Senate pwnz Constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage

[Artha]

Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A49537-2004Jul14%20&notFound=true).


Victory for freedom, or the forces of Satan?

Discuss.


[edited for some sensationalist content.]

[Edited on 7-14-2004 by Artha]

[Tsa`ah]

Read here (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/14/samesex.marriage/index.html)

The movement only received 48 of the 60 needed votes. McCain didn't even vote for it.

Bush has only divided his own party with this move, and successfully distracted us from the war, the economy, and his own actions.

[Kadumi]

and why would they be on crack if it were approved? do you take it in the out hole?

[Artha]

My topic is better. :bleh:

[Hanksbane]

Originally posted by Kadumi
and why would they be on crack if it were approved? do you take it in the out hole?

. . .

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kadumi
and why would they be on crack if it were approved? do you take it in the out hole?

Do you think skipping backwards uphill on Sundays should be banned by a constitutional amendment? No? Then you must skip backwards uphill every Sunday! Heathen!

Ahem. Anyhow.

They would be on crack if it were approved because they are legislating something that does not involve them and does not harm anyone. Of course, it wouldn't be the first time.

Note: Yes, I know that if the senator is gay, then it does involve him/her. Please allow me to lump them into "them" for ease of argument.

Jorddyn... this should get interesting

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Kadumi
and why would they be on crack if it were approved? do you take it in the out hole?

Do try to be more attentive and less moronic.

Passing it would be a violation of basic human rights.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Artha
My topic is better. :bleh:

Bastard! :P

[Atlanteax]

An unfortunate development...

Perhaps later on in the future it'll get passed.

[vigilante]

Go Senator McCain:

"The constitutional amendment we're debating today strikes me as antithetical in every way to the core philosophy of Republicans," McCain said. "It usurps from the states a fundamental authority they have always possessed and imposes a federal remedy for a problem that most states do not believe confronts them."

[Hulkein]

I didn't realize it was an undeniable human right to get married by an institution.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
An unfortunate development...

Perhaps later on in the future it'll get passed. Why is it unfortunate. Did a gay man propose to you?

Wow I didn't know that marriage was a basic human right!
Damn it seems religious institutions are in our government after all.

[Tsa`ah]

It's very unlikely to ever get passed, and this is a good thing.

At best it is dead in the water. The other alternative is for it to brought up again next year and it's not likely to pass in a liberal senate.

Wow I didn't know that marriage was a basic human right!
Damn it seems religious institutions are in our government after all.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Hulkein
I didn't realize it was an undeniable human right to get married by an institution.

We're not talking about marriage by an institution/church. We're talking about the government providing the same benefits and protections to same sex couples as it does to married couples.

Jorddyn

[Wezas]

This will only lead to people marrying thier pets! (click me) (http://aggressive-voice.com/zz615.html)

:cow: :loveu:

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Heathen!



so if I'm in favor of banning gay marriages (in accordance with the bible) that makes me a heathen?

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Jorddyn
We're not talking about marriage by an institution/church. We're talking about the government providing the same benefits and protections to same sex couples as it does to married couples.

Jorddyn

Did the ammendment deny civil union benefits? I don't mind a gay couple getting the same benefits at all. Any clarification here?

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

We're not talking about marriage by an institution/church. We're talking about the government providing the same benefits and protections to same sex couples as it does to married couples.

Jorddyn

I'm not black. I don't qualify for the african scholarships. oh the injustice!

[DeV]

Originally posted by Wezas
This will only lead to people marrying thier pets! (click me) (http://aggressive-voice.com/zz615.html)

:cow: :loveu:




Nothing will be forbidden and the sanctity of marriage will be a joke.
It already is in most cases. The divorce rate in this country is pretty pathetic.

[Tsa`ah]

A church can refuse to accept and perform a marriage between any two or ten individuals it wants. It is a separate entity from the state.

The state is to run independently and without the influence of the, or any, church. That is in our constitution.

Passing said amendment would violate basic human rights. If you can't see this, then there is no short bus in the world that will help you.

[Hulkein]

The Church says Thou Shalt Not Kill and so does the State, THERE MUST BE SEPERATION!

Just because a state law is the same as a Church law means nothing at all.

Clinton signed a Bill that states the definition of marriage is between a man and a women. How is that any different then say Ford signing a bill that says to qualify for welfare you must be 'X, X, and X'?

[Edited on 7-14-2004 by Hulkein]

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Heathen!

so if I'm in favor of banning gay marriages (in accordance with the bible) that makes me a heathen?

Go back and re-read. It was an obviously misunderstood joke.


Originally posted by Kadumi
I'm not black. I don't qualify for the african scholarships. oh the injustice!

Yes, but no one is trying to create a constitutional amendment stating that only blacks get scholarships, now are they?

Jorddyn

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Yes, but no one is trying to create a constitutional amendment stating that only blacks get scholarships, now are they?

Jorddyn

Yes, but you also don't see judges bending the laws for said scholarships.

[Jorddyn]

By the way, I do have a couple questions for those who are in favor of this amendment, as I'm honestly interested why people are so up in arms about it.

Has your life been harmed by gays who live as married in every respect except for the legal piece of paper?

How will you life be effected if gays who live as married in every respect except for the legal piece of paper are allowed to marry?

Who is harmed by allowing gays to marry? Please also explain how.

Thank you :)

Jorddyn

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Hulkein


Clinton signed a Bill that states the definition of marriage is between a man and a women.

[Edited on 7-14-2004 by Hulkein]

sounds pretty secular to me.

does the constitution define homosexuality as a right?

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Who is harmed by allowing gays to marry? Please also explain how.



Jorddyn

where do you think their benefits come from?

my taxes.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Who is harmed by allowing gays to marry? Please also explain how.



Jorddyn

where do you think their benefits come from?

my taxes. Excuse me, gay people work and pay taxes too. That reply was bullshit.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Yes, but no one is trying to create a constitutional amendment stating that only blacks get scholarships, now are they?

Jorddyn

Yes, but you also don't see judges bending the laws for said scholarships.

:?:

Alright, let me see if I have this right. You're comparing gays getting married to whites wanting black scholarships. And you're saying that the reason we need constitutional protection from gay marriage is because judges are allowing it, while judges are not allowing whites access to black scholarships?

I think I understand where you're coming from, and unfortunately I can't argue with you. I believe that blacks and whites should have access to the same scholarships. So, once again, we're off topic.

Jorddyn

[Hulkein]

I'm not really up in arms, I won't be protesting gays getting married if it ever happens in my state, I just think it tarnishes what marriage is supposed to be and has historically been.

And yes, I believe the white trash pieces of shit who get married for two days and divorce are doing the same thing, unfortunately it's not feasible to make a law to stop them too.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Who is harmed by allowing gays to marry? Please also explain how.



Jorddyn

where do you think their benefits come from?

my taxes.

No more of their benefits come from your taxes than do yours from theirs. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that argument.

Jorddyn

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Alright, let me see if I have this right. You're comparing gays getting married to whites wanting black scholarships.>>

Seems fair to me. You can't get married if you're gay, you can't get a black scholarship if you're white. If you change the rules one on, you have to change them for another.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Excuse me, gay people work and pay taxes too. That reply was bullshit. They sure do. However, the government takes taxes from everyone, and were it to give some of that money to gay people, Kadumi would be correct.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Who is harmed by allowing gays to marry? Please also explain how.



Jorddyn

where do you think their benefits come from?

my taxes.

Because the gay people don't pay any taxes, right?

So does that mean right now that the gays are paying the hetero married people's marriage tax benefit?

Should they have to?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<No more of their benefits come from your taxes than do yours from theirs. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that argument.>>

Doesn't mean he's (Kadumi) not being harmed by them. He went from not paying the gay marriage benefit tax to paying the gay marriage benefit tax.

[vigilante]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Who is harmed by allowing gays to marry? Please also explain how.



Jorddyn

where do you think their benefits come from?

my taxes.

Where do you think your benefits come from?

Their taxes (and yours).

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Hulkein
I just think it tarnishes what marriage is supposed to be and has historically been.


You should have stopped after "supposed to be." Marriage has not historically been this wonderful, grand romantic institution. Historically, it was more of a business transaction than anything.

Don't take that to say I don't think marriage is a good thing. I do, I just don't think it is this grand, sacred testament to God and country.

Jorddyn

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Excuse me, gay people work and pay taxes too. That reply was bullshit.

right, fine.

but my taxes go up for a right that they have fabricated.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein
And yes, I believe the white trash pieces of shit who get married for two days and divorce are doing the same thing, unfortunately it's not feasible to make a law to stop them too. Are you thinking clearly?

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<No more of their benefits come from your taxes than do yours from theirs. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that argument.>>

Doesn't mean he's (Kadumi) not being harmed by them. He went from not paying the gay marriage benefit tax to paying the gay marriage benefit tax.

That's like saying he's harmed because I married my high school sweetheart, so I shouldn't be allowed to marry him.

Jorddyn

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Jorddyn
I just don't think it is this grand, sacred testament to God and country.

Jorddyn

what's the divorce rate in this country? (rhetorical)

[DeV]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Excuse me, gay people work and pay taxes too. That reply was bullshit. They sure do. However, the government takes taxes from everyone, and were it to give some of that money to gay people, Kadumi would be correct. Latrin, Im trying to use my common sense here to decipher why that would happen.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Marriage has not historically been this wonderful, grand romantic institution.It's historically been man + woman. Ask Jesus.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Marriage has not historically been this wonderful, grand romantic institution.It's historically been man + woman. Ask Jesus.

You have his E-mail address?

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Latrin, Im trying to use my common sense here to decipher why that would happen. Kadumi says: his taxes will provide for gays' benefits.
You say: Bullshit.

However, if the government collects taxes from everyone (even John Denver look alikes), and provides gay benefits, then Kadumi will in some small way provide for gays' benefits.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<That's like saying he's harmed because I married my high school sweetheart, so I shouldn't be allowed to marry him.>>

No, it's not. As a citizen of the United States who pays their taxes, one would typically give their money to the government and know it goes to a man/woman couple. If money is also being given to gays, then either you're paying more, or you're getting less in return. No matter what the situation, if you start taxing for gay benefits, it harms others.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Excuse me, gay people work and pay taxes too. That reply was bullshit.

right, fine.

but my taxes go up for a right that they have fabricated.

Since right now there is actually a tax penalty to being married, you must mean... um... survivor SS benefits? SS is so screwed anyhow that I hardly think the difference it will have to pay in survivor benefits will make a difference in your taxes. If it goes up from it's current 6.2% because of this, though, I'll eat my words on that :)

If there are others that I cannot think of, please let me know.

Jorddyn

Edited to add "because of this"

[Edited on 7-14-2004 by Jorddyn]

Call it a fucking Civil Union for all I care. Just dont call it marriage because it is not.

Give them the rights, I dont give a shit. Just dont call it marriage because it is not.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Wezas
You have his E-mail address? P-mail only, sorry. His wireless is really terrible, and I've never caught Him in the Office. (looking for more words to capitalize... nah that's enough)

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol

Seems fair to me. You can't get married if you're gay, you can't get a black scholarship if you're white. If you change the rules one on, you have to change them for another.

:clap:

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<That's like saying he's harmed because I married my high school sweetheart, so I shouldn't be allowed to marry him.>>

No, it's not. As a citizen of the United States who pays their taxes, one would typically give their money to the government and know it goes to a man/woman couple. If money is also being given to gays, then either you're paying more, or you're getting less in return. No matter what the situation, if you start taxing for gay benefits, it harms others.

If that is the case, then I am harmed by the man/woman couple because I am not in a married couple, and I'm paying more to support their benefits. Therefore, all marriage should be banned.

Jorddyn

[Bobmuhthol]

You just said you married your high school sweetheart, so you lose.


Serious answer:

<<Therefore, all marriage should be banned.>>

Wrong. Marriage is marriage. Gay marriage does not exist, because gays do not get married. Money gets paid to married people. It does not get paid to gay people. Therefore, paying money to gay people harms everyone not gay. That doesn't mean you should ban gay marriage, it means it harms everyone else.

Gay marriage is a dumb idea anyway, but just because you pay taxes for it is not the reason.

[Edited on 7-14-2004 by Bobmuhthol]

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Marriage has not historically been this wonderful, grand romantic institution.It's historically been man + woman. Ask Jesus.

Have him stop by and I will gladly ask him how he sees marriage and gay m arriage.

Jorddyn

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Jorddyn
I hardly think the difference it will have to pay in survivor benefits will make a difference in your taxes.

[Edited on 7-14-2004 by Jorddyn]

since its so negligible will you pay my share for me?

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Have him stop by and I will gladly ask him how he sees marriage and gay m arriage.

Jorddyn

if that's what you're looking for, its in the bible.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
You just said you married your high school sweetheart, so you lose.

It was an example, Bob, not an actual.

And, in case anyone is wondering why I care, I'm 28, female, unmarried, and straight, but this topic is just dear to my heart as I had a friend who killed herself over how she was treated because of her sexual preference.

Jorddyn

[DeV]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Latrin, Im trying to use my common sense here to decipher why that would happen. Kadumi says: his taxes will provide for gays' benefits.
You say: Bullshit.

However, if the government collects taxes from everyone (even John Denver look alikes), and provides gay benefits, then Kadumi will in some small way provide for gays' benefits. When that happens, give me a ring.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Have him stop by and I will gladly ask him how he sees marriage and gay m arriage.

Jorddyn

if that's what you're looking for, its in the bible. I just talked to God last night, and he forgot to mention that one.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Have him stop by and I will gladly ask him how he sees marriage and gay m arriage.Go ahead. You ever see that painting with Jesus outside the house, and he's knocking, and there's no doorknob on the outside? Yeah. It's like that.

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Latrin, Im trying to use my common sense here to decipher why that would happen. Kadumi says: his taxes will provide for gays' benefits.
You say: Bullshit.

However, if the government collects taxes from everyone (even John Denver look alikes), and provides gay benefits, then Kadumi will in some small way provide for gays' benefits. When that happens, give me a ring.

I'll be calling the first time that gays get a tax break because of their 'marriage.' and what happens when they adopt a kid? that's a dependent they get to mark down.

whether or not being gay parents is a moral endeavor is another debate entirely

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Have him stop by and I will gladly ask him how he sees marriage and gay m arriage.

Jorddyn

if that's what you're looking for, its in the bible. I just talked to God last night, and he forgot to mention that one.

have you READ the bible?

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Kadumi

I'll be calling the first time that gays get a tax break because of their 'marriage.' and what happens when they adopt a kid? that's a dependent they get to mark down.

whether or not being gay parents is a moral endeavor is another debate entirely

<news flash>
Gay people already adopt kids.
</news flash>

[DianaBanana]

I'm all for gay marriage or civil unions. I have no problems with gay people, hell, one of my best friends is a lesbian. And that is all I will say on the subject (until someone pisses me off in this thread). ;)

[DeV]

Kadumi, news flash, there are tons of gay people who have children and file them on their taxes already.

When they adopt a kid, hmmmmm.. that means that your and my taxes are spared a few extra pennies because we are not supporting another kid in the system with each pay check.

Someone explain to me why a gay married couple would be given a tax break?

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Marriage has not historically been this wonderful, grand romantic institution.It's historically been man + woman. Ask Jesus.

Have him stop by and I will gladly ask him how he sees marriage and gay m arriage.

Jorddyn

"Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah --from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities --and also the vegetation in the land." Genesis 19:24, 25 NIV)

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn
I hardly think the difference it will have to pay in survivor benefits will make a difference in your taxes.

[Edited on 7-14-2004 by Jorddyn]

since its so negligible will you pay my share for me?

If I can prove that it won't cost you more overall, will you send me a check?

Things to consider - Married people are healthier, therefore lower health insurance costs.

Married people are less likely to be on welfare, therefore lower welfare costs.

Married people are more likely to live together, therefore putting less strain on the housing market, therefore lower housing costs for all.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can nitpick costs across the board, but in the end the up or down is going to be so small that it is irrelevant. So my answer is no, I will not send you a check because while you may be able to find one facet that costs you more, you will ignore the others that save you money. You will also never be able to exactly quantify your financial 'harm' or 'gain' from the situation, because there are too many variables and the net dollar amount per individual will probably not be worth the postage stamp.

Jorddyn

[DeV]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Have him stop by and I will gladly ask him how he sees marriage and gay m arriage.

Jorddyn

if that's what you're looking for, its in the bible. I just talked to God last night, and he forgot to mention that one.

have you READ the bible? YES, have you? And also tell me if you have ever committed a sin while your at it. <-- not necessary, but you see where I'm coming from.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
You just said you married your high school sweetheart, so you lose.


Serious answer:

<<Therefore, all marriage should be banned.>>

Wrong. Marriage is marriage. Gay marriage does not exist, because gays do not get married. Money gets paid to married people. It does not get paid to gay people. Therefore, paying money to gay people harms everyone not gay. That doesn't mean you should ban gay marriage, it means it harms everyone else.

Gay marriage is a dumb idea anyway, but just because you pay taxes for it is not the reason.

[Edited on 7-14-2004 by Bobmuhthol]

:?:

I don't think I even want to attempt to decipher that. Claim victory. I'll go back to discussing with posts that make sense rather than stating "Gay marriage does not exist, because gays do not get married."

Jorddyn

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Kadumi, news flash, there are tons of gay people who have children and file them on their taxes already.

Someone explain to me why a gay married couple would be given a tax break?

yes, I know. and it pisses me off.

do you pay attention to the issues?? 90% of the argument by the gays is ECONOMIC

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Have him stop by and I will gladly ask him how he sees marriage and gay m arriage.

Jorddyn

if that's what you're looking for, its in the bible. I just talked to God last night, and he forgot to mention that one.

have you READ the bible?

So I know what I'm dealing with here, do you believe that everything in the bible is word-for-word true?

Jorddyn

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Atlanteax
An unfortunate development...

Perhaps later on in the future it'll get passed. Why is it unfortunate. Did a gay man propose to you?

Maybe he's pissed off because they didn't and if it was banned at least there'd be an excuse for it. Instead he's just licking his wounds ;)

[Czeska]

If your church is against gay marriage, fine. Do not let same sex couples get married in your church.

As far as a civil ceremony? That's crap. There are 2 people who deserve the same governemental rights, regardless of sexual orientation.

And what the Bible says should ideally have no bearing on what the Constitution says, or vice versa. Freedom of Religion means ANY religion.

You want to vote on rights? Fine. You want to vote on morality? Fuck off.
It's a fine line, I know. But when you can assure me that straight couples are going to be ideal spouses and parents, and same sex couples are not... perhaps I'll listen again to the discussion.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Kadumi, news flash, there are tons of gay people who have children and file them on their taxes already.

Someone explain to me why a gay married couple would be given a tax break?

yes, I know. and it pisses me off.

do you pay attention to the issues?? 90% of the argument by the gays is ECONOMIC Of course I pay attention to the issues. You wouldn't be having this debate with me if I wasn't. How does it piss you off if a gay woman who had children by way of natural birth claims her children when filing taxes? :?:

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kadumi
I'll be calling the first time that gays get a tax break because of their 'marriage.' and what happens when they adopt a kid? that's a dependent they get to mark down.

whether or not being gay parents is a moral endeavor is another debate entirely

Because if the gay couple didn't adopt that kid, no one else would, and no one else would be claiming the exemption.

Want your head to explode, though? I believe there's a 10,000 tax CREDIT (not deduction) for adopting. Chew on that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I knew there used to be.

Jorddyn

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Jorddyn
So I know what I'm dealing with here, do you believe that everything in the bible is word-for-word true?

Jorddyn

irrelevant.

my argument was with the secular aspect. I just chose to comment on the religious part too.

and yes, I've sinned. but I don't make a conscious effort in planning to do it again.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kadumi
do you pay attention to the issues?? 90% of the argument by the gays is ECONOMIC

Lower cost of health insurance. Offset? There will be fewer uninsured and underinsured, so fewer unpaid bills for the hospital, so lower overall costs.

Rights of survivorship. You're not getting their money anyway. It just makes it easier.

Joint health club memberships.

There are a million things. Very few, if any, 'harm' anyone.

Jorddyn

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Czeska
There are 2 people who deserve the same governemental rights, regardless of sexual orientation.


not according to the law.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Jorddyn
If that is the case, then I am harmed by the man/woman couple because I am not in a married couple, and I'm paying more to support their benefits. Therefore, all marriage should be banned.


Originally posted by Czeska
You want to vote on rights? Fine. You want to vote on morality? Fuck off.
It's a fine line, I know. But when you can assure me that straight couples are going to be ideal spouses and parents, and same sex couples are not... perhaps I'll listen again to the discussion.

I :heart: Jorddyn and Czeska.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn
So I know what I'm dealing with here, do you believe that everything in the bible is word-for-word true?

Jorddyn

irrelevant.

my argument was with the secular aspect. I just chose to comment on the religious part too.

and yes, I've sinned. but I don't make a conscious effort in planning to do it again.

Perfectly relevant. It's been years since I've read the bible, but I'm certain it also has rules against eating pork (somewhere in Leviticus?) and working on Sunday among other things. I was just making sure that if you were going to champion one statement in the bible, you were going to champion all.

Jorddyn

[DeV]

Originally posted by Kadumi
90% of the argument by the gays is ECONOMIC I understand that. However I'd like to know how gay marriage would be taking anything away from YOUR current economic situation? What are the benefits that gay married couples *only* would be gaining if it was legalized.

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by Kadumi
do you pay attention to the issues?? 90% of the argument by the gays is ECONOMIC

Lower cost of health insurance. Offset? There will be fewer uninsured and underinsured, so fewer unpaid bills for the hospital, so lower overall costs.

Rights of survivorship. You're not getting their money anyway. It just makes it easier.

Joint health club memberships.

There are a million things. Very few, if any, 'harm' anyone.

Jorddyn

yes, and if I were black I could get those african scholarships.

[Czeska]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Czeska
There are 2 people who deserve the same governemental rights, regardless of sexual orientation.


not according to the law.

The law is wrong. And I'm going home. Have a lovely evening.

Simple way to fix the problem for me.
The state cannot marry anyone. They can provide civil unions.
A religious institution can marry.
Simple and easy.

[CrystalTears]

OMG Kadumi has serious black scholarship issues.

[Kefka]

Look in the bible. Quotes from the bible. We're talking about an amendment. Seperation of church and state? Give a non bible reason why you're for the amendment.

As for the tax reason, you're not paying more for their marriage than they are for yours. If you don't want to cover their bill, does that mean they should cover yours?

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Kadumi
yes, and if I were black I could get those african scholarships.

Should we start an affirmative action thread?

<waits for the groans>

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Perfectly relevant. It's been years since I've read the bible, but I'm certain it also has rules against eating pork (somewhere in Leviticus?) and working on Sunday among other things. I was just making sure that if you were going to champion one statement in the bible, you were going to champion all.

Jorddyn

point the pork verse out to me? I haven't heard that one.

yes, sunday is a day of rest. hell, its wednesday and I'm resting. :grin:

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Have him stop by and I will gladly ask him how he sees marriage and gay m arriage.Go ahead. You ever see that painting with Jesus outside the house, and he's knocking, and there's no doorknob on the outside? Yeah. It's like that.

Ha! I don't live in a house!

Honestly, I have a wonderful faith that does include Jesus. I just get the feeling that with me he preaches "love thy neighbor" and with you he preaches... uh... "Don't let gays marry."

Jorddyn

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by Kadumi
do you pay attention to the issues?? 90% of the argument by the gays is ECONOMIC

Lower cost of health insurance. Offset? There will be fewer uninsured and underinsured, so fewer unpaid bills for the hospital, so lower overall costs.

Rights of survivorship. You're not getting their money anyway. It just makes it easier.

Joint health club memberships.

There are a million things. Very few, if any, 'harm' anyone.

Jorddyn

yes, and if I were black I could get those african scholarships.

And that would in fact take it from someone else, whereas I gave very specific examples of them getting without others losing.

Jorddyn

[DeV]

Originally posted by Kadumi
yes, and if I were black I could get those african scholarships. Yea, I know how you feel. I applied for a couple 'african' scholarships and don't you know they wouldn't give them to me either!

However, a full academic scholarship does wonders.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Perfectly relevant. It's been years since I've read the bible, but I'm certain it also has rules against eating pork (somewhere in Leviticus?) and working on Sunday among other things. I was just making sure that if you were going to champion one statement in the bible, you were going to champion all.

Jorddyn

point the pork verse out to me? I haven't heard that one.

yes, sunday is a day of rest. hell, its wednesday and I'm resting. :grin:

'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain"

"'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy"

"'You shall not commit adultery"

"You shall not steal"

Innocent of all charges?

[Back]

Man oh man now you guys went and opened up a whole nother can o worms.

The church should define marriage, not the state.

Originally posted by CrystalTears
OMG Kadumi has serious black scholarship issues.

Oh trust me I do to. I have a very big issue with Legal Racial Discrimination
Being a white, young, male I have all three things against me. I am oppressed by the government, yet the ACLU does nothing about it.

[Parkbandit]

I don't think there should be a constitutional amendment, but I also don't think there should be laws granted for same sex marriages.

Unions yes.. marriages, no.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Honestly, I have a wonderful faith that does include Jesus. I just get the feeling that with me he preaches "love thy neighbor" and with you he preaches... uh... "Don't let gays marry."

Out of my head, woman! I was just thinking of "love thy neighbor".

We need to stop using religion as a reference for this as the church can do whatever they want for marriages. As far as the state/government is concerned, they shouldn't be delegating who can or can't get married. It's a union. I really don't see how it affects anyone negatively other than prejudism towards gay people.

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Wezas
'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain"

"'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy"

"'You shall not commit adultery"

"You shall not steal"

Innocent of all charges?

yep, I try to follow those to the best of my ability. I certainly never make a conscious effort to do otherwise.

[DianaBanana]

The church needs to go away and stop sticking its nose in everyones business who isnt catholic/christian ect...

They dont want to allow gays to get married, fine, dont let it happen in your church. But do me a favor and stay out of my government. Thanks.

<---Happy agnostic.

[Skirmisher]

Obviously no one will be harmed.

Obviously a huge part of the argument to legalize same sex marriages is economic.

No, a civil union, while better than nothing is NOT as good as being married. Many, if not all do not have all the same legal rights as those gained when a couple marries. Inherritance is a huge issue. How appalling is it that family that may have totally rejected someone simply for loving another human being of legal age then upon their death gets a percentage if not all of their belongings as the person that was their best friend and confidant and care giver for years is the same sex and so not elligible to be "married". That person may lose their home, their belongings, their life as they know it. It happens, its horribly sad and unnaceptable.

It will always carry the stigma of being like the red haired stepchild. Kinda like....but not quite as good.

Anyone who wants to fight this is of course welcome to it, but in the end you will lose. Wake up and drag yourself out of the fifties and lose the fear.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Perfectly relevant. It's been years since I've read the bible, but I'm certain it also has rules against eating pork (somewhere in Leviticus?) and working on Sunday among other things. I was just making sure that if you were going to champion one statement in the bible, you were going to champion all.

Jorddyn

point the pork verse out to me? I haven't heard that one.


Relevant would be Leviticus 11:3, 7-8.


3 Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat. ...7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. 8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

So, no touching or eating pork. Oh, and footballs are made of pig skin, are they not?

Jorddyn

[Silversi]

Gods... this is craziness.. So what .... then because someone is gay, they no longer are human? They no longer deserve the same rights as everyone who isn't gay? Do you think that because *I* am not christian, that I shouldn't get rights either? Same difference in my mind. I'm different than mainstream, big deal, are ya gonna take my rights away from me because I'm a witch? lol I dont think so. Are you going to take rights away from jewish people? Buddist? What about people that say.. dip their banana's in salt? That's different.. oh my gods.. salt dipped bananas! BAN THEM FROM FROM ALL HUMAN RIGHTS!

:rant:

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by SkirmisherNo, a civil union, while better than nothing is NOT as good as being married.

I agree. I think we tried separate but equal once....

However, I think civil unions may be a good step toward showing people that gays are not actually bent on world domination and taking their first step by marrying and having babies. Viva la revolution! (Or whatever it should be, I only speak English.)

Jorddyn

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DianaBanana
(until someone pisses me off in this thread).Juggling sucks. :medieval:
Originally posted by Jorddyn
I believe there's a 10,000 tax CREDIT (not deduction) for adopting.Credits are the same as deductions, in that you pay less.
Ha! I don't live in a house!No, you ARE the house. At least that's what I always took from that painting.
I just get the feeling that with me he preaches "love thy neighbor" and with you he preaches... uh... "Don't let gays marry."You don't know me very well. ;)

Seriously, I don't want to get into what I want for this issue, because last time it took around 80 posts, and I've got a game tonight. To be concise:

a) I don't hate gay people.
b) For Galleazzo: I don't hate gay people.
c) Different people are not the same.
d) Different people should not be treated the same.
e) I don't hate gay people.
f) Every person is different.
g) Therefore, every group of people is different.
h) I REALLY don't hate gay people.
i) Therefore, every person (and thus every group of people, by coincidence) should be treated differently.

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
How appalling is it that family that may have totally rejected someone simply for loving another human being of legal age then upon their death gets a percentage if not all of their belongings as the person that was their best friend and confidant and care giver for years is the same sex and so not elligible to be "married". That person may lose their home, their belongings, their life as they know it. It happens, its horribly sad and unnaceptable.


whether or not its appalling is irrelevant. if you really want something to be done about it, get a majority of the population and elect someone (or run yourself). such is the way of the representative democracy.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Kadumi
whether or not its appalling is irrelevant. if you really want something to be done about it, get a majority of the population and elect someone (or run yourself). such is the way of the representative democracy. Things are being done, as you can see. Slowly but surely.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Silversi
What about people that say.. dip their banana's in salt? That's different.. oh my gods.. salt dipped bananas! BAN THEM FROM FROM ALL HUMAN RIGHTS!

:rant:

Or worse yet, gays with their salt dipped bananas!

http://sweetlittleblonde.com/julia01/julia09.jpg

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Kadumi
whether or not its appalling is irrelevant. if you really want something to be done about it, get a majority of the population and elect someone (or run yourself). such is the way of the representative democracy.

No, it isnt irrelevant. And it's why the opinion of the country is swaying. Too slowly for my preference perhaps, but nontheless happeneing.

As I have said before, anyone who wishes to live in the past can try to fight it, but yes, you can bet I will do my best to elect people who don't live with their heads stuck in the ground and see a loving couple as simply that.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Originally posted by Jorddyn
I believe there's a 10,000 tax CREDIT (not deduction) for adopting.Credits are the same as deductions, in that you pay less.

Credits are better, though, which is why I figured it'd be even more annoying. 10,000 tax credit = you owe 10,000 less. 10,000 tax deduction = you owe taxes on 10,000 less.


You don't know me very well. ;)

Very true.



f) Every person is different.
g) Therefore, every group of people is different.
i) Therefore, every person (and thus every group of people, by coincidence) should be treated differently.

I agree that people need, for exampe, different motivators, different jobs, different parenting styles. On the same note, I think that everyone still needs motivators, jobs, and parents.

So, instead of a man/woman marriage, they get a man/man or woman/woman civil union. It's a start.

Jorddyn

Note: I don't believe that motivators, jobs, or parents are basic human rights. I'm just using them as examples because they're the first thing that popped into my head.

Note 2: Parents should be a basic human right.

Edited because I can't spell.

[Edited on 7-14-2004 by Jorddyn]

[Silversi]

Originally posted by Wezas

Or worse yet, gays with their salt dipped bananas!



:yes: nice pic by the way :lol:

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Jorddyn
So, no touching or eating pork. Oh, and footballs are made of pig skin, are they not?

And not just pigs either.


9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.

10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.

12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Stolen from the God Hates Shrimp (http://www.godhatesshrimp.com) website. So if you eat shrimp, mussels, oysters, clams... Got news for you: you're no better than those damn faggots. Have a nice day!

Raven

[Jorddyn]

By the way, I :heart: being able to have this discussion without OMG YOU ARE ALL SUCH IDIOTS FAGGOTS SUCK GOD HATES YOU being thrown in. Thanks :)

[Axhinde]

I agree with gay marriage being church sanctioned, and not state.

Mixing religion and politics is bad business, add morals in the mix and you've got yourself a time bomb.

Whatever happens with it, we'll all adapt and improvise, like we always do. (Generally speaking, as a human race.)

[Bobby]

The biggest issue with this that I havn't seen brought up...

The analogy of a driver's license and marriage. If I get a license to drive in California, it is legal to drive in all 50 states, parts of Canada, and all of Mexico. I can also get an international driver's license just to use in Europe, Asia and other continents.

Now, two people get "married" in Mass. now that its legal there, the states who vehimently do not want to have same sex marriages will now be forced to honor those out of state marriages.

That's the real crux of the matter. Is it the right of other states to force the will of the people from those states, onto those states who do not wish to be part of this?

Now you know why the Senate was even thinking about an ammendment. It's for that one issue.

My personal opinions are live and let live. Two people love each other and can SIGN A PIECE OF PAPER (included for dog/cat lovers, you sick people) let them get married. Who cares.

Just my two cents.

Bobby.

[Kefka]

Senate Bill 1139 SECTION 2. The State Textbook Committee shall have the authority to insert a one-page summary, opinion, or disclaimer into any textbook reviewed and authorized for use in the public schools of Oklahoma.... SECTION 3. When adopting science textbooks, the Committee shall ensure that the textbooks include acknowledgment that human life was created by one God of the Universe.

This is why religion should stay out of the constitution.

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Kefka
Senate Bill 1139 SECTION 2. The State Textbook Committee shall have the authority to insert a one-page summary, opinion, or disclaimer into any textbook reviewed and authorized for use in the public schools of Oklahoma.... SECTION 3. When adopting science textbooks, the Committee shall ensure that the textbooks include acknowledgment that human life was created by one God of the Universe.

This is why religion should stay out of the constitution.

conversely, it is necessary for evolution to be taught as a THEORY.

[Kefka]

Theory for Christians

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Kadumi

conversely, it is necessary for evolution to be taught as a THEORY.

EVERYTHING is a theory.

Just some are more accepted at present.

[Kadumi]

Originally posted by Kefka
Theory for Christians

theory for everybody. evolution is not fact.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Kefka
Theory for Christians

theory for everybody. evolution is not fact.

So the bones we find of early man were planted there by evil archaeologists? Because, after all, Adam and Eve and everyone who followed were upright.

[Satira]

Get the religion out of my friggin government!

If they ever do pass an amendment that says gay people can't get married and it has ANYTHING to do with religion, I will never get married. I will get a UNION with the guy, because I don't want to be involved in anything that tells people who they can and can't marry because of who they like to have sex with. Marriage should be about love, not sex. And even straight people don't have THAT part down yet.

It's all coming from a book that was written forever and a god damn day ago, by who the hell knows, and the people who are constantly preaching out of it don't follow it perfectly, ANYWAYS.

If marriage turns into this religious CRAP that people keep making out to be, I'm done with it.

[Caiylania]

My one and only post in this thread will be to simply voice the fact that I believe gay people have the right to be legally joined in marriage as much as a man and woman do.

I have a friend who is gay and she is engaged. Has been for 6 years. In that time they have accomplished and overcome what many straight couples strive for. They are happy, in love, and if that was all it took, complete. But they want the gov't to recognize they are as much a couple as my husband and I. To share the same last name, have a child that is legally both of theirs, fill in forms that ask for spouses names with that of their wife. Those might seem like little things, but there are so many little things that build up.

I am tired of it being political this, religion that. This country is supposed to stand for the people. All of them. Why can not this loving couple do the same as their married straight friends? It is about their moments in life, not about debates on TV. Or the latest polls.

So many people DON'T want marriage. Family, kids. Yet it is encouraged. The standard. Here are people FIGHTING to have that, and being denied it.

When I see my friends celebrate another year of happiness, another year of hoping for a future of being accepted for who they are. It makes me realize that those that fight against it, while they might truly not have a problem with gay people themselves, are causing normal, everyday people, to suffer.

I'm tired, and this post probably won't sound right. So to end...

Love is a special thing. Whether it lasts a brief moment, or a hundred years. The fight for gay marriage isn't just about legalities, it's about trying to show the world that love isn't just something that belongs to a select group of people.

If anyone really thinks that this whole fight is about being able to claim someone on their taxes, or health benefits, fighting the system, or whatever...... it's not.

It is about people who simply wish to share their lives like the rest of us. It's about making a wave so that the world can slowly but surely accept the differences that make that very world so wonderful.

[Kefka]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Kefka
Theory for Christians

theory for everybody. evolution is not fact.

Not saying it's a fact. Saying that everyone isn't Christian. You can't force your religious views on everyone.

[DianaBanana]

Um read this if you want. I dunno, found it and thought it was interesting. Not saying I agree or disagree with it though.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

P.S. I have over 1000 posts now, I'm a knight. b00yah!

[Edited on 7-14-2004 by DianaBanana]

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Caiylania

(Her entire post)


Very, very well said.

Raven

[DeV]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Caiylania

(Her entire post)


Very, very well said.

Raven Agreed. Straight from the heart, you can't get any realer than that.

[xShadowMerchantx]

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha


Bush needs to sit on big fat dick. (without lube)

This reminds me of an episode on the chapelle show where he's impersonating Dubya.

Reporter: "Mister Bush, What about the rising death toll in Iraq, the unstable economy, overseas jobs, etc..."

Answer -

Bush: OMFG LOOOOK! A GAY MARRIAGE! RUN FOR YOUR FUCKING LIVES!

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DianaBanana
Um read this if you want. I dunno, found it and thought it was interesting. Not saying I agree or disagree with it though.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html Never trust science. I love science, but it's terribly fallible.
P.S. I have over 1000 posts now, I'm a knight. b00yah!:party::clown::cake::ban::D

edit: I dunno what that was.

[Edited on 7-15-2004 by Latrinsorm]

[Delirium]

Oh, and footballs are made of pig skin, are they not?

Seperation of church and sports! This is the one right that should be stood for tooth and nail no holds barred. That just hurts my heart to even hear that.


I think they should allow gay marriage. The amendment was a bad idea. They should have noticed there was no huge outcry after MA legalized it. As for econimically i dont see how it would put a burden on the tax payers as Jorddyn mentioned there are many offsets. Plus come on they are gay,their weddings will pump a ton of money into the economy with gaudy expensive things /stereotype.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Delirium
Plus come on they are gay,their weddings will pump a ton of money into the economy with gaudy expensive things /stereotype.

$16.8 billion to be exact. At least according to Forbes magazine :)

Raven

[Hanksbane]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Have him stop by and I will gladly ask him how he sees marriage and gay m arriage.

Jorddyn

if that's what you're looking for, its in the bible. I just talked to God last night, and he forgot to mention that one.

have you READ the bible?

Anyone see where in the the Bible it says "written by Jesus"?

[Hanksbane]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Skirmisher
How appalling is it that family that may have totally rejected someone simply for loving another human being of legal age then upon their death gets a percentage if not all of their belongings as the person that was their best friend and confidant and care giver for years is the same sex and so not elligible to be "married". That person may lose their home, their belongings, their life as they know it. It happens, its horribly sad and unnaceptable.


whether or not its appalling is irrelevant. if you really want something to be done about it, get a majority of the population and elect someone (or run yourself). such is the way of the representative democracy.

Funny. The last time the majority voted for something the other guy won.

[Hulkein]

HAHAHAHAHA

[Scott]

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Honestly, I have a wonderful faith that does include Jesus. I just get the feeling that with me he preaches "love thy neighbor" and with you he preaches... uh... "Don't let gays marry."

What does not letting gays marry have anything to do with "love thy neighbor." The bible states that "thou shalt not kill" however nowhere does it state that you must hate anyone that kills, you're suppose to look down on the sin, not the person. By not letting gays marry, it doesn't mean that you aren't suppose to hate that said person.

I'm in favor of gay marriages though. I really could care less if 2 men, 2 women, or 1 man and 1 woman want to get married. Who am I to stand in the way of two people getting married? It doesn't effect anyone, so what's the problem. If they are both human, then more power too them for taking the step to be married.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
It doesn't effect anyoneOne word: boxturtles. :yes:

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Have him stop by and I will gladly ask him how he sees marriage and gay m arriage.

Jorddyn

if that's what you're looking for, its in the bible.

Do tell, I love this argument, point out the instances where gay marriage is forbidden in the bible. Even point out where homosexuality is condemned in the bible.

I do so love this game.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Jorddyn
Marriage has not historically been this wonderful, grand romantic institution.It's historically been man + woman. Ask Jesus.

Have him stop by and I will gladly ask him how he sees marriage and gay m arriage.

Jorddyn

"Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah --from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities --and also the vegetation in the land." Genesis 19:24, 25 NIV)

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for a number of reasons, chiefly the way they treated visitors and ignored the sacred right of hospitality.

Leave it to homophobes to butcher my Torah.

NEXT!

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Kadumi

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Kadumi, news flash, there are tons of gay people who have children and file them on their taxes already.

Someone explain to me why a gay married couple would be given a tax break?

yes, I know. and it pisses me off.

do you pay attention to the issues?? 90% of the argument by the gays is ECONOMIC

There isn't an economic question here at all.

Do you gain benefits, or see any of the benefits when someone you don't even know dies? No.

That money is absorbed by the provider or the immediate family, even if they have disowned the deceased.

Gay marriage will have 0 burden on your taxes or you benefits.

The economic argument has no foundation. Grab for another straw.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Kadumi

point the pork verse out to me? I haven't heard that one.

yes, sunday is a day of rest. hell, its wednesday and I'm resting. :grin:

Hey Oral Roberts, read Leviticus.

The Sabbath is not Sunday. That is your European transliteral blunder. The Sabbath, as it has been for thousands of years, starts sundown FRIDAY, ends sunup SATURDAY.

Leviticus will outline what you are not to eat, what you are not to fuck, what you are not to wear, what you are not to say, what you are not to touch. Many many things.

And if you get to the part about homosexuality, that's tucked in there with incest and bestiality, it only condemns male homosexuality.

Until you live your life by everything listed in that particular book (Leviticus) can you condemn gays and gay marriage.

Until that time, call me to schedule your death by stoning.

[Kadumi]

I already got a big enough headache arguing this once today so I'll make just one post.

first off, my objection in context of this argument isn't religious. its political.

friday. I have no problem resting friday. great. I really had no idea about the pork verse. I'm not a biblical scholar. all that other stuff can be made into another thread.

if you seriously think that it has no economic ramifications, especially on you, then you need some head work.

the fact is that they don't qualify for something they're asking for. simple enough. why don't they qualify? read the law. object to the law? get it changed.

that's enough for me.

[Tsa`ah]

And the law is being changed little by little.

You brought up religion, not I. I can't help it you brought a stick to a tank fight.

Please do outline what economic ramifications will directly affect you, the single hetero male, and myself, a married hetero man.

You can't. There are none.

There isn't a gay tax or a straight tax. So the size of the pool does not change. Already there are gay parents that can claim an EIC and head of household, why? Because even if they live with another person, the law does not recognize that. But hey, if they get married ... the HOH goes bye bye, and the EIC gets smaller and in many cases probably disappears.

So tell me, how is this newly married couple gaining any more benefit? Looks like they lose some benefit.

What is it, life insurance? Do you pay their premiums? How does this affect you?

As pointed out Government death benefits? You're worried about a few hundred dollars when there are so many more receiving disability that are perfectly able to work? And guess what, I'm willing to bet a majority of them are heterosexual.

Point out exactly where this will cost you a dime and I'll point to what is costing you hundreds of thousands of dimes in your life time that have far greater economical affects on you.

You straw grasping and veiled question about my sexuality leads me to believe you're a bit more homophobic than you want to admitt.

[Hanksbane]

Eh, just face it. The sad state of affairs is there are still people who are still so closed minded that they will never accept people who they feel are too different from themselves. Just look at American history. How old is this country? 228 years old. It's been only roughly 40 years since "colored" people have been "considered" equal by law. Yet there are still people who belive otherwise. Hell there are still people who still believe that men and women shouldn't be treated equally. So, is it any wonder that there are still so many people today that condemn homosexual people?

People can argue that the law states that marriage is between a man and a woman, therefore Gay marriages are illegal. Well, guess what. Laws change. The American forefathers made sure that laws can change. I believe that this law will have to change sooner or later. So to those of you who hide behind the this law ask yourselves this: If that law never stated that marriage is only between a man and a woman, would you feel differently? I bet some would, but a majority would still feel the same and find some other argument against gay marriage. Why? Because they are prejudice against gay people. For those of you who say you aren't, (because that would be admitting something about yourselves) then why feel so negatively about this issue? Homosexuallity is just wrong? Who says so? The only other answer beside a prejudice view would have to be the granddaddy of all excuses....ding ding ding....religion!

Society in general has always feared the abnormal, the unknown. Som may argue that thats where religion was born. People needed some kind of faith in something to explain the unknown to explain and ease fears. So, your religion says that homosexuality is wrong. Great, good for you. Jesus said it? Where? When? I want to know when Jesus himself said. "Hey, gay people are evil" Im not a scholar of the Bible so someone quote it for me. Or quote me the passage where Jesus's father tells him that. After that, tell me where Jesus condemns the Ancient Greeks and Romans and whatevers because they believed in other things like Zeus, Jupiter, blah blah blah. Where was the sulpher from the skys then?

Am I saying that it is wrong for people to have faith in a religion? No, by all means, have faith in whatever you wish. Just don't be so arrogant in your beliefs that you think that your religion is the overall correct one. I'll remind you catholics that Jesus died about 2000 years ago, and man has been around longer and survived longer than that. May I also add that religion is a big cause of war and suffering on this earth. If you need examples turn on CNN, look up the crusades, peruse the encyclopedia especially the Spanish Inquisition. Its my humble opinion that religion can sometimes be wrong.

So lets face it folks. prejudism lives on strong within a lot of people. Hell, I have my prejudice views on some things. Nazis, the KKK, terrorists. But from what I know, I've never heard of a gay person commiting violence against someone because they were straight...now the other way around.......

We've argued this topic before. What we have accomplished is that most people will not change their view on the subject and probably never will. I'll say this again. Those of you who feel that the bill should have been passed. Why? Law? Religion? or Personal beliefs?

[Czeska]

First of all ::dips a banana in salt just to try it:: ..

Marriage/civil union/ whatever you want to call it, change all the damned semantics. If 2 people make that commitment then it should apply to insurance. Death benefits. EVERYTHING. I don't give a crap whether your plumbing is indoor or outdoor, so to speak.

When I get married to my bf it will be a legal/civil contract. When I get HANDFASTED to him, it will be a spiritual union. I'm doing them seperately, because they mean different things.

[Edited on 7-15-2004 by Czeska]

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
You brought up religion, not I. I can't help it you brought a stick to a tank fight.


You have no idea how much you've been missed, Tsa' ah

[Edaarin]

All you liberals make me sick! This country was founded on white principle, by white people, for white people.

Get the fuck out of our country if you don't conform to the majority religion and views!

Wait...

[Edaarin]

After reading...skimming...alright, skipping...a lot of posts in here, I have reached the conclusion that the people bringing economics into this debate have never taken an accounting class or a concentrated economics class.

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by Edaarin
All you liberals make me sick! This country was founded on white principle, by white people, for white people.

Get the fuck out of our country if you don't conform to the majority religion and views!

Wait...

Holy shit..... for one split second I was like...... HAS HE LOST IT????

ROFL :lol:

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Do tell, I love this argument, point out the instances where gay marriage is forbidden in the bible. Even point out where homosexuality is condemned in the bible.Mnk. Matthew ch. 19, I tried to fix most of the weird formatting.

And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

This next verse or so I also found relevant.

They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?" He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way."

Plz note: Jesus never said gay people were evil. NEITHER DID I. I said marriage was man + woman.

[Czeska]

Ok... From Now On it shall be written that CHRISTIANS must marry as man/woman.

Everyone else do whatever the fuck you want to.

[Silversi]

Originally posted by Czeska
Ok... From Now On it shall be written that CHRISTIANS must marry as man/woman.

Everyone else do whatever the fuck you want to.

:yeahthat: wonderful, now that we have that settled.. the rest of us can get on with our happy lives.

[CrystalTears]

I love how so many people never really live by the bible, but when something comes up that they don't like, all of a sudden the bible is the end-all, be-all for the answers.

C'mon guys. Just admit that you personally don't want to see gay people married for your own personal beliefs and leave religions out of it.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Czeska
Ok... From Now On it shall be written that CHRISTIANS must marry as man/woman.

Everyone else do whatever the fuck you want to. The Lord made everyone, even non-Christians. :)
Originally posted by CrystalTears
I love how so many people never really live by the bible, but when something comes up that they don't like, all of a sudden the bible is the end-all, be-all for the answers.

C'mon guys. Just admit that you personally don't want to see gay people married for your own personal beliefs and leave religions out of it.:cry:

After all those times I said I don't hate gay people. I wish I knew what flailing my arms around looked like, because I'd so be doing it right now.

[DeV]

You know its true Latrin. Though, not in your case. The mere mention of religion when in most cases it seems purely personal is blasphemy. I have such a problem with hypocrites, but I love them anyway. :)

Edited to add the love. :heart:

[Edited on 7-15-2004 by DarkelfVold]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
You know its true Latrin. :P I wish y'all knew me better. Things like this would go a lot smoother.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
After all those times I said I don't hate gay people. I wish I knew what flailing my arms around looked like, because I'd so be doing it right now.

Yes, you don't hate gay people, and you don't need to in order to have personal reasons for not wanting to see them have the same rights and benefits as straight couples. Why is that, without using religious references?

[longshot]

Originally posted by vigilante
Go Senator McCain:

"The constitutional amendment we're debating today strikes me as antithetical in every way to the core philosophy of Republicans," McCain said. "It usurps from the states a fundamental authority they have always possessed and imposes a federal remedy for a problem that most states do not believe confronts them."

Even if you're a redneck repressed homo fag hater like (shit, there's a bunch here...), you should still be against this amendment for the same reason that McCain said.

The Republican party USED to be about fiscal responsibility, states rights, and no bullshit entitlements.

It's not what it is today anymore.

It's so far from what it's supposed to be, it makes me ill.

Anyways, let it be a state issue, like it should be.

[Artha]

The only problem with marriage being a state issue, is that if you get married in one state, you're automatically married in every state.

Originally posted by longshot

Originally posted by vigilante
Go Senator McCain:

"The constitutional amendment we're debating today strikes me as antithetical in every way to the core philosophy of Republicans," McCain said. "It usurps from the states a fundamental authority they have always possessed and imposes a federal remedy for a problem that most states do not believe confronts them."

Even if you're a redneck repressed homo fag hater like (shit, there's a bunch here...), you should still be against this amendment for the same reason that McCain said.

The Republican party USED to be about fiscal responsibility, states rights, and no bullshit entitlements.

It's not what it is today anymore.

It's so far from what it's supposed to be, it makes me ill.

Anyways, let it be a state issue, like it should be.

The problem is, if your married in one of the states that offer Gay marriage all other states have to honor it.

That was why the amendment was brought up.

[longshot]

Okay then.

Honor it.

I really don't get what the big deal is.

I will quote Chris Rock.

"Gay people have the right to be just as miserable as all the other married people in the world"

"Michael Jackson got married. How fucking sacred can it be?"

They have it in Canada.

Despite Jon Ashcroft's wishes, Godzilla did not descend on Vancouver.

I seriously don't get what the problem is with two dudes getting married.

More chicks for me.

[Delirium]

I know this isnt a true representation of the real world,but it seems to me the religious folk are being judged a lot harsher than any minority group around(gay black whatever). I was called for making assumptions in a different thread recently and i admit i was. Arnt you all assuming if someone is against gay marriage they are homophobes? Its a two way street. A lot of you are so anti religious that you demonize the people who are.

PS Im not religious at all and for gay marriage.

[Edaarin]

We all know the Catholic church is infallible, and no Christians have ever done wrong anyway. Child molestation is acceptable, but gay marriage certainly is not. Push the amendment forward!

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
The Lord made everyone, even non-Christians. :)

He make dinosaurs? Just curious.

Originally posted by Edaarin
We all know the Catholic church is infallible, and no Christians have ever done wrong anyway. Child molestation is acceptable, but gay marriage certainly is not. Push the amendment forward!

Im not Catholic, nor do I follow anything to do with the Catholic church.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Yes, you don't hate gay people, and you don't need to in order to have personal reasons for not wanting to see them have the same rights and benefits as straight couples. Why is that, without using religious references? And now, abruptly, I don't want them to have the same rights and benefits? When did that happen? :( I guess you weren't reading the topic the last time we went over this. But I distinctly remember saying that I was:

a) against the amendment
b) for gay people getting all the rights/benefits that marriage gets
c) for giving it a different name, because it's different (the same way I would prefer not to call a red apple a blue apple)

edit: I took a long time to post, and Wezas snuck in a question on me:
Originally posted by Wezas
He make dinosaurs? Just curious. The Lord made everything.

[Edited on 7-15-2004 by Latrinsorm]

[CrystalTears]

I feel that someone is against gay marriage because they have some deep rooted personal beliefs against it.

Personal beliefs should not control how other people should live their lives, especially religious beliefs. I'm religious and I think using religion as an excuse to be against something is a cop-out.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Artha
The only problem with marriage being a state issue, is that if you get married in one state, you're automatically married in every state. I really don't see that as being a problem.

[Edaarin]

Do you believe in evolution Latrin?

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
The Lord made everyone, even non-Christians. :)

He make dinosaurs? Just curious.

Those bones are all just figments of your imagination.:yes:

[Artha]

No, they were put there by Jesus to test your faith. Duh.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
I really don't see that as being a problem. States where it's not allowed probably would. I bet I know what you're thinking, though: "tough for them".
Originally posted by Edaarin
Do you believe in evolution Latrin?I believe it's the best thing science has going to explain life and its workings.

Evolution works just fine, The bible never said how long a day is to god.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Yes, you don't hate gay people, and you don't need to in order to have personal reasons for not wanting to see them have the same rights and benefits as straight couples. Why is that, without using religious references? And now, abruptly, I don't want them to have the same rights and benefits? When did that happen? :( I guess you weren't reading the topic the last time we went over this. But I distinctly remember saying that I was:

a) against the amendment
b) for gay people getting all the rights/benefits that marriage gets
c) for giving it a different name, because it's different (the same way I would prefer not to call a red apple a blue apple)

Then why do you keep on bringing up the fact that you don't hate gay people? If you're against the amendment, why do you keep on bringing that fact up if the opposing argument is not one that you agree with? Sheesh!

Besides you said that marriage is only man and woman, so that may be why I felt that you were not completely FOR gay marriages either. :shrug:

[Edaarin]

Okay William Jennings Bryan.

You also believe the Earth was created 6000 years ago too?

CT, To some people "marriage" is between man and woman. To call a homosexual union a Marriage is wrong.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Then why do you keep on bringing up the fact that you don't hate gay people?Because people accuse me of doing so. :(
Besides you said that marriage is only man and woman, so that may be why I felt that you were not completely FOR gay marriages either. :shrug: You'd know better than me. :D
Originally posted by Edaarin
Okay William Jennings Bryan.

You also believe the Earth was created 6000 years ago too? Are you talking to me or Dave? If me: no, and out of curiousity, who's William Bryan?

[Edaarin]

To most people a century ago, blacks weren't people. That doesn't make it right.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
I really don't see that as being a problem. States where it's not allowed probably would. I bet I know what you're thinking, though: "tough for them".Devil's advocate much.:saint: I'm thinking they need to get their heads out of the sand.

Originally posted by Edaarin
Okay William Jennings Bryan.

You also believe the Earth was created 6000 years ago too?

nope.

Do you know where the material came from for the big bang? How the vital elements for life combined to create you? How the universe came into existence in the first place. Where the universe ends. What is on the other end of a black hole? What is at the bottom of the marians trench? How does your mind really work? What's the meaning of life?

[Edaarin]

In response to Latrin's last post:

Wasn't talking to you, was referring to the response about no length for the 7 days (which is a lame response, what the hell would be the point in making the first 7 days last half a billion years each and then changing the length of time? Especially since the Bible was written by man)?

To answer your question, William Jennings Bryan was a stupid, stupid man when it came to anything even broaching the subject of religion. Look up his name and Cross of Gold for info on what he's famous for.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Dave
CT, To some people "marriage" is between man and woman. To call a homosexual union a Marriage is wrong.

It is wrong for those people. It doesn't make it wrong universally, or that it should stay as law. Laws need to change with time because so does society.

[Czeska]

[deleted cause I took a vow not to harm anyone]

/end getoffmybackwithreligion rant

[Edaarin]

What's the point of asking rhetorical questions like the meaning of life?

I know more about the nervous system and how the mind works than you do, and it's not something that can be explained by religion.

I'm not a physics major, I'm also not well read on the start of the universe.

My question actually had something to do with the matter at hand. Your questions are arbitrary and their answers aren't anywhere near as developed and well proven as evolution.

[longshot]

Originally posted by Dave
Evolution works just fine, The bible never said how long a day is to god.

This is how dumb people rationalize it.

:yes:

Originally posted by Edaarin
In response to Latrin's last post:

Wasn't talking to you, was referring to the response about no length for the 7 days (which is a lame response, what the hell would be the point in making the first 7 days last half a billion years each and then changing the length of time? Especially since the Bible was written by man)?

What you consider a lame response are my beliefs. I'll put it in a simple term for you to understand. Day, night, and time are things we as humans created. We call own way to measure time. I personally do not believe that god is restricted by our way of measurement. It is obvious to me that you are not very familiar with the history of the bible, as well as what is in it. The old testament is a collection of scriptures pieced together by I believe it was the Jews. They chose what would be put in. You are correct in the fact that the bible was written by man, and that man is flawed. The bible is also a collection of stories especially the old testament, and should not always be taken in a literal sense. We are to learn from the stories, and not always take them as literal truth.

I am sorry that you do not agree with my faith, or what I believe, but that does not give you a right to attack me for it. I do not attack you for yours, whatever it may be. I do not tell you your going to hell. So I would expect the same respect for my views, as I offer you for yours.

[Skirmisher]

The problem is when you wish to restrct my right, you ARE attacking me.

[Edaarin]

It IS a lame response. I'm not knocking your religion, I'm skeptical about how seriously the higher ups believe in explanations like that that were concocted as science advanced to try and weakly possibly explain what isn't in the Bible.

Originally posted by Edaarin
What's the point of asking rhetorical questions like the meaning of life?

I know more about the nervous system and how the mind works than you do, and it's not something that can be explained by religion.

I'm not a physics major, I'm also not well read on the start of the universe.

My question actually had something to do with the matter at hand. Your questions are arbitrary and their answers aren't anywhere near as developed and well proven as evolution.

They are all questions that as of yet science, as well as man overall has not yet been able to answer. That is why they were asked. Science is not the answer to everything, and if you look back over the last 100 years you would notice many things taken as fact that have been debunked.

Originally posted by Edaarin
It IS a lame response. I'm not knocking your religion, I'm skeptical about how seriously the higher ups believe in explanations like that that were concocted as science advanced to try and weakly possibly explain what isn't in the Bible.

You do not know the church I belong to, or the faith I practice, so you only speak out of ignorance.

Not every faith teaches the same as the Catholic Church, once you understand that we can talk more on the subject.

[CrystalTears]

Religion isn't the answer to everything either.

[Edaarin]

Further, you're not a little kid anymore. You don't have to accept everything that's spoonfed to you. The stories in the Bible are wonderful examples that illustrate how one might be expected to live a righteous life. But they're just that, stories. Do you really believe that a man was able to make the sun stop revolving around the Earth (geocentric universe, another blip on the map, but eh...)? Or that a man lived in a big fish (guess they didn't know what whales were back then)?

I know I don't believe everything in scriptures or sutras about Buddhism. Did the Buddha really bore a hole into a stone wall after 9 years of staring? Did birds and small animals bring him fruit and drink so he wouldn't starve? Did he really teach the monks at Shaolin how to strengthen body, mind and spirit? Probably not.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Devil's advocate much.:saint: I'm thinking they need to get their heads out of the sand. The problem with that is that it makes a farce out of giving the choice to states.
Originally posted by CrystalTears
Religion isn't the answer to everything either.If by "religion" you mean (in my case) Catholic dogma and teachings, then I agree. However, I do believe Jesus is the answer to everything, so in a sense I also disagree.

Originally posted by Skirmisher
The problem is when you wish to restrct my right, you ARE attacking me.

I do not wish to restrict your right. If you would have read my previous posts you would understand that.

I do not like the word marriage being used for the union of two gay people.
Call it something else and I couldn't care less. But to call it marriage in my eyes is wrong. That is my view. I don't wish to oppress you or anyone else. I hope gay couples can be happy and garner the same benefits as married couples.

Just don't call it marriage and I don't have an issue with it.

[CrystalTears]

Jesus being the answer to everything is a personal belief, not something that is standardized and followed by everyone. It's my belief as well, but I don't impose that on anyone else.

Originally posted by Edaarin
Further, you're not a little kid anymore. You don't have to accept everything that's spoonfed to you. The stories in the Bible are wonderful examples that illustrate how one might be expected to live a righteous life. But they're just that, stories.

You must not have read my post. That is what I said.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Jesus being the answer to everything is a personal belief, not something that is standardized and followed by everyone. It's my belief as well, but I don't impose that on anyone else. Naturally, my response is there's nothing I could do to impose or... un-impose such a thing on anyone. Jesus created me, not the other way around.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Dave
Just don't call it marriage and I don't have an issue with it.

Good grief, you sound like a secretary.

"Call me an administrative assistant, I'm not a secretary."

"But you do the job of a secretary."

"Doesn't matter, I want to be called an administrative assistant."

"Whatever. Doesn't make you more important. Just have a longer title."

The titles are insignificant. If they are both accomplishing the same thing, just call it a marriage. And people wonder why I think that people who believe things like that are closet homophobes.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Devil's advocate much.:saint: I'm thinking they need to get their heads out of the sand. The problem with that is that it makes a farce out of giving the choice to states. By all means continue playing devil's advocate, Latrin. It's a game I wish to play with you no longer. You are making it quite obvious as to how you really feel.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Jesus being the answer to everything is a personal belief, not something that is standardized and followed by everyone. It's my belief as well, but I don't impose that on anyone else. Naturally, my response is there's nothing I could do to impose or... un-impose such a thing on anyone. Jesus created me, not the other way around.

He did? You should have a talk with your parents.

[Edaarin]

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

That was my sig for awhile, I'm just going to bump it here for shits and giggles.

And you're right, I've taken to just skimming the majority of your posts. My mistake.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Edaarin
We all know the Catholic church is infallible, and no Christians have ever done wrong anyway. Child molestation is acceptable, but gay marriage certainly is not. Push the amendment forward!

Bush and most Bible thumpers aren't Catholic.

Edited to add - John Kerry is the Catholic one, at least he claims to be. And no one has ever said child molestation is ok in any way, it's ashame that people joke around like that though.

[Edited on 7-15-2004 by Hulkein]

[Edaarin]

It's an even bigger shame that it happened. And the people that were at the heart of the scandals.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Bush and most Bible thumpers aren't Catholic.

Edited to add - John Kerry is the Catholic one, at least he claims to be. And no one has ever said child molestation is ok in any way, it's ashame that people joke around like that though.

[Edited on 7-15-2004 by Hulkein]

That's odd coming from you Hulk.

You have found it your place to make some quite unflattering jokes of your own on this board.

[Soulpieced]

I have lost many brain cells reading this thread. Nothing like blind faith ruling over reason and scientific facts.

[Hulkein]

Examples of my unflattering jokes?

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
He did? You should have a talk with your parents. My mom would agree, my dad would laugh (or threaten to take my theoretical car). :shrug: No need to check again.

DEV: I thought I knew what you were talking about, but evidently I was mistaken. Plz explain.

[Back]

This shouldn't even be an issue. The nonsense this has created has overshadowed the real issues that need to be addressed.

[Kefka]

It's not the United States of Christianity. When congress tries to make an amendment defining marriage based on their religious beliefs, they're also defining it for every other religion and those who don't have one.

[Hulkein]

Again, as of today, there is a non-secular law that defines marriage as a man and a women. This isn't just a Christian issue.

[CrystalTears]

Right, it's a "times a-changing and the law needs to as well" issue.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Dave
Just don't call it marriage and I don't have an issue with it.

As long as the civil and legal definition of two people joining together in a (theoretically) permanent, loving relationship with the intention of supporting and caring for each other is called 'marriage' then nothing else will do.

Raven

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Right, it's a "times a-changing and the law needs to as well" issue.

Yeah I agree, just saying it's not just a Christianity issue, that's all.

[Hanksbane]

Originally posted by Dave

Originally posted by Edaarin
Okay William Jennings Bryan.

You also believe the Earth was created 6000 years ago too?

nope.

Do you know where the material came from for the big bang? How the vital elements for life combined to create you? How the universe came into existence in the first place. Where the universe ends. What is on the other end of a black hole? What is at the bottom of the marians trench? How does your mind really work? What's the meaning of life?

The answer to Life, the Universe and Everything is 42.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Edaarin
After reading...skimming...alright, skipping...a lot of posts in here, I have reached the conclusion that the people bringing economics into this debate have never taken an accounting class or a concentrated economics class.

I'm just praying you don't mean me.

Jorddyn, CPA

[Shalla]

Originally posted by Kadumi
where do you think their benefits come from?
my taxes.

C'mon Brian, you have to admit.. that was pretty weak. :pinch:

[Shalla]

I've read through some of the posts here.. but personally I think Silversi is right.. It's only logical for Human rights.. to apply to all humans.

That is all.