Ranged Bard advice?

[Valyss]

Hi everyone! I'm toying with creating a archer bard as an alt, and had a couple questions.

* Is this path still viable? It certainly seems like it could be (although maybe not right out of the gate)
* How does this look for a training path:

1x armor
.25x CM (later for disarm defense)
2x ranged weapons
1x physical fitness
1x dodging
1x harness power
1x mental mana control (to 30 ranks)
1x spells
1x lores (extra points go here)
2x perception
.25x swimming/climbing as available

it feels very tight at 35/52. is 1x lores not doable from the jump? or should I dump CM? ahhh! there's so much to train in! not like being a warrior :)

* I'm still thinking I would go pure combat swinging a claid or lance for the first 30 days. I've been able to hit high teens/low twenties on characters before in the first 30. is this high enough to switch over to ranged?

* Race: I'm thinking elf for the good dex and inf bonuses. I'd love to go halfling or gnome, but it seems like the negative strength bonus would make it too tough to overcome the shooting RT of a longbow.

* How does this build work out later in the game? Does having a high ranged AS + song of tonis + good defense work?

Thanks in advance for the input!

[Merala]

Far as I know, only benefit for ranged cmans is Mfire and defense against maneuvers. Don't trust me though, I'm often wrong/misinformed!

[Valyss]

possibly feint, sweep, or cheapshots used offensively. and for defense against disarm, feint, etc later on. but i agree, this seems like a good place to save some points until later

[Drakefang]

Drop the CM to .25x for now, spread the points out where you need them. Focus on disarm so you don't lose your bow.

It's an extremely viable and effective path to take as a bard. Your choice of race is logical and probably offers the most mechanical benefit, except perhaps RT...you need a decent str to drop your RT on a longbow. Some say open archery needs no CM, but I prefer to have a few ranks of disarm, at least. I think the ambush is something that can wait, as you don't really need the AS that badly. I started it near cap and finished it post cap. I'd up the lores to 1.25x, so you can get some telepathy lore in there as well as the air lore for tonis. You might consider some MoC at some point for FoF. Besides that, more climb/swim will be needed at some point. Just keep that in mind and stop MMC around 30 ranks unless you really feel you need more mana recovery.

[Tenlaar]

I would suggest waiting to train in CM for a while, or at the least dropping it to .25x as Galenok said, and definitely hold off on ambush until much later. By the time you switch to using a bow you should have plenty of mana to 1005 + pew pew everything you come across in a hunt, it actually becomes very easy for a while. In the lower level range many if not most things will go from sleeping to stunned to dead.

An archer is the only type of bard that I think has a good reason to try to push the MnE a little at lower levels. Unless you have multiple accounts or more patience than I do, being able to eblade your own arrows is a huge advantage.

It can be made to work with any race, but I personally think giantman wins the archery competition hands down. The combo of being able to achieve a 3 second longbow RT without any outside source, a lot more HP, more stamina, and being able to carry more loot outweigh the 10 AS, 10 CS, and 5 inf bonus that an elf will have. Having a constant 3 second longbow RT also means that you only need 30 ranks of air lore instead of 75 for tonis to bring it down to 1, freeing you up for more telepathy/manipulation lore. For any other race, you will have to counter each of these things in some way.

[Suppressed Poet]

Just my 2 cents: I am sword and board and at close to 50 still haven't trained in MMC. I know it helps a tiny bit with mana recovery and shouts with 1040, but I haven't had a reason to justify the cost.

If it were me I'd keep the ambush and skip the MMC, but that is just my opinion. You can do that or wait on ambush, put off MMC, drop CMAN to .25x, and pickup more telepathy ranks. Telepathy is extremely helpful especially for lower levels.

[Tenlaar]

If it were me I'd keep the ambush and skip the MMC, but that is just my opinion.

Fully 2x at cap, ambush only adds 40 AS. 1x ambush will not add a single point of AS until, what, level 44? Whereas MMC will at least help you get more mana when using unraveling. I wouldn't make a bard with less than 30 ranks of MMC.

[DaCapn]

Mfire is among the most useless things in GS (502 is less stupid than mfire). I don't really see a good reason to get CMs to use offensively if you have access to spell circles with decent disablers (1005 and 410). Get a few defensively if you like, but there's not a lot of value to be had training in CM otherwise.

If you play a small race, you're going to need 100 STR, 509, and a little enhancive boost to minimize the RT in the open. Giantman definitely wins out here.

Before you start training in perception and ambush, read the ranged AS formula. Also, along those lines, note that 4 ambush ranks yield +1 AS and that the cost is 4/4. Note that telepathy ranks cost 0/8 and grant AS through 1007 (among with many other crucial benefits for physical bards). There's a number of ways to boost AS with bards and I'd focus on those with a bard over ambush. I encourage you to compute how much AS you can get at cap if you're fully trained in ambush.

[DaCapn]

Fully 2x at cap, ambush only adds 40 AS. 1x ambush will not add a single point of AS until, what, level 44? Whereas MMC will at least help you get more mana when using unraveling. I wouldn't make a bard with less than 30 ranks of MMC.

And bards can't even 2x.

[Tenlaar]

Exactly, I can't see ambush as anything but completely wasted TP until at or very near cap.

[Valyss]

Ok here's what I've gathered so far:

* going to hold off on ambush until around cap
* going to do CM in a concerted way when I need it. I can't think of anything that disarms until 40ish (the warriors in feythyl bog and spectral lords)
* going to sock extra points into telepathy and spells. I'll get the first few tiers of AS bonus from Kai, then chase 425 ASAP

More questions:

* society? My warrior is gos and I love it. Is the new voln worth it? At which is it worth slowing leveling to go after a society? I only ask because I want to get as high as possible in the first 30 because I hear ranged is tough going at first.
* for archery rt reduction, I know it's 10 str bonus per second. Does this round up or down? Ie does 25 str result in 2s or 3s reduction? I looked all over for this and couldn't find it.
* when does aiming for the eyes from the open start working reliably?

Thanks do much!!

[Buckwheet]

I would do GoS for any physical damage class.

[DaCapn]

Did you crunch out how much AS you can get from ambush ranks at cap?

GoS for sure. There's a few things that come to mind, specifically: if you have a rank 2 head wound, not only can you not cast spells, but you can't renew your songs the next time they're up for renewal (sigil of determination), similar reason for ranged weapons, and you can crit weight your arrows against hated foes. Also, since you're not going to be using stamina, you can put a lot of that towards mana generation.

The strength bonus computation truncates (a total bonus of 9 gives 0 reduction).

[Valyss]

ambush at cap is (101 - 40) / 4 = 15.25 (not sure if it rounds up or down). it's sounding more and more like a post-cap goal at 400ptp/400mtp total

[Tenlaar]

I would go with GoS as well. Being able to ignore head/neck wounds for songs/spells and arm/hand wounds for firing is fantastic, 3 second herbs (1 second with tonis and 30 ranks air lore), weighting and padding and mana.

I'm not sure exactly when you will start hitting eyes really reliably, but I do know that you won't need to bother aiming for long enough that when you want to start doing it you should be able to. I'm thinking the 30-40 range, maybe?

[DaCapn]

ambush at cap is (101 - 40) / 4 = 15.25 (not sure if it rounds up or down). it's sounding more and more like a post-cap goal at 400ptp/400mtp total

Yeah, I file it under "not a goal" personally. It takes 80 ranks before the AS/TP ratio gets better than either MnE (425) or telepathy lore (1007). Both MnE and telepathy lore have other major benefits so it's no contest to me. Unless you already have 101 ranks of lore and 75 ranks MnE, there's pretty much no reason to train in ambush.

[Drakefang]

Exactly, I can't see ambush as anything but completely wasted TP until at or very near cap.

That's why I advised against it til then. ;)

Also, the MMC comment isn't completely off base. You don't need the MMC, except to share with empaths, bards and maybe random monks, until you really get into using 1035. That means you don't need to hit 24 ranks of MMC until about level 60 or 65 (Don't race to it, there's no need. Get 425, get 1035, get 430). Things you'll need sooner are 20-40 ranks of climb then more swim, telepathy lore to boost renewal times and AS, the air lore and 2x perception (which is as much for aiming as the AS it provides).

[Drakefang]

Did you crunch out how much AS you can get from ambush ranks at cap?

GoS for sure. There's a few things that come to mind, specifically: if you have a rank 2 head wound, not only can you not cast spells, but you can't renew your songs the next time they're up for renewal (sigil of determination), similar reason for ranged weapons, and you can crit weight your arrows against hated foes. Also, since you're not going to be using stamina, you can put a lot of that towards mana generation.

The strength bonus computation truncates (a total bonus of 9 gives 0 reduction).

Not use stamina in GoS? Shew, at cap I have a hard time keeping my stamina over half full and that's only with minimal usage of sigil of power. I run about 5 sigils constantly of 6 or 7 I could. You will use stamina or there's no point being in GoS in the first place. May as well go CoL. My ranged giantman bard is in GoS, it works nicely. If it weren't for the warcamps, though, I wouldn't be all that impressed with it over CoL. Sigil of determination, I need to remember that one.

Can't think of much to add. I actually like the new Voln. I like the powers and abilities. I hate to have to hunt undead with a bow. If I was you, I would start your society as early as possible. It doesn't slow you significantly, you can master CoL early then swap to GoS later, as I did...or just go GoS. You could have CoL mastered in a week in between bounties and such. Personally, I wouldn't wait, it's too much of a boost whatever society you choose.

[Drakefang]

ambush at cap is (101 - 40) / 4 = 15.25 (not sure if it rounds up or down). it's sounding more and more like a post-cap goal at 400ptp/400mtp total

And for 15 AS, I may drop all of it with a fixskill. I knew it was a small amount but three enchants worth? There's lots of ways to make up for 15AS. This is definitely a post cap goal, and I'm not even sure it's an early post cap goal.

[Drakefang]

I would go with GoS as well. Being able to ignore head/neck wounds for songs/spells and arm/hand wounds for firing is fantastic, 3 second herbs (1 second with tonis and 30 ranks air lore), weighting and padding and mana.

I'm not sure exactly when you will start hitting eyes really reliably, but I do know that you won't need to bother aiming for long enough that when you want to start doing it you should be able to. I'm thinking the 30-40 range, maybe?

I'd say you can start aiming for legs, if you wish, around level 20-25. Head at level 30-35 and eyes at 40+.

[Tenlaar]

Also, the MMC comment isn't completely off base. You don't need the MMC, except to share with empaths, bards and maybe random monks, until you really get into using 1035. That means you don't need to hit 24 ranks of MMC until about level 60 or 65 (Don't race to it, there's no need. Get 425, get 1035, get 430). Things you'll need sooner are 20-40 ranks of climb then more swim, telepathy lore to boost renewal times and AS, the air lore and 2x perception (which is as much for aiming as the AS it provides).

Yeah, it's not completely off base, just making sure Valyss sees both sides of it. I like to get the MMC earlier for draining wands when I need a little mana boost during hunts and the extra few mana per pulse to offset renewal costs a bit, but it's definitely personal preference. I agree it's not something you really need to have.

[Tenlaar]

I'd say you can start aiming for legs, if you wish, around level 20-25. Head at level 30-35 and eyes at 40+.

That sounds about right. Also, it's been a while, but I seem to recall that aiming for the back can be fairly effective at the earlier levels as well. Easy to hit and a decent chance of a knockdown.

[Suppressed Poet]

Good point there. I thought ambush also helped with open aiming but wrong there. I also never use unravel so MMC is less useful for me. There are several other options for returning chunks on mana and increasing mana recovery. All in all, I think the points saved for skipping ambush and MMC (should you choose) would be better with as much telepathy as you can get. The longer songs times, benefit to 1007, benefit to length of Tonis, and 1040..make it a very attractive lore.

[Valyss]

duly noted!

sounds like the extra points will go into lores and spells. between the two, what kind of balance should i go for? how quickly should i expect to hit 425, and where do i stop in the bard circle? what are the major tiers of lores i should push hard for (between telepathy and air)?

[Drakefang]

Yeah, it's not completely off base, just making sure Valyss sees both sides of it. I like to get the MMC earlier for draining wands when I need a little mana boost during hunts and the extra few mana per pulse to offset renewal costs a bit, but it's definitely personal preference. I agree it's not something you really need to have.

Are you an archer? I suppose if you use 1005 and 410 a lot...maybe. If you're level 20 or 22 and trying to run 1019, 1014, 1010, 1007, 1006 and 1003, yeah but that's too soon to have all those, IMO. Now, if you're level 40 and singing 1009, 1012 and 1014, I can see why you're needing to drain wands or critters. I just don't find it necessary because archers can't sing their weapons and before level 50 or 60 it's just not worth singing your armor over a 5x chain shirt or something....well, I just don't see the mana consumption. How bad is a GoS mana drain before level 50?

[Drakefang]

duly noted!

sounds like the extra points will go into lores and spells. between the two, what kind of balance should i go for? how quickly should i expect to hit 425, and where do i stop in the bard circle? what are the major tiers of lores i should push hard for (between telepathy and air)?

I wouldn't stretch to go over 1x spells as a bard, but if you were to end up around 1.2x per level you'd be in a strong place. Lores, hrmmm, thinking 36 ranks telepathy and 75 air lore. Those are good plateaus to aim for. This link will show you why if you scroll down to the bardsongs to check how lores influence them: Lore Benefits (http://carabele.com/odds/LoreBenefits.htm)

[DaCapn]

Not use stamina in GoS? Shew, at cap I have a hard time keeping my stamina over half full and that's only with minimal usage of sigil of power. I run about 5 sigils constantly of 6 or 7 I could. You will use stamina or there's no point being in GoS in the first place. May as well go CoL. My ranged giantman bard is in GoS, it works nicely. If it weren't for the warcamps, though, I wouldn't be all that impressed with it over CoL. Sigil of determination, I need to remember that one.

I meant that there wouldn't be stamina going towards CMs so yeah, same page.


Can't think of much to add. I actually like the new Voln. I like the powers and abilities. I hate to have to hunt undead with a bow. If I was you, I would start your society as early as possible. It doesn't slow you significantly, you can master CoL early then swap to GoS later, as I did...or just go GoS. You could have CoL mastered in a week in between bounties and such. Personally, I wouldn't wait, it's too much of a boost whatever society you choose.

It's always possible to level a ways before choosing a society. I leveled my bard into the 40s without joining a society.

[Drakefang]

It's always possible to level a ways before choosing a society. I leveled my bard into the 40s without joining a society.

It's possible to cap without one. I wouldn't recommend it. However, that just shows you can start whenever you find yourself comfortable to gain a society's benefits.

[Valyss]

i'm going to go straight for GoS and not pick up CoL. warcamps really early on should be a cakewalk with a full set of spells, especially inside the first 30 days when my bard is fully set up for lance combat. i'll report back on how this goes

EDIT: also the new premium teleporter changes should make this really quick to burn through

[Tenlaar]

Are you an archer? I suppose if you use 1005 and 410 a lot...maybe. If you're level 20 or 22 and trying to run 1019, 1014, 1010, 1007, 1006 and 1003, yeah but that's too soon to have all those, IMO. Now, if you're level 40 and singing 1009, 1012 and 1014, I can see why you're needing to drain wands or critters. I just don't find it necessary because archers can't sing their weapons and before level 50 or 60 it's just not worth singing your armor over a 5x chain shirt or something....well, I just don't see the mana consumption. How bad is a GoS mana drain before level 50?

I'm not playing at the moment, but yes, I have played a bard archer as well as sword and board, TWC, and pure. Mine was a lockpicking bard archer, actually - talk about hell on the TPs. I just ran 1003, 1007, 1010, and threw 1006 in when applicable. I do like to make heavy use of 1005, 410, and even 1008 (when I could comfortably ward enemies and 1005 didn't land). I'm not saying that I ran out of mana every hunt, I simply like having the ability to get the mana when I need it. String of bad luck with casts, want to keep hunting until I can't carry another box, starting a hunt belled, want to spell up and go hunting immediately, spelling up and getting songs going to be ready to head out as soon as I can after a death, sharing while group hunting, so on and so forth.

I always strove for self sufficiency and rarely got spell ups from other people, so I might just be coming from a different place than most on this - uphunting self spelled it was very important for me to keep things disabled as much as possible.

[Ibidmb]

I actually played my warrior as an 'adventure seeker' so I decided I would join whatever society was offered to me first by an NPC. Just so happens it was the recruiter.

[Jeril]

I actually played my warrior as an 'adventure seeker' so I decided I would join whatever society was offered to me first by an NPC. Just so happens it was the recruiter.

If you did this with every character you play, most of them would end up in GoS. There is a recruiter in every town, they tend to hang out around the center of town more often and seem to be quicker to approach people with invitations to join their cause.