quick question

[Ibidmb]

I have a new giant rogue I started about a week ago, think he's 8 atm. And I have a lvl 17 elven ranger I wanna play one of them, but I'm not sure which one would be a better hunter. I like the ranger for the nice spells, but love the possibility of picking on the rogue. I will have either of them do ranged since it seems more cost effective. Should I scrap the rogue, or keep the rogue and scrap the ranger. 17 isn't that hard to get to, so I'm not worried.

Just want some input on what would be better.. both are in CoL, ranger is mastered already.

[Whirlin]

Both should be effective hunters, it comes down to RP/preference/enjoyability.

I'd be a little concerned with racial selection for DEX mod and Ranged AS, but I haven't really mathed out alternatives for additional insight.

[droit]

Both should be effective hunters, it comes down to RP/preference/enjoyability.

I'd be a little concerned with racial selection for DEX mod and Ranged AS, but I haven't really mathed out alternatives for additional insight.

Giant is actually a very viable option for an archer race. The AS loss from generally lower DEX is more than made up for by the ability to use bigger bows faster.

As far as rogue v. ranger goes, both are totally viable. Personally, I find the ranger spell list very fun. Rangers are also able to open the majority of their own boxes later in life with perception, 613, and call lightning. On the other hand, rogues have some great maneuvers to play with.

[jpatter123]

if you are going to make a picking rogue than either are viable until you near endgame then picking has to really become a post cap goal. Since a rogue can get 425 it means he can actually have a higher AS than the ranger too, not including the fact you may have enough points to fully double ambush with the rogue. Unfortunately the non-spell weaving rogue is a very difficult path and just not really possible without giving up picking. As Droit said a giant rogue can shoot a large bow really fast as well, but a ranger has phoen's which should bridge that cap or close to it(cman surge on a giant with wiz strength means 3 second long bow RTs) . One thing, however, your giant will be able to carry your ranger in his pocket and not become encumbered.
So really it comes down to what you want. I can't stand that my rogue has to become a spellweaver so he's relegated to only being a picker and I'm playing my ranger almost exclusively. I'm disappointing my ranger doesn't have ranged AS boosting spells besides 608 (I'm not counting 117 cause rogues get it too). Rangers get some cool tricks like animal companion and ranger resistance to armor, but get no ranger guild skills. Rogues also get a greater list of Cmans. I think if I hadn't played a rogue for 10 years and I was just starting I'd go rogue over ranger, but that is just me. I'd read everything you could and try to see what class fits you best and roll with it. They are both completely viable, just training becomes more forced on the rogue towards the end.

[DaCapn]

if you are going to make a picking rogue than either are viable until you near endgame then picking has to really become a post cap goal. Since a rogue can get 425 it means he can actually have a higher AS than the ranger too, not including the fact you may have enough points to fully double ambush with the rogue. Unfortunately the non-spell weaving rogue is a very difficult path and just not really possible without giving up picking. As Droit said a giant rogue can shoot a large bow really fast as well, but a ranger has phoen's which should bridge that cap or close to it(cman surge on a giant with wiz strength means 3 second long bow RTs) . One thing, however, your giant will be able to carry your ranger in his pocket and not become encumbered.
So really it comes down to what you want. I can't stand that my rogue has to become a spellweaver so he's relegated to only being a picker and I'm playing my ranger almost exclusively. I'm disappointing my ranger doesn't have ranged AS boosting spells besides 608 (I'm not counting 117 cause rogues get it too). Rangers get some cool tricks like animal companion and ranger resistance to armor, but get no ranger guild skills. Rogues also get a greater list of Cmans. I think if I hadn't played a rogue for 10 years and I was just starting I'd go rogue over ranger, but that is just me. I'd read everything you could and try to see what class fits you best and roll with it. They are both completely viable, just training becomes more forced on the rogue towards the end.

I disagree with some of your rogue viability comments. Open aiming ranged rogues in full plate is a VERY common build. You don't have to sacrifice lockpicking with any kind of ranged rogue build. I've got a 3x hide, 410 casting, rogue in doubles that's a 2x picker. 2x+ hide, full plate, and 2x picking would definitely be possible.

The entire glory of rogues is that there are so many variations to training. As long as you have a few skills set right, you're totally viable.

[magiceatsyou]

I know you'd have to give up the picking boxes but if you want to play your ranger and have the skills of a rogue, I have the perfect build. Keiiko uses TWC and she uses cmans. It's definitely the best of both worlds.

[jpatter123]

I disagree with some of your rogue viability comments. Open aiming ranged rogues in full plate is a VERY common build. You don't have to sacrifice lockpicking with any kind of ranged rogue build. I've got a 3x hide, 410 casting, rogue in doubles that's a 2x picker. 2x+ hide, full plate, and 2x picking would definitely be possible.

The entire glory of rogues is that there are so many variations to training. As long as you have a few skills set right, you're totally viable.

2x picking is not enough for capped areas. Since Dan got his rogue I've been playing with the numbers on my rogue and can't get the build that I want. I could drop picking and use wedges and just keep disarm, but still points get very thin and I wouldn't be able to disarm all boxes. The only kicker to this is not knowing exactly how much spell ranks in minor elemental play in the disarm/pick formulas. There is the chance that ranks play such a major role that I could be able to pick higher than I do now even after losing ranks. And my rogue gets absolutely raped in the ducts right now.

[jpatter123]

There is the chance that ranks play such a major role that I could be able to pick higher than I do now even after losing ranks.

so I decided to fixskill cause this question has been driving me nuts. I went from somewhere between 2.5x to tripled(closer to tripled) with spell known to 404, to doubled with spell known to 430. My max lock before was -1090 and my max lock now is -935 to -940. So the extra 26 spell ranks looks to have made up for about 10-15 of those picking ranks I lost. I haven't tried traps yet.

[DaCapn]

2x picking is not enough for capped areas. Since Dan got his rogue I've been playing with the numbers on my rogue and can't get the build that I want. I could drop picking and use wedges and just keep disarm, but still points get very thin and I wouldn't be able to disarm all boxes. The only kicker to this is not knowing exactly how much spell ranks in minor elemental play in the disarm/pick formulas. There is the chance that ranks play such a major role that I could be able to pick higher than I do now even after losing ranks. And my rogue gets absolutely raped in the ducts right now.

2x picking skills is perfectly acceptable through level 70 roughly (100% pickable like-level) and it's still pretty functional near cap. Every so often I have a rift box that causes me trouble but capped Grimswarm boxes have been fine since level 70-80 roughly. Defintiely won't be 100% effective, though, yeah.

The lockpicks script on the lich repo is quite accurate in determining the contribution of 403/404. I've found it to be accurate to within a trap/lock difficulty of ~10 as I was training from 411 to 419, levels 80ish to cap.

[Ibidmb]

Yea, so far I got him set up stat wise to fire a longbow in 3. Not worrying about aiming to much.. git a rank of mobility.. cmans and bows don't really go together. Unless you're dumb enough to try to use mfail.

So, I know people say to get spells as a rogue, I had I think 52/39 Tps to start with.. how can you get spells with that, and still train 2x in armor,weapons,pf,dodge,perception,ambush and then other skills? Spells just seem so far off to me as a square. What level should I have certainspells by? Is there a goal in mind? Have 410 by 30? Or later than that?

[jpatter123]

I got to level 80 fine with no spells. I got up to 404 just for lock/trap lore. 101,103, 107, 401,406, and 414 are pretty easily gotten from other people. 425, 430, and 120 are the big 3. One thing that becomes a problem is areas with spell burst making it hard to wear spells from others. Spell training cost is very high so figure 1 spell every 3 levels.

[DaCapn]

Yea, so far I got him set up stat wise to fire a longbow in 3. Not worrying about aiming to much.. git a rank of mobility.. cmans and bows don't really go together. Unless you're dumb enough to try to use mfail.

So, I know people say to get spells as a rogue, I had I think 52/39 Tps to start with.. how can you get spells with that, and still train 2x in armor,weapons,pf,dodge,perception,ambush and then other skills? Spells just seem so far off to me as a square. What level should I have certainspells by? Is there a goal in mind? Have 410 by 30? Or later than that?

I'm a little confused because it sounds like you're giving advice (in your own thread asking for advice) then turning around and asking "how do I save up TPs?"

To be perfectly honest, long-term training considerations are totally individual. 410 is possible mid-early 30s for some builds with some sacrifices. Play with the trainer spreadsheet and see what sort of things look good to you. Play the game yourself and see what you need. Hearing what other people prefer isn't necessarily going to help you.

[jpatter123]

. Hearing what other people prefer isn't necessarily going to help you.

sage advice.

[Ibidmb]

Yea, I think I'm gonna worry about spells later on in life.. gonna play the rogue, since the guild skills are more useful, and I can rp the giant more to my liking. Plus, being able to carry a wagon is appealing. I've never messed with the trainer spread sheet, but I've usually only dabbled in certain areas, generally play it pretty safe on training. I'll see what I can get to spell wise around 30 and if I can get 410 I will. Just as good crowd control..

Also is there any reason beyond FoF to train MoC as an archer?

[JustDan]

Also is there any reason beyond FoF to train MoC as an archer?

Negatory. There's also a huge thread in the Rogues folder dealing with open archery as a rogue that you might want to check out.

[Ibidmb]

Thanks everyone for the info.

[Kitsun]

When I had my rogue around level 60 to 80, I was able to use Stealth Archery Sniping while keeping 3x in the picking skills and some spells as well. You can save a lot of points on Armor Use (I stuck to Torso chain), CM (You need nothing for set ups with archery).

Training looks like:
35-40 Armor Use
2x Ranged
2x Ambush
3x Hide/Stalk
1x Physical Fitness
20 ranks of CM
3x Pick
3x Disarm
2x Perception
Xx Spell ranks

That worked great until OTF and the Ducts.

[Ibidmb]

Yea, I don't think I'm gonna go past 50 armor ranks. Might just wear some padded brig. right now, I'm 2x pf.. think I might hit the Hp threshhold, and then move to 1x.

[Ibidmb]

rep tossed out, thanks everyone.