Playershop permits - Ideas and gripes - X-post from the officials

[JustDan]

I'm wondering if there's any sort of effort being put towards re-opening the system in some form or fashion. I've been desperately looking for an Illistim playershop for some time now, with zero luck. As more and more players phase out, their shops go inactive, and it's one more lost opportunity.

I realize that the system was formerly open to vast exploitation, and that's why the freeze went into place, but it would seem like a fairly straightforward fix, in any number of ways.

My favorite idea:

1) Real Estate Auctions! Have a GM-run merchant show up once every few months and raffle/auction/spin for X number of shop permits. Done and done.

1A) As a rider to the previous comment, go all Storage Wars on it. When a shop goes "inactive", don't put the stuff in a box that'll never get claimed and close the shop down... put it up for auction, goods intact (and without a name on the box or shop, to prevent people using the playershops website to know what the contents of the box already were).

Other quick-shot ideas:

a) Requiring X number of existing shop owners in your town to approve you (using the mechanics of a Guild master from one of the profession guilds) before you're eligible for a permit

b) Having the NPC set to randomly have permits available, a few a month, and inquiring means you can't inquire again for 48 hours

c) Release X number of shop permits into the treasure hopper per month

d) Put shop permits in the AG rewards system, for 300k BPs, non-transferrable.

e) Use the "X item just fell out of the sky" system at odd hours on-node. First person to grab it gets the chance at a playershop.

These are literally off the top of my head. There has to be an easy way to get the system working again, instead of letting it die a long, slow, painful death. Is there any movement or effort being put towards getting the system up and running in some fashion?

[Mogonis]

Critters dropping shop permits makes no sense. Therefore, brilliant!

[JustDan]

Critters dropping shop permits makes no sense. Therefore, brilliant!

If I had put in the post on the officials that I didn't give a shit if Felthrop wiped his ass with one and discarded it into Town Square Central, they'd have yanked the post (probably).

[Buckwheet]

So after one goes inactive the shop spot is not put back up for sale again?

[JustDan]

So after one goes inactive the shop spot is not put back up for sale again?

Correct. Zero permits are issued, regardless of how many go inactive/get repossessed, etc etc etc. The only way to get one (for multiple years now) is through resale.

[Fulmen]

I actually have a permit for the Landing, but there's no room to claim a shop. They briefly released a wave of permits there, a few years ago. It might have been an error.

[Wrathbringer]

Correct. Zero permits are issued, regardless of how many go inactive/get repossessed, etc etc etc. The only way to get one (for multiple years now) is through resale.

I guess four years ago or so I bought three or four Landing shops from Faiyth for like 6m each. These days they're bringing 20m each, unaltered. They need to fix this. Any idea on the current shop numbers as far as active vs. repossessed?

[JustDan]

I guess four years ago or so I bought three or four Landing shops from Faiyth for like 6m each. These days they're bringing 20m each, unaltered. They need to fix this. Any idea on the current shop numbers as far as active vs. repossessed?

I have no idea, and there's no way TO know. When they were first released, each room had X number of potential shops. These days, if a shop is repossessed, that spot gets vacated, but no accompanying slot for a new shop crops up in it's place. It's literally a dead system, and has been for a long time now. And it really does seem like it'd be a ridiculously easy fix, from this side of the equation. It seems like it'd take someone an afternoon to get it up and running, at least in some fashion.

[Buckwheet]

What was the exploit, and why did it cause the whole system to shut down?

[Wrathbringer]

I have no idea, and there's no way TO know. When they were first released, each room had X number of potential shops. These days, if a shop is repossessed, that spot gets vacated, but no accompanying slot for a new shop crops up in it's place. It's literally a dead system, and has been for a long time now. And it really does seem like it'd be a ridiculously easy fix, from this side of the equation. It seems like it'd take someone an afternoon to get it up and running, at least in some fashion.

Sleken's reply on the officials at least states that it's a priority. So... there's that... :jerkit:

[Wrathbringer]

What was the exploit, and why did it cause the whole system to shut down?

I think CRB knows...

[Buckwheet]

I know of the roll back and stuff that happened three or so years ago. But there was no mention it was an exploit.

[Archigeek]

CRB exposed the exploit. You can find a copy of his post, (which was pulled) on his website.

[Buckwheet]

Interesting "exploit".

[crb]

http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2008/12/06/read-what-simu-doesnt-want-you-to-know/

I figured it out when late one night I happened to waltz into the deed room coincidentially, and found a crowd of people (okay, like 2 or 3, but it is a weird room to be resting in), who were all unresponsive. I thought "this is strange, why would everyone come at this weird time in the middle of the night?" I watched them come alive. Considering the day and time being common cronjob times (regular computer tasks on a *nix system) I figured simu was probably doing something the equivalent of.

Months passed from when I first informed simu to when they took action (because I made the exploit public). I tried dragging people off, that worked, at first, I think one even reported me for it.

If you go back through forum logs here and look at who was regularly selling shops the first week of the month a few years ago, you'll know who was doing the exploiting.

Consequently at the time I gave them options like Dan did above, auctions and the like. That was how long ago?

The big question is, how did the cheaters figure it out. Did they guess on it? Stumble on it? Or get some inside information from a buddy?

[JustDan]

Sleken's reply on the officials at least states that it's a priority. So... there's that... :jerkit:

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Game%20Design%20Discussions/Player-Run%20Shops/view/213


<<I'm wondering if there's any sort of effort being put towards re-opening the system in some form or fashion. I've been desperately looking for an Illistim playershop for some time now, with zero luck. As more and more players phase out, their shops go inactive, and it's one more lost opportunity.

I realize that the system was formerly open to vast exploitation, and that's why the freeze went into place, but it would seem like a fairly straightforward fix, in any number of ways.>>

Yes, there is. I don't want to give a time frame but it is a priority of the current system owner.

And no, that's not the reason we froze rent. And nothing has been straightforward. ;)

SGM Sleken

They're working on it, it's a priority of the person whose job it is to handle that sort of thing. All is right with the world.

[Ardwen]

Monks were a priority of the 457 people that worked on them too.....

[Some Rogue]

They didn't tell you that the person responsible has been on an indefinite leave for the last two years....

[Androidpk]

They didn't tell you that the person responsible has been on an indefinite leave for the last two years....

Because he/she died.

[Allereli]

I'm pretty sure Varulv owns the system now (based on the fact that he helped me with a recent issue). I do believe he's actively working on it, and also that it's even more screwed up than previously thought.

[JustDan]

They didn't tell you that the person responsible has been on an indefinite leave for the last two years....


Monks were a priority of the 457 people that worked on them too.....

Dammit, I forgot to use my sarcasm font again.

An acknowledgement from them is better than nothing, and I'll take it the way I take all comments of it's ilk:

We hear you, but you're unaware of the whole picture. We're working with limited unpaid staff, on a draconian system which a select few know how to manipulate win any success. We have a list of thoroughly broken items that is longer than the full extrapolation of pi. We'd love to wave a magic wand and fix your issue, but this house of cards is precarious at best, and we've got no clue when we might be able to get around to thinking about scheduling a time to talk with a guy to set up a meeting to discuss ideas on how this could theoretically be fixed at some point in the future. We do WANT to fix it, but can't give you anything remotely close to a timeline.

[Liagala]

We hear you, but you're unaware of the whole picture. We're working with limited unpaid staff, on a draconian system which a select few know how to manipulate win any success. We have a list of thoroughly broken items that is longer than the full extrapolation of pi. We'd love to wave a magic wand and fix your issue, but this house of cards is precarious at best, and we've got no clue when we might be able to get around to thinking about scheduling a time to talk with a guy to set up a meeting to discuss ideas on how this could theoretically be fixed at some point in the future. We do WANT to fix it, but can't give you anything remotely close to a timeline.
That is the most accurate portrayal of Simu's problem-solving methods that I have ever read. +1 internets to you sir.

[Tgo01]

http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2008/12/06/read-what-simu-doesnt-want-you-to-know/

I just read a few comments on that page but it's hilarious how most of them were "DUDE! Leave poor Simu alone, YOU were wrong for reporting this on the officials!"

Ah yes, Simutronics fanboys.

[Tgo01]

We hear you, but you're unaware of the whole picture. We're working with limited unpaid staff, on a draconian system which a select few know how to manipulate win any success. We have a list of thoroughly broken items that is longer than the full extrapolation of pi. We'd love to wave a magic wand and fix your issue, but this house of cards is precarious at best, and we've got no clue when we might be able to get around to thinking about scheduling a time to talk with a guy to set up a meeting to discuss ideas on how this could theoretically be fixed at some point in the future. We do WANT to fix it, but can't give you anything remotely close to a timeline.

I laughed. The bolded part reminded me of one time the forums GM or whateverthefuck her title was made some comment about how every time a GM has to hide a post or warn a user for breaking a rule that the GM who did the hiding/warning has to email this lady the warning and the post in question that was hidden/warned and the lady then has to save a copy of it and file it in like 10 different places.

I was thinking to myself really? Simutronics actually pays (HAHA) people to do all of that work for a forum that a couple of hundred people use when most free forum software probably automate that entire process? I made some comment about why there was so much "red tape" involved with Simutroncis and whatever her name gave me an attitude. "Why do YOU care why I have to do it? The point is I HAVE TO DO IT!" Yeah uh, that's why I referred to it as red tape, you can't even tell me why you're doing all of this work. At this point I'm just talking to myself now so yeah. Think I'll go get a Pepsi.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Dammit, I forgot to use my sarcasm font again.

An acknowledgement from them is better than nothing, and I'll take it the way I take all comments of it's ilk:

We hear you, but you're unaware of the whole picture. We're working with limited unpaid staff, on a draconian system which a select few know how to manipulate win any success. We have a list of thoroughly broken items that is longer than the full extrapolation of pi. We'd love to wave a magic wand and fix your issue, but this house of cards is precarious at best, and we've got no clue when we might be able to get around to thinking about scheduling a time to talk with a guy to set up a meeting to discuss ideas on how this could theoretically be fixed at some point in the future. We do WANT to fix it, but can't give you anything remotely close to a timeline.

This would require Simu to give a fuck.

[Bobmuhthol]

b) Having the NPC set to randomly have permits available, a few a month, and inquiring means you can't inquire again for 48 hours

What a completely insane idea.

[Kronius]

I'm pretty sure Varulv owns the system now (based on the fact that he helped me with a recent issue). I do believe he's actively working on it, and also that it's even more screwed up than previously thought.

Yes. Yes. VERY Yes.

Couple this fact with maybe 75% of what Deron said in his post and you kind of get a clearer picture of what is going on. Limited Resources, Folks with REAL Jobs, and priority of the stuff that pays the bills (EG, Quests, Premium shit) makes getting secondary and tertiary content rewrites take a long time.

[Kitsun]

http://www.virilneus.com/blog/2008/12/06/read-what-simu-doesnt-want-you-to-know/

I figured it out when late one night I happened to waltz into the deed room coincidentially, and found a crowd of people (okay, like 2 or 3, but it is a weird room to be resting in), who were all unresponsive. I thought "this is strange, why would everyone come at this weird time in the middle of the night?" I watched them come alive. Considering the day and time being common cronjob times (regular computer tasks on a *nix system) I figured simu was probably doing something the equivalent of.

Months passed from when I first informed simu to when they took action (because I made the exploit public). I tried dragging people off, that worked, at first, I think one even reported me for it.

If you go back through forum logs here and look at who was regularly selling shops the first week of the month a few years ago, you'll know who was doing the exploiting.

Consequently at the time I gave them options like Dan did above, auctions and the like. That was how long ago?

The big question is, how did the cheaters figure it out. Did they guess on it? Stumble on it? Or get some inside information from a buddy?

You totally should've outed the abusers.

[crb]

You totally should've outed the abusers.

Pretty sure it was Mtenda and Amaron from here, but dunno, the people doing the purchases were no-name low levelers. And I think some shops may have been moved around by proxies. There is a reason I didn't just copy them to get a shop (which I sorely wanted), it was rather obviously mechanics abuse and, well, I remember what happened to the ranger rod group.

[Tgo01]

Okay seriously why is this so complicated? Make it so each account can only buy one shop every 10 days or so. I'm pretty sure I could code this in 10 minutes and I've never coded anything in my life.

[Kronius]

Okay seriously why is this so complicated? Make it so each account can only buy one shop every 10 days or so. I'm pretty sure I could code this in 10 minutes and I've never coded anything in my life.

See the thing about legacy systems is you can't really trash what is currently there and start from scratch, which is what I'm sure they'd LOVE to do... but they can't.

[Gweneivia]

See the thing about legacy systems is you can't really trash what is currently there and start from scratch, which is what I'm sure they'd LOVE to do... but they can't.

GSV!

[Kronius]

GSV!

Oh, now you're talkin! Maybe they can write it in a modern day coding language like PASCAL or COBOL

[crb]

Theoretically it could be an easy fix. The problem before was shops were cleared at a regular interval you could predict. So there is some shop cleanup script set to run the first of the month at midnight central time. All you do instead is cut that script in two, keeping the cleaning, but not the releasing of deeds. Move the releasing to a second script and have it activated at random times. It could even be triggered manually by whatever GM. In GM town behind the scenes you could put a very big button that triggers it and any GM could do so at random times as they log in.

[Allereli]

update from Varulv:

> These are literally off the top of my head. There has to be an easy way to get the system working again, instead of letting it die a long, slow, painful death. Is there any movement or effort being put towards getting the system up and running in some fashion?

I can tell you it's not easy - I'm basically reworking the entire backend for rent collection, reclamation, and deed distribution.

The new system will allow town gurus to distribute shop permits via RP events, raffles, auctions, or any other method they like. The NPC will have permits for reclaimed shops available at random times. Dropping permits in the treasure hopper is an interesting idea - I'll have to look at that. No plans to add them as an AG reward right now.

> So is the update going to come soon?

RSN. :)

Seriously, the backend updates will come as soon as I (and the QC team) are absolutely positive that the reclamation process is not going to eat anyone's stuff. There will be plenty of notice to make sure you have funds in your shop account before rent collection resumes. Shops right now are my number 3 project after finishing one other system and getting everything ready for Ebon Gate.

~V

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Game%20Design%20Discussions/Player-Run%20Shops/view/222

[AnticorRifling]

Theoretically it could be an easy fix. The problem before was shops were cleared at a regular interval you could predict. So there is some shop cleanup script set to run the first of the month at midnight central time. All you do instead is cut that script in two, keeping the cleaning, but not the releasing of deeds. Move the releasing to a second script and have it activated at random times. It could even be triggered manually by whatever GM. In GM town behind the scenes you could put a very big button that triggers it and any GM could do so at random times as they log in.

Easy fixes are always easy fixes when you haven't looked at the code.

[Androidpk]

They're even easier when you don't know any code.

[AnticorRifling]

They're even easier when you don't know any code.

Now you sound like a customer! "Oh we want it to do this, that should be easy you can make that happen right?"

[Kronius]

I can't tell you how frustrating it is try to reverse engineer someones shitty (and usually uncommented) code in an attempt to unfuck it.

[JustDan]

update from Varulv:

> These are literally off the top of my head. There has to be an easy way to get the system working again, instead of letting it die a long, slow, painful death. Is there any movement or effort being put towards getting the system up and running in some fashion?

I can tell you it's not easy - I'm basically reworking the entire backend for rent collection, reclamation, and deed distribution.

The new system will allow town gurus to distribute shop permits via RP events, raffles, auctions, or any other method they like. The NPC will have permits for reclaimed shops available at random times. Dropping permits in the treasure hopper is an interesting idea - I'll have to look at that. No plans to add them as an AG reward right now.

> So is the update going to come soon?

RSN. :)

Seriously, the backend updates will come as soon as I (and the QC team) are absolutely positive that the reclamation process is not going to eat anyone's stuff. There will be plenty of notice to make sure you have funds in your shop account before rent collection resumes. Shops right now are my number 3 project after finishing one other system and getting everything ready for Ebon Gate.

~V

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Game%20Design%20Discussions/Player-Run%20Shops/view/222

Gotta say... I like that he's communicating about it, considering ideas, and actually telling us what his priority list looks like.

And yes, I fully realize that item 1 is probably savants or mining or something, so we won't see it until the year 3941, when we're all orbiting Earth7 on one of it's seventeen moons and streaming Gemstone XXVII through our mental implants (and still bitching about how Sabreon's great-great-great-great-grandkids are ruining OTF). All I'm saying is Kudos to Varulv for communicating, instead of the stone cold silence we get from other sources.

[crb]

Easy fixes are always easy fixes when you haven't looked at the code.

I wouldn't need to. The code doesn't need to be changed. And yes, I know how to program, obviously, and have edited really spaghetti code someone else wrote.

The problem is there was an additional bug/fail apparently with rent collection. That is a separate issue, and apparently taken longer, then again, lots of GMs aren't exactly code ninjas.

But, changing a script set to run at a specific time to instead run at a random time is not a big deal, I don't care what language it is in or who did it. For instance the shop import script for playershops, I could change that to run randomly instead of at a specific time in about 5 minutes. This assumes the script works of course, fixing something that doesn't work would take a variable amount of time, which is apparently the problem based on varulv's comments.

[AnticorRifling]

IS the script nested in another job, does that script complete trigger another job? You don't know,you can only assume. I would agree setting a script or job to execute at a more random time as opposed to a hard coded time to execute wouldn't be hard in and of itself...but we don't know what we don't know.

[Kitsun]

I think I recall the last huge explosion with playershops was when they did like multi-month rent collections overnight and did some ungodly amount of repossessions where they needed to manually give back people's shops even if there were already more than the limit per room.

My guess is that they're trying to avoid that again.

[DaCapn]

To be honest, I'd rather have a couple of people script-claiming shops and flipping them for 5-7 mil than to have them barely ever show up for sale (except sometimes in the 20mil price range). The "temporary" fix is worse than the initial problem.

I don't really begrudge someone script-claiming them. I'd probably do it myself. At the least, the regular turn-over keeps the price down.

[JustDan]

To be honest, I'd rather have a couple of people script-claiming shops and flipping them for 5-7 mil than to have them barely ever show up for sale (except sometimes in the 20mil price range). The "temporary" fix is worse than the initial problem.

I don't really begrudge someone script-claiming them. I'd probably do it myself. At the least, the regular turn-over keeps the price down.

One shop permit per account, trial accounts are ineligible. Since they're rewriting some of the guts of it anyway, just do it like that. Also implement my "one request per 48 hours" idea, to give everyone a shot.

Though it sounds like each town guru will have lots of ways of disseminating shop permits. I'd love to see them get creative with it.

[Fallen]

Thing is it is 1 shop per character, not account. A LOT of people would be upset if they suddenly had to downsize to 1 shop per account. You're talking about affecting 50+ people with a change like that, which is by no means a small percentage of the community anymore.

[Fallen]

Thanks for the X-post. That's a fairly encouraging post IMO. Then again, Player shops and Player Housing are the mass murderers of GMs.

[Kitsun]

Wouldn't they be more serial killers than mass murderers?

[Mumblz]

It *is* one shop per account (last i checked)

[thefarmer]

It *is* one shop per account (last i checked)

I've owned multiple playershops on one account. Multiple people still do.

[Mumblz]

weird, i wonder how i got the idea in my head that i couldn't have a second shop...this is good news!

[Ardwen]

Shops were the best idea ever in gemstone to go absolutely wrong, entirely too many shops exist, entirely too many are used as lockers not as sales agencies, thy should have been sold in smaller amounts, require a very active upkeep, and not been hidden away in districts, but scattered thru the towns, Hell have shops out in the wilds too, be a great place for a "black market" shop. All that being said, allowing them to be a cash cow for a few players who knew the secret for so long was totally ridiculous, they knew it was going on, they track transactions far better then most people realize. The shop system as set up removed a huge percentage of the necessary human interaction in the game.

[DaCapn]

Shops were the best idea ever in gemstone to go absolutely wrong, entirely too many shops exist, entirely too many are used as lockers not as sales agencies, thy should have been sold in smaller amounts, require a very active upkeep, and not been hidden away in districts, but scattered thru the towns, Hell have shops out in the wilds too, be a great place for a "black market" shop. All that being said, allowing them to be a cash cow for a few players who knew the secret for so long was totally ridiculous, they knew it was going on, they track transactions far better then most people realize. The shop system as set up removed a huge percentage of the necessary human interaction in the game.

A lot of this has to do with them releasing limited edition items (mostly the consumables) at festivals that become more popular later. The fact that you can stockpile items in shops but can't in lockers has a lot more to do with it. I stockpile statues, blue crystals, and white crystals, charge them up, and use them. But you can't stack them effectively once they're charged so I need to stockpile more uncharged ones to fuel my eventual charging. If they changed the way items were released such that there was no incentive to stockpile and had a more robust stockpiling system, my shop would be less of a locker.

If there were much fewer of them, those people who hoard things might end up with more of them with fewer left for everyone else to enjoy. With few available, we probably wouldn't see much turn-over of shops either.

I think the game population dropping by an order of magnitude has a lot more to do with merchant interaction than a player-run shop system.

[Donquix]

Honestly trying to match up schedules with people to buy stuff in game isn't a social interaction I really cared for. The problem is in gemstone when you release anything as a commodity, which is the bulk of releases, it generally only helps the same subset of people. Your suggestions for "real" shops should exist, but the problem with shops are that they are a commodity to begin with. Everyone should have access to one, limit them to one room or increase the upkeep costs if you have to for the lower tiers, then make larger shops or the type you suggest in the real parts of town available through special means. Problem solved.

[Wrathbringer]

Honestly trying to match up schedules with people to buy stuff in game isn't a social interaction I really cared for. The problem is in gemstone when you release anything as a commodity, which is the bulk of releases, it generally only helps the same subset of people. Your suggestions for "real" shops should exist, but the problem with shops are that they are a commodity to begin with. Everyone should have access to one, limit them to one room or increase the upkeep costs if you have to for the lower tiers, then make larger shops or the type you suggest in the real parts of town available through special means. Problem solved.

Am I in the politics folder? Something about this plan rings a bell...

[leifastagsweed]

http://img.izismile.com/img/img3/20100316/moar_23.jpg

[Donquix]

Am I in the politics folder? Something about this plan rings a bell...

Trying too hard.