Oct 11th Vice Presidential Debate Thread

[Back]

A thread to talk about the debate tonight.

Go Binden!!!

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSFk7PmPHiLdFwyB39p78djzvuHquPSN BEOXx_mzBesE0lC7BV3FQVs48Nqeg

[Androidpk]

Binden has this thang on lockdown.

[Tgo01]

Well the good news for Biden is he can't possibly do any worse than Obama did.

[Androidpk]

Well the good news for Biden is he can't possibly do any worse than Obama did.

I think you are underestimating Joe Biden.

[Back]

I am actually disappointed with Ryan. Up until he was selected by Romney he seemed like an upright kind of guy. Turns out he has no substance.

[Parkbandit]

I am actually disappointed with Ryan. Up until he was selected by Romney he seemed like an upright kind of guy. Turns out he has no substance.

lol

[Back]

I'm glad they scheduled this to not overlap with the premier of the new season of It's Always Sunny.

[Showal]

I think you are underestimating Joe Binden.

I can't wait to watch Binden do his thing.

[kookiegod]

Will Biden drop the fbomb when Ryan outwits him?

[Showal]

Binden!!

[Androidpk]

http://i50.tinypic.com/21orjeo.jpg

[Jarvan]

A Pontiac, really Joe!!

[Showal]

http://www.gallup.com/poll/157994/vice-presidential-debates-rarely-influence-voters.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=syndication

Going to be important!

[Parkbandit]

Binden!!

What does "Binden" mean in German? I image searched it and it came up with panty shields.. but they are all from German sites?

[4a6c1]

Ryan is hot. I wish he would just not say anything and take his shirt off instead. I want Biden to say stupid things SO BAD but you know he has probably been coached into submission for this one. It will probably be boring.

[Showal]

http://youtu.be/UHdSahEsIC4

The guy introducing the video is pretty annoying but the clip is great.

[4a6c1]

Hah Brian Williams is hilarious.

[msconstrew]

Ryan is hot.

One of the male, mid-40s conservative lawyers I know was recently gushing to me about his "movie star good looks." LOL. To me, his ears = Alfred E Neuman.

[Showal]

What does "Binden" mean in German? I image searched it and it came up with panty shields.. but they are all from German sites?


Maybe something to do with ties??

[4a6c1]

Ahahaha.

http://rackjite.com/wp-content/uploads/ryanalfred.jpg

[Showal]

4109


One of the male, mid-40s conservative lawyers I know was recently gushing to me about his "movie star good looks." LOL. To me, his ears = Alfred E Neuman.

[Warriorbird]

Biden needs to pull up a couple women from the audience. One for each knee.

[Kuyuk]

Wow, Paul Ryan is 42? Looks damn good for 42..

[Warriorbird]

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/181u5acpq4f8yjpg/original.jpg

[Atlanteax]

What's the deal with Biden smirking so much?

[Warriorbird]

What's the deal with Biden smirking so much?

Those of us who have souls call that a smile.

[Back]

I am amazed at how well Ryan knows what the Ayatolla thinks.

[4a6c1]

He is laughing a lot. He looks a bit like jolly ole Saint Nick.

[Tgo01]

I am amazed at how well Ryan knows what the Ayatolla thinks.

He's a terrorist!

[Jarvan]

It's not a smile, it's a shit eating grin, I swear I would be expecting him to offer to sell me some swamp land in Florida.

[Kuyuk]

He is laughing a lot. He looks a bit like jolly ole Saint Nick.

Pretty much - every time Ryan talks he busts out laughing.. hmm.

[4a6c1]

He's a terrorist!

You would know! Terrence the Highwayman.

[Warriorbird]

It's not a smile, it's a shit eating grin, I swear I would be expecting him to offer to sell me some swamp land in Florida.

Let me just repeat the soul comment.

[Atlanteax]

Ryan just pwn'd Biden with the "words do not quite come out your mouth right" comment.

[4a6c1]

FINALLY HE MENTIONS THE 47 PERCENT VIDEO

[Back]

God it's almost not even fair. I feel sorry for Ryan.

[Warriorbird]

Ryan just pwn'd Biden with the "words do not quite come out your mouth right" comment.

I feel like you're watching the debate with the invisible Biden.

[4a6c1]

Yeah Bidens killing it. Ryan trashing Stimulus money and Biden mentions a letter Ryan sent asking for some of it for his state.

[Showal]

I fact checked Ryan's claim of the Nixon family from northboro MA. True. My girlfriend knows them.

[Androidpk]

You would know! Terrence Gippypants the Highwayman.

Don't be so impolite as to leave out the mans surname!

[Warriorbird]

Yeah Bidens killing it. Ryan trashing Stimulus money and Biden mentions a letter Ryan sent asking for some of it for his state.

I want him to talk about how Ryan's plan would make Romney's taxes 1% or how Ryan went to college based on Social Security.

[Jarvan]

Let me just repeat the soul comment.

lol. You really do have issues. Are you implying I am without a soul?

[Back]

Ryan just pwn'd Biden with the "words do not quite come out your mouth right" comment.

PWND? Nah. It was a good natured jest. Pre-scripted I am certain.

[Back]

I already ate all my popcorn. Damn I make good popcorn.

[Tgo01]

I already ate all my popcorn. Damn I make good popcorn.

Do you wear special gloves when you push the Popcorn button on the microwave?

[Atlanteax]

He is laughing a lot. He looks a bit like jolly ole Saint Nick.

I keep expecting him to burst out laughing with contempt any moment.

It is as if he can barely restrain himself.

[Back]

Do you wear special gloves when you push the Popcorn button on the microwave?

I don't do microwave popcorn and I can't reveal the secret family recipe and technique.

[Tgo01]

I don't do microwave popcorn and I can't reveal the secret family recipe and technique.

I don't think I want to know...

[Atlanteax]

Biden has 17 minutes and Ryan has 16 when Biden accused Ryan of monopolizing 4 minutes... oops!

[Kuyuk]

I love watching the speaking timer tick by 1 second every time Biden quips in..

[Back]

Biden is using the camera well.

[Back]

I don't think I want to know...

Oh, but you do. You really really do.

[4a6c1]

I want to know. I like popcorn.

[Fallen]

I think Biden muttered the word "bullshit" under his breath once when Ryan was talking.

[Jarvan]

Seems like Biden's idea of debating is interrupting and talking over the other person.

[Atlanteax]

(from the other thread)


At no point did I say Obama was well mannered. I criticized Romney for an excess of interruptions and talking through people.

What's your thoughts on Biden's "manners" tonight?

[Back]

Seems like Biden's idea of debating is interrupting and talking over the other person.

I think he is playing footsie with the moderator under the table.

[Tgo01]

I just tuned into debate and I'll be honest I don't watch debates all that often. Does the moderator usually grill the candidates like this moderator is grilling Ryan? I thought they just asked questions, not interrupted them during their answers and totally changed the questions and shit. Well to be fair looks like she's doing the same shit to Biden. Do debates usually go like this? She seems kind of annoying.

[Back]

I just tuned into debate and I'll be honest I don't watch debates all that often. Does the moderator usually grill the candidates like this moderator is grilling Ryan? I thought they just asked questions, not interrupted them during their answers and totally changed the questions and shit. Well to be fair looks like she's doing the same shit to Biden. Do debates usually go like this? She seems kind of annoying.

You know, it has struck me how proud I am that in this country we actually have debates let alone televise them. That we are here, and my friends on Facebook and Twitter, are all discussing this real time. Its really fucking amazing. And I am glad for it.

[Kuyuk]

I think she's great.

Ask them to provide specifics.

Sadly he cant. and wont...

and I think Biden is only interrupting when (he believes) Ryan is lying..

[Parkbandit]

It's like it's 2 on 1 in this debate. If Biden doesn't interrupt everything Ryan says, she does.

I would actually give Biden a lead right now.. but he's coming across as a douchebag.

[4a6c1]

It's pretty typical for a GOOD moderator. She's interrrupted Biden too.

[Gompers]

Biden is looking rather Jon Voight-ish lately.

[Jarvan]

I think she's great.

Ask them to provide specifics.

Sadly he cant. and wont...

and I think Biden is only interrupting when (he believes) Ryan is lying..

Well.. Obama learned the reason why not to give specifics either, hence why he doesn't anymore.

[Kuyuk]

It's like it's 2 on 1 in this debate. If Biden doesn't interrupt everything Ryan says, she does.

I would actually give Biden a lead right now.. but he's coming across as a douchebag.

I agree mostly with this; he's coming across kinda like a douchebag - however, I believe he's doing much better than Ryan - but I like that Ryan is respectful and not interrupting.

[Atlanteax]

You know, it has struck me how proud I am that in this country we actually have debates let alone televise them. That we are here, and my friends on Facebook and Twitter, are all discussing this real time. Its really fucking amazing. And I am glad for it.

True enough ... I was struck by how little of this occurs in Japan, whereas the politicans are generally limited to running ads (usually in the paper) and politicking in the streets. My understanding is that the Japanese populace would like an election process as we currently enjoy, with debates on issues.

[Back]

It's pretty typical for a GOOD moderator. She's interrrupted Biden too.

She is doing a great job. And I agree with the comment that Ryan is being respectful. Biden is coming across as an angry old man.

[Tsk Tsk]

This is much more entertaining than Obama Vs. Romney, I'm pleasantly surprised.

[Jarvan]

It is much more entertaining.

[Warriorbird]

I think we all can agree on that.

[Atlanteax]

Biden looked flushed just now trying to be assertive about how to handle Syria ... and asking if Romney's response will involve American boots on the ground.

Sorta seems like he was overtaxing himself for a bit there when he had to catch his breath and repeat himself.

[Atlanteax]

She is doing a great job. And I agree with the comment that Ryan is being respectful. Biden is coming across as an angry old man.

I'd say Biden is being aggressive because he was coached/asked to be so ... to help make up for Romney 'beating' Obama in the prior debate.

So the question I'd ask if he's being 'too' aggressive tonight vs measured assertiveness.

[4a6c1]

No, not too assertive. He needs to appeal to white male independants.

[Back]

Abortion! She is a great moderator.

[Gompers]

I can't wait for Ryan to avoid this upcoming abortion question!!

[kookiegod]

I'd say Biden is being aggressive because he was coached/asked to be so ... to help make up for Romney 'beating' Obama in the prior debate.

So the question I'd ask if he's being 'too' aggressive tonight vs measured assertiveness.

I am not for either party at this point, but I am thinking Biden won in a landslide tonight.

He did the dirty work that Obama didn't do and hammered on many points, and mocked Ryan repeatedly.

~Paul

[Jarvan]

I like how Biden says he believes in "helping those who can't help themselves".

How much does Biden donate to charities every year?

[Atlanteax]

I thought Ryan handled the abortion question as well as he could, but Biden is easily winning the argument with "not his place to tell people what to do with their bodies".

[Gompers]

Slam dunk on Biden's response to the abortion question. Not the government's decision.

[Jarvan]

I am not for either party at this point, but I am thinking Biden won in a landslide tonight.

He did the dirty work that Obama didn't do and hammered on many points, and mocked Ryan repeatedly.

~Paul

Sorry Paul, but I am not sure that mocking your opponent is generally a good thing in a debate.

[Warriorbird]

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/487018_10151277901611081_1423706423_n.jpg

[Tgo01]

It's obvious Ryan is losing on purpose. Or maybe it's the altitude.

[kookiegod]

Sorry Paul, but I am not sure that mocking your opponent is generally a good thing in a debate.

Oh probably not, but I was amused. I thought Ryan would do a LOT better, but as been said, Biden handled a lot of questions far better (abortion, taxes, the 47 percent), and Ryan when pressed on specifics backed down.

[Kuyuk]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/8030/large/RTR391HW.jpg?1350007883
Pretty much sums up the debate..

[Gompers]

Ryan's closing statement while staring into the camera was borderline hypnotic. And I didn't mean that in a good way.

[4a6c1]

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/655/430/3e7/resized/troll-biden-meme-generator-troll-biden-9d7fab.jpg

[Tsk Tsk]

It screamed "I memorized this"

[diethx]

Yeah his closing statement made my skin crawl a bit.

[Atlanteax]

Overall assessment:

I give Biden the edge, he was able to 'win' on issues more frequently than Ryan ... and was successful in returning the topic to the plight of the middle class ... but I think Biden missed an opportunity to score even stronger had he been able to do so 'less douchey'.

[Gompers]

Overall assessment:

....

I think Biden missed an opportunity to score even stronger had he been able to do so 'less douchey'.

It's Joe Biden, a win is a win - I'm sure he's walking to his car asking one of his aides, "How many F-bombs did I just drop in there?"

[Showal]

It's obvious Ryan is losing on purpose. Or maybe it's the altitude.

It's a very risky strategy, but it's certainly on purpose.

[Back]

It's a very risky strategy, but it's certainly on purpose.

It would be a poor one since they only have one debate.

[4a6c1]

Lol wtf. What possible strategic value could it provide to the GOP campaign to lose a debate this close to the polls?

[TheEschaton]

I am pretty positive these guys are mocking the excuses people gave for Obama's performance in the first debate.

Just guessing, though.

[Tgo01]

Lol wtf. What possible strategic value could it provide to the GOP campaign to lose a debate this close to the polls?

Ryan let Biden appear to win so Romney can trounce Obama for the next two debates saving his coupe de grace for the last one.

It ultimately could turn out to be extremely effective.

[4a6c1]

I am pretty positive these guys are mocking the excuses people gave for Obama's performance in the first debate.

Just guessing, though.

Phew! I haven't heard anyone say Obama bombed it on purpose. Weird.

[Jarvan]

Only jokingly.

Best joke about the first debate I heard yet tho was...

"Obama was like a 90's tv sitcom writer, it's like he trolled old tv guides and phoned in the plot"

[Showal]

Lol wtf. What possible strategic value could it provide to the GOP campaign to lose a debate this close to the polls?

Here is your answer.


Knowing Obama as a shrewd politician I would not be surprised if he went with the risky tactic of letting Romney have the first debate on purpose. He is not usually so petulant. He is the guy who got Bin Ladin. He has the swag. So it is possible, and I admit extremely risky, that he actually let Mitt appear to win that debate so he can trounce him for the next two saving his coupe de grace for the last one.

Like I said it would be very risky if this were the case but ultimately could turn out to be extremely effective.

[4a6c1]

Ermagerd. That explains that.

[Back]

Ermagerd. That explains that.

I have floated the idea as a possibility and have repeatedly said it would be a risky strategy. The debate people are going to remember is the last one. The one closest to the election. I propose the first one does not mean as much as the last one. Obama lulls Romney into a false sense of security so that Romney gets overconfident and makes mistakes. In that first debate Romney's claims were all over the place compared to his previous statements. He became Etch-a-sketch Romney that he was in the republican candidate debates. He was completely inconsistent and not factual. As I have said before, on substance, Obama won that debate.

So now we have Biden taking Ryan to the mat and two more debates to go.

[Parkbandit]

I have floated the idea as a possibility and have repeatedly said it would be a risky strategy. The debate people are going to remember is the last one. The one closest to the election. I propose the first one does not mean as much as the last one. Obama lulls Romney into a false sense of security so that Romney gets overconfident and makes mistakes. In that first debate Romney's claims were all over the place compared to his previous statements. He became Etch-a-sketch Romney that he was in the republican candidate debates. He was completely inconsistent and not factual. As I have said before, on substance, Obama won that debate.

So now we have Biden taking Ryan to the mat and two more debates to go.

So, you believe Biden won?

I don't.

I think if Biden had been a bit more reserved and polite, he could have won it.. but he came across as an unhinged douchebag to the point that it was actually distracting. I was listening to him interrupt Ryan more than I was listening to Ryan's responses.

He was told to be aggressive and went overboard. I'm going to put it Ryan 55 - Biden 45.

[Atlanteax]

Suprising... CNN post-debate poll says 48% thinks Ryan won, 44% Biden.

[Jarvan]

It's the laughing, shit eating grins, and interrupting. People don't generally respond well to that.

[Parkbandit]

It's the laughing, shit eating grins, and interrupting. People don't generally respond well to that.

The Joker laugh did him in. He came across more insane than he usually does.

[Jarvan]

Is it me, or did his teeth also remind me of that freaky guy that does those late night infomercials?

[Taernath]

I think they both got some good hits on each other, but Biden's behavior was distracting and unprofessional, in my opinion. I wish Ryan or the moderator would have called him on it, particularly during the foreign policy section when potentially thousands of lives are at stake. There were a couple of times Ryan was asked point blank to name some specifics and he danced around it.

There was one particular claim I was meaning to look up but now I've forgotten it. Should've taken notes. :/

[Rallorick]

So, you believe Biden won?

I don't.

Holy shit... I did not see that coming.

[Jarvan]

I think they both got some good hits on each other, but Biden's behavior was distracting and unprofessional, in my opinion. I wish Ryan or the moderator would have called him on it, particularly during the foreign policy section when potentially thousands of lives are at stake. There were a couple of times Ryan was asked point blank to name some specifics and he danced around it.

There was one particular claim I was meaning to look up but now I've forgotten it. Should've taken notes. :/

I wasn't fully listening, truth to tell, but was Biden asked for any specifics at all? I know Ryan asked Biden what he would do to save medicare and SS. Not sure he got any specifics tho.

[Tgo01]

I think they both got some good hits on each other, but Biden's behavior was distracting and unprofessional, in my opinion. I wish Ryan or the moderator would have called him on it

A couple of times there the moderator interrupted Biden while he was in the middle of interrupting Ryan just to herself interrupt Ryan. I thought the moderator was supposed to have a handle on these things? She basically just let Biden do whatever he wanted.

[Back]

So, you believe Biden won?

I don't.

I think if Biden had been a bit more reserved and polite, he could have won it.. but he came across as an unhinged douchebag to the point that it was actually distracting. I was listening to him interrupt Ryan more than I was listening to Ryan's responses.

He was told to be aggressive and went overboard. I'm going to put it Ryan 55 - Biden 45.

Everything you are criticizing Biden about is everything that made you think Romney won the presidential debate.

Yes, I think Biden won, no question. Romney appeared to win the presidential debate but he was not factual.

Plus, what kind of strategy is going after Big Bird? Yeah. Big Bird is what we need to fix in this country.

[Androidpk]

Biden - 1
Ryan - 0

[Taernath]

I wasn't fully listening, truth to tell, but was Biden asked for any specifics at all? I know Ryan asked Biden what he would do to save medicare and SS. Not sure he got any specifics tho.

There's nothing that sticks out in my mind, but the dems aren't planning on changing things up for the second term, anyway.


A couple of times there the moderator interrupted Biden while he was in the middle of interrupting Ryan just to herself interrupt Ryan. I thought the moderator was supposed to have a handle on these things? She basically just let Biden do whatever he wanted.

She asked some pointed questions from both of them, and I thought she did well keeping things on subject and moving along; the other guy was just a doormat. The breakdown of the talk time was something like a minute in Biden's favor, IIRC.

[Tgo01]

I say that Obama did so badly that the badness carried over to this debate so Ryan won.

[Gompers]

Frankly I just can't believe more people aren't jumping on my Biden vs. Voight comment...


Biden is looking rather Jon Voight-ish lately.

http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/article_large/public/2011/08/19/148652-u-s-vice-president-joe-biden-in-china-on-a-five-day-charm-mission-has-.jpg

vs.

http://votingamerican.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/jon-voight2.jpg?w=500

[Jarvan]

There's nothing that sticks out in my mind, but the dems aren't planning on changing things up for the second term, anyway.



So what your saying is their plan to fix SS and Medicare is to do nothing, like they have done?
Or maybe they don't need specifics cause they are already in power. That makes even more sense.

[Androidpk]

Biden did give specifics on medicare, how they were able to cut out fraud, waste and abuse among other things, extending its lifeline to something like 2024.

[Jarvan]

Biden did give specifics on medicare, how they were able to cut out fraud, waste and abuse among other things, extending its lifeline to something like 2024.

You mean the money they then gave to Obamacare? How does that really save medicare money?

If you have $1000 monthly budget, and "save" $100 by not having cable from now on, but then use that $100 for your beer fund, your just trading cable for beer. Which is what they did.

More importantly, Medicare is not the Government's piggybank. ~If~ they found a way to save 716 billion in Medicare, then that should stay IN Medicare.

Lastly, that is not a plan to Save medicare. That's a plan to extend it's life briefly till they get re-elected and pass the buck to the next poor schmuck. Unless you figure we will all die on 12-21-12 and it won't matter, in which case, Yes. They saved Medicare.

Also, their saving takes into account that they will not continue to extend the payment cuts to DRs and hospitals. Like that will ever happen. Hence that money won't be cut anyway, and will then be spent 3 times.

[Rallorick]

So what your saying is their plan to fix SS and Medicare is to do nothing, like they have done?
Or maybe they don't need specifics cause they are already in power. That makes even more sense.

I'm trying to understand the level of sarcasm here... Your other posts seem to indicate you're a republican ticket supporter, and I just find it odd to hear the 'lack of specifics' bothers you all that much.

I mean the whole Romney/Ryan campaign has been built on lack of specifics, as far as I can tell.

[~Rocktar~]

Frankly I just can't believe more people aren't jumping on my Biden vs. Voight comment...



http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/article_large/public/2011/08/19/148652-u-s-vice-president-joe-biden-in-china-on-a-five-day-charm-mission-has-.jpg



vs.

http://votingamerican.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/jon-voight2.jpg?w=500

No fucking way dude, Voight is cool and you could believe he would push the button or send in troops, Biden, not so much.

[Androidpk]

I mean the whole Romney/Ryan campaign has been built on lack of specifics, as far as I can tell.

Does not matter to certain people. Romney and Ryan could say their plan to fix the economy would be to hold sermons led by Michele Bachmann to pray away the debt and they would all nod their heads and go along with it.

[Geijon Khyree]

No facts given and Ryan was evasive all night. He gave canned answers to everything. I like Obama. He's flawed like any human. It's also like having someone steal your identity and run up 50K in credit on the black card (Bush) then telling Obama to pay for it while having two young children to send to school and his parents moving into his house.

All I see is party line. You want to vote republican, you want to vote democrat, fine, but don't post here with any pretense beyond that. I flat out don't trust Romney and Ryan looks like he'll shank you to avoid trial. Biden atleast reminds me of an uncle and obama is a stoic, intelligent leader.

America is broken. Obama didn't break it. We gave Bush 8 years even when we didn't want him both times. We'll give Obama 8 because we do like him.

[Tgo01]

Does not matter to certain people.

ClydeR, is that you?

[Tgo01]

All I see is party line.

Boy you weren't kidding. Your whole house must be painted blue.

[Showal]

I have floated the idea as a possibility and have repeatedly said it would be a risky strategy. The debate people are going to remember is the last one. The one closest to the election. I propose the first one does not mean as much as the last one. Obama lulls Romney into a false sense of security so that Romney gets overconfident and makes mistakes. In that first debate Romney's claims were all over the place compared to his previous statements. He became Etch-a-sketch Romney that he was in the republican candidate debates. He was completely inconsistent and not factual. As I have said before, on substance, Obama won that debate.

So now we have Biden taking Ryan to the mat and two more debates to go.

You should run campaigns. You're quite the strategist.

[Androidpk]

I think Back may have been on to something with Obama losing on purpose. Unfortunately for Obama, Romney and team also realized this and had Ryan lose on purpose to negate that advantage. Obama is going to have to skip the next debate entirely to one up Romney and then come back swinging like a champ in the final debate.

[Tgo01]

I think Back may have been on to something with Obama losing on purpose. Unfortunately for Obama, Romney and team also realized this and had Ryan lose on purpose to negate that advantage. Obama is going to have to skip the next debate entirely to one up Romney and then come back swinging like a champ in the final debate.

That all sounds pretty risky but could ultimately be extremely effective.

[Rallorick]

this political strategy brought to you by the Chinese Olympic women's volleyball team...

[Showal]

I think Back may have been on to something with Obama losing on purpose. Unfortunately for Obama, Romney and team also realized this and had Ryan lose on purpose to negate that advantage. Obama is going to have to skip the next debate entirely to one up Romney and then come back swinging like a champ in the final debate.

You're right. I can feel it down in my plums.

[Warriorbird]

You're right. I can feel it down in my plums.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkADj0TPrJA

[Parkbandit]

Everything you are criticizing Biden about is everything that made you think Romney won the presidential debate.

Wait.. I said Romney was acting like an unhinged douchebag and that's why he won the debate?


Yes, I think Biden won, no question. Romney appeared to win the presidential debate but he was not factual.

Biden won and Romney appeared to win? Obama got his ass handed to him.. it wasn't even close by any measure. You could argue that the VP debate was a tie maybe or even that Biden won.. but "no question" is not even remotely accurate. Both candidates did what they had to do.. Biden had to stop the bleeding and to gen up support from his nut base. From your responses in this thread.. he got his nut base support back.


Plus, what kind of strategy is going after Big Bird? Yeah. Big Bird is what we need to fix in this country.

What? If that was all you got out of the Presidential Debate?

You are such a simpleton.

[Parkbandit]

I'm trying to understand the level of sarcasm here... Your other posts seem to indicate you're a republican ticket supporter, and I just find it odd to hear the 'lack of specifics' bothers you all that much.

I mean the whole Romney/Ryan campaign has been built on lack of specifics, as far as I can tell.

Says the guy who supported and still supports "Hope and Change".

If there is one thing you shouldn't complain about is the lack of specifics... Obama is the founding father of that movement.

[Jarvan]

I'm trying to understand the level of sarcasm here... Your other posts seem to indicate you're a republican ticket supporter, and I just find it odd to hear the 'lack of specifics' bothers you all that much.

I mean the whole Romney/Ryan campaign has been built on lack of specifics, as far as I can tell.

Lack of specifics doesn't really bother me at all. I want to know generally what a person will do. After all, unless the president is just going to sign executive orders all day, nothing he himself says can be done without congress/senate.

Lets look at Obama a moment for just a few examples.

Close Gitmo
Fix immigration
Cut Deficit in half

First one, the President can't do on his own. and even HIS democratic held Congress/Senate didn't want to close Gitmo. Which makes that specific of his in 2008 rather stupid. Immigration, same deal. Deficit, well, I think he meant to say double it, not cut in half.

So lets look at specifics again, all they do really is get you in trouble. If you have an ideal of something you want to do. Say cut taxes, and close loopholes. Giving specific loopholes to cut would just cause problems if the senate/congress decided not to cut them. You generally have to work with other people you know. Besides which, you want one side to give specifics, then give a pas on the other side? What kind of bullshit is that, they play by the same rules I say.

[Some Rogue]

All I see is party line. You want to vote republican, you want to vote democrat, fine, but don't post here with any pretense beyond that.


Welcome to any political thread on this forum ever. Going in, you already know how most people are going to respond and then it just goes into pages of arguing with no one ever convincing the other side of anything.

[Atlanteax]

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t1#/video/politics/2012/10/12/orig-jtb-distraction-biden-smiles.cnn

CNN apparently predicts SNL & John Stewart will be mocking Biden along these lines...

[Carl Spackler]

Biden atleast reminds me of an uncle and obama is a stoic, intelligent leader.



http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/files/2012/10/Biden-laughing-Veep-debate.jpeg

[Lulfas]

Says the guy who supported and still supports "Hope and Change".

If there is one thing you shouldn't complain about is the lack of specifics... Obama is the founding father of that movement.

So you're saying your argument is "I know you are but what am I?"

[Wrathbringer]

Biden owned Ryan last night, imo. Biden did a better job of refuting arguments and seemed more "in the know", while Ryan came off as having only well rehearsed surface knowledge on each topic. Ryan also at times visually resembled a muppet and that was somewhat distracting. It's the eyebrows, I think. But on a serious note, t's a shame Judge Jim Gray wasn't allowed to participate. Biden may have had a tougher time with him, and I know Ryan would have.

[Jarvan]

I honestly think Biden won on points, taking it to Ryan. But I think his laughing, grinning, smirking, basically calling him a liar, those play against him, ultimately, I bet the polls of Americans show Biden lost due to this.

[Tgo01]

I honestly think Biden won on points, taking it to Ryan. But I think his laughing, grinning, smirking, basically calling him a liar, those play against him, ultimately, I bet the polls of Americans show Biden lost due to this.

CNN poll has Ryan (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/12/vice-presidential-debate-polls-results_n_1960147.html?ref=topbar) as the winner with 48% to 44%. Ryan also won in the "likable" category by 53% to 43%, so yes I'd have to say the way he acted probably played against him.

To be fair though CBS has Biden as the winner, 50% Biden, 31% Ryan and 19% a tie.

But we don't take CBS seriously at the PC so obviously Ryan won.

[Parkbandit]

So you're saying your argument is "I know you are but what am I?"

No. I'm saying he is a raging hypocrite for being a staunch Obama supporter and demanding specifics from anyone else.

I thought that was pretty easy to understand.. yet, here we are.

[Androidpk]

Most of the polls are giving it to Biden, some by a large margin.

[Fallen]

CNN poll has Ryan (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/12/vice-presidential-debate-polls-results_n_1960147.html?ref=topbar) as the winner with 48% to 44%. Ryan also won in the "likable" category by 53% to 43%, so yes I'd have to say the way he acted probably played against him.


That CNN poll had a 5% margin of error. Ryan definitely won the "likability" vote, though.

[Androidpk]

How exactly was Ryan likeable? I wanted to slap that smarmy looking grin off his face the entire time. I too would have liked to seen Judge Gray there but I'm sure most people watching would have been like who the hell is that?

[crb]

I'd call it a draw. Ryan had the facts (he should have pushed Biden on a few of the things "O rly Joe? So someone from your state department just perjured themselves before congress earlier today?"). But Biden blustered enough that people who aren't well informed will think he also did well. Near as I can tell people on the right thought Ryan won, people on the left thought Biden did, so draw. Biden may have been giving anything accurately, I think he even got Obama's position on taxes wrong (Biden kept saying $1m or more, not $250k which is the official campaign stance), but when your audience doesn't know the facts, if you seem confident in them, that appearance is what counts.

[Jarvan]

Facts really don't matter in politics, since you can always spin them to your benefit anyway.

[crb]

I thought Ryan handled the abortion question as well as he could, but Biden is easily winning the argument with "not his place to tell people what to do with their bodies".



Slam dunk on Biden's response to the abortion question. Not the government's decision.

Ya, I mean, who is the government to say you cannot terminate the life of another human using your body. If I sever your spinal cord with a pair of surgical scissors I'm just using my own body right?

People will probably always disagree on abortion, it would be incorrect to assume that giving women the freedom to kill their own children regardless of the scientific facts of fetal development will be winning the argument. Last I checked the voting public is pro life by a very slim majority.

Believe it or not, most people out there believe the government does have every right to stop you from murdering someone else, and that that protection includes babies who simply have committed the crime of being in utero.

The abortion issue is not about a woman's right to choose, she chose to have sex, chose not to use birth control, chose not to use the morning after pill, and then chose not to get a prompt abortion (or was too stupid to realize she was pregnant after having unprotected sex). In the case of rape she chose not to report it, not to go to the hospital, and not get the standard issue pills.

The abortion issue is about a baby's right to life. There is no scientific basis for saying human life begins when you pass through the birth canal. That'd be like saying life ends when you go underground, and spelunkers die and come back to life every weekend. You have brain activity long before you leave the uterus, and in fact we're all the same species but some of us have left the uterus at different stages of development.

I also don't happen to think life begins at conception, there is no brain in a fertilized egg, that isn't science either, a scientific answer would be somewhere in the middle, and then maybe we err on the side of caution by a couple weeks just to be sure, we err on the side of caution in death penalty cases after all.

But no one has the right to murder an innocent baby just because it is an inconvenience to them.

[ClydeR]

Did Paul Ryan, when discussing abortion during the debate, steal a story from Kurt Cobain?


Pertinent part of the article I linked: Kurt Cobain named his daughter after Frances McKee, the guitarist for The Vaselines, and gave her the middle named Bean because he thought she resembled a kidney bean on the ultrasound.

The pertinent quote from the debate from Paul Ryan: You know, I think about 10 1/2 years ago, my wife Janna and I went to Mercy Hospital in Janesville where I was born for our seven-week ultrasound for our firstborn child, and we saw that heartbeat. Our little baby was in the shape of a bean, and to this day, we have nicknamed our firstborn child, Liza, “Bean.” (Chuckles.)

More... (http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/11co0y/paul_ryan_gives_the_story_of_how_his_daughter_got/)

[Drew]

Biden gave the type of performance that partisans love. They just want to smirk and roll their eyes at their opponents ridiculous ideas. The problem with these Biden type performances is that it's been shown over and over that independents and moderates do not like that type of performance and prefer a respectful debater. See: Al Gore sighing 2000. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter who most people think won because these debates are calculated to appeal to a narrow 10% of the electorate and not to either party. So what Rocktar or Backlash thinks of it actually has no bearing, in fact the kind of people who would spend time debating who won a political debate are exactly the kind of people that don't matter. First past the pole Democracy everyone!

[4a6c1]

Biden gave the type of performance that partisans love. They just want to smirk and roll their eyes at their opponents ridiculous ideas. The problem with these Biden type performances is that it's been shown over and over that independents and moderates do not like that type of performance and prefer a respectful debater. See: Al Gore sighing 2000. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter who most people think won because these debates are calculated to appeal to a narrow 10% of the electorate and not to either party. So what Rocktar or Backlash thinks of it actually has no bearing, in fact the kind of people who would spend time debating who won a political debate are exactly the kind of people that don't matter. First past the pole Democracy everyone!

Well said. This is an excellent point.

[Tgo01]

In the case of rape she chose not to report it, not to go to the hospital, and not get the standard issue pills.

You're crazy dude.

[crb]

The morality of abortion is irrelevant from a public policy perspective. I personally think it's wrong in most cases. But do you think a law is going to stop people from doing it? No, it never did, and it doesn't even stop conservatives. Nor does it stop religious people. It makes them do it in secret, it makes them hypocrites. See the scandal du jour, Scott DesJarlais, pro-life MD tea-party congressman from Tennessee, that pressured his girlfriend to get an abortion to save his own marriage.

Pragmatically, there's also a strong case to be made that legalizing abortion nationwide is what we have to thank for the trend of violent crime lowering significantly over the past 30 years.

By that logic, we should also make murder legal, because people do it anyways?

I used to be pro choice, for exactly this reason, it was a public health issue, people would do it anyways, etc. Then I became a father, and had reason to be a NICU, and I saw premies, tiny little things, that would have been legal to kill had they been in a uterus still. It made me sick.

We can argue about when life begins, and I would take a scientific standpoint on that based on the biology of fetal development. But I think that every nonsociopathic human out there can agree that murder is wrong, and there should be laws against it.

[crb]

You're crazy dude.

What, you don't think rape victims are offered the morning after pill when they visit an ER? What is so crazy about that notion? Obviously, rape victims don't want to be pregnant, and should be given emergency contraception.

[crb]

Biden gave the type of performance that partisans love. They just want to smirk and roll their eyes at their opponents ridiculous ideas. The problem with these Biden type performances is that it's been shown over and over that independents and moderates do not like that type of performance and prefer a respectful debater. See: Al Gore sighing 2000. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter who most people think won because these debates are calculated to appeal to a narrow 10% of the electorate and not to either party. So what Rocktar or Backlash thinks of it actually has no bearing, in fact the kind of people who would spend time debating who won a political debate are exactly the kind of people that don't matter. First past the pole Democracy everyone!

Yup, pretty much.

[Bobmuhthol]

You're out of your fucking mind if you think you saw a living human who could have legally been aborted.

[Tgo01]

What, you don't think rape victims are offered the morning after pill when they visit an ER? What is so crazy about that notion? Obviously, rape victims don't want to be pregnant, and should be given emergency contraception.

No I think you're crazy for blaming a rape victim for not getting "prompt" medical attention in the form of the morning after pill. I think people who are raped have a million things going through their mind for the next several weeks/months/years so I think we can go ahead and forgive them for not rushing to the hospital less than a week after being raped.

[Latrinsorm]

I think Back may have been on to something with Obama losing on purpose. Unfortunately for Obama, Romney and team also realized this and had Ryan lose on purpose to negate that advantage. Obama is going to have to skip the next debate entirely to one up Romney and then come back swinging like a champ in the final debate.like

[Merala]

In the case of rape she chose not to report it, not to go to the hospital, and not get the standard issue pills.

CRB, I'm going to assume you've never been raped just for the sake of this discussion. As a person who's never been raped, and quite possibly hasn't known someone who has gotten raped, I might not expect you to know this.

Women who are victims of sexual assault go through an extremely mortifying and terrifying exam. I know that a lot of people just think they get handed a morning after pill and maybe a swab here and there, but that is not the case at all.

After one of the most horrifying experiences of her life, a rape victims arrives at the hospital. She is immediately taken into an exam room where a paper sheet is laid across the floor, and she is asked to strip off all of her clothing. The paper sheet is there to catch anything that may have fallen off of her body, or clothing. Her nails are scraped to try to get any skin cells or other DNA evidence from her attacker. Next, the woman has any lacerations, contusions or other marks photographed, up to an up close photograph of some of her most intimate parts which had just been violated. She is then given a hospital gown, and given an in depth examination in which a doctor checks over her entire vulva. Any pubic hairs with debris or dried fluids in them are removed. Mind you they are plucked, and not cut. Then a comb is run through her pubic hair in order to catch any non-visible debris or foreign hairs. Then an in depth exam of her genitals themselves, scraping, swabbing, examining poking and prodding, trying to find any damage, or any evidence that can be used in criminal proceedings. This entire experience that this woman is going through is exacerbated by the fact that during this entire process, this doctor is narrating his/her findings to another person in the room taking notes on what he/she finds, often in terms she (the woman) might not even understand.

To say it's a woman's fault for not wanting to go through something as horrifying and traumatic as that AFTER being raped, is frankly bullshit on your part. I'm going to assume you knew none of this upon your post, but hopefully will be enlightened by the information presented.

That said, I can't imagine any circumstances (aside from rape) in which I would get an abortion, however I support a woman's right to choose. That is between her and God, her and her doctor, her and whoever, but it's not between her and I.

[Parkbandit]

You're out of your fucking mind if you think you saw a living human who could have legally been aborted.

In the state of Florida, you can get a legal abortion up to 24 weeks into the pregnancy. 24 weeks is also the starting point of the best chances for a premature birth to survive, but there are plenty of examples of premies surviving with as little as 21 weeks.

Not really out of his fucking mind.

[Parkbandit]

If you actually want to reduce the number of abortions, the best way to go about it is to educate young people with all the facts. Comprehensive sex education. Free condoms.

Outlawing abortion doesn't stop abortions from happening--it forces it underground. Moving back to the hypocritical, pseudo-puritanical lives the church forced people to live in past centuries isn't the answer if you want to save the babies Pro-Lifers claim to care about.

Reason #9474 that organized religion is a negative influence on humanity.

Outlawing abortions would greatly reduce the number of abortions performed each year.

[Tenlaar]

And bonus, more unwanted babies!!

[Bobmuhthol]

In the state of Florida, you can get a legal abortion up to 24 weeks into the pregnancy. 24 weeks is also the starting point of the best chances for a premature birth to survive, but there are plenty of examples of premies surviving with as little as 21 weeks.

Not really out of his fucking mind.He's in a state that uses viability as a cutoff, not time.

[Parkbandit]

He's in a state that uses viability as a cutoff, not time.

So, you were saying that crb, in the state of MI is out of his mind.. but if crb were to say visit a hospital in Ohio, which is 2 hours away from Lansing, then he wouldn't be out of his mind?

[Bobmuhthol]

Ohio also uses viability.

[Parkbandit]

But you now understand that it is possible for someone to view a premature baby that could have been legally aborted, right?

[Kembal]

Biden gave the type of performance that partisans love. They just want to smirk and roll their eyes at their opponents ridiculous ideas. The problem with these Biden type performances is that it's been shown over and over that independents and moderates do not like that type of performance and prefer a respectful debater. See: Al Gore sighing 2000. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter who most people think won because these debates are calculated to appeal to a narrow 10% of the electorate and not to either party. So what Rocktar or Backlash thinks of it actually has no bearing, in fact the kind of people who would spend time debating who won a political debate are exactly the kind of people that don't matter. First past the pole Democracy everyone!

Actually, I don't think the VP debate matters one iota in convincing independents or undecided voters. All people care about with the VP selection is whether the Presidential candidate picked a good person to replace them if something happens to them, and they use the VP debate to judge their competence. (This is how Palin wound up hurting McCain in 2008...that, plus the interview with Katie Couric) Ryan passed that test, and so did Biden.

Biden needed to fire up Democratic partisans again after Obama's loss in the first debate. His performance did that. If Obama wants to stop Romney's momentum though, he's gotta do it himself in the next two debates.

[Tgo01]

Outlawing abortion doesn't stop abortions from happening--it forces it underground.

I'm not sure I buy that argument as a valid reason for keeping abortions legal. That's like saying we can't stop parents from abusing their children with laws so why even make it a crime? We can't stop people from practicing medicine without a license so why make it harder for people to practice medicine with a license? Making shoplifting a crime doesn't stop shoplifting so why criminalize it?


And bonus, more unwanted babies!!

I don't understand this argument from pro choicers either. It's like they demonize the babies to make them some how look like the bad guy so it's okay to abort them.

Call the babies unwanted, refer to them as "parasites" while they're in the womb.

[Showal]

Actually, I don't think the VP debate matters one iota in convincing independents or undecided voters. All people care about with the VP selection is whether the Presidential candidate picked a good person to replace them if something happens to them, and they use the VP debate to judge their competence. (This is how Palin wound up hurting McCain in 2008...that, plus the interview with Katie Couric) Ryan passed that test, and so did Biden.

Biden needed to fire up Democratic partisans again after Obama's loss in the first debate. His performance did that. If Obama wants to stop Romney's momentum though, he's gotta do it himself in the next two debates.

There was a gallup poll showing that the VP debate has never shown a statistically significant impact on voters. I posted it very early in this thread

[Back]

Joe Biden's teeth are so white even they are voting for Romney.

[Showal]

Joe Biden's teeth are so white even they are voting for Romney.

They're voting for Romney to show dissonance in the party. They'll reveal their true opinions just after the third presidential debate. Its a risky strategy but it could be extremely effective.

[Tgo01]

Joe Biden's teeth are so white even they are voting for Romney.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcYppAs6ZdI

[Back]

They're voting for Romney to show dissonance in the party. They'll reveal their true opinions just after the third presidential debate. Its a risky strategy but it could be extremely effective.

You need some new material.

[Showal]

You need some new material.

No. That's pretty good

[Tenlaar]

I don't understand this argument from pro choicers either. It's like they demonize the babies to make them some how look like the bad guy so it's okay to abort them.

Call the babies unwanted, refer to them as "parasites" while they're in the womb.

I don't demonize babies or think they're bad guys. I do think that world is already has an unsustainable amount of people on it and I'm fine with less being born. Also, a fetus fits the description of a parasite perfectly.

As for calling unwanted babies unwanted, how else should I phrase it? Do you honestly think that abortion being illegal does not result in people being forced into having babies that they don't want?

[Tgo01]

I don't demonize babies...a fetus fits the description of a parasite perfectly.

The purpose of this type of rhetoric seems to be to inflame the opposition. Knowing pro lifers' position is all life is precious and blah blah blah you seek to attack the very unborn person that pro lifers are trying to protect. Just seems like a childish argument to me that has very little to do with the actual topic.


As for calling unwanted babies unwanted, how else should I phrase it?

I think saying women get abortions because they don't "want" the baby is a very narrow way of looking at things. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16150658)


The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman's education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby now (73%); and that she did not want to be a single mother or was having relationship problems (48%). Nearly four in 10 women said they had completed their childbearing, and almost one-third were not ready to have a child. Fewer than 1% said their parents' or partners' desire for them to have an abortion was the most important reason. Younger women often reported that they were unprepared for the transition to motherhood, while older women regularly cited their responsibility to dependents.

Sure you could look at any of these reasons (other than the parents/partners bit) and say "the woman just doesn't want the child" but in reality most of the reasons cited have very little to do with "wanting" the child. Referring to them as "unwanted babies" is yet another inflammatory tactic.

[TheEschaton]

Oh yay, another abortion debate. You all are fucking retards. End debate.

[Tgo01]

Oh yay, another abortion debate. You all are fucking retards. End debate.

We could discuss anarchy again if you want, that's always a good source of entertainment.

[Tenlaar]

I didn't bring up the parasite thing, you did. But if you want to talk about it, I don't see any logical way in which a fetus is not "an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense." It's only rhetoric to people who think that a fetus is something more than a growth. I don't count it as a person until it is out of the womb.


Sure you could look at any of these reasons (other than the parents/partners bit) and say "the woman just doesn't want the child" but in reality most of the reasons cited have very little to do with "wanting" the child. Referring to them as "unwanted babies" is yet another inflammatory tactic.

It doesn't matter why a woman doesn't want the baby. Having reasons for not wanting to have a baby does not equal really wanting to have a baby. But hey, you can try to rationalize how babies that women don't want aren't unwanted babies all day long.

[Tenlaar]

Oh yay, another abortion debate. You all are fucking retards. End debate.

If somebody broke into your house and wanted to give you an illegal abortion, how would you talk them out of it!?

[Jarvan]

I didn't bring up the parasite thing, you did. But if you want to talk about it, I don't see any logical way in which a fetus is not "an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense." It's only rhetoric to people who think that a fetus is something more than a growth. I don't count it as a person until it is out of the womb.



It doesn't matter why a woman doesn't want the baby. Having reasons for not wanting to have a baby does not equal really wanting to have a baby. But hey, you can try to rationalize how babies that women don't want aren't unwanted babies all day long.

So it would be perfectly ok to abort fetuses at say.. 30 weeks? 35 weeks? The week before the baby is due? Since it's not a person it doesn't matter right?

[msconstrew]

So it would be perfectly ok to abort fetuses at say.. 30 weeks? 35 weeks? The week before the baby is due? Since it's not a person it doesn't matter right?

Yes. Because a woman's right to bodily autonomy trumps everything.

[Jarvan]

Yes. Because a woman's right to bodily autonomy trumps everything.

I knew you were an idiot. Just never realized how much of one.

Wait.. let me guess.. you also have the power and authority to decide this for us as well, right?

BTW.. as an extremely well educated woman, I am sure you realize there are lots of ways to prevent pregnancy in the first place, or maybe decide to do the deed early enough. Then again, maybe you are the kind of person that 1 week before due date you get pissed that your back hurts and decide to end it's life cause it's a pain.

Wait... you don't have kids. I forgot. Which is a good thing actually.

[Showal]

I knew you were an idiot. Just never realized how much of one.

Wait.. let me guess.. you also have the power and authority to decide this for us as well, right?

BTW.. as an extremely well educated woman, I am sure you realize there are lots of ways to prevent pregnancy in the first place, or maybe decide to do the deed early enough. Then again, maybe you are the kind of person that 1 week before due date you get pissed that your back hurts and decide to end it's life cause it's a pain.

Wait... you don't have kids. I forgot. Which is a good thing actually.

Can you add clarity to this? Once again, you're making absolutely no sense. Have you considered maybe keeping a very very personal diary?

[Jarvan]

Can you add clarity to this? Once again, you're making absolutely no sense. Have you considered maybe keeping a very very personal diary?

Well, in another thread. We were discussing where a cheerleader could put a religious phrase on a paper banner a football team ran through.

I believe it was TGoO1 or what not that said it is all immaterial cause none of us are in a position or have the power to make the determination.

msconstrew pointed out that yes, she was able to. Thereby stating she had the power and position to make that kind of determination..... as a corporate lawyer. Apparently corporate lawyers get to decide what is legal or right under the law. Who knew.

[Showal]

Well, in another thread. We were discussing where a cheerleader could put a religious phrase on a paper banner a football team ran through.

I believe it was TGoO1 or what not that said it is all immaterial cause none of us are in a position or have the power to make the determination.

msconstrew pointed out that yes, she was able to. Thereby stating she had the power and position to make that kind of determination..... as a corporate lawyer. Apparently corporate lawyers get to decide what is legal or right under the law. Who knew.

If you remember, I was a part of that conversation. I can already assume you don't really remember because your recollection has some pretty big holes in it.

[msconstrew]

I knew you were an idiot. Just never realized how much of one.

Wait.. let me guess.. you also have the power and authority to decide this for us as well, right?

BTW.. as an extremely well educated woman, I am sure you realize there are lots of ways to prevent pregnancy in the first place, or maybe decide to do the deed early enough. Then again, maybe you are the kind of person that 1 week before due date you get pissed that your back hurts and decide to end it's life cause it's a pain.

Wait... you don't have kids. I forgot. Which is a good thing actually.

LOL.

So, in short, this response uses ad hominem attacks, does not address the constitutional right to bodily autonomy, does not address the right to make medical choices without governmental interference, and assumes that I would support terminating a pregnancy because my back hurts. It also throws out that old straw man that the woman should "take responsibility to prevent pregnancy", which conveniently ignores the fact that birth control can and does fail, as well as ignoring the fact that not everyone is able to access methods of birth control, and the fact that not everyone knows how to properly use it. Way to go.

[msconstrew]

msconstrew pointed out that yes, she was able to. Thereby stating she had the power and position to make that kind of determination..... as a corporate lawyer. Apparently corporate lawyers get to decide what is legal or right under the law. Who knew.

I actually did not say this. But here: I am not a judge. I can't decide things. I have no power. I am just way, way better educated about the law than either you or Tg0.

[Tenlaar]

So it would be perfectly ok to abort fetuses at say.. 30 weeks? 35 weeks? The week before the baby is due? Since it's not a person it doesn't matter right?

Perfectly ok to me. A fetus shouldn't get a vote in anything a woman wants to do with her body, even a day before the due date.

[Tgo01]

I am just way, way better educated about the law than either you or Tg0.


taking the position that a college you've never attended and probably know nothing about is "equivalent to a community college" in order to dismiss the opinions of someone who attended that college. That doesn't make you an "elitist"; it makes you palpably arrogant and ignorant.


Doesn't matter because my criticisms were not of Bob's actual points, but ... that he ... implied that the school you attend somehow impact the validity of your opinions.

Hmm. Imagine that.

[TheEschaton]

Law school imparts a certain expertise in the law. If we were discussing welding and someone was like "well, I went to welding school," you can't discount that. An undergrad education in poly sci is largely nothing in the spectrum of "breadth of knowledge in political science," which is why I can see where Bob's comment came from...but it doesn't dismiss constrew's valid criticism that he said it in a rather douchey way.

[msconstrew]

Hmm. Imagine that.

Imagine that. Imagine that I am referring not only to having attended law school, but also to having practiced law in the relevant area since 2004. So even if you weren't deliberately misconstruing my comments from that other thread, my statement about knowing more about the law than you is still correct.

[diethx]

Did you get a law degree and pass the bar exam, Tgo?

[Tgo01]

Law school imparts a certain expertise in the law. If we were discussing welding and someone was like "well, I went to welding school," you can't discount that. An undergrad education in poly sci is largely nothing in the spectrum of "breadth of knowledge in political science," which is why I can see where Bob's comment came from...but it doesn't dismiss constrew's valid criticism that he said it in a rather douchey way.

It's just funny she gives Bob shit for basically saying he has more education than someone else and making it appear that because of his superior education that the other person's opinion is invalid and here she is implying Jarvan's and my opinions (which I don't even know why I was dragged into this particular debate) mean shit when it comes to a law debate because we don't have as much education as her.

Why do we even discuss things around here then? Whenever it comes to a discussion about a law we'll just let you (TheE) and msconstrew duke it out. When it comes to the economy we'll let Bob have the floor.


Imagine that. Imagine that I am referring not only to having attended law school, but also to having practiced law in the relevant area since 2004. So even if you weren't deliberately misconstruing my comments from that other thread, my statement about knowing more about the law than you is still correct.

I wasn't misconstruing anything from that other thread. You are implying your opinion means more than Jarvan's or mine because you attended law school and have been practicing law. You admonished Bob for doing the same thing about his education.


Did you get a law degree and pass the bar exam, Tgo?

Irrelevant.

[msconstrew]

I wasn't misconstruing anything from that other thread. You are implying your opinion means more than Jarvan's or mine because you attended law school and have been practicing law. You admonished Bob for doing the same thing about his education.

Actually I admonished Bob for being a douchebag. I do actually believe that education better informs one's ability to understand and analyze an issue. Maybe you didn't deliberately misconstrue it; maybe you simply didn't get it.

[4a6c1]

Hmm. Imagine that.

This reads somewhat juvenile. Almost envious. It makes me wonder what sort of education you have.

[diethx]

So, no. Ok.

[Tgo01]

Maybe you didn't deliberately misconstrue it; maybe you simply didn't get it.


This reads somewhat juvenile. Almost envious. It makes me wonder what sort of education you have.

That's it, I must be stupid and jealous.

[Jarvan]

LOL.

So, in short, this response uses ad hominem attacks, does not address the constitutional right to bodily autonomy, does not address the right to make medical choices without governmental interference, and assumes that I would support terminating a pregnancy because my back hurts. It also throws out that old straw man that the woman should "take responsibility to prevent pregnancy", which conveniently ignores the fact that birth control can and does fail, as well as ignoring the fact that not everyone is able to access methods of birth control, and the fact that not everyone knows how to properly use it. Way to go.

So by constitutional right to bodily autonomy, I guess it would be ok to kill oneself, since it's one's own body?

[diethx]

Yes.

[msconstrew]

So by constitutional right to bodily autonomy, I guess it would be ok to kill oneself, since it's one's own body?

Yes. Just like I think we should be able to make the decision to have an assisted suicide because it involves bodily autonomy and the right to make our own healthcare decisions.

[Back]

So by constitutional right to bodily autonomy, I guess it would be ok to kill oneself, since it's one's own body?

Dude. Who are you going to arrest?

[Jarvan]

My bad, it was supressed Poet... but here is her line...



Maybe you're not. I do it on a regular basis, including analysis of First Amendment issues involving schools. Shocking, I know, that someone might not just be discussing their "opinions" and, instead, discussing something with which they have personal and professional experience. Moving on ...



I assume by "federal government" you mean "judiciary". And that is exactly the judiciary's function: to interpret and determine whether someone's actions are legal, constitutional, whatever. So for you to take the position that it is a waste of the judiciary's time to interpret this situation and render judgment on it is just plain ignorant of its very function. What else is it there for? To determine the outcome of monetary disputes? Excuse me if I find those much more insignificant than our constitutional rights.

In response to this..

Suppressed Poet
Of course, ultimately whatever we debate about here matters not because we are not the ones in power to interpret the law.

Now, I am sure her Law degree helps her interpret law in general. But a corporate lawyer having the power to interpret constitutional law in regards to religion? Remember.. Corporate Lawyer.. and she..
"Maybe you're not. I do it on a regular basis, including analysis of First Amendment issues involving schools. Shocking, I know, that someone might not just be discussing their "opinions" and, instead, discussing something with which they have personal and professional experience."

How many corporate lawyers deal with first amendment issues for schools on a regular basis? Which are you, a constitutional lawyer, or a corporate lawyer? Also, funny thing here.. it's still just an opinion. Just because your a lawyer, doesn't make what you believe anymore correct then me or someone else. Hard to grasp, I know. Oddly, 2 Judges also disagreed with you, making your "opinion" so far wrong.

So, just cause your a lawyer, also doesn't make your "opinion" on abortion correct either. Once again, it's just your opinion. Get appointed to the supreme court (not only doubtful, but impossible I would say) then your opinion would hold more weight.

[Jarvan]

Dude. Who are you going to arrest?

Well, attempting to commit suicide is a crime. If you fail to finish the deed, you can be held legally responsible. Not to mention generally get locked up in an institution.

[msconstrew]

I am not a corporate lawyer. I work in litigation. I represent and defend schools on these issues in both federal and state court. I have litigated constitutional first amendment issues in appellate courts, too. So yeah, I have relevant experience.

Also, we don't elect people to the US Supreme Court.

[Tgo01]

My bad, it was supressed Poet... but here is her line...

So bringing my education into this discussion was a pretty douchey move I'd say.

[diethx]

I read until I saw "your a lawyer", then I remembered I shouldn't be reading your posts.

[Jarvan]

Yes. Just like I think we should be able to make the decision to have an assisted suicide because it involves bodily autonomy and the right to make our own healthcare decisions.

Well.. Obama doesn't want you to have the right to make your own healthcare decisions.. you know.. it almost sounds like your a Conservative. Since you want personal freedoms. Odd.

On a side note, you know you sound more and more insane right?

Anyone else here think it's ok to abort the day before a woman is due? Or ok for assisted suicides? Just cause it's their own body?

[Jarvan]

I am not a corporate lawyer. I work in litigation. I represent and defend schools on these issues in both federal and state court. I have litigated constitutional first amendment issues in appellate courts, too. So yeah, I have relevant experience.

Do I need to find the post where you claimed to be a corporate lawyer? Ok.

[Androidpk]

How much wait can msconstrew's opinion hold???

[Tgo01]

How much wait can msconstrew's opinion hold???

Wait for it...

[diethx]

Or ok for assisted suicides?

Yes.

[TheEschaton]

I don't know why I bother reading this subfolder any more. Jesus.

[Tgo01]

I don't know why I bother reading this subfolder any more. Jesus.

Because you love us. Admit it.

[diethx]

I don't know why I bother reading this subfolder any more. Jesus.

Yeah, I think I agree with you there buddy.

[msconstrew]

Do I need to find the post where you claimed to be a corporate lawyer? Ok.

Dude. I work for a corporation. That does not make me a corporate lawyer. There are lawyers that work for corporations and do NOTHING but litigation. Corporate lawyers do mergers and acquisitions (among other things, none of which I do); that is not what I do. I don't think I've ever claimed to be a corporate lawyer, though it is correct to say that I work for a corporation. In fact, even if I still worked for a firm, I could say I work for a corporation.

[Jarvan]

And the fact that you interpreted my statement in that manner proves the point that you are not only illiterate, but also have terrible reading comprehension.

You want to know about me? 1520 on the SAT, full merit/academic scholarship to college, double major, graduated with honors, law school, graduated with honors, two appellate clerkships, five years in litigation, legal research and writing instructor at a top 25 law school, and now general counsel of a company. Married, no kids, two cats, lots of friends, excellent cook, and zero tolerance for dogmatic, ignorant republicans who don't know the difference between, for example, "your" and "you're".


So General Counsel of a company is not a Corporate lawyer?

[Jarvan]

So bringing my education into this discussion was a pretty douchey move I'd say.


Umm.. I didn't bring your education into anything. I have no idea what it is. I forgot who it was and thought it was you she had been replying to.

[Tgo01]

Umm.. I didn't bring your education into anything. I have no idea what it is. I forgot who it was and thought it was you she had been replying to.

That post wasn't directed at you.

[Androidpk]

Dude. I work for a corporation. That does not make me a corporate lawyer. There are lawyers that work for corporations and do NOTHING but litigation. Corporate lawyers do murders and executions (among other things, none of which I do); that is not what I do. I don't think I've ever claimed to be a corporate lawyer, though it is correct to say that I work for a corporation. In fact, even if I still worked for a firm, I could say I work for a corporation.

Fixed your typos ;)

[Back]

So bringing my education into this discussion was a pretty douchey move I'd say.

Oh shit! The PC being douchy? Hey guys stop picking on poor Tgo01. He is not equipped with the education needed to fend off trolls like the ones found here on the PC. Insensitive bastards.

[msconstrew]

So General Counsel of a company is not a Corporate lawyer?

It could be, but in this case it's not. I may assume some of those duties at some point, but we have an outside firm do our corporate work. I manage litigation against the company.

[msconstrew]

Fixed your typos ;)

LOL, thank you, Mr. Bateman. Did you remember to return your videotapes?

[Androidpk]

Going to do that right now, just have to find my walkman first.

[Jarvan]

It could be, but in this case it's not. I may assume some of those duties at some point, but we have an outside firm do our corporate work. I manage litigation against the company.

So how often does your company deal with first amendment rights in a public school? Is your company the school? Little confused here how you deal with these types of things on a regular basis when you manage litigation work against the company you work for.

[diethx]

You said you didn't care about specifics, only broad generalizations about what people do/plan to do.

[msconstrew]

So how often does your company deal with first amendment rights in a public school? Is your company the school? Little confused here how you deal with these types of things on a regular basis when you manage litigation work against the company you work for.

I replied to this in private. I am not getting into specifics here, and no, I certainly don't work for a school, which could not properly be characterized as a "corporation" anyway.

[Tenlaar]

Or ok for assisted suicides? Just cause it's their own body?

So you don't think that people should even have the right to decide if they want to live with excruciating pain, debilitating sickness, complete loss of independence? People should be kept alive, against their will, no matter what? I think you are the one who sounds insane here.

[Jarvan]

So you don't think that people should even have the right to decide if they want to live with excruciating pain, debilitating sickness, complete loss of independence? People should be kept alive, against their will, no matter what? I think you are the one who sounds insane here.

Hmm.. where does the law stand on this issue I wonder?

This is, if you are in excruciating pain etc etc.. you don't really care if your breaking the law. Since you feel so strongly that it should be ok, why not take Dr K's place and go around the country helping people do it?

[Tenlaar]

Since you feel so strongly that abortion is wrong, why don't you travel around the country adopting unwanted babies?

This game is fun.

[Jarvan]

Since you feel so strongly that abortion is wrong, why don't you travel around the country adopting unwanted babies?

This game is fun.

Well, I would adopt, generally tho it's very hard for a single man to adopt a kid on his own. Not impossible, just not easy. Secondly, my job generally keeps me traveling to much right now to have a kid.

Also, not exactly apples to apples you know. Since it wouldn't stop abortion, now would it? Of course I mean, in your little mind you prob thought that was a very good comeback tho. Good for you.

[diethx]

Jesus titty fucking snatchapples, you're insane Jarvan.

[Tenlaar]

Of course I mean, in your little mind you prob thought that was a very good comeback tho. Good for you.

I thought it was just as pointless, juvenile, and asinine as your comment. You get what you give and all that jazz.

[Warriorbird]

Well, I would adopt, generally tho it's very hard for a single man to adopt a kid on his own. Not impossible, just not easy. Secondly, my job generally keeps me traveling to much right now to have a kid.

Also, not exactly apples to apples you know. Since it wouldn't stop abortion, now would it? Of course I mean, in your little mind you prob thought that was a very good comeback tho. Good for you.

Since we're in cheating at online discourse world, I know somebody who's a single male who's adopted a child (who he used to foster.) Why haven't you?

[Androidpk]

Since we're in cheating at online discourse world, I know somebody who's a single male who's adopted a child (who he used to foster.) Why haven't you?

I'm sure he has his name down on a weighting list somewhere.

[4a6c1]

The quickest way to adopt is to become a foster parent. In Texas the process to become a foster parent takes six months. Then they start with placement.

[Showal]

So how often does your company deal with first amendment rights in a public school? Is your company the school? Little confused here how you deal with these types of things on a regular basis when you manage litigation work against the company you work for.

I understand that you fail to understand that if she has done this in a professional setting, even once, after receiving the legal standing to do so, that she certainly has more authority to speak on the matter than you do only debating it casually and ineffectively on an online forum based solely on your uneducated opinions.

Has he made this clear to everyone else too?

[Showal]

The quickest way to adopt is to become a foster parent. In Texas the process to become a foster parent takes six months. Then they start with placement.

Weight, rly?

[4a6c1]

Yeah. I get the urge to BUY Jarvan and Tgo a basic GOVT 101 class every now and then. I literally want to section off a tiny bit of my GI bill just for them.

[EasternBrand]

I'm sure he has his name down on a weighting list somewhere.

Enough already, this whole thread has gone a-rye.

[4a6c1]

Weight, rly?

English is a mean hateful language. People that can't speak it only have my empathy.

[Some Rogue]

English is a mean hateful language. People that can't speak it only have my empathy.

Empathy? So you admit you can't speak it either...or did you mean sympathy?

[Geijon Khyree]

November 6th is fast approaching. I'll be in Europe vacationing, but my absentee ballot is in. I can't wait til this is over with. Like I said before, we gave Bush 8 years. Obama will get a second term.

George W. Bush’s First Term – $1.885 trillion increase
George W. Bush’s Second Term – $3.014 trillion increase

Thats a lot of interest that Obama has to pay on Bush' money. Plus, that high-income tax increase cost us, what, 1.8 trillion more during Obama's presidency? If we had let it expire in 2009 we'd not be building debt, remember? All you math mongers can correct me, but my basic summary is close from memory.

[4a6c1]

Empathy? So you admit you can't speak it either...or did you mean sympathy?

No this is true. I struggle with english. English is a rigid language and it is very difficult. For someone like myself who processes thought primarily in abstract this means I actually think of a word in phonetics first and then translate it to the language that I have been trained to speak even in my native tongue. The only time this is really noticed is when I type. Additionally English is always formal unless it is slang and in this country it is not acceptable to speak slang all the time where in most other countries the informal language is primarily spoken. This is good for preserving our language but bad for people like me who think it's just cumbersome.

Example of formal structures being cumbersome:

English: How are you doing today?
French: Cava?

So in short I don't know if this is Jarvans issue as well but yes, I empathize.

[Tenlaar]

This is good for preserving out language

zomg lrn2engrish

[Androidpk]

English: Sup?
French: Cava?



Don't be such a stiff.

[Jarvan]

November 6th is fast approaching. I'll be in Europe vacationing, but my absentee ballot is in. I can't wait til this is over with. Like I said before, we gave Bush 8 years. Obama will get a second term.

George W. Bush’s First Term – $1.885 trillion increase
George W. Bush’s Second Term – $3.014 trillion increase

Thats a lot of interest that Obama has to pay on Bush' money. Plus, that high-income tax increase cost us, what, 1.8 trillion more during Obama's presidency? If we had let it expire in 2009 we'd not be building debt, remember? All you math mongers can correct me, but my basic summary is close from memory.

Actually, the tax rate cut on income earners 200K+ is about 70 bill a year. So it "cost us" about 320 bill during Obama's term so far. Maybe 1/6th what you claim. Actually, the Middle class tax cut was closer to 340 bill a year. Fiscally speaking, it would make more sense to expire that one to reduce the deficit.

We gave Obama 4 years.. When he fails to deliver in the next 4 (if he gets re-elected), will your rallying cry be, "Give Hillary 4 Years to Finally fix Bush's mess!"

[Jarvan]

No this is true. I struggle with english. English is a rigid language and it is very difficult. For someone like myself who processes thought primarily in abstract this means I actually think of a word in phonetics first and then translate it to the language that I have been trained to speak even in my native tongue. The only time this is really noticed is when I type. Additionally English is always formal unless it is slang and in this country it is not acceptable to speak slang all the time where in most other countries the informal language is primarily spoken. This is good for preserving out language but bad for people like me who think it's just cumbersome.

Example of formal structures being cumbersome:

English: How are you doing today?
French: Cava?

So in short I don't know if this is Jarvans issue as well but yes, I empathize.

Just so I got this straight.. you empathize with me in this case cause Showal made a comment about a comment you made with a word that Androidpk used incorrectly? Shouldn't you be empathizing with PK??

[4a6c1]

Jarvan they were poking fun at you because you mispell every other word.

[Tgo01]

Just so I got this straight.. you empathize with me in this case cause Showal made a comment about a comment you made with a word that Androidpk used incorrectly? Shouldn't you be empathizing with PK??

Jarvan Jarvan Jarvan.

[Jarvan]

Jarvan they were poking fun at you because you mispell every other word.

I mpsels every ohert word?

No, I generally use the wrong word. Like your and you're. Or recently wait and weight. Simply cause I sadly, tend not to think in written words and they literally are the same word spoken.

But, fine. make fun of a few typos here and there, I'll be so kind as to do so in the future as well. Ya see them all the time on these boards. hell, Diethx had a few in the other thread. Jump down her throat.

[Androidpk]

Jarvan! Stahp it Jarvan! Weight, wut r u doing Jarvan?!?