Comparison of weighting to equivalent enchant

[DaCapn]

In my opinion, nothing bold is being stated here. This is just to settle a personal dispute. Feel free to disregard if you do not care.

My entire point is that you can take weighting and compare it to an equivalent higher enchantment. Say we're dealing with 5 points of weighting on a battle axe vs scale armor (0.5 DF) with 0 padding. Weighting/DF should give you the equivalent enchant boost. In our example, a SWCW battle axe is effectively +10 enchant above the unweighted equivalent (5/0.5=10). All presuming that the following is true:

Maximum Critical Rank = Truncate[ ( (Endroll - 100) * Damage Factor - Padding Points + Weapon Weighting ) / Critical Divisor ]
Final Critical Rank = Critical Randomization Function[ Maximum Critical Rank ]

One major thing being ignored is the fact that a rank 1 critical must be achieved in order for weighting to come into play (if you've ever plinked off of something wearing robes with a 107 endroll swinging a claidhmore and then crit-kill it with a 108, you've seen this effect). Anyway, it's not a 1:1 comparison for this reason so take the endrolls which result in rank 1 criticals and below with a grain of salt.

I made a little spreadsheet to illustrate this fact which I think is obvious upon inspection of the above formula. Screenshot below, spreadsheet attached.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5421/endrollweighting.jpg

[Drew]

I'm surprised that the values are exactly the same in all scenarios. So there is essentially no difference ever between 1 enchant and swcw? They are statistically exactly the same on every armor?

[Riltus]

I'm surprised that the values are exactly the same in all scenarios. So there is essentially no difference ever between 1 enchant and swcw? They are statistically exactly the same on every armor?

No. All he is showing is that by simply dividing critical weighting by the weapon DF you can determine the equivalent enchant bonus that would be required to result in the same maximum critical rank before randomization. Weapon critical weighting, unlike weapon damage weighting does not randomize.

Enchant Bonus = Crit Weighting / Damage Factor

You can substitute any values in the formula.

The enchant bonus required to equal 10 points of crit weighting for a weapon with a damage factor of .250 is:

Enchant Bonus = 10 points of weighting / .250 weapon damage factor
Enchant Bonus = +40

So, a weapon with a .250 DF, without weighting, would need an enchant bonus of +40 to result in the same maximum critical rank of the weighted weapon. This does not mean that a weapon with a .250 DF and 10 points of weighting is as effective as the same unweighted weapon with an 8x enchant. It is not. The 8x enchant weapon will inflict more raw damage.

Mark

[DaCapn]

It might be confusing since I'm not saying anything complex at all.

This is really all I'm saying in the above post:
(a-100)*b-c+d = e
(a+d/b-100)*b-c = e

a: endroll
b: DF
c: padding
d: weighting

I pretty much already stated that in my initial arguments so I over-described here (what else should I say?).

The person that disagreed was saying that R(e) = f (where R is the critical randomization function, and f is the final critical rank) and that R is a non-linear transform and that the probabilities of R(e) change for static values of e for different values of a,b,c,d (e.g. e=10+30+50+10=100 and e=5+35+30+30=100 should produce different distributions of f).

So sticking to the example in the spreadsheet, I'm saying that a +0 enchant battle axe with 5 points of weighting is equivalent to one with 0 points of weighting with an enchant of +7.69, +10.53, +10, +13.33, and +18.18 vs cloth, leather, scale, chain, and plate respectively (see Weighting/DF row). Again, I'm ignoring the rank 1 critical threshold for weighting and I'm not truncating/rounding the enchant properly.

[DaCapn]

Just to clarify, Mark, you agree with me?

[Bobmuhthol]

Except a weapon with +0 enchant will not have the same endrolls as a weapon with +40 enchant, so...

I may have spoken too soon. I don't really understand what the argument is yet.


I'm surprised that the values are exactly the same in all scenarios.
It's actually really silly that he went through all the tables, because his equations are literally identical. They'll always report the same values because they're the same function.

I think I get it a little more now.

Basically, you're conditioning on a "good" hit: the endroll is so high on the weighted weapon that AS differences don't matter anymore, and an enchanted weapon is obviously going to have an even higher endroll, so it's fine. So, conditional on a sufficiently high endroll, the extra benefit of weighting has some particular enchantment equivalent. But this is obvious without any need to prove it: critical weighting adds phantom damage, and damage is excess endroll discounted by some factor, so naturally critical weighting damage is equivalent to some amount of excess endroll (which is perfectly positively correlated with weapon enchant). You've proven that algebra is consistent, but you still haven't proven that your claim is correct. If you're right that the final rank is a function only of maximum critical rank, and maximum critical rank is the linear function you claim, your entire argument is (long, but) correct. But there's no evidence that the functions are defined in line with reality.

[Drew]

Clearly I did not understand the intent of this.

[Helsfeld]

it was a lnet argument he was claiming his 4x SWCW battle axe equals a 7x battle axe ... someone called bullshit he posted this, and yes a 4x SWCW battle axe is still 400k

[DaCapn]

It's actually really silly that he went through all the tables, because his equations are literally identical. They'll always report the same values because they're the same function.

That's why I was surprised that someone would disagree with me.


If you're right that the final rank is a function only of maximum critical rank, and maximum critical rank is the linear function you claim, your entire argument is (long, but) correct. But there's no evidence that the functions are defined in line with reality.[/COLOR]

Agreed 100%. I'm demonstrating an (obvious) property of that expression. The person that I was going back and forth with agreed that the expression were true as a starting point. So again, I apologize if this thread comes off as "hey guys look at this" when it's actually "hey guy (singular) look at this."


it was a lnet argument he was claiming his 4x SWCW battle axe equals a 7x battle axe ... someone called bullshit he posted this, and yes a 4x SWCW battle axe is still 400k

I asked for a price check and I'm more than willing to accept your assessment as true. What people are willing to pay is affected by a non-analytical portion of human feelings. And I'd like to acknowledge that I wasn't playing a hard sell ("hey man, it's this, people should pay at least 10 times that") and my continuous use of "approximate" and repeated pointing out of limitations and assumptions and my lack of "it equals 7x." Mostly irrelevant: it is also sanctified.

But, as you see, if you trust those expressions, it can perform roughly on the scale of a 6x-8x weapon under many circumstances.

[Suppressed Poet]

That's why I was surprised that someone would disagree with me.



Agreed 100%. I'm demonstrating an (obvious) property of that expression. The person that I was going back and forth with agreed that the expression were true as a starting point. So again, I apologize if this thread comes off as "hey guys look at this" when it's actually "hey guy (singular) look at this."



I asked for a price check and I'm more than willing to accept your assessment as true. What people are willing to pay is affected by a non-analytical portion of human feelings. And I'd like to acknowledge that I wasn't playing a hard sell ("hey man, it's this, people should pay at least 10 times that") and my continuous use of "approximate" and repeated pointing out of limitations and assumptions and my lack of "it equals 7x." Mostly irrelevant: it is also sanctified.

But, as you see, if you trust those expressions, it can perform roughly on the scale of a 6x-8x weapon under many circumstances.

I'm comming into this late, but I do see your argument.

One advantage that a higher enchant weapon has over a lesser enchant with weighting is the additional raw hit point damage. This is seperate from the critical damage derived from the crit rank and coresponding critical damage. This is rather minor, but still..

Also I think the general perception of the population would rather have a 7x and try to add a combat script (weighting/flares/etc.) vs. a 4x SWCW. 4X is standard and SWCW isn't a whole lot of weighting, which means a terrible canidate for future upgrades. It's not worth spending PP to enchant, and the small ammount of weighting is more of a hinderance for additional weighting with merchants. Plus, you are locked into crit weighting (as opposed to the other options) unless you manage to remove it. The upgrade factor makes a night and day difference.

Last, as you already mentioned, you have to reach at least the minimum crit rank for that to kick in as relative equivelancy of the higher enchant.

In summary, I would take the higher enchant any day but I agree the two examples would preform similarly. I'd consider that as a cheap non-upgradable alternative.

[Riltus]

Just to clarify, Mark, you agree with me?

Yes! With one caveat. If DEX bonus is 0. The stacking of DEX bonus weighting and weapon weighting is still a bit murky. The full point value of dex bonus weighting is added to all attacks with non-weighted weapons. When stacked, the value of DEX bonus weighting and weapon weighting may be somewhat less the sum of the two but it has been difficult to pin down. If it doesn't fully stack then the value of the weapon weighting is diminished.

Mark

[Archigeek]

You're completely forgeting about sex appeal. Big numbers are sexy. SCSW is not. Also, if you can't hit it, SCSW means nothing. It isn't about 107 v 108 end rolls, it's about 95 v 130 end rolls. Your math may be accurate, but if you can't hit it at all, or can't get above the threshold, math is a very small consolation.

[Suppressed Poet]

In his comparison it would be 95 vs. 110 endrolls (4x vs 7x) and I think you mean SWCW. Still, a valid point nonetheless.

[Archigeek]

Another factor is that as often as not with THW's, you're well past the threshold for a death crit. Crit weighting is like putting spikes on the grill of your Mack truck. Whatever you hit is dead either way. That said, I'm still a big fan of crit weighting, but moreso with weapons with lower base damage factors like OHE's.

[Suppressed Poet]

Also...which one would you rather bring to EG to have on hand?

Also also... when, rather than if, you get the AG bounty to hunt the undead which would you rather have?

Also also also... for the few sneaky types that ambush THWs from hiding, which would they want?

The overall comparison is just narrow in scope and so many other factors exist. The 4x SWCW is inferior, but can substitute as a cheaper alternative with comparable crits for regular (not hiding + ambush) attacks against living opponents.

[Drakefang]

The overall comparison is just narrow in scope and so many other factors exist. The 4x SWCW is inferior, but can substitute as a cheaper alternative with comparable crits for regular (not hiding + ambush) attacks against living opponents.

For many millions less silvers. Marketing it as the common man's 7x might be a good way to sell it for 500-750k. For many players these cheaper alternatives are their only route to upgrading. I think we tend to lose sight of the fact many players still don't buy silvers and don't have millions in the bank. I do agree, certainly, that it's not the same value as a 7x axe, because of rarity (potential, too) and not performance.

[Suppressed Poet]

For many millions less silvers. Marketing it as the common man's 7x might be a good way to sell it for 500-750k. For many players these cheaper alternatives are their only route to upgrading. I think we tend to lose sight of the fact many players still don't buy silvers and don't have millions in the bank. I do agree, certainly, that it's not the same value as a 7x axe, because of rarity (potential, too) and not performance.

I agree.

It is a selling point to highlighting the benefits. It is not a lie, just needs an * and maybe fine print. I see nothing wrong with that, and after all caveat emptor.

[Guenhafyr]

Might not the answer also depend partly on whether or not the character is ambushing from hiding? An ambushing rogue or ranger will get a crit rank upgrade and would probably prefer the higher enchanted weapon, while a warrior mstriking from the open might want an HCW weapon. (Fel hafted waraxe, or the like). Needless to say, the higher the crit weighting the better. SWCW seems a bit underpowered to me.

[DaCapn]

Might not the answer also depend partly on whether or not the character is ambushing from hiding? An ambushing rogue or ranger will get a crit rank upgrade and would probably prefer the higher enchanted weapon, while a warrior mstriking from the open might want an HCW weapon. (Fel hafted waraxe, or the like). Needless to say, the higher the crit weighting the better. SWCW seems a bit underpowered to me.

Your question suggests that there was intent to provide some manner of advice (which there wasn't). But yes, I do essentially agree with your statements. In the context of ambushing, that is basically the advice I give: delivering a rank 1 critical is more important than boosting an already delivered critical so you'll want as high of an enchant as possible. Open TWC is outside my area of interest but I also basically agree here. You have two shots to get a rank 1 critical and, lacking weighting from ambush, will want as much weighting as possible.

It's great to know that you may want a fel hafter and while they may seem cheap to many of us, they don't seem so cheap to many others. While not strictly the intent of the thread, I think the content may be food for thought to some who are on a budget and haven't really thought about how the whole system works.