, tired of waiting for this product and feeling entitled, raised a fuss. She wasn't complaining about anyone in particular, but basically said "I deserve a Wii. I have waited and waited, and I am not waiting anymore. I want you to use your power as manager of 15 stores to GET one for me." He seemed to consider the request honestly, but in an unprecedented (before or everafter) sign of rationality, he asked "Okay, I get you. But what about the other twenty people here who have waited just as long as you?" Her response, which I heard myself was "I don't care about them, they aren't my problem!". He then responded "And that is why you aren't getting one." She left, and swore never to come back to the store. She and her children were regular customers (5-10 times a month) until I quit three years later, spending what I would estimate to be at least $5000 in the store between the three of them. So much for her threats.

[milesalpha]

It takes me back a bit. My district manager at Gamestop was a total tool, and in 99% of cases, a total pushover to "these kinds of customers". However, on one occasion, he truly did stand up to a customer. It was the hardcore original Wii season. If you weren't involved in this, it was effectively impossible to get Wii's that season. Our Gamestop literally got 10 per week, all at once, and we recieved THOUSANDS of calls for them. Every day, three dozen customers stormed our store and waited to see if we would get one in shipment (ironic since we never got 3 dozen at once) and waited several hours until we could confirm or deny Wii's in shipment (on Saturday and Sunday we just said get out, we aren't getting shipment).

One morning, our district manager happened to be in the store, and one woman, tired of waiting for this product and feeling entitled, raised a fuss. She wasn't complaining about anyone in particular, but basically said "I deserve a Wii. I have waited and waited, and I am not waiting anymore. I want you to use your power as manager of 15 stores to GET one for me." He seemed to consider the request honestly, but in an unprecedented (before or everafter) sign of rationality, he asked "Okay, I get you. But what about the other twenty people here who have waited just as long as you?" Her response, which I heard myself was "I don't care about them, they aren't my problem!". He then responded "And that is why you aren't getting one." She left, and swore never to come back to the store. She and her children were regular customers (5-10 times a month) until I quit three years later, spending what I would estimate to be at least $5000 in the store between the three of them. So much for her threats.

Beautiful. you have to train some customers.

[milesalpha]

At any time was she told it would cost more to have them individually cut? Maybe she didn't even realize that? I also like how you're saying the customer cost you guys time and money and man hours that could have been better spent elsewhere when all you guys had to do was cut the ribs. Seriously. I'll admit I'm not a butcher or anything but how long would it have taken to cut the ribs? Was it more or less time that was spent trying to get to the bottom of this cursing bit?

That's a pretty good story for how NOT to handle a difficult customer, even assuming she was difficult and all of the staff wasn't just sticking up for one another which seems extremely likely since you said right off the bat that you didn't believe the lady.

I am sorry you really don't get it. Yeah I would not believe Tom swore at her. I work with him, and I happen to know he is a Jehovah Witness, so the idea of him swearing is ludicrous, hell I mind my language around the guy because he's so straight. Perhaps you didn't notice that I mentioned a customer who was so outraged by this woman that she also got involved, she was caught lying cold. The woman was informed that it would cost more to get individual cuts, a common policy when they put some kind of meat on sale and sell it at a bulk price. Say they did say yes and do the individual cuts, then they have to do it for the next one, and the one after that, and the one after that, pretty much making the meat sale pointless, it would not be profitable. Yes it does cost a few bucks to have a meat cutter (one of the highest paid employees at the store) do this.

If you think this is not the way to handle it, I suggest avoiding a business with customers, some will simply run over you.

[Tgo01]

I am sorry you really don't get it. Yeah I would not believe Tom swore at her. I work with him, and I happen to know he is a Jehovah Witness, so the idea of him swearing is ludicrous

My bad, you didn't mention he was a Jehovah Witness.

[Bobmuhthol]

How are those movie downloads working out for you Bob?

I'm sorry, did I make a thread about how I should be allowed to download media without paying for it and any company that wants me to pay them doesn't deserve my business? You will never see me steal revenue from a company and then follow up by openly complaining about them pointing it out.

[SonoftheNorth]

Hi, I was actually unaware that it was illegal or frowned upon since so many other games allow you to reactivate/deactivate characters at will. I thought it was just the way the system worked since they allow you to deactivate/start new characters at any time and you just had to go through them to do it. I would have purchased another character slot because I do realize it must have been annoying now, but on the other side I'm also paying them. I also found it somewhat rude they refused to switch the characters and sent me that email with no warning as sort of a punishment. They could have said "In the future can you change characters less or buy another character slot, thank you" Instead of that email and refusing to reactivate my other character. My actual response was "I'm sorry I apologize for any inconvenience I've caused" not some threat to deactivate my accounts which would be out of sadness not revenge/spite. I will purchase another character slot in the future, I just felt somewhat shitty to be treated like that and basically accused of scamming and being cheap by a company I am paying 60 dollars a month to for a 1990s text based game. I do enjoy it and realize they can charge what they want and it is my choice to play or not play but I don't think reactivating a character twice a month without banging me for another 2.50 is too much to ask.

[Bobmuhthol]

After reading that, I'm changing my position. I still don't think it was rude, but they should have said something about it a lot earlier. I can understand not thinking it was an issue since they apparently kept switching the characters without question.

[SonoftheNorth]

And now I am stuck with a locker character I don't really enjoy playing. I don't understand what I can do without hassling them more.

[Tgo01]

And now I am stuck with a locker character I don't really enjoy playing. I don't understand what I can do without hassling them more.

Pay for the second character slot?

[RSR]

Pay the 3 bucks for a second character and reactivate the one you want to play. Dur.

[Archigeek]

I don't get why you don't just switch to a premium account and a basic account, if you're paying them 60 bucks a month.

[Suppressed Poet]

Hi, I was actually unaware that it was illegal or frowned upon since so many other games allow you to reactivate/deactivate characters at will. I thought it was just the way the system worked since they allow you to deactivate/start new characters at any time and you just had to go through them to do it. I would have purchased another character slot because I do realize it must have been annoying now, but on the other side I'm also paying them. I also found it somewhat rude they refused to switch the characters and sent me that email with no warning as sort of a punishment. They could have said "In the future can you change characters less or buy another character slot, thank you" Instead of that email and refusing to reactivate my other character. My actual response was "I'm sorry I apologize for any inconvenience I've caused" not some threat to deactivate my accounts which would be out of sadness not revenge/spite. I will purchase another character slot in the future, I just felt somewhat shitty to be treated like that and basically accused of scamming and being cheap by a company I am paying 60 dollars a month to for a 1990s text based game. I do enjoy it and realize they can charge what they want and it is my choice to play or not play but I don't think reactivating a character twice a month without banging me for another 2.50 is too much to ask.

Glad you shared that.

What they are really saying to you is that it is a manual process. They can not justify using staff to have to flip some switches on a frequent occurrence whenever you send an email. Honestly, I see you frustration and to your credit that was not clearly defined to you up front. They also should have worded the email to you in a kinder and less assumptive manner. Hopefully you can see their side as well that it is simply not profitable to continue this pattern. Ultimately the choice is yours, but for little to no expense if you want to continue playing a solution to that problem exists.

[TheEschaton]

I think this all depends on how often you switched, and how often you switched back and forth between the same two characters.

I can understand if you were coming back from a long absence and you were flipping through a roster of 10 toons trying to figure out what you wanted to play. I can understand if you did this only once every 6 weeks or so.

But they're making it sound like you did this weekly or every other week, between the same two toons, one of which you admit is a locker toon you don't really care to play, and you're just taking advantage of that.

Plus, other games don't really have a per-character cost. It's kind of an irrelevant comparison.

[SonoftheNorth]

Because I don't want a premium account? I wanted to move things from one deactivated character to another and asked them to switch characters in slot because I didn't know it would be such a big deal. Yes, I didn't want to pay 2.50 for another character slot for two days to deactivate it again. I don't think that makes me a criminal or a scam artist. Maybe I was wrong but I think their response to me politely asking them to switch my characters in my character slot was rude. I think I asked them to do it probably twice in the past month and once the month before. Not switching characters back and forth every other day.

If I open another slot I will still have to ask them to reactivate the character and honestly I don't think they should be rewarded for basically bullying me when I don't see any rules about reactivating characters too often or character reactivated at all, save that you have to contact the billing department. Maybe I wasn't using common sense and was being somewhat annoying, which I regret hassling them, but to demand more money and refuse service is a little harsh to me. Someone point out where it says you can only reactivate characters into unused character slots or there being a limit and I truly apologize for my behaviour.


"A deactivated character is removed from your list of characters and can not be played again. The character can be placed back onto your list of characters by the billing department if there is an unfilled character slot." All it really says on the matter.

[Methais]

If all you're trying to do is shuffle some items around, explain your situation to them and chances are they'll work with you.

Billing is the one department of Simu that is almost universally liked by the playerbase. And we love to hate Simu. Billing is like Arnold Schwarzenegger's character from the movie Twins, and most of the rest of Simu is like Danny DeVito's character.

[Asha]

I can't believe you referred to Danny DeVito in a negative way. What the fuck is happening?

[Arqueto]

Maybe I wasn't using common sense and was being somewhat annoying

But dammit, how dare they call me on it!

[diethx]

I can't believe you referred to Danny DeVito in a negative way. What the fuck is happening?

He's just saying that billing is awesome and the rest of Simu is genetic garbage. It's not a poor comparison (with few exceptions imo - Jolena, Vics, etc. The rest of the GMs that still give a fuck, so on and so forth).

[Asha]

Ah ok. Sorry I shouldn't have skimmed.
My DeVito senses were tingling and I pretty much just panicked.

[Ker_Thwap]

That was a perfectly acceptable business letter. They explained the problem, gave some detail and gave you a suggestion on how to correct the issue. If that letter bruised your fragile sense of self, then you probably need a less stressful hobby than online gaming. Might I suggest solitaire?

[AnticorRifling]

I'm sorry, did I make a thread about how I should be allowed to download media without paying for it and any company that wants me to pay them doesn't deserve my business? You will never see me steal revenue from a company and then follow up by openly complaining about them pointing it out.

I lol'd. I didn't make the thread so it's ok for me to say what you're doing is wrong but what I'm doing is ok!

[Bobmuhthol]

That's not what I said. I said I don't complain when people have a problem with me stealing from them. I also don't ask people to please not charge for me things. I readily admit that I download every show and movie that I watch, and I also recognize that it's irrelevant to the argument I'm making.

I had to go check my original post to make sure I didn't say the wrong thing, and I didn't. Media isn't a service (and I pay for the download service).

[Methais]

I pay for the download service

Why, when you can easy download the same shows without paying for the download service?

[Asha]

I thought he meant his ISP or whatever.

[Bobmuhthol]

Why, when you can easy download the same shows without paying for the download service?Because I can't. There are no free alternatives that are nearly as comprehensive or convenient. I haven't been involved in the torrenting game for years now, but I suspect you can't download HD shows the night they air at 300 Mbps.
I thought he meant his ISP or whatever.No, I am directly paying for server access.

My activity since July 13: 6.6 G Today 6.6 G This week 38.7 G This month 321.3 G Total

[Methais]

but I suspect you can't download HD shows the night they air at 300 Mbps.

That's exactly what I've been doing with The Walking Dead this season on Piratebay. Usually within an hour or 2 after it airs, most taking no more than 5-10 minutes to download in 720p.

[Keller]

I would tell them that if it is an inconvenience, they can add a second character slot for no charge. Otherwise, deal with it.

[Bobmuhthol]

That's exactly what I've been doing with The Walking Dead this season on Piratebay. Usually within an hour or 2 after it airs, most taking no more than 5-10 minutes to download in 720p.That's not really surprising given every nerd has a huge erection for the show, but the same seed depth doesn't hold up for every show. Servers don't discriminate, so the speed and availability is always there. I try to depend on other people as little as possible.

I also don't have to deal with ads, and that's always a benefit.

[Allereli]

wtf is this thread about?

[Tgo01]

wtf is this thread about?

People not paying for shit they use.

[Methais]

People not paying for shit they use and then complaining when the company says they should pay for shit they use.

Fixed.

[milesalpha]

That's not really surprising given every nerd has a huge erection for the show, but the same seed depth doesn't hold up for every show. Servers don't discriminate, so the speed and availability is always there. I try to depend on other people as little as possible.

I also don't have to deal with ads, and that's always a benefit.

I'm guilty of Red Dwarf and Merlin, within the hour of them playing in Great Britain. Neither show takes longer than 10 minutes to download, thanks to a bunch of addicts with good bandwidth and a terrific torrent site.

[Fortybox]

Pay the 3 bucks you cheap bish.

[AnticorRifling]

People not paying for shit they use.

But it's only bad when it's a service, when it's consumable content it's cool to not pay for it.

[Allereli]

thanks for the summary by the way, I asked because I didn't want to read it unless it was worth the time. Fuck you repper.

[mweaver123]

I currently pay for 2 accounts for myself and 2 for my girlfriend.

So, $60.00 is okay, but $62.50 is your breaking point? Clearly, money isn't an issue. You were being exceedingly annoying.

[Bobmuhthol]

But it's only bad when it's a service, when it's consumable content it's cool to not pay for it.You're honestly kind of being a fucking idiot about this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency

[AnticorRifling]

Yup I'm the fucking idiot because you steal. Mmmm dissonance.

[Bobmuhthol]

If I'm stealing, why isn't anyone worse off?

Actually, a more important question is why you think something that can't be consumed is "consumable content".

[Warriorbird]

If I'm stealing, why isn't anyone worse off?

Actually, a more important question is why you think something that can't be consumed is "consumable content".

To troll you.

[Parkbandit]

If I'm stealing, why isn't anyone worse off?

Actually, a more important question is why you think something that can't be consumed is "consumable content".

Pretty sure that is not the definition of stealing.

Do you believe plagiarism is ok?

[AnticorRifling]

If I'm stealing, why isn't anyone worse off?

Actually, a more important question is why you think something that can't be consumed is "consumable content".

So you're attempting to go the justification via "it's a victimless crime" route? The companies that produce the movies and shows you make are worse off, those actors and actresses that don't get royalties from pirated content are worse off, the people that pay increased rates to cover those people that don't pay for their shit are worse off.

Consumed means eaten only hurrrrr. I know you're not this stupid, why are you pretending to be?

[Asha]

I'd be all LOL and say I was drunk when I posted, Bob.
Instantly makes everything ok.

[Some Rogue]

So you're attempting to go the justification via "it's a victimless crime" route? The companies that produce the movies and shows you make are worse off, those actors and actresses that don't get royalties from pirated content are worse off, the people that pay increased rates to cover those people that don't pay for their shit are worse off.

Consumed means eaten only hurrrrr. I know you're not this stupid, why are you pretending to be?
In summary:
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMv4M4xKKkRlkqcPIJ7MV3HMOGDXS9m TuA5GlUBX9xreMFFMI_sRxqoXtn

[caelric]

Pressing 2 buttons is super hard.

You are assuming that doing so requires only pushing two buttons. In Simu's antiquated system, they probably have to re-image the entire server (all of the coat rack ghetto rig setup they have, that is) to do something simple like this.

On the other hand, yeah, I agree, billing generally has the best customer service of all Simu, and the OP is being a whiny little bitch.

[Bobmuhthol]

So you're attempting to go the justification via "it's a victimless crime" route? The companies that produce the movies and shows you make are worse off, those actors and actresses that don't get royalties from pirated content are worse off, the people that pay increased rates to cover those people that don't pay for their shit are worse off.

Consumed means eaten only hurrrrr. I know you're not this stupid, why are you pretending to be?The companies that produce the movies and shows I "make" (watch?) are not worse off. The alternative is that I don't watch those movies and shows. I would not buy a Netflix subscription, buy anything on iTunes/Amazon/whatever, etc. I don't have cable and I'm not getting cable. Under no circumstance would I give any more money to media companies if I did not download media. I just wouldn't watch those things. So, the alternatives are I watch them or I don't, and no one else is affected. I'm better or worse off; nobody else is. Please read the definition of Pareto efficiency again (or, more likely, for the first time).

I'm not sure what you're talking about by saying that "consumed means eaten only hurrrrr" and trying to say that I'm "not this stupid," particularly because you don't seem to know what consumable means. Something that doesn't deplete with use isn't consumable. It's durable. And that's sort of the whole point -- my downloading doesn't take away from anyone else.

[Bobmuhthol]

Pretty sure that is not the definition of stealing.

Do you believe plagiarism is ok?There most certainly must be a loss to the property owner for the act to be stealing. No loss, no theft. Plagiarism produces a loss, so no, it's not okay.

[EasternBrand]

Would you download a car? Also, does anyone have a good website where I can download a car?

[Latrinsorm]

I seen on the TV that you can download millions of cars at AutoTrader.com and choose the one that's just right for you. I advise reinforcing your ethernet port in some way.

[Methais]

There most certainly must be a loss to the property owner for the act to be stealing. No loss, no theft. Plagiarism produces a loss, so no, it's not okay.

Not that I have a problem with it or anything, but pirating is still classified as stealing.


Would you download a car? Also, does anyone have a good website where I can download a car?

http://www.downloadacar.com/

[Tgo01]

The companies that produce the movies and shows I "make" (watch?) are not worse off. The alternative is that I don't watch those movies and shows. I would not buy a Netflix subscription, buy anything on iTunes/Amazon/whatever, etc. I don't have cable and I'm not getting cable. Under no circumstance would I give any more money to media companies if I did not download media. I just wouldn't watch those things. So, the alternatives are I watch them or I don't, and no one else is affected. I'm better or worse off; nobody else is. Please read the definition of Pareto efficiency again (or, more likely, for the first time).

Really Bob, you're one of those people? "It's not really stealing because I wouldn't buy it anyway." At least the anonymous crowd admits it's stealing, they just don't care.

I guess going by that logic if I found a million dollars under Warren Buffett's mattress and stole it it's not really stealing because he would never actually spend that million dollars so he's no worse off after I stole the money than he was before I stole the money.

If someone got a song copyrighted but had no intentions of ever marketing it for a profit it would be okay if I stole it and sold it for a profit because the guy was never going to make money off of it, right?

[Bobmuhthol]

Not that I have a problem with it or anything, but pirating is still classified as stealing.It might be compared to stealing, but there's no criminal charge called "stealing media" because it would be inconsistent with legal theory. It's always copyright infringement, and that is true both for civil and criminal courts.

[Bobmuhthol]

Really Bob, you're one of those people? "It's not really stealing because I wouldn't buy it anyway." At least the anonymous crowd admits it's stealing, they just don't care.

I guess going by that logic if I found a million dollars under Warren Buffett's mattress and stole it it's not really stealing because he would never actually spend that million dollars so he's no worse off after I stole the money than he was before I stole the money.

If someone got a song copyrighted but had no intentions of ever marketing it for a profit it would be okay if I stole it and sold it for a profit because the guy was never going to make money off of it, right?You're picking and choosing arguments and folding them into a single argument that is both invalid and not anything that I said.

I say this every time someone uses the phrase "by that logic," but you're not going by my logic at all. You're very clearly violating logic, and I'm not.

[Tgo01]

You're picking and choosing arguments and folding them into a single argument that is both invalid and not anything that I said.

I say this every time someone uses the phrase "by that logic," but you're not going by my logic at all. You're very clearly violating logic, and I'm not.

You're wrong.

[Bobmuhthol]

Actually I'm not, but thanks.

[diethx]

Is this really being argued? That illegally downloading media isn't illegal?

[Bobmuhthol]

No.

[Tgo01]

Is this really being argued? That illegally downloading media isn't illegal?

No, Bob is splitting hairs that it's not "stealing" it's just "copyright infringement." Makes him sleep better at night I guess.

[Bobmuhthol]

That's not true either.

[Tgo01]

That's not true either.

The sleeping better part or the copyright infringement part?

[Parkbandit]

There most certainly must be a loss to the property owner for the act to be stealing. No loss, no theft. Plagiarism produces a loss, so no, it's not okay.

What loss is there? I copy a term paper you wrote 2 years ago and pass it off as my own. You aren't getting a loss because you already passed that course and I will probably get a big fat C on it.

Plagiarism, under your definition of theft, is AOK!

[Bobmuhthol]

I sleep terribly, but more importantly, I'm not moving the action from the stealing bucket to its close cousin copyright infringement. I'm explicitly saying that downloading media is not stealing.

[Methais]

It might be compared to stealing, but there's no criminal charge called "stealing media" because it would be inconsistent with legal theory. It's always copyright infringement, and that is true both for civil and criminal courts.

There's no criminal charge called "Ass to mouth in public" either, but I bet you'd still find yourself in legal trouble if you were caught doing it.

[Bobmuhthol]

What loss is there? I copy a term paper you wrote 2 years ago and pass it off as my own. You aren't getting a loss because you already passed that course and I will probably get a big fat C on it.

Plagiarism, under your definition of theft, is AOK!Here is an equally valid argument:

You are a man.
The sun is a star.
You believe that rape should be celebrated.

So, like I told Tgo01, you're not using my definition or reasoning. You're ignoring facts. I can do that too.

There's no criminal charge called "Ass to mouth in public" either, but I bet you'd still find yourself in legal trouble if you were caught doing it.Okay, I'll be more precise. Downloading media does not fall under any civil or criminal charges relating to theft. Public ass to mouth does fall under charges relating to sex in public, but that also means I can't call it murder, because it isn't.

[Parkbandit]

Here is an equally valid argument:

You are a man.
The sun is a star.
You believe that rape should be celebrated.

So, like I told Tgo01, you're not using my definition or reasoning. You're ignoring facts. I can do that too.
Okay, I'll be more precise. Downloading media does not fall under any civil or criminal charges relating to theft. Public ass to mouth does fall under charges relating to sex in public, but that also means I can't call it murder, because it isn't.

You aren't even making sense at this point... just digging in your heels because you want to believe you aren't doing anything wrong.

What exactly is the loss to you for that term paper I plagiarized from you?

[Bobmuhthol]

I'm not receiving credit for a work that I produced. Even if I decided that I value that at zero, and you turned in my work, I'm still not saying plagiarism is okay. I'm just saying that the original owner wasn't wronged. There are other consequences to plagiarism.

[Tgo01]

You aren't even making sense at this point... just digging in your heels because you want to believe you aren't doing anything wrong.

What exactly is the loss to you for that term paper I plagiarized from you?

This is exactly why all I said to him was "you're wrong." If he cared to actually debate this he would explain how what you and I are saying is different than what he is trying to claim. Instead all he gives is a fancy "you're wrong.

[Bobmuhthol]

I appreciate that you have a desire to debate the topic, but you flat out told me that "by my logic" something must be true. There's no debate there except to tell you that you came up with specific examples that were entirely irrelevant.

[Methais]

I sleep terribly, but more importantly, I'm not moving the action from the stealing bucket to its close cousin copyright infringement. I'm explicitly saying that downloading media is not stealing.

"Steal" is a synonym for "infringe".

http://thesaurus.com/browse/infringe?s=t

[Bobmuhthol]

Shit, you got me.

[AnticorRifling]

I appreciate that you have a desire to debate the topic, but you flat out told me that "by my logic" something must be true. There's no debate there except to tell you that you came up with specific examples that were entirely irrelevant.

You mean like "I'm not stealing, I'm breaking other laws"?

[Bobmuhthol]

You mean like "I'm not stealing, I'm breaking other laws"?Let's pretend that's what I said. If I'm right, it's still true that I'm not stealing, so anyone who claims that I am stealing is wrong -- so what's the discussion about?

[Parkbandit]

I'm not receiving credit for a work that I produced.

You received credit for that work 2 years ago when you received a grade in your class. You lose nothing, absolutely nothing by me stealing it 2 years later.


Even if I decided that I value that at zero, and you turned in my work, I'm still not saying plagiarism is okay. I'm just saying that the original owner wasn't wronged. There are other consequences to plagiarism.

Plagiarism is like stealing media.. there are consequences only when you are caught. Otherwise, in the example I offered, it shouldn't be considered a crime at all since the original "owner" didn't take a loss.

Like I said, by your definition, plagiarism is AOK, right? Or, are you just doing what I think you are doing and picking and choosing which laws/rules/moral codes you want to follow and then creating excuses in your mind to make you feel better about it?

[AnticorRifling]

I get it, it's not stealing because you're not denying someone else of that item, but you are denying the companies of revenue. If you don't want to pay for it, don't watch it. I don't pay for HBO or any other channels like that, as such I don't watch any of their programs. PB is right, you're just like most of us on the boards (or interweb in general) you can't be wrong you've got to hee haw and dig your heels. It's fine, we're used to it. When you're right, you're right and I've pointed it out. When you're wrong, you're wrong. Now you're just splitting hairs to justify being a douche, it's cool I guess. It's not stealing brah it's copyright violation.

Ignore the fact that you do hurt other consumers to make your points valid.

[Bobmuhthol]

You received credit for that work 2 years ago when you received a grade in your class. You lose nothing, absolutely nothing by me stealing it 2 years later.I already told you what my loss is. It's not my fault that you're repeatedly ignoring facts.
Plagiarism is like stealing media.. there are consequences only when you are caught.That's equivalent to saying murder is like plagiarism.. there are consequences only when you are caught.
Otherwise, in the example I offered, it shouldn't be considered a crime at all since the original "owner" didn't take a loss.That's not a valid conclusion. The original owner did take a loss. If the original owner gave permission to use the work, it's certainly not a crime -- but it can still get you expelled, because it's still plagiarism.
Like I said, by your definition, plagiarism is AOK, right?Wrong.
Or, are you just doing what I think you are doing and picking and choosing which laws/rules/moral codes you want to follow and then creating excuses in your mind to make you feel better about it?No, I'm applying reasonable thought and drawing conclusions.

[Parkbandit]

And I'm not saying I'm above stealing media. I have, on several occasions, watched illegal streaming video of pay per view events, downloaded music and movies/TV shows.

I know it's not right.. and I'm not creating excuses so I can somehow justify it in my mind.

[Tgo01]

I sleep terribly, but more importantly, I'm not moving the action from the stealing bucket to its close cousin copyright infringement. I'm explicitly saying that downloading media is not stealing.

Okay one step at a time here, are you admitting that what you're doing is illegal?

[AnticorRifling]

Let's pretend that's what I said. If I'm right, it's still true that I'm not stealing, so anyone who claims that I am stealing is wrong -- so what's the discussion about?

Agreed, I admit you're not stealing. You are breaking other laws, and in this day and age it should be stealing in my opinion by being a cheap ass. I stand corrected.

The discussion was about you saying something stupid about not paying for a service when you don't pay for other shit that you take for free instead of paying for them.

[Bobmuhthol]

I get it, it's not stealing because you're not denying someone else of that item, but you are denying the companies of revenue. If you don't want to pay for it, don't watch it. I don't pay for HBO or any other channels like that, as such I don't watch any of their programs. PB is right, you're just like most of us on the boards (or interweb in general) you can't be wrong you've got to hee haw and dig your heels. It's fine, we're used to it. When you're right, you're right and I've pointed it out. When you're wrong, you're wrong. Now you're just splitting hairs to justify being a douche, it's cool I guess. It's not stealing brah it's copyright violation.

Ignore the fact that you do hurt other consumers to make your points valid.So I shouldn't watch things because you don't want me to? Not because anyone is hurt by it, but because you're hurt by the idea of it? As far as premium channels, I can log in to my family's premium channel subscriptions online and just watch those shows, but I still download them. I could use a Slingbox from my house, which has tons and tons of cable channels, and watch those shows here. I do the more convenient thing. Is it still stealing? What if I download a game disc for a game I already purchased and broke/lost/whatever?

The system of piracy might cause prices to increase (probably not, but sure, let's allow for it), but my contribution to that system has no bearing on its existence.

[Parkbandit]

I already told you what my loss is.

What type of "credit" does anyone receive from a 2 year old term paper that has already been graded?


It's not my fault that you're repeatedly ignoring facts.

That's rich coming from you in this thread.


That's equivalent to saying murder is like plagiarism.. there are consequences only when you are caught.

Aside from your weak attempt at hyperbole, I somewhat agree. I believe some consequences of murder could be loss of sleep, nightmares, guilt, etc... and I doubt anyone would get that from stealing media.. but the real consequences of any crime are only realized when you are caught.


That's not a valid conclusion. The original owner did take a loss. If the original owner gave permission to use the work, it's certainly not a crime -- but it can still get you expelled, because it's still plagiarism.

No loss by the original owner, as illustrated now a number of times. Like you said, It's not my fault that you're repeatedly ignoring facts.

And no, we're not talking about the original owner giving you permission.. anymore than you receive permission from the original owners of the media you steal.


Wrong.No, I'm applying reasonable thought and drawing conclusions.

The only one here who believes you are actually applying reasonable thought is you.

[diethx]

I don't think anyone cares if you pirate media. You're just getting called out because of this hypocritical post:


I'll admit that I'm biased because I can't stand people who seem to think it's okay to intentionally avoid paying for a service.

It's ok, we can understand why you can't stand yourself.

[Methais]

I don't understand...you said earlier that pirating isn't stealing, but instead it's "copyright infringement". And apparently you think that infringement isn't stealing.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/Clipboard01-21.jpg

What exactly is it that I'm missing here?

Also, do these guys need to rename their organization due to inaccuracy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_Against_Copyright_Theft

[Bobmuhthol]

The discussion was about you saying something stupid about not paying for a service when you don't pay for other shit that you take for free instead of paying for them.My original point was and still is that it costs money for Simutronics to run their company, so to walk up to them and demand that they do something for free that everyone else pays for (unless people are hacking the servers, there's no way to circumvent needing 2 character slots to play 2 characters) is a shitty thing to do. I get annoyed when people avoid subway fares for the same reason. There's a direct impact. Whether a television show plays on my hard drive or doesn't isn't the same thing.

[Ysamine]

diggity..dig...dig..

Keep going Bob...I'm sure someone will come along and throw some dirt on you since you have clearly buried yourself here. If you had half a brain, you'd concede....oh wait...my bad...

[Parkbandit]

My original point was and still is that it costs money for Simutronics to run their company, so to walk up to them and demand that they do something for free that everyone else pays for (unless people are hacking the servers, there's no way to circumvent needing 2 character slots to play 2 characters) is a shitty thing to do. I get annoyed when people avoid subway fares for the same reason. There's a direct impact. Whether a television show plays on my hard drive or doesn't isn't the same thing.

So is it only TV shows that you are talking about when you talk about "stealing" media? What about movies? Games? Streaming video? Software?

Do you believe that when I watch a UFC event over a stream on the Internet.. that I am doing something wrong? I wasn't going to buy the PPV anyway... therefore it's a victimless crime?

[Bobmuhthol]

I don't understand...you said earlier that pirating isn't stealing, but instead it's "copyright infringement". And apparently you think that infringement isn't stealing.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/Clipboard01-21.jpg

What exactly is it that I'm missing here?

Also, do these guys need to rename their organization due to inaccuracy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_Against_Copyright_TheftNow look at steal -- infringe isn't a synonym. I didn't think you would actually use a dictionary argument twice, so my bad for not saying that the first time.

If I were distributing media, I totally agree that I'd be stealing, and there would be an associated loss. Absolutely true. But the system is already in place, and I'm just an end user. If piracy were effectively eliminated, I'd be the same person, just with fewer things to keep me entertained. The Federation Against Copyright Theft will not be knocking on my door anytime soon, though.

[Tgo01]

Okay one step at a time here, are you admitting that what you're doing is illegal?

.

[Androidpk]

So does this mean Samsung never stole from Apple?

[Bobmuhthol]

So is it only TV shows that you are talking about when you talk about "stealing" media? What about movies? Games? Streaming video? Software?

Do you believe that when I watch a UFC event over a stream on the Internet.. that I am doing something wrong? I wasn't going to buy the PPV anyway... therefore it's a victimless crime?No, it's not restricted to TV, but that is an example of something that I already "own" even though I'm downloading it. If you would truly otherwise not purchase the UFC event, then no, I do not believe that it is wrong to stream it, for the same reasons I've mentioned -- they're not missing out on money that you would give them (since you wouldn't), and you are better off as a result. An easy extension is to challenge me on why it isn't okay, then, for everyone to just download everything, and unfortunately people's preferences are unobservable. The fact is that I would not be buying the things that I download.

[Tgo01]

If piracy were effectively eliminated, I'd be the same person, just with fewer things to keep me entertained.

This argument is awesome too. It's easy for someone to say this when it's so easy to steal, sorry, "watch without paying" for said product.

[Methais]

Taking a good or using a service without paying for it when you are legally obligated to pay for it is stealing.

This argument has basically degenerated into the equivalent of, "If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it does it make a sound?"

Or "If nobody knew that Anticor was one of Haashek's super kids, is he still a super kid?"

[Bobmuhthol]

Okay one step at a time here, are you admitting that what you're doing is illegal?I don't know the copyright laws very well. It might be the case that it is illegal to privately own media that was obtained through illegal distribution (I freely admit that the piracy groups are committing crimes). So the best answer I can give is that I don't know whether what I'm doing is illegal. If it is, then sure, I'll admit to breaking the law, but there are also some really shitty laws on the books, so it's not exactly meaningful.

[Tgo01]

I don't know the copyright laws very well. It might be the case that it is illegal to privately own media that was obtained through illegal distribution (I freely admit that the piracy groups are committing crimes). So the best answer I can give is that I don't know whether what I'm doing is illegal. If it is, then sure, I'll admit to breaking the law, but there are also some really shitty laws on the books, so it's not exactly meaningful.

Wait, are you trolling us now? You're not sure if what you're doing is illegal?

[Bobmuhthol]

This argument is awesome too. It's easy for someone to say this when it's so easy to steal, sorry, "watch without paying" for said product.I would literally have to go into debt to afford this stuff. You might have a point if my net worth were above 0. It isn't. You might have a point if I used to pay for it, discovered the internet, and then stopped. I didn't.

[Methais]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glUf4PQ-vuU

[Bobmuhthol]

Wait, are you trolling us now? You're not sure if what you're doing is illegal?I'm not trolling anyone. I'm honestly not confident what the legality of it is. I've never heard of people being prosecuted for ownership, only distribution.

[diethx]

OH ok, so it's ok to steal when you don't have money to afford luxuries like TV shows and movies.

I wonder if I go steal some clothing, will that excuse fly? BUT, it's ok because I'd have to go into debt to buy this!!!

[Parkbandit]

Bob.. your embarrassing yourself at this point.

Please stop.

[Bobmuhthol]

OH ok, so it's ok to steal when you don't have money to afford luxuries like TV shows and movies.

I wonder if I go steal some clothing, will that excuse fly? BUT, it's ok because I'd have to go into debt to buy this!!!You've got to be fucking kidding, right?

[Androidpk]

I've never heard of people being prosecuted for ownership, only distribution.

Tell that to all the people sued by the RIAA.

[Tgo01]

I would literally have to go into debt to afford this stuff. You might have a point if my net worth were above 0. It isn't. You might have a point if I used to pay for it, discovered the internet, and then stopped. I didn't.

Are you honestly telling us you are so broke you couldn't afford to buy a 30 dollar movie or whatever the hell it is you're watching once a year or so? I understand you saying you watch so much shit you couldn't afford all of it, but couldn't you afford some of it?

[diethx]

You've got to be fucking kidding, right?

Yes, that is what everyone in this thread is saying to you right now.

[Bobmuhthol]

Tell that to all the people sued by the RIAA.Were their homes raided for suspicion of downloading "Call Me Maybe"? In every case I've heard of, and maybe it's not true (but if it isn't, I'd like to hear about it), the only way the RIAA can sue you is by establishing that you were distributing content. It's very easy to establish that for anyone sued because of P2P downloads (the point being that they were sued for uploading, not downloading). I don't upload anything, so I'm not contributing to piracy.

[Methais]

I'm not trolling anyone. I'm honestly not confident what the legality of it is. I've never heard of people being prosecuted for ownership, only distribution.

It's happened before, though probably fairly rare that they go after the downloaders instead of the uploaders.

Granted this one was in Sweden, but it was at the top of the list and I'm too lazy to search more.
http://www.geek.com/articles/news/15-year-old-facing-jail-time-for-downloading-24-movies-20110824/


I don't upload anything, so I'm not contributing to piracy.

Tyrone Biggums is a crackhead. He doesn't sell crack, so he's not contributing to the distribution of crack, despite the fact that if there were no crackheads, there would be nobody for the crack dealer to sell to.

[Bobmuhthol]

Are you honestly telling us you are so broke you couldn't afford to buy a 30 dollar movie or whatever the hell it is you're watching once a year or so? I understand you saying you watch so much shit you couldn't afford all of it, but couldn't you afford some of it?Sure, and I see movies in theaters probably once a month on average, I go to concerts a few times a year, etc. I'm not sneaking into theaters or concert venues, or stealing inventory from stores.

[Ysamine]

I'm pretty sure possession of of stolen property is a crime too. In some states, depending on the value of said item, its even a felony.

[Tgo01]

Sure, and I see movies in theaters probably once a month on average, I go to concerts a few times a year, etc. I'm not sneaking into theaters or concert venues, or stealing inventory from stores.

So basically your argument that you know for a fact you wouldn't purchase this stuff otherwise because you know you couldn't afford it is bullshit, right?

[Bobmuhthol]

I'm pretty sure possession of of stolen property is a crime too. In some states, depending on the value of said item, its even a felony.Certainly, but that law doesn't apply (yet?) to digital content, because you can't steal someone's digital content from them (you own a copy of it).

[Androidpk]

What if a prostitute gets raped, is it still a crime if the perp wasn't going to pay for it anyways?

[Bobmuhthol]

So basically your argument that you know for a fact you wouldn't purchase this stuff otherwise because you know you couldn't afford it is bullshit, right?No, the exact opposite. I'm increasing the amount of media that I have access to beyond the amount that I can afford to pay (at no detriment to anyone else), and I pay what I can afford to, just like I said. I wouldn't spend more if piracy were not an option; I would lose that access.

[Methais]

Pirating isn't always necessarily bad though. There have been games that I've pirated before that I otherwise wouldn't have purchased, but I enjoyed it so much that I ended up buying their other shit...sequels, etc.

[Methais]

What if a prostitute gets raped, is it still a crime if the perp wasn't going to pay for it anyways?

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/196066_376812125701346_830938138_n.jpg

[Bobmuhthol]

It's happened before, though probably fairly rare that they go after the downloaders instead of the uploaders.

Granted this one was in Sweden, but it was at the top of the list and I'm too lazy to search more.
http://www.geek.com/articles/news/15-year-old-facing-jail-time-for-downloading-24-movies-20110824/



Tyrone Biggums is a crackhead. He doesn't sell crack, so he's not contributing to the distribution of crack, despite the fact that if there were no crackheads, there would be nobody for the crack dealer to sell to.
One key aspect of the case is that it hinges on the boy sharing the movies as well as downloading them because of the way BitTorrent (http://www.geek.com/articles/tagged/bittorrent) works. Even though he didn’t realize this was happening, it does mean he was distributing stolen goods as well as downloading them in the first place. That addresses my point that I believe only distribution is actionable.

Take your crack example, change it to marijuana, and see how many people feel the same way about that argument. In either case, I have no issue with Tyrone beyond the fact that mere possession of Schedule I narcotics is illegal (I would not be upset if he were arrested for possession, for example). But I think it's an unfair comparison because piracy groups don't get paid to supply me with media.

[Tgo01]

No, the exact opposite. I'm increasing the amount of media that I have access to beyond the amount that I can afford to pay (at no detriment to anyone else)

Right there your argument falls apart. You have 20 dollars a month to spend on whatever you want. You decide to spend 20 dollars on product A and decide to not pay, yet still get use out of, product B. If it weren't possible to do this you would then make a choice to spend 20 dollars on product A or product B, perhaps you would then choose product B. As I said it's easy for someone in your position to claim they know for a fact they would never pay for this stuff because it's so readily available to view this stuff without paying.

You're right in the sense that as a whole of all companies they are only going to receive 20 dollars from you no matter what, the question is which company gets that 20 dollars? That's where your argument of "at no detriment to anyone else" is bullshit.

[Ysamine]

No, the exact opposite. I'm increasing the amount of media that I have access to beyond the amount that I can afford to pay (at no detriment to anyone else), and I pay what I can afford to, just like I said. I wouldn't spend more if piracy were not an option; I would lose that access.

So you are a cheap ass. Got it! You want it, but don't want to pay for it. And you justify stealing it, because you wouldn't get it otherwise. Heaven forbid you go without because it's beyond your means.

[Bobmuhthol]

I understand your argument, but you're just going to have to trust me that I don't pay for anything that I enjoy less than media that costs the same amount.

So you are a cheap ass. Got it! You want it, but don't want to pay for it. And you justify stealing it, because you wouldn't get it otherwise. Heaven forbid you go without because it's beyond your means.It would be really stupid for me to not take advantage of a system that increases my overall enjoyment. I don't know how that makes me cheap, but okay. It's still not stealing anyway.

[Parkbandit]

Your ability or inability to pay for a good or service has no bearing on whether you are stealing or not.

FFS

[Bobmuhthol]

It's not stealing, I've already said that.

[Candor]

The idiot was rude and it was his fault.

Also I am the only one allowed to be rude, so his being rude was rude to me. And that's rudely rude, which is rude.

So there.

[Tenlaar]

It's not stealing, I've already said that.

Would it make you feel better if people started calling it "being in possession of and using stolen goods?"

[Bobmuhthol]

The goods aren't stolen.

[Velfi]

This thread is funny. I like this thread.

[Suppressed Poet]

What the fuck is wrong with you people?!?

The glove did not fit OJ.

When the girl says no it really means yes.

Casey Anthony was a great mother.

There is nothing to be worried about allowing your kid to stay the night with Michael Jackson (rip).

The proper place to dispose of your used motor oil is down the storm drain.

AND...for Christ's sake people...it is certainly NOT stealing. It is file SHARING.

[TheEschaton]

You aren't entitled to entertainment, Bob. You cannot argue that you should be allowed to watch something that has X price on it without paying for it, because your downloading of it is irrelevant to the whole chain of theft. Media companies aren't denying your human rights when they put a price tag on entertainment. Also, your attempt to justify what you do as trying to counterbalance market forces is hilarious.

You're trying to run in syllogistic circles but it's failing miserably.

[Jarvan]

Is this really being argued? That illegally downloading media isn't illegal?

Yes, it is.

[Jarvan]

You aren't entitled to entertainment, Bob. You cannot argue that you should be allowed to watch something that has X price on it without paying for it, because your downloading of it is irrelevant to the whole chain of theft. Media companies aren't denying your human rights when they put a price tag on entertainment. Also, your attempt to justify what you do as trying to counterbalance market forces is hilarious.

You're trying to run in syllogistic circles but it's failing miserably.

He's Bob. He goes to MIT, therefor he is right and you are wrong TheE.

[Bobmuhthol]

You aren't entitled to entertainment, Bob. You cannot argue that you should be allowed to watch something that has X price on it without paying for it, because your downloading of it is irrelevant to the whole chain of theft. Media companies aren't denying your human rights when they put a price tag on entertainment. Also, your attempt to justify what you do as trying to counterbalance market forces is hilarious.

You're trying to run in syllogistic circles but it's failing miserably.I didn't make any of the arguments you've mentioned. I did not claim entitlement -- I claimed lack of damages. Using the word should implies that there is some authority making this decision, but there isn't one -- I do watch things, and there is no should or shouldn't about it. I don't know where you got the counterbalancing argument from, but it certainly wasn't me. I've addressed a lot of people trying to make a lot of points. Those were purely responses; likely none of them are particularly useful out of context, so they're neither essential to nor comprising my original argument.
He's Bob. He goes to MIT, therefor he is right and you are wrong TheE.You said it, not me.

[Gelston]

Damages or not, it is theft. Is it the worst kind? No. It is what it is. Stop trying to justify it, it doesn't matter and why do you care?

[WRoss]

Damages or not, it is theft. Is it the worst kind? No. It is what it is. Stop trying to justify it, it doesn't matter and why do you care?

Because he's right. He has to be right or it shatters his perfect world. We wouldn't want him rage quitting again.

[TheEschaton]

I didn't make any of the arguments you've mentioned. I did not claim entitlement -- I claimed lack of damages. Using the word should implies that there is some authority making this decision, but there isn't one -- I do watch things, and there is no should or shouldn't about it. I don't know where you got the counterbalancing argument from, but it certainly wasn't me. I've addressed a lot of people trying to make a lot of points. Those were purely responses; likely none of them are particularly useful out of context, so they're neither essential to nor comprising my original argument.You said it, not me.

There are damages, you are consuming their content, which they have put a presumably valid, legal price on, for free. Your argument that you would "otherwise not consume" that media is legally irrelevant, because...you are. The law doesn't really care about what your behavior might be had the circumstances been different. The only valid (legally speaking) decisions are to purchase the media from the media provider and consume it thusly (or gain legitimate possession of a once-legitimately purchased product, IE secondhand), or to not have access to that media. End of story. There is no situation where you can get it for free if they're not giving it freely which is valid, morally or even legally in your case. (This case being about entertainment, luxury items).

Philosophically, you're arguing that no damage is done because the damage is already done by someone else, and you're merely benefiting from it when you otherwise wouldn't be. The problems with that are twofold: 1) the damage done meets a demand - if there was no demand, there'd be no damage done, which has already been argued, and 2) the provider can't be competitive against free, stolen products; this leads to those fringe items which you say you would have otherwise not consumed but might have bought on impulse once when you're drunk and you want to get in touch with your female side so you want Call Me Maybe blaring from your boombox being complete non-entities in the marketplace, because you'll just download them for free against the copyright holder's wishes.

[Bobmuhthol]

Damages or not, it is theft. Is it the worst kind? No. It is what it is. Stop trying to justify it, it doesn't matter and why do you care?I have piece of paper with the word "blue" on it. You see it and decide to write "blue" on a similar piece of paper. You derive pleasure from owning this piece of paper. Have you stolen the paper from me? Am I missing it? Do I become depressed knowing that there's another piece of paper like mine in the world?

It's not theft.
Because he's right. He has to be right or it shatters his perfect world. We wouldn't want him rage quitting again.I'm not a fragile thing that can't handle being wrong. It is accurate to say that I'm right, though. Most people don't seem to care about being right, and that's fine. I do, and that's why I put a lot of effort into it.

[TheEschaton]

The word Blue is not a copyrighted material. The song "Blue" is. The TV show NYPD Blue is. It is the intellectual property of someone else, and you are appropriating it for your own use without their permission. That is illegal. Plain and simple.

Intellectual property is a fair bit more murky than real property, but it's not that murky.

[Back]

I don't see how Bobmuthal's situation is anything like the OP's situation.

If Bobmuthal were selling bootleg DVDs you all might have a point or if he were uploading copies of stuff for other people to watch. All he is doing is watching stuff other people have made available. Vincent Van Gogh did not get a dime for every person who looked at his paintings.

[Bobmuhthol]

I completely agree with you that it is protected by copyright and there is no legal safe harbor for it [copyright infringement]. Luckily, I never said there was.

[TheEschaton]

LoL, when the only person on your side is Back, Bob, you've lost the argument.

You cannot even begin to compare viewing a painting to downloading a copy of a television show which you don't have the rights to.

[Back]

LoL, when the only person on your side is Back, Bob, you've lost the argument.

You cannot even begin to compare viewing a painting to downloading a copy of a television show which you don't have the rights to.

Is character assassination a legitimate tactic in the lawyering world? because it seems like a bullshit excuse to me.

[TheEschaton]

It is a very commonly used tactic in the lawyering world - regardless, this isn't the lawyering world, and you're a moron.

[Tgo01]

Is character assassination a legitimate tactic in the lawyering world? because it seems like a bullshit excuse to me.

It's hard to assassinate the character of someone who has no character.

[Bobmuhthol]

There are damages, you are consuming their content, which they have put a presumably valid, legal price on, for free. Your argument that you would "otherwise not consume" that media is legally irrelevant, because...you are. The law doesn't really care about what your behavior might be had the circumstances been different. The only valid (legally speaking) decisions are to purchase the media from the media provider and consume it thusly (or gain legitimate possession of a once-legitimately purchased product, IE secondhand), or to not have access to that media. End of story. There is no situation where you can get it for free if they're not giving it freely which is valid, morally or even legally in your case. (This case being about entertainment, luxury items).

Philosophically, you're arguing that no damage is done because the damage is already done by someone else, and you're merely benefiting from it when you otherwise wouldn't be. The problems with that are twofold: 1) the damage done meets a demand - if there was no demand, there'd be no damage done, which has already been argued, and 2) the provider can't be competitive against free, stolen products; this leads to those fringe items which you say you would have otherwise not consumed but might have bought on impulse once when you're drunk and you want to get in touch with your female side so you want Call Me Maybe blaring from your boombox being complete non-entities in the marketplace, because you'll just download them for free against the copyright holder's wishes.For the sake of addressing this:

As before, yes, the law says copyright infringement is wrong, and therefore there's no legal way to infringe a copyright. I haven't disputed this. I still don't agree that the company suffers identifiable damages beyond the emotional turmoil of knowing that I watched their show. I guess the only thing I can say at this point is good luck finding a court to convict me, particularly of larceny.

I can't say precisely what my willingness to pay is for these goods, but I can guarantee that it is lower than the market price. I sort of have to hold onto my argument that my actions do not harm companies who weren't getting my business anyway.

[Back]

LoL, when the only person on your side is Back, Bob, you've lost the argument.

You cannot even begin to compare viewing a painting to downloading a copy of a television show which you don't have the rights to.

I watch stuff on HULU for free all the time.

What is your point?

[TheEschaton]

You have the rights to that, dumbass, because the provider gives it when they post their own content to Hulu. Jesus Christ you're a moron.


As before, yes, the law says copyright infringement is wrong, and therefore there's no legal way to infringe a copyright. I haven't disputed this. I still don't agree that the company suffers identifiable damages beyond the emotional turmoil of knowing that I watched their show. I guess the only thing I can say at this point is good luck finding a court to convict me, particularly of larceny.

I can't say precisely what my willingness to pay is for these goods, but I can guarantee that it is lower than the market price. I sort of have to hold onto my argument that my actions do not harm companies who weren't getting my business anyway.

And that's the crux of your argument. Problem is, it's irrelevant. They own it, they dictate the terms by which it's consumed. By consuming it outside the legal parameters they have set out for the distribution of their property, there are damages. At the very least you're taking away the ability to sell you the item, or at least try and sell you the item. Not to mention your argument that you "wouldn't pay the market price" is trite, at best - you don't have to pay the market price. You can choose not to use the product.

[Asha]

I don't think I've ever seen a thread more serious.

[Jarvan]

I am sure Bob would use this same justification to steal internet and cable from his neighbor if he didn't have it.

"Well, I wouldn't be paying for it anyway, so it's not like I am hurting anyone by stealing it"

Honestly, I'd love to see him use these tactics in front of a judge.

[Methais]

I don't see how Bobmuthal's situation is anything like the OP's situation.

If Bobmuthal were selling bootleg DVDs you all might have a point or if he were uploading copies of stuff for other people to watch. All he is doing is watching stuff other people have made available. Vincent Van Gogh did not get a dime for every person who looked at his paintings.

All these years on here...how do you manage to still spell Bob's name wrong?

/grammarnazi

[Asha]

All these years on here...how do you manage to still spell Bob's name wrong?

/grammarnazi

'Bobmuhthol' is not grammar.

/grammarnazi

[Parkbandit]

I watch stuff on HULU for free all the time.

What is your point?

Holy fucking hell.... you just buried the needle on the stupid meter.

[Tsk Tsk]

LOUD NOISES

[diethx]

We wouldn't want him rage quitting again.

Speak for yourself.


LOUD NOISES

Best post in the thread.

[Methais]

'Bobmuhthol' is not grammar.

/grammarnazi

Grammarnazi covers all spectrums and isn't just limited to grammar.

/grammarnazinazi

[Asha]

Toufuckingché

[Candor]

Is this thread STILL going? What a bunch of whiners!

[EasternBrand]

For the sake of addressing this:

As before, yes, the law says copyright infringement is wrong, and therefore there's no legal way to infringe a copyright. I haven't disputed this. I still don't agree that the company suffers identifiable damages beyond the emotional turmoil of knowing that I watched their show. I guess the only thing I can say at this point is good luck finding a court to convict me, particularly of larceny.

I can't say precisely what my willingness to pay is for these goods, but I can guarantee that it is lower than the market price. I sort of have to hold onto my argument that my actions do not harm companies who weren't getting my business anyway.

I can assure you that if you make an unauthorized download of a copyrighted work, you could be sued, you could lose, and the copyright holder could establish readily identifiable damages. A defense based on the argument that the work would not have enjoyed your patronage in any other circumstance would only go so far, which is to say nowhere at all. You're presenting your arguments strictly through the viewpoint of an economist, but I'm sure you understand that law and economics aren't always synchronous. I'm sure I could find a court that would hold you responsible and order recompense, and luck has nothing to do with it.

[Sean of the Thread]

All these years on here...how do you manage to still spell Bob's name wrong?

/grammarnazi

He's a dipshit.


I find that gif slightly erotic... not the dog the hot dog one.

Kill me.

[Tgo01]

I find that gif slightly erotic... not the dog the hot dog one.

Who hasn't had fantasies of throwing a package of hot dogs on a woman's face?

[Methais]

Who hasn't had fantasies of throwing a package of hot dogs on a woman's face?

And what woman hasn't had fantasies of having a package of hot dogs thrown on her face?

[Allereli]

And what woman hasn't had fantasies of having a package of hot dogs thrown on her face?

what are you doing tonight?

[4a6c1]

what are you doing tonight?

He's throwing hotdogs on my face. gtfo.

[Methais]

Relax ladies, I have enough for both of you.

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/ap/hot%20dog%20beef--1221625536_v2.grid-6x2.jpg

[Parkbandit]

Relax ladies, I have enough for both of you.

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/ap/hot%20dog%20beef--1221625536_v2.grid-6x2.jpg

You have fat girlie hands.

[Warriorbird]

You have fat girlie hands.

Those bangle bracelets are for real.

[Asha]

It's a slippery slope. It all starts with hotdogs.

[Methais]

Those bangle bracelets are for real.

Real vultite.

[4a6c1]

Real vultite is only twelve characters. You can keep them.

[FaenorDragonfly]

If I'm stealing, why isn't anyone worse off?

Actually, a more important question is why you think something that can't be consumed is "consumable content".

Didn't Metallica have a huge thing about this a few years ago? They won a lawsuit that said that downloading unpaid for digital content was stealing, and they shut some company or another down? I think it definitely is a grey area. I am sure none of the actors or crew on Walking Dead are in danger of starving to death, but in all fairness, they do get a piece of the digital content pie, and when they are cut out of the loop, you are pretty much stealing from real people as well as the companies that would otherwise profit.

[Warriorbird]

In defense of Bob.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18817_5-reasons-future-will-be-ruled-by-b.s..html

[AbnInfamy]

Late to the game Necro!

" It is against the law both to upload and download the copyrighted works of others without express permission to do so. It is stealing and both civil and criminal penalties are severe. Criminal penalties for first-time offenders can be as high as five years in prison and $250,000 in fines even if the offender didn't do it for monetary or financial commercial gain."

http://www.mass.gov/ago/about-the-attorney-generals-office/community-programs/cyber-crime-and-internet-safety/cyber-crimes/illegal-downloads-copyright-file-sharing-and-.html

[Geijon Khyree]

[COLOR=#333333]We clearly live in different worlds, because I would never call that response rude.

Okay so I read the rest of your post, and what you wanted him to do was act like a fucking idiot while still saying the same thing, but longer and less directly. Have you by chance ever worked at a call center? The apologetic attitude is fucking condescending and unproductive.
COLOR]

Customers are 50 foot tall giants on the phone. The stuff that happens over the phone would almost never occur in person. Even when you tell them directly "No, you do not qualify for an online only exclusive offer for new customers" they say I want it or I'm leaving or "Your son ordered $300.00 in porn. It's your responsibility. We are not responsible for your families viewing habits" and they respond you won't get a dime and hang up or it's not my fault.

Complete lack of accountability.

[Geijon Khyree]

Chris is female and she's the boss, you get to be rude when you're the boss and sometimes you have to just so the customer gets the point

Yep. She was aggressive, but this billing behavior is irritating and on purpose. You are circumventing paying.

[Geijon Khyree]

I think the proper phrase should be "If you want to ensure you keep as many customers as possible, you will do what the customer asks". Customers are wrong all the time. Especially the ones who cite that the customer is always right. They just say that because they want to get their way.

Companies are usually willing to compromise. When the customer isn't after the company has moved 50-80% in their direction. You end the relationship like you would with a significant other. There are certain customers a company does not want. Companies have budgets per customer, per tech visit, per call, whatever. Customers quickly become more costly than their value.

[Bobmuhthol]

Late to the game Necro!

" It is against the law both to upload and download the copyrighted works of others without express permission to do so. It is stealing and both civil and criminal penalties are severe. Criminal penalties for first-time offenders can be as high as five years in prison and $250,000 in fines even if the offender didn't do it for monetary or financial commercial gain."

http://www.mass.gov/ago/about-the-attorney-generals-office/community-programs/cyber-crime-and-internet-safety/cyber-crimes/illegal-downloads-copyright-file-sharing-and-.htmlThe problem here is that Martha Coakley fucking sucks.

[BUBBAcHEWY]

Bob

Ok, so if someone commits murder(illegaly distributes media) and they tell you/show you evidence/ give you the evidence etc.(you downloading media knowing its illegally distributed) when they are caught since murder is against the law/illegal(them distrubuting) and the authorities for some reason traced something back to you. That you wouldnt be an accessory to murder(downloaded media knowing it was wrong illegaly distributed and having evidence on your HD to incriminate your knowing of and motives).

Or is that way off? Im no lawyer or anything, but I think your prolly going to be in trouble in some way no matter big or small?

Anyways I think they should cut something manly off... and no not your ego no matter how small it is.

[BUBBAcHEWY]

(Bob at local burger joint)

I buy a burger everyonce and a while who the hell are they to tell me I cant have the remote to the television! Fak!

::Bob "borrows" the remote::

[RichardCranium]

Who invited Downsy McGee?

[Methais]

Who invited Downsy McGee?

Corky Thatcher.

[BUBBAcHEWY]

Was actually Tittsworth & Grabbe attorneys at law. Good guys.


Who invited Downsy McGee?

LOL! That was a good one. :) Sorry guys I guess i'm a little late to the party. I ended up just posting after reading around 9 or so pages late last night/early morning. This thread was getting wild.

Most of the time I know when I should be quiet so back to that. Especially when you get Methais jumping into the monk threads "Does Transformation Lore let monks transform into pandas?" rofl :)