And one more step closer...

[Ravenstorm]

... to a police state.

http://www.sacurrent.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10705756&BRD=2318&PAG=461&dept_id= 482778&rfi=6

Raven

[Hulkein]

Yeah? If it passed through the house and senate, then I'm assuming it is a good bill. Why would I care if the FBI looks into my financial records?

- I'm not dealing drugs.
- I'm not getting my money in any illegal way and don't plan on it.
- They won't ever look at it because they don't have a reason to. The FBI isn't gonna thumb through these records for fun.

[Drew2]

Wait... you live in San Antonio, Ravenstorm?

[Drew2]

Fuck that... That's like someone walking in my room and nosing around my stuff. Even if I'm not hiding anything, it's none of your goddamn business what I have and where. Financially or physically.

To hell with Bush he needs to die.

because it is against the constitution for them to do so without a warrent.<sp> im to lazy to check

[Tendarian]

I agree with Tayre except for the last sentence. I really like Bush if he didnt trash civil liberties so damn much. The only thing is,the dems dont have a decent candidate to be president either.

[Ravenstorm]

http://buffaloreport.com/021123rohde.html


Raven

edited to add:

No, I don't live in San Antonio. Someone I know got the link from someone he knows who may very well have got it from someone she knows. It's an issue that concerns every American so things like that tend to be spread.

[Edited on 12-29-2003 by Ravenstorm]

[Latrinsorm]

No oversight is a terrible idea. What do they think caused this mess in the first place?

Only 5 more years. Only 5 more years.

[Snapp]

That second link creeps me out Raven. BTW, Tayre is going to "disappear" overnight for that "Bush needs to die" comment.

[Ravenstorm]

No oversight, no warrants, no checks and balances, no accountability, no civil rights... Everything that's made America great.

But hey, it's not like /you/ need to worry about it. It's not /you/ they're coming for so why speak up? Welcome to the land of the free under Bush and Ashcroft.

What do they say about those who fail to learn from history?

Raven

[Hulkein]

For the bill to pass it goes through a systems of checks and balances. It's called the Senate and the House. Plus the fact that Bush won't be in office in 5 more years, that in itself is a check.

blinde trust like that hulkein will turn us into a communist state. The problem is it can easily be abused in the future and 15 years from now after 20 little tweeks to the bill by lawmakers it will be even worse than it already is.

[crazymage]

Originally posted by Tayre
Fuck that... That's like someone walking in my room and nosing around my stuff. Even if I'm not hiding anything, it's none of your goddamn business what I have and where. Financially or physically.

To hell with Bush he needs to die.

I'd watch what you say tayre you can go to jail for saying things like that

[Tendarian]

I thought it was you could get in trouble for saying you're going to do the killing,not just wishing for the killing?

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by The Edine
blinde trust like that hulkein will turn us into a communist state. The problem is it can easily be abused in the future and 15 years from now after 20 little tweeks to the bill by lawmakers it will be even worse than it already is.

I don't have blind trust.. I vote for house and senate representatives knowing they will prevent us from ever becoming anything close to a military state. The system of checks and balances is there and has been working for a few hundred years. I'll trust that.

Hulkein your politicans that you voted for more oft than not vote on public opinion lines, and more oft than not they mess things up big time to trust them is to trust a gun not having a bullet in the chamber when pulling the trigger, oh sure there is a good chance its empty but that off chance that its loaded will really fuck you over.

[Ravenstorm]

The Patriot Act totally removes some of those checks and balances that you have such faith in. That's exactly the problem.

Every single right, every shred of liberty needs to be fought for tooth and nail and should NEVER be allowed to be taken away. But they are being taken away and too many people look at it, shrug, and say something to the effect of:

[/quote]Yeah? If it passed through the house and senate, then I'm assuming it is a good bill. Why would I care if the FBI looks into my financial records?

- I'm not dealing drugs.
- I'm not getting my money in any illegal way and don't plan on it.
- They won't ever look at it because they don't have a reason to. The FBI isn't gonna thumb through these records for fun.[/quote]

The people of Germany said exactly the same thing. I'm not breaking any laws. I'm not Jewish. I'm not a communist. I'm not Muslim, I'm not an immigrant. Surely they will only target those who DESERVE it. So what if their rights are being infringed on. They must have done something to deserve it. Only guilty people get arrested.

That attitude is, I'm sorry to say, gullible and blind and leads to disaster. Of course, I'm sure some will disagree with me. But imagine this:

A person has all their conversations recorded. All their financial documents are seized and looked at under a microscope. One day, without even knowing he was being investigated, he's taken away. He's not charged with anything. He's held in secrecy. Not allowed to talk to anyone. Not his friends, not his family. He's not allowed a lawyer. He's not charged with any crime. He's held by the military in a 'secure' location where no one can find or talk to him. And he's held there for over a year.

Now tell me, what country am I talking about? Iraq or America?

Raven

I do in the future suggest you get your news from less biased news source Ravenstorm. The patriot act II does have checks and balances when it comes to the judicial branch of government. Those detained as enemy combatants are detained for valid reasons. Until I see a case of abuse of the act itself I will agree with the premise of it, I only wish they would allow racial profiling instead of forcing it to be politically correct.

“”Among Patriot II's most worrying provisions are those affecting citizenship. Section 501 of the bill, deceptively titled "Expatriation of Terrorists," would provide for the presumptive denationalization of American citizens who support the activities of any organization that the executive branch has deemed "terrorist.".””


In other words if you are not a natural born citizen they government can remove your citizenship if you support terrorist organizations. But it basically works on this premise; if you support a terrorist organization then you are fighting against this country, hence voluntarily giving up your citizenship. The stripping of citizenship can be fought in the court system though through the appeals process. If for some reason the first judge agrees with the government, then the 7 appeals judges agree and then the 9 Supreme Court judges agree I myself will agree to the charges pressed against the individual. So in essence I agree with the addition to the patriot act.

[Siefer]

I wouldn't worry about this too much. It's when the media becomes state controlled (some may argue it is now) and they start taking away guns from people, that's when it's time to disappear into the hills and launch a protracted guerilla campaign against the government.

[Ravenstorm]

I get my info from numerous sources actually. Including the document itself:

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

However, I just agree with the ones who regard it as one of the top things Bush has done badly. By the time it gets to the appeal process, a person's rights have already been trampled into the dirt. And I'm not just referring to American citizens but rather anyone. That's why they're called human rights instead of American rights. I don't believe those things we take for granted should be applied only to us. If an American deserves them then any human does. Even that Muslim on a work visa.

Raven

[Meos]

die bush die... die die die... bush

[Drew2]

Bush needs to die.

I want to kill Bush.

Two totally different statements. I was joking anyway. Get off it.

[Ravenstorm]

Was drawing a blank on his name or I'd have posted it before...

http://www.chargepadilla.org/

Certainly a slanted site, yes. Feel free to research the case anywhere else but the facts do speak for themselves.

An American citizen. Detained for 18 months. Never once charged with anything. Appeals process? Bullshit. Finally someone managed to get a court to hear it on his behalf and the government is fighting it.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=401761 4

He might very well be guilty. But that's not the point. His story could be the story of a political prisoner in Iran or Korea. Just change the names around.

Charge him. Put him on trial. Let him be convicted if he's guilty. They don't want to do that though.

I wonder if it's because they don't have any real evidence? Call me cynical.

Raven

[Hulkein]

Or because he could post bond and leave... Yeah, I do agree with you Raven that giving up one right only leads to another, and another, and another, but frankly after 9/11 I've looked at it differently. If this keep us safe from having planes fly into nuclear reactors or more skyscrapers, then I'll let it slide and pray that the checks and balances in place (Even if you say they aren't working well) will be enough.

[Drew2]

(00:56:54) LordKranar: Bush needs to die.

I want to kill Bush.
(00:57:00) LordKranar: I have reported this to the FBI

Someone post my bond plz.

[Hulkein]

Rot in hell kthx

[Warriorbird]

Gotta love sheep watching.

[Hulkein]

Ok, Warrior, then what are you doing to make this situation any different? I vote for people I think will do a good job, what do you do that doesn't make you a sheep? Be a liberal? Hit the bricks.

[Parkbandit]

People have been worried that America will turn into a police state or a communist state for years.

Personally, I will forego some of my personal liberties to feel safe in my own country. I will let them search me at the airports.. I will let them take a look at my financial records if they have a reason to.. I will let them do a backround check on me.

I personally have nothing to hide and thus have nothing to worry about.

And I, like Hulkein, believe that the people we voted on to represent our values will not allow their own personal freedoms to be trampled or stomped on. I believe they will do what is right for the country and it's individuals.