Dodge vs TWC for monks

[Aluvius]

The most recent changes for UCS and monks gave a boost to TWC which in some ways makes it more attractive (to a point) than 3x Dodge in my opinion. I've been keeping to 2x Dodge with my monk in order to spend the points elsewhere (1x ml transformation up till now), now I'm thinking that training in TWC might have a nice pay off. I still think that 3x Dodge is ultimately the way to go, but it looks like early on picking up 30 or so ranks of TWC would be a nice trade off. We also get an offhand outright parry chance with TWC training and 1214 (which also adds a chance to disarm when you open hand parry or get hit in the arms).

Just doing some pencil and paper calculations with stat bonuses zeroed out and assuming +20 UCS gloves, that TWC training up to 30 ranks would give a bonus of 68 DS in defensive and 15 DS in offensive. The same 30 ranks of Dodge would give 30 DS in defensive and 23 DS in offensive. 3x Dodge cost is 4/4 while TWC base is 2/2, so for half the cost you'd be picking up 38 defensive DS at the expense of 8 offensive DS.

The lower cost also lets me stick in a bit more MoC for FoF purposes or I can go a bit over 2x Dodge, I'm thinking getting at least 10 MoC to offset 1 extra opponent is worth it.

It looks to me though that diminishing returns kick in and 3x Dodge is just plainly more attractive after 30 ranks of TWC when it comes to raw DS plus the increased chance to outright evade. What isn't clear is how the chance to outright parry works with TWC though. That might make things more attractive with monk's access to 1214 and its chance to disarm on parry. Probably not though.

I've also reevaluated my plans to 1x ml transform and it just doesn't make sense to go over .5x except you will want 30 ranks at level 50 to push into chain at the earliest possible point. That's what freed up the points and led me to puzzle over some of these numbers.

Anyway, anyone care to comment or point out some insane mistake I've made? :)

[Jeril]

Parry DS is based on ranks, not bonus, even if the docs claim bonus. However, that first rank of TWC training will give a brawler +15ish offensive DS so is definitely worth picking up. For an empty left hand you get TWC parry DS as if you were using a sai or a main gauche, +10 then what you get for your stats. MoC is 5/2 for a monk, so it is the same number of points a warrior pays just different amounts of ptp and mtps, which means its cheap and you should try to work in more as you level, probably .5 at least just for the FoF.

[Aluvius]

Well darn, if the Parry DS formulae are wrong then that makes TWC much less attractive. That's a shame because I suspect that the offhand outright parry chance is probably based on TWC ranks.

[Jeril]

" Off-hand Parry DS = (TWC Skill+(STR/4)+(DEX/4)) × (0.10 + stance/4) + (5 or 15)

Where stance is a number between 0.0 (in offensive) to 1.0 (in defensive) and STR and DEX refers to the bonuses given to the Strength stat and Dexterity stat. The +5 at the end of the formula is +15 instead if the user is wielding either a main gauche or a sai in the off-hand."

Just pulled that off of krakii, basically means .1 offensive DS for every rank in TWC after the first. So you are looking at 10.1 DS for 101 ranks, that does seem rather bad, but if you ever need more DS then 3x dodge gives you, it would be the way to go.

[droit]

You'd also get twice the parry chance, which should be nice at 1x or 2x TWC. With 3x dodge, rank 3 emastery and 2x TWC, you'd see a LOT of outright dodges, and you'd be disarming things with 1214 quite frequently.

[Aluvius]

Yeah it said skill in the formula which to me reads as bonus, it would have made sense then but not so much with ranks. I think its probably a better use of points to go 1 rank TWC and .5x MoC and put the rest in going over 2x dodge. I'm a bit over 2.5x in Dodge doing it that way and I"m able to keep near .5x spells, ML Transform and HP.

[Teddybonkers]

So by training in TWC and not even holding any weapons you still gain an increase in your parrying ability?

[Aluvius]

So by training in TWC and not even holding any weapons you still gain an increase in your parrying ability?

Yep. You gain a small amount of parry ds and another chance to outright parry using 1214.