UAC and Held Brawling Weapons

[droit]

Ran some numbers with UAC and the advantages of held brawling weapons. Using some pretty average numbers (give or take), I found that using one brawling weapon gives a nice boost over attacking empty handed, but holding two weapons gives essentially no bonus over holding one. The bolded numbers are the final damage, all other things being equal.

PLATE

punch v plate, empty hands
UAF: 200 vs UDF: 150 = 1.33 * MM: 100 + d100: 50 = 183
83 * .140 = 11.62

punch v plate, 4x cestus
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 95 + d100: 50 = 183
83 * .165 = 13.7

punch v plate, 4x knuckleblade
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 90 + d100: 50 = 176
76 * .190 = 14.44

punch v plate, 4x tiger claw
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 85 + d100: 50 = 169
69 * .215 = 14.84

punch v plate, 4x cestus x2
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 90 + d100: 50 = 176
76 * .190 = 14.44

punch v plate, 4x knuckleblade x2
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 80 + d100: 50 = 162
62 * .240 = 14.88

punch v plate, 4x tiger claw x2
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 70 + d100: 50 = 148
48 * .290 = 13.92



SCALE

punch v scale, empty hands
UAF: 200 vs UDF: 150 = 1.33 * MM: 100 + d100: 50 = 183
83 * .200 = 16.6

punch v scale, 4x cestus
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 95 + d100: 50 = 183
83 * .225 = 18.68

punch v scale, 4x cestus x2
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 90 + d100: 50 = 176
76 * .250 = 19

punch v scale, 4x knuckleblade
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 90 + d100: 50 = 176
76 * .250 = 19

punch v scale, 4x knuckleblade x2
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 80 + d100: 50 = 162
62 * .300 = 18.6

punch v scale, 4x tiger claw
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 85 + d100: 50 = 169
69 * .275 = 18.98

punch v scale, 4x tiger claw x2
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 70 + d100: 50 =
48 * .350 = 16.8

Just some back-of-the-envelope calculations. It would be neat if someone mathematically minded found an optimal combination, since you can use different weights of brawling weapons together. My gut instinct right now is to go for the single knuckleblade-weight brawler.

[Elgrim]

Ok, call me crazy, but something seems odd here...

You attempt to punch a lesser mummy!
Your attack is hindered by holding an elegant maple-gripped zorchar knuckle-blade!
You have decent positioning against a lesser mummy.
UAF: 83 vs UDF: 60 = 1.383 * MM: 49 + d100: 71 = 138
... and hit for 20 points of damage!
Swift blow to gut causes the lesser mummy to gasp, and leaves behind a light bruise.
Strike leaves foe vulnerable to a followup kick attack!
Roundtime: 3 sec.

Looks like the weapon is giving around a -50 mod instead of -10. Any ideas?

[AbnInfamy]

Are you in offensive stance? Laying down?

[Elgrim]

Nothing quite so simple. Offensive stance, nothing in the off hand. Wearing robes. Standing up. Unencumbered. Mind boggling.

[droit]

Your zorchar knuckle-blade isn't blessed.

[Elgrim]

Hmm, good point. Should check that against a living target. My gloves are blessed. I guess I was hoping it carried over.

[droit]

Nope. If the weapon itself isn't blessed, it will hinder your MM.

[Elgrim]

How does that end up working with Voln step 8? The weapon still would need to be blessed to be used? Or does step 8 override that?

[droit]

The way it works with gloves/boots is that an unblessed pair will neither give you a bonus nor give you a penalty. I'm not sure if that's how held weapons work or not.

[Gelston]

Your attack is hindered by holding an elegant maple-gripped zorchar knuckle-blade!

That is always a good sign that you are receiving a penalty from the weapon/item in your hand.

[Drakefang]

Step 8 means your fists don't need to be blessed to hit something. Your gloves/footwraps basically are an extension of your hands that simply are able to be blessed, enchanted, weighted or flared. If you weight your gloves or flare them, then you'll need to remove them for undead. Step 8 otherwise will treat them as being blessed. Step 8 has zero to do with additional brawling weapons in hand.

[droit]

If you weight your gloves or flare them, then you'll need to remove them for undead.

I don't believe this is true. The UAC system will simply ignore flared/weighted gloves when a Volner attacks. No penalties, no bonuses.

[Drakefang]

Would be interesting to see. If it ignores them, then it amounts to the same thing as removing them unless you are hunting a mixed living/undead area. If it doesn't require you to remove them, that seems like an added benefit or possibly a bug. Did you get that from what GMs have said or did you intuit it? Not that it matters, I was only curious if it's been said directly.

Oh, then do you lose the enchant on them if they are weighted or flared and symbol 8 is ignoring them for the purpose of undead?

[Riltus]

Would be interesting to see. If it ignores them, then it amounts to the same thing as removing them unless you are hunting a mixed living/undead area. If it doesn't require you to remove them, that seems like an added benefit or possibly a bug. Did you get that from what GMs have said or did you intuit it? Not that it matters, I was only curious if it's been said directly.

Oh, then do you lose the enchant on them if they are weighted or flared and symbol 8 is ignoring them for the purpose of undead?

Gloves and Boots are ignored, without penalty, when attacking undead if they are not blessed because they are WORN and not HELD. Any held item will add a penalty to MM. UCS compatible brawling weapons that are not blessed will add a significantly higher MM penalty than blessed, when attacking undead.

Edited to add: Voln rank 8 members can always attack undead irrespective of any properties of worn or held items. But the MM penalties can be severe

Mark

[Aluvius]

Yes, with Voln Rank 8 if your gloves/boots are not blessed then they will not add any of their properties to your attack, weighting, flaring OR enchantment against undead. They won't hinder your attack though. Its sort of disappointing that this doesn't extend to held weapons, too.

Another nice benefit that I've been hesitant to ask about in case its a bug and not a feature is that Voln Rank 8 seems to be allowing people to use some cman's on undead without blessed equipment. I haven't been able to test it myself, but on lnet a couple of folks mentioned it working with sweep and I think headbutt. If this is correct then its a huge plus.