Brawling Rogue Build

[Wheelerm]

So, there was some discussion in the Monk thread regarding Brawling, and it sort of spun into a Brawling Rogue thread.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?73636-Just-Some-General-Things

I have been searching the forum most of the day and found a lot of threads regarding brawling rogues, but they are old and outdated, going so far as to discourage it due to brawling weapons sucking and if one should decide to go brawling to pick up Voln Fu. Since UAC seems to have gotten a facelift and Voln Fu has changed, I am wondering if the ambushing/brawling rogue is now more viable.

I have a level 35 TWC Ambushing Edged Weapon Rogue. I can post my training a little later tonight when I get home, but I wonder if you guys could advise me on how to change the training to a great brawler. Since it will mean a fixskills, I would like to know what I'm getting into before I do it.

In the meantime, what are your thoughts about ambushing/brawling rogues?

Thanks.

[Wheelerm]

Here's my TWC Edged Ambushing Build (wears brig):

Skill Name|X Trained per Level|Ranks
Armor Use|1X|34
Edged Weapons|2X|68
Two Weapon Combat|2X|68
Combat Maneuvers|1.5X|49
Multi Opponent Combat|0.5X|17
Ambust|2X|68
Physical Fitness|1X - 1.5X|42
Dodging|2X|68
Arcane Symbols|-|7 ranks
Magic Item Use|-|4 ranks
Harness Power|-|3 ranks
Climbing|0.5X|16
Swimming|0.5X|16
Disarming|2X|68
Picking Locks|2X|68
Stalking and Hiding|2X|68
Perception|2X|68
First Aid|0.3X|12
Picking Pockets|0.5X|16
Survival|0.5X|17

Character Stats:

STAT|NORMAL|(BONUS)
STR|100|(25)
CON|71|(5)
DEX|100|(35)
AGI|100|(30)
DIS|79|(4)
AUR|77|(23)
LOG|65|(7)
INT|67|(13)
WIS|65|(12)
INF|46|(-7)

This is what I'm thinking regarding UAC Rogue (wearing brig):

Skill Name|X Trained per Level|Ranks|Notes
Armor Use|1X|34|Keep
Edged Weapons|-|-|Drop
Brawling|2X|68|ADD
Two Weapon Combat|-|-|Drop
Combat Maneuvers|1.5X|49|Raise to 2.0X
Multi Opponent Combat|0.5X|17|Raise to 2.0X
Ambust|2X|68|Keep
Physical Fitness|1X - 1.5X|42|Keep
Dodging|2X|68|Raise to 3.0X
Arcane Symbols|-|7 ranks|Keep
Magic Item Use|-|4 ranks|Keep
Harness Power|-|3 ranks|Keep
Climbing|0.5X|16|Keep, or lower?
Swimming|0.5X|16|Keep, or lower?
Disarming|2X|68|Keep
Picking Locks|2X|68|Keep
Stalking and Hiding|2X|68|Keep
Perception|2X|68|Keep
First Aid|0.3X|12|Keep
Picking Pockets|0.5X|16|Keep, even though I don't Pick Pocket. Maybe drop them?
Survival|0.5X|17||Keep or maybe raise?

Any suggestions?

[Wheelerm]

You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a plumed cockatrice!
You have good positioning against a plumed cockatrice.
UAF: 51 vs UDF: 124 = 0.411 * MM: 92 + d100: 90 = 127
... and hit for 31 points of damage!
Strong strike leaves a bloody gash on the plumed cockatrice's right calf.
The plumed cockatrice is knocked to the ground!
The plumed cockatrice is stunned!
Strike leaves foe vulnerable to a followup grapple attack!
Roundtime: 4 sec.

You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to grapple a plumed cockatrice!
You have excellent positioning against a plumed cockatrice.
UAF: 51 vs UDF: 117 = 0.435 * MM: 91 + d100: 81 = 120
... and hit for 32 points of damage!
Lightning-fast move sends ankle in one direction and knee in the other! *SNAP!*
A plumed cockatrice writhes around, screeching!
The plumed cockatrice is stunned!

You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to grapple a plumed cockatrice!
You have excellent positioning against a plumed cockatrice.
UAF: 51 vs UDF: 102 = 0.500 * MM: 102 + d100: 85 = 136
... and hit for 49 points of damage!
Awesome grapple pulls head from body!
The plumed cockatrice screams evilly one last time and goes still.
Roundtime: 5 sec.



You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a plumed cockatrice!
You have excellent positioning against a plumed cockatrice.
UAF: 51 vs UDF: 124 = 0.411 * MM: 92 + d100: 88 = 125
... and hit for 52 points of damage!
Teeth knocked out... through the back of the plumed cockatrice's head!
The plumed cockatrice falls to the ground motionless.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to grapple a plumed cockatrice!
You have good positioning against a plumed cockatrice.
UAF: 51 vs UDF: 109 = 0.467 * MM: 107 + d100: 60 = 110
... and hit for 23 points of damage!
Head gripped and pulled down violently. Face collides with incoming knee, smashing nose to pieces!
The plumed cockatrice screams evilly one last time and goes still.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

[Jeril]

MoC is rather costly for a rogue and you can only be 1x in it, not 2x. Also, if you are hide and ambush, I wouldn't go over 10 ranks of it if I were you, probably even go with 0 ranks of it but sometimes off setting that second creature attacking you would be nice. You may want to find a spreadsheet and plug in your numbers to see how well they match up.

http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Training_Spreadsheet

Hope that helps a bit.

[jpatter123]

That is your UAF @ level 35? something not right there.

[Wheelerm]

I haven't converted yet. That's my UAF with my current TWC, Edged model. I haven't fixskilled over to brawling yet. I'm wondering if it's somehow possible to estimate the amount of gain I can expect if I change over.

[Wheelerm]

MoC is rather costly for a rogue and you can only be 1x in it, not 2x. Also, if you are hide and ambush, I wouldn't go over 10 ranks of it if I were you, probably even go with 0 ranks of it but sometimes off setting that second creature attacking you would be nice. You may want to find a spreadsheet and plug in your numbers to see how well they match up.

http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Training_Spreadsheet

Hope that helps a bit.

Oh, okay. Well, should I back it off to 10 ranks and spend those points somewhere else?

[Jeril]

There is a formula for your UAF: (Brawling Ranks × 2) + (CM Ranks / 2) + (STR bonus / 2) + (AGI bonus / 2) + (glove/boot enchant bonus/es) + (AVG held weapon enchant bonus / 2).
The enchant from the gloves and boots only apply to their respective attacks, gloves for punches and jabs. Boots for kicks. Not sure which would apply to grapple, one could think both but I suppose I could go out and do a quick check. I'll report back what I find.

Also, If you are 3x in dodge, 2x in cmans, 2x brawling, I'd say the next goals to shoot for would be to pick up 404 if you want to open your own boxes, then 2x PF, and 3x hide if that is even possible for you. Also make sure that you end up with enough climb/swim for the places you intend to hunt.

[Sean]

So, there was some discussion in the Monk thread regarding Brawling, and it sort of spun into a Brawling Rogue thread.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?73636-Just-Some-General-Things

I have been searching the forum most of the day and found a lot of threads regarding brawling rogues, but they are old and outdated, going so far as to discourage it due to brawling weapons sucking and if one should decide to go brawling to pick up Voln Fu. Since UAC seems to have gotten a facelift and Voln Fu has changed, I am wondering if the ambushing/brawling rogue is now more viable.

I have a level 35 TWC Ambushing Edged Weapon Rogue. I can post my training a little later tonight when I get home, but I wonder if you guys could advise me on how to change the training to a great brawler. Since it will mean a fixskills, I would like to know what I'm getting into before I do it.

In the meantime, what are your thoughts about ambushing/brawling rogues?

Thanks.

Or you can not use the UAC and just ambush things with a fist scythe. It's essentially a short sword.

[Jeril]

After a quick check, only gloves add their enchant to grapple. So, gloves add to jab, punch, and grapple. And boots only add to kick.

[Sean]

Or you can not use the UAC and just ambush things with a fist scythe. It's essentially a short sword.

For shits and giggles I took my UAC rogue out (27) vs warfs (25) and had good results both ways.

-----

R>hide
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>
A krolvin warfarer searches around nervously.
HR>amb warf head
You leap from hiding to attack!
You swing with a fel-handled vultite fist-scythe at a krolvin warfarer!
AS: +240 vs DS: +171 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +43 = +151
... and hit for 51 points of damage!
Horrible slash to the krolvin warfarer's head! Brain matter goes flying!
Looks like he never felt a thing.
The krolvin warfarer crashes to the floor in a plume of dust.
The deep blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
The bright luminescence fades from around a krolvin warfarer.
The light blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a krolvin warfarer.
The powerful look leaves a krolvin warfarer.
Your vultite fist-scythe returns to normal.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

-----

H>amb warf head
You leap from hiding to attack!
You swing with a fel-handled vultite fist-scythe at a krolvin warfarer!
AS: +240 vs DS: +174 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +100 = +205
... and hit for 59 points of damage!
Tremendous blow crushes skull like a ripe melon.
The krolvin warfarer crashes to the floor in a plume of dust.
The deep blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
The bright luminescence fades from around a krolvin warfarer.
The light blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a krolvin warfarer.
The powerful look leaves a krolvin warfarer.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

-----

HR>amb warf head
You leap from hiding to attack!
You swing with a fel-handled vultite fist-scythe at a krolvin warfarer!
AS: +240 vs DS: +153 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +94 = +220
... and hit for 67 points of damage!
Awesome shot skewers skull! The krolvin warfarer blinks once and falls quite dead!
The krolvin warfarer crashes to the floor in a plume of dust.
The deep blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
The bright luminescence fades from around a krolvin warfarer.
The light blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a krolvin warfarer.
The powerful look leaves a krolvin warfarer.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

-----

Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>
A krolvin warfarer searches around nervously.
H>punch warf
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a krolvin warfarer!
You have good positioning against a krolvin warfarer.
UAF: 184 vs UDF: 138 = 1.333 * MM: 73 + d100: 79 = 176
... and hit for 67 points of damage!
Palm strike to face drives nose straight into brain!
The krolvin warfarer crashes to the floor in a plume of dust.
The deep blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
The bright luminescence fades from around a krolvin warfarer.
The light blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a krolvin warfarer.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

-----

hide
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>punch warf
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a krolvin warfarer!
You have good positioning against a krolvin warfarer.
UAF: 184 vs UDF: 114 = 1.614 * MM: 72 + d100: 49 = 165
... and hit for 63 points of damage!
Palm strike to face drives nose straight into brain!
The krolvin warfarer crashes to the floor in a plume of dust.
The deep blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

-----

>hide
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>punch warf
...wait 1 seconds.
HR>punch warf
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a krolvin warfarer!
You have good positioning against a krolvin warfarer.
UAF: 184 vs UDF: 123 = 1.495 * MM: 72 + d100: 39 = 146
... and hit for 56 points of damage!
Palm strike to face drives nose straight into brain!
The krolvin warfarer crashes to the floor in a plume of dust.
The deep blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

----

H>punch warf
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a krolvin warfarer!
You have decent positioning against a krolvin warfarer.
UAF: 184 vs UDF: 174 = 1.057 * MM: 67 + d100: 24 = 94
A close miss!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>stow tig
You put an etched glaes tiger-claw in your gak wool greatcloak.
>
A krolvin warfarer barks some odd sounds.
>get fist
You remove a fel-handled vultite fist-scythe from in your gak wool greatcloak.
>hide
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>amb warf head
You leap from hiding to attack!
You swing with a fel-handled vultite fist-scythe at a krolvin warfarer!
AS: +240 vs DS: +199 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +97 = +177
... and hit for 67 points of damage!
Gruesome, slashing blow to the side of the krolvin warfarer's head!
Skull split open! Brain (and life) vanishes in a fine mist.
The krolvin warfarer crashes to the floor in a plume of dust.
The deep blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
The bright luminescence fades from around a krolvin warfarer.
The light blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a krolvin warfarer.
The powerful look leaves a krolvin warfarer.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

-----

>hide
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>
A krolvin warfarer searches around nervously.
HR>punch warf
...wait 1 seconds.
HR>punch warf
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a krolvin warfarer!
You have good positioning against a krolvin warfarer.
UAF: 184 vs UDF: 141 = 1.304 * MM: 73 + d100: 66 = 161
... and hit for 58 points of damage!
Rotating backhand cleanly snaps tibia!
The krolvin warfarer is knocked to the ground!
The krolvin warfarer is stunned!
The krolvin warfarer starts to favor his wounded leg!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>punch warf
You make a precise attempt to punch a krolvin warfarer!
You have good positioning against a krolvin warfarer.
UAF: 184 vs UDF: 230 = 0.800 * MM: 54 + d100: 53 = 96
A close miss!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>hide
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>punch warf
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a krolvin warfarer!
You have excellent positioning against a krolvin warfarer.
UAF: 184 vs UDF: 135 = 1.362 * MM: 72 + d100: 6 = 104
... and hit for 6 points of damage!
Strike comes up short, barely brushing the cheek!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>kick warf
You make a precise attempt to kick a krolvin warfarer!
You have excellent positioning against a krolvin warfarer.
UAF: 177 vs UDF: 230 = 0.769 * MM: 75 + d100: 95 = 152
... and hit for 85 points of damage!
Flying roundhouse lands severe blow to the head! Brain begins to ooze out through the ears!
The krolvin warfarer rolls over on the floor and goes still.
The deep blue glow leaves a krolvin warfarer.
Roundtime: 6 sec.

-----

etc.

[Wheelerm]

There is a formula for your UAF: (Brawling Ranks × 2) + (CM Ranks / 2) + (STR bonus / 2) + (AGI bonus / 2) + (glove/boot enchant bonus/es) + (AVG held weapon enchant bonus / 2).
The enchant from the gloves and boots only apply to their respective attacks, gloves for punches and jabs. Boots for kicks. Not sure which would apply to grapple, one could think both but I suppose I could go out and do a quick check. I'll report back what I find.

Also, If you are 3x in dodge, 2x in cmans, 2x brawling, I'd say the next goals to shoot for would be to pick up 404 if you want to open your own boxes, then 2x PF, and 3x hide if that is even possible for you. Also make sure that you end up with enough climb/swim for the places you intend to hunt.

Thanks a lot for the formula. Better than an estimate!

[Wheelerm]

Or you can not use the UAC and just ambush things with a fist scythe. It's essentially a short sword.

Thanks Sean, but I'm a little bored with the edged ambusher build and was wanting to explore UAC a little bit.

[Wheelerm]

Okay, I'm about to pull the trigger on this:

My current TPs (14000 away from 35) are 46 PTPs and 35 MTPs.

After making the following changes, I will have 44 PTPs and 72 MTPs. After these changes, I will then master the smastery and silentstrike cmans.

This pretty much has me really close to where I want to be and still is pretty close to the number of TPs I had going into this fixskill exercise.

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated from you more experienced folks.

SKILL|X TRAINING|RANKS|COMMENTS
ARMOR USE|1X|34|NO CHANGES
EDGED WEAPONS|-|0|DROPPED
BRAWLING|2X|68|ADDED
TWO WEAPON COMBAT|-|0|DROPPED
COMBAT MANEUVERS|~2X|60|THIS IS ENOUGH TO MASTER SMASTERY AND SILENTSTRIKE CMANS
MULTI-OPPONENT COMBAT|-|0|DROPPED FOR THE TIME BEING. WILL TRY TO PICK UP 1O RANKS ASAP
AMBUSH|2X|68|NO CHANGES
DODGE|2.8X|95|BEST I COULD DO WITH THE TPs I HAD AVAILABLE
ARCANE SYMBOLS|-|7 RANKS|NO CHANGE
MAGIC ITEM USE|-|5 RANKS|PICKED UP ONE MORE RANK
HARNESS POWER|-|5 RANKS|PICKED UP ONE MORE RANK
CLIMBING|0.5X|17|NO CHANGE
SWIMMING|0.5X|17|NO CHANGE
DISARMING|2X|68|NO CHANGE
PICKING LOCKS|2X|68|NO CHANGE
STALKING AND HIDING|2X|68|NO CHANGE
PERCEPTION|2X|68|NO CHANGE
1ST AID|~0.5X|12|NO CHANGE
PICKING POCKETS|-|0|DROPPED
SURVIVAL|0.5X|17

[Jeril]

Looks good to me. Why the first aid and survival? It doesn't look like you have enough to be a good skinner, do you by chance live/hunt around Icemule?

[Wheelerm]

Looks good to me. Why the first aid and survival? It doesn't look like you have enough to be a good skinner, do you by chance live/hunt around Icemule?

I actually skin pretty good. Not 100%, but enough to keep doing it.

I live in Vaalor.

[Wheelerm]

Started out safe to see how this works, but here's a log. Sorcerer's Isle is my usual hunting spot. Since some friends went with me out there, it's a little hard to judge how much easier or harder it is at this point. I'll post my opinions about my usual hunting spot later.

--------------------------------

You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a plumed cockatrice!
You have good positioning against a plumed cockatrice.
UAF: 193 vs UDF: 124 = 1.556 * MM: 92 + d100: 63 = 206
... and hit for 64 points of damage!
Palm strike to face drives nose straight into brain!
The plumed cockatrice falls to the ground motionless.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

-------------------------------

You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to grapple a Neartofar orc!
You have excellent positioning against a Neartofar orc.
UAF: 193 vs UDF: 89 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 94 + d100: 94 = 282
... and hit for 69 points of damage!
Awesome grapple pulls head from body!
[You have earned 1 recognition point.]
A Neartofar orc breathes his last gasp and dies.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

---------------------------------

You're now aiming at the right leg of your target when using a ranged weapon, or while ambushing.
A Neartofar troll snarls menacingly as he advances!

You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to kick a Neartofar troll!
You have good positioning against a Neartofar troll.
UAF: 193 vs UDF: 112 = 1.723 * MM: 94 + d100: 49 = 210
... and hit for 79 points of damage!
Rapid twisting kick deals nasty double strike to lower left leg!
A Neartofar troll screams and falls to the ground grasping his mangled right leg!
The Neartofar troll is stunned!
Roundtime: 6 sec.

You're now aiming at the head of your target when using a ranged weapon, or while ambushing.

You make a precise attempt to grapple a Neartofar troll!
You have good positioning against a Neartofar troll.
UAF: 193 vs UDF: 101 = 1.910 * MM: 98 + d100: 43 = 230
... and hit for 54 points of damage!
Repeated blows to both sides of the head dizzies foe!
The Neartofar troll appears to be moving more slowly!
The Neartofar troll seems at a loss for words!
Strike leaves foe vulnerable to a followup grapple attack!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
...wait 2 seconds.
You make a precise attempt to grapple a Neartofar troll!
You have excellent positioning against a Neartofar troll.
UAF: 193 vs UDF: 95 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 103 + d100: 92 = 298
... and hit for 80 points of damage!
Awesome grapple pulls head from body!
[You have earned 1 recognition point.]
The Neartofar troll screams one last time and dies.
The deep blue glow leaves a Neartofar troll.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

----------------------------------------

A roan centaur ranger just galloped in.
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a roan centaur ranger!
You have good positioning against a roan centaur ranger.
UAF: 193 vs UDF: 139 = 1.388 * MM: 94 + d100: 62 = 192
... and hit for 46 points of damage!
Cross punch to abdomen drives breath out with a *WHOOF!*
The roan centaur ranger is stunned!
Roundtime: 4 sec.

You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to grapple a roan centaur ranger!
You have excellent positioning against a roan centaur ranger.
UAF: 193 vs UDF: 139 = 1.388 * MM: 89 + d100: 98 = 221
... and hit for 59 points of damage!
Awesome grapple pulls head from body!
The roan centaur ranger falls to the ground and dies.
A roan centaur ranger returns to normal color.
The powerful look leaves a roan centaur ranger.
The light blue glow leaves a roan centaur ranger.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

--------------------------------------------

TRIED TO USE CMAN SILENTSTRIKE - I GUESS I NEED A BRAWLING WEAPON

You quickly leap from hiding to deliver your attack!
You swing a closed fist at a tan centaur ranger!
AS: +223 vs DS: +134 with AvD: +5 + d100 roll: +4 = +98
A clean miss.
You retreat back into the shadows.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
You are beginning to feel a little fatigued.

A tan centaur ranger wheels quickly, plants her front hooves firmly on the ground and kicks at Luicindas with both hind legs!
Luicindas makes a feeble attempt to avoid the powerful kick, but to no avail. The ranger's hooves catch her squarely, hammering into her with devastating force!
... 30 points of damage!
Hard blow to left hand breaking bones!
She is stunned!
The impact of the blow picks Luicindas up and hurls her northeast!

----after trying silentstrike and rejoining Luicindas----

Luicindas mutters under her breath.
Luicindas softly says, "Kicked me."
Hakosuka asks, "You alright luici?"
Luicindas softly says, "I never left defensive."
HJ>'that's a disappointment
You quietly say, "That's a disappointment."
You quietly say, "Sorry, it's not a disappointment that you got kicked...just to clear that up."
Luicindas takes a bite of her acantha leaf.
Luicindas looks a little better.
Luicindas takes a bite of her acantha leaf.
Luicindas looks a little better.
Luicindas takes a bite of her acantha leaf.
Luicindas looks a little better.
Luicindas put some acantha leaf in her white cloth knapsack.
Luicindas laughs!
HJ>'wait...that sounds worse
You quietly say, "Wait...that sounds worse."
HJ>grumble
You grumble.
Luicindas laughs!

----------------------------

You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a tegursh sentry!
You have good positioning against a tegursh sentry.
UAF: 193 vs UDF: 200 = 0.965 * MM: 93 + d100: 64 = 153
... and hit for 46 points of damage!
Palm strike to face drives nose straight into brain!
[You have earned 25 recognition points.]

A tegursh sentry rasps a final scream and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

[Jeril]

You quickly leap from hiding to deliver your attack!
You swing a closed fist at a tan centaur ranger!
AS: +223 vs DS: +134 with AvD: +5 + d100 roll: +4 = +98
A clean miss.
You retreat back into the shadows.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
You are beginning to feel a little fatigued.


It will probably be a while before you can kill something worth while like that with a barehanded attack. However, it would be much different if you tried a brawling weapon like a fist-scythe. But I believe swinging a weapon is something you are trying to get away from at least for a while and do something new.

[Kitsun]

The stamina in that situation is probably better used to ambush out with a UAC and go with a vanish.

This is the first time in ages that I kinda regret not having Hide/Stalk in my build. Looks hilarious to use the tier ups from stealth to crush skulls.

[Wheelerm]

It will probably be a while before you can kill something worth while like that with a barehanded attack. However, it would be much different if you tried a brawling weapon like a fist-scythe. But I believe swinging a weapon is something you are trying to get away from at least for a while and do something new.

Yeah, there was some thought that silent strike would be a UAC attack for brawlers. The thought was that it would look like:

You quickly leap from hiding to deliver your attack!
You make a precise attempt to punch a roan centaur ranger!
***UAF CALCULATIONS HERE***
You retreat back into the shadows.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
You are beginning to feel a little fatigued.

But, no...it's a weapon-based attack. I'm trying to decide if I should keep it and pick up some brawler weapons, which penalize me, or go through the unlearning and pick up some other CMAN instead.

[Wheelerm]

The stamina in that situation is probably better used to ambush out with a UAC and go with a vanish.

This is the first time in ages that I kinda regret not having Hide/Stalk in my build. Looks hilarious to use the tier ups from stealth to crush skulls.

Vanish looked interesting. Maybe I'll pick that up instead.

[dszabo]

Couldn't you grab your weapon, silent strike, resheathe, then continue UAC pwnage?

[Sean]

Yeah, there was some thought that silent strike would be a UAC attack for brawlers. The thought was that it would look like:

You quickly leap from hiding to deliver your attack!
You make a precise attempt to punch a roan centaur ranger!
***UAF CALCULATIONS HERE***
You retreat back into the shadows.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
You are beginning to feel a little fatigued.

But, no...it's a weapon-based attack. I'm trying to decide if I should keep it and pick up some brawler weapons, which penalize me, or go through the unlearning and pick up some other CMAN instead.

It's pretty much the same as just weapon training as a rogue.. hide, punch/kick, search .. instead of hide, ambush, search

[Jeril]

I'd say to pick up the three ranks of vanish over silent strike, if you have all three ranks with a macro or alias your exposure time would be very minimal, and you'd actually be able to aim your shot instead of hoping to get lucky. And it would have the added bonus of working with your UAC attacks.

[Wheelerm]

Couldn't you grab your weapon, silent strike, resheathe, then continue UAC pwnage?

Gonna try this out. I picked up some yeirka-spurs today and going to see how they operate. If it doesn't look like it's going to work out, I'll drop it and pick up vanish.

[Wheelerm]

Using silent strike will check to see if you have two weapons in your hands, and attempt to do a TWC maneuver. Since I dropped my TWC skills, I get one strike with my right hand, but fail to find an opening for my left hand:

-----------------------------

A plumed cockatrice snaps at you with its pincer!
You evade the attack by inches!
R>
Roundtime: 2 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>
You are now targeting a plumed cockatrice.
H>
You quickly leap from hiding to deliver your attack!
You slash with a frosty blue rhimar tiger-claw at a plumed cockatrice!
AS: +243 vs DS: +111 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +84 = +256
... and hit for 88 points of damage!
Hard slash to the plumed cockatrice's side opens its spleen!
The plumed cockatrice is stunned!

You are unable to find an opening for your lefthand strike.

You retreat back into the shadows.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
HR>
A Neartofar orc stalks in!
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a plumed cockatrice!
You have excellent positioning against a plumed cockatrice.
UAF: 223 vs UDF: 119 = 1.873 * MM: 67 + d100: 81 = 206
... and hit for 90 points of damage!
Spine severed by brutal strike to the back of the neck! That was almost humane.
The plumed cockatrice falls to the ground motionless.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

------------------------------------

If I could find a 7X or 8X yeirka-spur or tiger-claw, it would be nice. These are 4X, so my AS is lower than I'm used to.

[droit]

I've run some numbers regarding held brawling weapons with UAC. It seems like holding one weapon gives a decent bonus over open handed, but the difference between holding one weapon and holding two is pretty minimal in most cases.

punch v plate, empty hands
UAF: 200 vs UDF: 150 = 1.33 * MM: 100 + d100: 50 = 183
83 * .140 DF = 11.62 damage

punch v plate, 4x knuckleblade
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 90 + d100: 50 = 176
76 * .190 DF = 14.44 damage

punch v plate, 4x knuckleblade x2
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 80 + d100: 50 = 162
62 * .240 DF = 14.88 damage

tl;dr - Just use one weapon and save yourself the TWC penalties.

[Wheelerm]

I've run some numbers regarding held brawling weapons with UAC. It seems like holding one weapon gives a decent bonus over open handed, but the difference between holding one weapon and holding two is pretty minimal in most cases.

punch v plate, empty hands
UAF: 200 vs UDF: 150 = 1.33 * MM: 100 + d100: 50 = 183
83 * .140 DF = 11.62 damage

punch v plate, 4x knuckleblade
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 90 + d100: 50 = 176
76 * .190 DF = 14.44 damage

punch v plate, 4x knuckleblade x2
UAF: 210 vs UDF: 150 = 1.4 * MM: 80 + d100: 50 = 162
62 * .240 DF = 14.88 damage

tl;dr - Just use one weapon and save yourself the TWC penalties.

Nice. Thanks for that.

[Jace Solo]

True Ninja Build.

[moonshine]

That open hand allows for some good use of CheapShots at times, btw.

[Wheelerm]

Got a buddy who is enchanting now. He's working on a set of gloves and boots for me. 1X pour and enchant will be ready tonight. I'm going to try them out to see what and if they improve anything before he wastes a bunch of time and energy on enchanting them further. I'll post the results tonight.

Ideally, we're going to look at taking this set to 4X for sure, but we'll probably get another set for him to take to 7X if he's agreeable to doing it.

[Wheelerm]

Well, since I got another Fixskills due to the recent changes made to UAC, I get another chance to fix any gaps.

I will definately be dropping cman silentstrike, but will delay choosing a replacement cman for the moment. I'm hedging between kickmastery and evade and I want to see the other cmans that were opened up for rogues out of the monk system.

My question is with Dodging vs. TWC. At 3X dodging, I seem to be able to dodge pretty good. It was mentioned in another thread that it might be worth picking up TWC for the outright parry boost at lower levels. Do you think that I have passed the point where TWC might not be as much of a benefit? I'm not sure if other changes sould be made, too. I hate to waste my fixskills just to unlearn silentstrike, so if I have to I'll just wait out the 22 days to unlearn that cman and hold onto the fixskills.

Also, it was mentioned on the officials that there is an MM penalty according to the armor you wear, which is calculated as 1/2 the action penalty rounded down. For brig, that equates to 0.5*12(action penalty of brig) = MM Penalty of 6. This is a flat penalty regardless of stance or armor undertraining.

SKILL|X TRAINING|RANKS
ARMOR USE|1X|35
BRAWLING|2X|76
COMBAT MANEUVERS|~2X|60
MULTI-OPPONENT COMBAT|-|3 Ranks
PHYSICAL FITNESS|?|43 Ranks
AMBUSH|2X|70
DODGE|2.8X|102
ARCANE SYMBOLS|-|7 RANKS
MAGIC ITEM USE|-|5 RANKS
HARNESS POWER|-|5 RANKS
CLIMBING|0.5X|16
SWIMMING|0.5X|16
DISARMING|2X|70
PICKING LOCKS|2X|70
STALKING AND HIDING|2X|70
PERCEPTION|2X|70
1ST AID|~0.5X|12
SURVIVAL|0.5X|17

STAT|NORMAL|(BONUS)|ENHANCED|(BONUS)
STR|100|(25)|108|(29)
CON|71|(5)|71|(5)
DEX|100|(35)|108|(39)
AGI|100|(30)|100|(30)
DIS|79|(4)|89|(9)
AUR|78|(24)|78|(24)
LOG|65|(7)|65|(7)
INT|67|(13)|67|(13)
WIS|65|(12)|65|(12)
INF|46|(-7)|46|(-7)

[droit]

The armor MM penalty got reduced to 1/4 AP. The part where it says it's a "flat penalty" is also slightly misleading. You can further reduce your MM penalty with armor use overtraining; it reduces your AP, and thus your MM penalty.

[neimanz1]

So I could use my double leathers/brigandine with no mm penalty at all?

[MrMortimur]

So I could use my double leathers/brigandine with no mm penalty at all?

With armored evasion yes.

[Wheelerm]

Thank you for clearing that up. With respect to 3X dodge vs TWC. Do you think I would really gain a lot by picking up TWC?

[droit]

No. If you're deciding between the two, 3x dodge. Grab one rank of TWC for the initial benefit, then leave it till you have more TPs to spend.

[Elgrim]

Has anyone tested to see if shield and brawl seems viable after the newest round of changes? My rogue is currently not using a shield, but with the fixskills I could see myself making some room for at least 1x shield use, if not 2x. I'm wondering what the MM penalty is for a medium shield or buckler with 1x and 2x training.

[Riltus]

Has anyone tested to see if shield and brawl seems viable after the newest round of changes? My rogue is currently not using a shield, but with the fixskills I could see myself making some room for at least 1x shield use, if not 2x. I'm wondering what the MM penalty is for a medium shield or buckler with 1x and 2x training.

I put an MM shield penalty table on KP.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/MM

Mark

[droit]

Mark, could you calculate MM penalties for different sized bows?

[Riltus]

Mark, could you calculate MM penalties for different sized bows?

All weapons, including bows have the same penalty structure.

Right hand MM penalties:

0x: -30
1x: -22
2x: -15

But there is an issue with handedness. All weapons, regardless of which hand is doing the holding, have a -30 MM penalty with 0x training. However, when held in the left hand only half the training is being applied. Holding a bow in the left hand with 2x training will have the 1x training penalty of -22 rather than the 2x penalty of -15.

I'm hoping this is a bug. If not, then archers, who want to utilize UCS attacks, will need to change the default from left to right hand when carrying a bow.

Off-hand MM penalties:

0x: -30
1x: -26
2x: -22

Edited to add: I tested this with a character with both 0x and 2x brawling ranks per level. The off-hand results remained unchanged.

Mark

[Wheelerm]

Great, so just one rank of TWC for the initial benefit. Sounds like I won't have to use the other fixskills then. I'll just wait until I'm ready to train again to add one TWC rank.

[Jeril]

Great, so just one rank of TWC for the initial benefit. Sounds like I won't have to use the other fixskills then. I'll just wait until I'm ready to train again to add one TWC rank.

Why wait? That one rank of TWC is only 2/2, really cheap and will barely affect any plans you have for your next level while you'd find that extra 15 DS beneficial.

[petroglyph]

Got a buddy who is enchanting now. He's working on a set of gloves and boots for me. 1X pour and enchant will be ready tonight. I'm going to try them out to see what and if they improve anything before he wastes a bunch of time and energy on enchanting them further. I'll post the results tonight.

Ideally, we're going to look at taking this set to 4X for sure, but we'll probably get another set for him to take to 7X if he's agreeable to doing it.

You realize you can buy them off the rack at 4x in Landing, right?

[Wheelerm]

You realize you can buy them off the rack at 4x in Landing, right?

Not in the Landing, but irrelevant now. I got a set.

[Wheelerm]

Warning: One cannot use the KICK verb between friends any more if you go UAC.

I had just died and was revived.

You detach a well-crafted narrow golvern lockpick from a kelyn-clasped keyring.
J>
Sentral offers you a scratched fel trunk. Click ACCEPT to accept the offer or DECLINE to decline it. The offer will expire in 30 seconds.
J>pick my trunk
J>
You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
You make a poor attempt (d100=33).
You are not able to pick the lock, and learn little about it.
Roundtime: 20 sec.
JR>
Sentral grins.
JR>
Sentral heartily says, "I can open this one too."
JR>
Sentral makes a quick gesture while calling upon the powers of the elements...
JR>
Sentral gestures.
A scintillating light surrounds Sentral's hands.
JR>
Sentral makes a quick gesture while calling upon the powers of the elements...
JR>
Sentral gestures at a scratched fel trunk.
You hear a soft click from the trunk and it suddenly flies open.
The scintillating light fades from Sentral's hands.
JR>
Sentral lets out a cheer!
JR>
Luicindas applauds Sentral.
JR>pick my trunk
You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
You make a poor attempt (d100=38).
You are not able to pick the lock, and learn little about it.
Roundtime: 20 sec.
JR>
Karmus grins at Sentral.
JR>
Sentral gathers the remaining coins from inside his fel trunk.
JR>
Karmus asks, "Maybe we didn't have to get Rischaan rivived after all?"
JR>
Karmus grins at Sentral.
JR>
Sentral tries to empty the contents of his trunk into his coat, and everything falls in quite nicely.
JR>kneel
You kneel down.
KJ>chu karm
You chuckle at Karmus.
KJ>
Sentral giggles at you.
KJ>kick karm
Try standing up first.
KJ>
Karmus removes some glowing violet essence dust from in his deep black longcoat.
KJ>sta
You stand back up.
J>kick karm
You make a precise attempt to kick Karmus!
Your attack is hindered by holding a simple thanot trunk!
Your attack is hindered by holding a well-crafted narrow golvern lockpick!
You have decent positioning against Karmus.
UAF: 231 vs UDF: 302 = 0.764 * MM: 60 + d100: 95 = 140
... and hit for 34 points of damage!
Sudden high kick nails Karmus just between the eyes!
He is stunned!
Strike leaves foe vulnerable to a followup grapple attack!
Roundtime: 8 sec.
JR>
Sentral heartily exclaims, "Yiesk!"
JR>'Oh
You quietly say, "Oh."
JR>
Sentral laughs!
JR>
Sentral's offer to you has expired.
J>'What?
You quietly ask, "What?"
J>
Sentral laughs!
J>clear target
I don't understand what you typed.
J>
Sentral heartily says, "Nice kick."
J>
Karmus falls over.
J>
Sentral cackles!
J>
Sentral heartily says, "Wow."
J>
Luicindas softly says, "Opps."
J>
Luicindas laughs!
J>
Sentral heartily says, "Got him between the eyes."
J>
Karmus says, "Guess we don't want to get him upset."
J>pull karm
You pull Karmus to his feet.
J>
Luicindas falls over.
J>

[Jeril]

You can still kick someone but you have to be defensive to do it.

[msconstrew]

I'm resurrecting this thread to report on my findings with an ambushing UAC/brawling rogue. Level 26, human. Here are the stats and training:

Gender: Female Age: 33 Expr: 782620 Level: 26
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 98 (29) ... 98 (29)
Constitution (CON): 70 (10) ... 70 (10)
Dexterity (DEX): 98 (24) ... 98 (24)
Agility (AGI): 98 (24) ... 98 (24)
Discipline (DIS): 78 (14) ... 78 (14)
Aura (AUR): 76 (13) ... 76 (13)
Logic (LOG): 62 (11) ... 62 (11)
Intuition (INT): 65 (12) ... 65 (12)
Wisdom (WIS): 64 (7) ... 64 (7)
Influence (INF): 43 (-3) ... 43 (-3)

| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 50 10
Armor Use..........................| 120 30
Combat Maneuvers...................| 155 55
Brawling...........................| 156 56
Ambush.............................| 156 56
Physical Fitness...................| 141 41
Dodging............................| 184 84
Stalking and Hiding................| 156 56
Perception.........................| 114 28
Climbing...........................| 62 13
Swimming...........................| 40 8

So, in essence, she is: 30 ranks of armor use (wearing FGB); 3x dodge, 2x brawl, 2x CM, 2x ambush, 1.5x PF (trying to get this to 2x), 2x stalk/hide, 1x perception.

I'm working on getting to .5x TWC to see how it affects her DS, and then there's also some random swim/climb in there.

She's in Zul right now and (with a full mage spell up), she can hunt about 10 levels above her in the undead area. Without any outside spells at all, she hunts very well in the grutik shaman/baby roa'ter area. And the 3x dodge makes it appreciably easier to, well, dodge various maneuver attacks.

I'll post some logs later, but it's working out really well right now. Having a lot of fun with it. The tiered system really DOES make it easier, but I find that punch and kick are my bread and butter.