Your Left Wing Hero on America.

Your Hero on America
Michael Moore's views on us, as stated in the London Daily Harold i believe.

"They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet ... in thrall to conniving, thieving, smug pr---s.

"We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance," he said. "We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing. National Geographic produced a survey which showed that 60 percent of 18-25 year olds don't know where Great Britain is on a map. And 92 percent of us don't own a passport."


Way to Go Mr. Moore. I now am not left to wonder why Hezbollah supports you anymore.

[vigilante]

The truth hurts sometimes, don't it?

Truth?
I seem to be the opposite of everything he said. I must be in the 40% of people who know where Great Britain is on the map, as well as I a part of the 8% who own a passport.

But that is me. I dont feel that I am more worldly at 21 than 92% of America.

[GSTamral]

Don't argue with Edine. He'll google the facts on you.

[Betheny]

Originally posted by GSTamral
Don't argue with Edine. He'll google the facts on you.

He can't argue my opinion, and my opinion is th at stupid people shouldn't call people stupid.

[GSTamral]

I agree. I mean, he still thinks being a walmart eyeglass doctor's cashier/secretary/fitter qualifies him as part of the medical profession.

Dr. Edine. scary.

[Betheny]

I kinda like that theory.

Cause that means, since I sell lab equipment to the federal government, I'm a politician.

:beer:

[GSTamral]

I'm not quite sure who's filled with more bullshit lies and propaganda, edine or michael moore.

I'd say both are equally stupid, selfish, and ignorant in my book.

Michael Moore is a fucknut who made up every lie in the book in Bowling for Columbine and put it on a screen and called it a documentary, and Edine thinks the national review is the only unbiased newspaper in the world.

Raise your hand if you'd like to personally kick both of their asses. Then again, having seen both, neither one would be much of a fight anyway. Like taking candy from an unguarded table.

Originally posted by GSTamral
I agree. I mean, he still thinks being a walmart eyeglass doctor's cashier/secretary/fitter qualifies him as part of the medical profession.

Dr. Edine. scary.

Edit to remove the mean part.

[Edited on 7-8-2004 by The Edine]

[GSTamral]

For whatever that means, if that's the best you can do to make a comeback, perhaps you'd be best served by going back and reading more copies of the national review.

Originally posted by GSTamral
and Edine thinks the national review is the only unbiased newspaper in the world.


Tamral, I think I have only once quoted the National Review. Most of the things I use are from CNN.com so I dont have to hear people make issue of the source of the story.

But it was a nice attempt.

[Delirium]

Wasnt there a thing about how stupid the brittish are as well recently. I think i remember that a good number of them thought Xena was a real historic figure. If you look at big enough of a group there will always be dipshits.

The problem here is he claims to be so pro US and then hands interviews to people from other countries and tells them we are all one toothed rednecks who are as a whole dumber than kleenex. As if Europe doesnt have a bad view of americans as a whole already now we have this guy feeding them what they want to hear.

[GSTamral]

<<<
I think I have only once quoted the National Review.
>>>


That's like saying I only ate shit out of a public toilet once, so...

Originally posted by GSTamral
For whatever that means, if that's the best you can do to make a comeback, perhaps you'd be best served by going back and reading more copies of the national review.

Oh Tamral you know exactly what it means.

I also do not need to justify my past profession, so there was no need for a comeback. I also left employment at Walmart in 2001 After I received my certification.

[Betheny]

Originally posted by The Edine

Originally posted by GSTamral
I agree. I mean, he still thinks being a walmart eyeglass doctor's cashier/secretary/fitter qualifies him as part of the medical profession.

Dr. Edine. scary.

Make sure you stick it in her butt when you go and visit her, we would not want her to lose her virginity :winks:

People's personal lives have zero bearing on what is going on here.

I would suggest you taking that comment down and apologizing, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what Tamral is, h as, was, and will say. EVer. Until he brings up his personal life, you need to shut the fuck up and sit down.

I really, really hope you get gang raped by some hantavirus-infested rhesus monkeys.

Originally posted by GSTamral
<<<
I think I have only once quoted the National Review.
>>>


That's like saying I only ate shit out of a public toilet once, so...

Edit: Being mean is bad.

[Edited on 7-8-2004 by The Edine]

[Delirium]

I dont understand why people get so infatuated with Edine. I know he isnt always saying popular things but every thread he posts in someone has to talk shit about something he said 200 posts ago. Who gives a fuck,lets get back to bashing Moore or praising him or loving the US or hating it.

[Betheny]

Learn that from experience, did you?

Originally posted by Maimara
[quote]

People's personal lives have zero bearing on what is going on here.

I would suggest you taking that comment down and apologizing, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what Tamral is, h as, was, and will say. EVer. Until he brings up his personal life, you need to shut the fuck up and sit down.

I really, really hope you get gang raped by some hantavirus-infested rhesus monkeys.

Im sorry Maimara, but I was not the one who made such comments first. It was Tamral who decided to insult me.

[Betheny]

OK, let me convene kindertarten class here. Sit down on your mats, children, and take a lesson.

Tamral was referencing something you said on the boards. You're referencing something that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand, because you are too pea-brained to come up with something better.

You have NO right to delve into someone's personal life, true or not, unless they bring it up first. You put yourself out there to be teased, laughed at, made fun of, agreed with, cheered on, whatever, when you started this thread -- and when you posted a lot of the other things you say regarding this somewhat sensitive subject. Tamral, however, has never made his personal life your business. Get it?

Originally posted by Maimara
Learn that from experience, did you?

Edit: I was unkind here as well.

[Edited on 7-8-2004 by The Edine]

[Betheny]

Originally posted by The Edine

Originally posted by Maimara
Learn that from experience, did you?

No, I'm not much for the backdoor loving; nor have I dated a woman who's chastity belt only has an opening there.

I have no clue who or what you're talking about, honestly. But karma will eventually turn around and bite you in the ass.

To your knowledge he has not. Then again you have not been privy to the interactions he and I have had over the last 6 or more months.

His attack was a personal one, and it was responded to with one a similar intention, to hurt the one it was aimed at.

I admit mine was a bit more vicious, but an easy way to win a fight is to use a bigger gun, as long as you care don't about the collateral damage.

Edit: to add a bit of Care.

[Edited on 7-8-2004 by The Edine]

[Blazing247]

GOOD LUCK in the Army Edine.

:yawn:

This post was translated and censored by Kindler, Gentler John version 2.5.

[Kriztian]

Originally posted by Delirium
Wasnt there a thing about how stupid the brittish are as well recently. I think i remember that a good number of them thought Xena was a real historic figure. If you look at big enough of a group there will always be dipshits.

The problem here is he claims to be so pro US and then hands interviews to people from other countries and tells them we are all one toothed rednecks who are as a whole dumber than kleenex. As if Europe doesnt have a bad view of americans as a whole already now we have this guy feeding them what they want to hear.

Heh, newsflash. He wasn't telling them anything they didn't already know.

[Blazing247]

It is easy to be the voice of doubt. It is even easier to stand there and point out the flaws in another person. People keep talking about Michael Moore as if he is some important person with an important message. He's a cynical, agenda ridden, megalomaniac who believes people truly care about what he has to say, which is partly true because people love conspiracies.

Fine, the man is entitled to his political opinions. However, I tuned him out a LONG time ago because everytime you put a microphone near the man, instead of talking about anything else (like the weather, sports, HIS FILMS), he uses the 15 seconds of fame to bash the President, his own country, and his fellow citizens.

If only someone would put him in their crosshairs...

[Numbers]

Is there a link to that Moore article?

[DeV]

Originally posted by The Edine

"We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance
I prefer the term arrogance. :smug: Michael Moore is a drama King. People feed into it.

[Delirium]

Heh, newsflash. He wasn't telling them anything they didn't already know.

You dont see brittish film makers coming over here telling us that the brittish all have bad teeth and are a bunch a pompous asses. If they did would you be upset? Even if you knew most americans already thought that? Its funny Moore left out one of stereotypes of americans(being fat),i wonder why that could be?

[xShadowMerchantx]

Originally posted by The Edine
Truth?
I seem to be the opposite of everything he said. I must be in the 40% of people who know where Great Britain is on the map, as well as I a part of the 8% who own a passport.

But that is me. I dont feel that I am more worldly at 21 than 92% of America.

Glad to see someone stick up for the US.

Guess I'm part of that small 8% who own a passport and know where GB is.

I'm worldly!

I got to go to France for my 18th BD and we went through Paris, Nice, Marsee... we stopped over at Monte Carlo for a bit.

The survey of some 2000+ British adults.
And yes I googled it.



Stranger than fiction: Disraeli, Hitler and the Cold War

Real people that some believe never existed
Ethelred the Unready King of England 978 to 1016 - 63 per cent
William Wallace 13th-century Scottish hero - 42 per cent
Benjamin Disraeli Prime minister and founder of the modern Tory party - 40 per cent
Genghis Khan, Mongol conqueror - 38 per cent
Benito Mussolini, Fascist dictator, 33 per cent
Adolf Hitler - 11 per cent
Winston Churchill - 9 per cent

Real events some people believe never took place
Battle of the Bulge 52 per cent
Battle of Little Big Horn Scene of Custer's last stand - 48 per cent
Hundred Years' War 44 per cent
Cold War - 32 per cent
Battle of Hastings, 15 per cent

Fictional characters who we believe were real
King Arthur , mythical monarch of the Round Table - 57 per cent
Robin Hood - 27 per cent
Conan the Barbarian - 5 per cent
Richard Sharpe , fictional cad and warrior - 3 per cent
Edmund Blackadder - 1 per cent
Xena Warrior Princess - 1 per cent

Fictional events that we believe did take place
War of the Worlds , Martian invasion - 6 per cent
Battle of Helms Deep , Rings Trilogy - The Two Towers - 3 per cent
Battle of Endor , The Return of the Jedi - 2 per cent
Planet of the Apes , the apes rule Earth - 1 per cent
Battlestar Galactica , the defeat of humanity by cyborgs - 1 per cent

[Betheny]

Anything anyone googles is automatically invalidated.

Originally posted by 3704558
Is there a link to that Moore article?

I was wrong it was in the "Mirror"
you can find the whole story of Moore bashing america here Click me (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13583626_method=full_siteid=50143 _headline=-THE-AWKWARD-CONSCIENCE-OF-A-NATION-name_page.html)

[Back]

Unfortunately, I have news for you. The majority of the people in this world are uneducated or worldly. This makes them easy to manipulate.

Case in point, Bill O'Riely's ratings. He's an intelligence vacuum. After having watched his show the past few days, I can see where so much bullshit is coming directly from. Tonight he was slamming Canadians and French.

FOX, America's Network? Don't include me and don't even try to call me unpatriotic just because some ad exec decided to use the word America in the phrase.

Everythings biased.

Originally posted by Maimara
Anything anyone googles is automatically invalidated.

I will be sure to use a different search engine to find what people mention so it is not invalidated.
Or I an be like Tamral and make things up, its up to you.

[Betheny]

You could just stop being a dumbass and express an opinion instead of adopting someone else's that you found on the Internet.

[Artha]

Case in point, Bill O'Riely's ratings.

I think this might be due, in part, to him being the only loud conservative in the news. The other stations are at least a tad center of left. The fact that Fox is the only conservative one probably contributes to their ratings.

Maimara I am lost. You made such a issue of my posts towards Tamral, and even requested that they be removed and a apology given. Yet after I remove them and send you a u2u to inform you that it was done, and to mention if you wished it you should take them out of your quotes of me as well, you did nothing. I am only left to assume that you were just making a scene and picking a fight with me, and not really caring about what I said to Tamral.


Also Maimara, I had no opinion to express, I just posted the results to a Poll mentioned by delirium. I also do not want to go around asking 2,000 British people about their history. I have better things to do with my time.
I would also point to the start of this thread, where you will notice that I expressed an <insert dramatic pause and an audible gasp> opinion.

[Edited on 7-9-2004 by The Edine]

[Betheny]

So... hang on.

When you decide you're tired of looking like the jackass you are, I'm supposed to go along with it and help you cover your ass?

Oh.. honey, I don't think so.

I'll remove them if and when the moderator of this forum asks me to. Until then, I'm content to expose you for you.

[Blazing247]

Bill O'Reilly wasn't bad for awhile, in the same vein that Howard Stern wasn't bad for awhile. There comes a point in time where enough is enough, though.

Thats fine By me Maimara, I removed them because of your, and one other poster on the board’s personal request. Did you know that most of the people here already think I am a jackass? The fact that others may think the same thing means little to me.

They also wont be removed because they do not violate TOS, or they would have been taken down already.

Next time you request something be removed, you should stick with your request. Somewhat hypocritical otherwise no?

[Betheny]

Not hypocritical, since if I said something that offended someone and they asked me to remove it, I would, without beating my chest and drooling like a rabid gorilla, and THEN deciding to take it down, after I had already done the damage.

[Wezas]

Personally, I don't really see a problem with only 8% of americans owning a passport.

Not all americans can afford to go overseas. *Overseas* being the main point there. We aren't like other european countries. They need passports to "go over the boarder" into certain other neighboring countries. Countries connected by land. What are our options? Canada? Mexico?

London -> Paris is 213 miles. (closer then a trip from Washington DC -> Raleigh NC)
London -> Rome is 897 miles. (about the distance from New York City to Atlanta, GA)

If we had countries that close to us that were worth going to (No offense to Mexico) I'm sure alot more people would have passports.

It was not your request as much as the other person. I have a greater respect for them. We discussed it and I decided after our conversation that I should take it down, for the benefit of the unnamed person that was brought up aside from Tamral.


Maimara, what damage did you do? I'm really lost in that, if anything leaving it up would add to my mystique. :)

[Betheny]

I didn't do the damage, you did...

Wow...

Just nevermind, mmk?

Originally posted by Maimara
Not hypocritical, since if I said something that offended someone and they asked me to remove it, I would, without beating my chest and drooling like a rabid gorilla, and THEN deciding to take it down, after I had already done the damage.

Okay Maimara. :?:

[xShadowMerchantx]

Originally posted by Maimara
You could just stop being a dumbass and express an opinion instead of adopting someone else's that you found on the Internet.

Will you have my baby?

[Betheny]

Originally posted by The Edine

Originally posted by Maimara
Not hypocritical, since if I said something that offended someone and they asked me to remove it, I would, without beating my chest and drooling like a rabid gorilla, and THEN deciding to take it down,[ after I had already done the damage.

Okay Maimara. :?:

Still confused?

Nope I get it now.

[Betheny]

Originally posted by xShadowMerchantx

Originally posted by Maimara
You could just stop being a dumbass and express an opinion instead of adopting someone else's that you found on the Internet.

Will you have my baby?

GOOD GOD NO.:puke::asshole:

[Atlanteax]

Originally posted by Maimara

Originally posted by xShadowMerchantx

Originally posted by Maimara
You could just stop being a dumbass and express an opinion instead of adopting someone else's that you found on the Internet.

Will you have my baby?

GOOD GOD NO.:puke::asshole:

I think secretly, Maimara :heart: him... :lol:

[Betheny]

I'd rather rip out my uterus and make haggis with it.

anyone else hungry?

[longshot]

Originally posted by The Edine
Truth?
I seem to be the opposite of everything he said. I must be in the 40% of people who know where Great Britain is on the map, as well as I a part of the 8% who own a passport.

But that is me. I dont feel that I am more worldly at 21 than 92% of America.


Look, you need to understand this.

You have the absolute worst logic I have ever heard.

You might cut and paste your posts from Word now, but there is no feature on Word that I know yet that can put a little squiggly line underneath what you wrote and say, "This sounds retarded. Please Revise".

You as a single person are not representative of the general American population.

Read that again at least five times.

Your opinion that "I seem to be the opposite of everything he said." and that "You don't feel anymore worldly" are simply your opinion.

The fact that you feel more worldly has NO bearing on the validity of the results of the given survey.

None.

This is an inductive fallacy. You are using an unrepresentative sample (you) to disprove an argument.

There are many others, but I have a party to go to. I just don't have time to point out again how poor your thinking is.

I've decided to be kind and include a link for you.

It deals with logical fallacies. You should be able to recognize the many that you use.

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Be sure to read "straw man" at least 50-60 times, as it seems to trip you up at least once a day.

[Edited on 7-9-2004 by longshot]

[Edited on 7-9-2004 by longshot]

[theotherjohn]

I have several problems with Moore:

he is to ugly to have his face posted every where

he has no problem using the press to take the stupid americans dollar


have I mentioned he is to ugly to be seen all the time

[Back]

Records of Bush's military service "accidently" destroyed. (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-RTO-rontz&idq=/ff/story/0002%2F20040709%2F0645031861.htm&sc=rontz&photoid= 20040707MISW108)

Why am I not suprised.

Originally posted by longshot

You as a single person are not representative of the general American population.
No shit Sherlock, note the use of the word I in my OPINION after the comments.




Your opinion that "I seem to be the opposite of everything he said." and that "You don't feel anymore worldly" are simply your opinion.
Okay, so let me get this strait, you give me shit for posting articles and saying I agree with them and that I dont have an opinion on anything, now I'm getting shit because I gave my opinion, make up your fucking mind already.


The fact that you feel more worldly has NO bearing on the validity of the results of the given survey.
The fact that I DON'T feel more worldly you mean right?



I've decided to be kind and include a link for you.
OMG I bet you googled it! It's Not Valid because you didn’t do the research yourself!!!11


Longshot, There are many stupid people across the whole world, The results of the research that Michael Moore stated do not have as much meaning to me as the fact that Michael Moore goes around telling us how PRO-American he is, how big of a patriot he is, how much he loves our country, yet he in the foreign press says things like that. He degrades Americans every chance he gets. I was amused at the fact that he left the one stereotype out that relates to him. People outside of America look at us as lazy, FAT, and stupid, which one of those apply to Moore in your mind? I would say all three but I’m sure you can find one.

If he is going to insult us using their own propaganda don't you think that he should not skip over the parts that relate to him? Just to be fair and balanced of course.

Don't forget more than 1 in 10 British people thinks Hitler is a fictional character.

[Edited on 7-9-2004 by The Edine]

[Faent]

>>Anything anyone googles is automatically invalidated. -Maimara

Which explains why judges and lawyers use Google. The opinion you just expressed is moronic. Please start making sense.

http://news.com.com/2100-1032_3-5211658.html?tag=nefd.lede

>>I agree. I mean, he still thinks being a walmart eyeglass doctor's cashier/secretary/fitter qualifies him as part of the medical profession. -Tamral

>>I would suggest you taking that comment down and apologizing, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what Tamral is, h as, was, and will say. EVer. Until he brings up his personal life, you need to shut the fuck up and sit down. -Maimara

I believe Tamral was the first person to make any remarks about anybody's personal life. Once again you demonstrate an inability to make sense.

Please start to make sense sometime in the near future.

-Scott

[Edited to remove some gratuitous insults.]

[Edited on 7-9-2004 by Faent]

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by GSTamral

Michael Moore is a fucknut who made up every lie in the book in Bowling for Columbine and put it on a screen and called it a documentary.

Since I have seen and own said movie, please do point out what he lied about?

I agree that Moore's work is slanted, but don't espouse that he uses lies and propaganda. The truth, however slanted in his work, is highly effective. It makes people that hold the opposite point of view cry foul whenever a fact is pointed out.

Additionally, Moore was quoting a collegiate study I believe, he was not quoting his own survey.

Refer to Longshot's post about one not being indicative of one's own demographic.

Yay for you if you don't fit into the quoted statistic. I'm still at a loss when I attempt to figure out why you posted it anyway. Do you think MM is the only US citizen outside of the borders that points out how stupid we as a nation are? Do you think people in Brittan were the only people in the world that didn't know it?

He was pointing out educational deficiencies for a reason. It is easier to control the uneducated and poor through fear. The point was that our youth are ignorant of the world outside of their own towns and neighborhoods and that is being exploited.

If you haven't seen his latest flick to catch the George Orwell quote at the end, I suggest you read some Orwell and then take a good hard look at our government.

I challenge anyone who says his work is full of lies and propaganda to point out what the lies are and where the propaganda is.

We have already gone over it Tsa'ah, in other threads, if you wish to see the multiple lies and abundant propaganda you are free to look up the therads on these boards.


I challenge anyone who says his work is full of lies and propaganda to point out what the lies are and where the propaganda is.

Now for the real amusing part. Do you not give me shit if I say things like that? Lets make sure you recall yourself doing this here the next time you decide to comment on my doing so.

[Tsa`ah]

I give you shit when you are disproved and refuse to accept that you indeed were disproved.

This is a simple task.

Watch his movies, read his books, and then come back and post (with support) what he lied about and what propaganda he is pushing.

It should be a very simple effort if he lies, no?

[Skirmisher]

Well I went and saw Fahrenheit 9/11 this last week, so I'll comment on some of it.

I consider myself a liberal, definitely tend to vote democratic and will be voting for Kerry this election, so I don't have any reason to want to pick apart Moore.

I think the movie brings up some extremely valid points, points that however he then helps to dull with his own overzealousness and extreme bias.

The extent of interaction and investment in the Bush family by the Saudi royal family for some 20 plus years is to me QUITE troubling.


Both the number and the high level of posts assigned by the Bush administration to people who ALSO made much of their careers on Saudi money is at least as troubling.

He then goes and makes the error of dulling what should be a master stroke by including such things as the asking of the Senators and Congressmen about having children sign up for the armed forces in a grandstanding move that the one Congressman told him that he did in fact have i beleive a nephew serving in the armed forces, but that of course was not shown.

Yet when he was asking the people on the street he asked about anyone they knew who was in the military, brothers sisters, cousins, uncles...when he so wishes, extended familes count, when he does not, they do not. How convenient.

And perhaps worse in my eyes...was the image he portrayed in Iraq before the US military action. Oh, in his Iraq, the children all fly kites and ride bycicles and laugh and play....the people all are dressed nice and smiling happily attending weddings...sitting at lovely roadside cafes as if it were Paris in the summer...truly an idyllic place. Only the devil himself would intrude there according to the image Moore displays. Of course there are going to be some happy people, but the reality is not that and we can always ask the Kurds about how good life was under Saddam.

So, my problem is that I felt he made a strong case with the information about the ties he and his father have with the Saudi family to raise a heck of alot of eyebrows, it sure did mine. Unfortunately, in his hatred for GW Bush he was willing to lie a bit if thats what it took.

I think thats too bad as it just gives the supporters of Bush that bit of ground to point at the things he "embellished" as i'm sure he would term it, or lie as I would call it and then say well if he lied about this maybe he lied about alot more.

He shot himself in the foot and took away from what I found overall to be an interesting bit of research.:(

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
I challenge anyone who says his work is full of lies and propaganda to point out what the lies are and where the propaganda is. Bowling for Columbine, Charlton Heston interview.

Specifically: When he (Moore) asks Heston why he went to Flint after the community had just gone through the Kayla Rolland shooting. Heston acts confused. Partly because he was there 8 months later, and partly because he has fucking Alzheimer's which makes it fucking hard to call people when they fucking lie to your face.

edit: it was too big

[Edited on 7-9-2004 by Latrinsorm]

As an official committeeman for the Independence party (See: Idiot,) I shall hereby be voting for whoever my superiors tell me to in an act of non-beneficial patronage.

[Skirmisher]

Well sorry, the interview may not have been all buddy buddy, lets not try to portray Heston as anything less than the tool he is.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Well sorry, the interview may not have been all buddy buddy, lets not try to portray Heston as anything less than the tool he is. The challenge was: show where Moore lied. Heston's personality/politics is completely irrelevant. Unless it's ok to treat people who disagree with you as less than people.

[Skirmisher]

Point to you.

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
I give you shit when you are disproved and refuse to accept that you indeed were disproved.

This is a simple task.

Watch his movies, read his books, and then come back and post (with support) what he lied about and what propaganda he is pushing.

It should be a very simple effort if he lies, no?

As I have also stated before, I do not plan on going to see the movie until my money will not go into his pocket.
I will not support his eating habbits.

It's not that.

I just think Heston parading around supporting pro-gun laws after kids were shooting each other down was fucking nauseating.

Also, like it or not, Heston's personality did not require much miffing by Moore, he showed himself for the "guy" that guy is.

The sweetest irony would be if, some day, mister Hefton would become the victim of a household gun safety accident. Except for the fact that he's too Reaganish in his mind-state to find the 9mm.

They had to have the convention there. It was required by federal law.

Edit: not there specificly but they had to hold a convention on that day and had no time to move it elsewhere

[Edited on 7-9-2004 by The Edine]

[Back]

Originally posted by The Edine
We have already gone over it Tsa'ah, in other threads, if you wish to see the multiple lies and abundant propaganda you are free to look up the therads on these boards.

Here is the previous discussion. (http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=7743)

There has yet to be anyone to disprove any of the facts in the movie. Repeat, facts. Opinions are not facts.

It surpises me how so many people yell about an independant film maker with no political status what-so-ever, when our own administration, on an almost daily basis, continues to manipulate, distort, or even hide the truth. No one is dying over this movie.

The use of the golfing clip in the movie backlash.

[Back]

Originally posted by The Edine
The use of the golfing clip in the movie backlash.

You haven't even seen it.

But I'll humor you. Explain to me and the good people here how a clip of Bush playing golf invalidates the 9-11 Commissions report's, or, the Senate Intelligence Committee's findings, or the documented finnancial ties between the Carlyle Group and Saudi Arabia and so on and so forth...

[DeV]

Originally posted by The Edine
As I have also stated before, I do not plan on going to see the movie until my money will not go into his pocket.
I will not support his eating habbits. I fail to see how you can make a valid argument for or against when you've vowed not to see the film. :shrug: Unless your basing your current opinions off of previous attempts at 'manipulation' on the part of Mr. Moore.

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by The Edine
The use of the golfing clip in the movie backlash.

You haven't even seen it.

But I'll humor you. Explain to me and the good people here how a clip of Bush playing golf invalidates the 9-11 Commissions report's, or, the Senate Intelligence Committee's findings
These to will take me the least amount of time to respond to right off the bat.

Bush was found not at fault for the intelligence errors, in both reports.
(of course it depends on the spin) but the wording of the reports finds the error in the Intelligence comunity, not Bush making things up.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
I just think Heston parading around supporting pro-gun laws after kids were shooting each other down was fucking nauseating.Please, please, PLEASE read the transcript of Heston's speech at Columbine.

http://www.freedaily.com/articles/990504n1.html

Wow Latrinsorm, is that his actual speech post Columbine?

If so, there are more inept excuses in that than a spouse caught cheating.

WTF is he doing making chalk talk about fighting in vietnam, I interpret this as not only irrelevant to the shootings, but bragadocious in the face of the tragedy.

Read it carefully, he justifies it as being a "hometown," excuses, excuses, sickening.


P.S. I am not a democrat or Repub.

[Skirmisher]

What I see as is what I almost always see is the NRA not coming out and simply condeming the tragedy but worrying about covering it's own ass.

And just to be clear, I take issue with the leadership of the NRA, not every single member. Just as I took issue with the Catholic Church leadership for not doing more to stop abusive priests, without condeming every catholic everywhere.

I hate that being used as the first line of defense by the NRA, how when i criticize NRA policy I think all thier members are awful or some such garbage. Its an old and tired argument that simply is not true.

:yeahthat:

[Back]

Originally posted by The Edine
These to will take me the least amount of time to respond to right off the bat.

Bush was found not at fault for the intelligence errors, in both reports.
(of course it depends on the spin) but the wording of the reports finds the error in the Intelligence comunity, not Bush making things up.

Ok, my throwing the Senate Intelligence Committee stuff in there was iffy. Grant you that. But the thing about the 9-11 commission still stands. Their findings are part of the facts. Also, the irrefutable fact that the administration stonewalled forming the commission, let alone testifying. Rice? Bush needing Cheney there with him when he finally agreed?

I have to admit that this has got me to thinking... how much Bush is involved. And if the movie is not only a criticism of Bush, but his entire administration. But if he isn't involved, who the hell is making the decisions? The people he has surrounded himself with. He still bears responsibility.

Tenant has bowed out, not suprising since everyone high up in the administration points to and has publically admitted there being false intelligence.

With the Senate Intelligence Committee's findings though, what are you going to tell the families of the over 10,000 Iraqi civilians, women and children included, who've died? Whoops, we made a mistake?

It gets uglier each and every day.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Wow Latrinsorm, is that his actual speech post Columbine?I wasn't there, but I'm reasonably certain it is.
WTF is he doing making chalk talk about fighting in vietnam, I interpret this as not only irrelevant to the shootings, but bragadocious in the face of the tragedy.What he's doing is pointing out that to call him unAmerican is stupid because he put his life on the line for America. And to tell him not to come to Littleton, Colorado rubs him the wrong way, because he feels being American is "whatever our differences, we are respectful of one another and we stand united, especially in adversity."
Read it carefully, he justifies it as being a "hometown," excuses, excuses, sickening.I don't really know what that statement is supposed to mean. If by "it", you mean "holding the convention in Columbine", I don't follow. It's not like he came in there, screamed out his catch phrase, fired a rifle in the air, and signed up a bunch of rednecks. I should probably get a clarification before I go any further, as fun as wild supposition is. ;)

Show me one line where Heston is "supporting pro-gun laws".

And a question for you, Stan. Let's say there was a drunk driving incident that killed 4 kids. Shortly thereafter, MADD holds a convention in the town. Would you hold the head of MADD in a similar amount of contempt?

Finally, for Skirm. A paragraph I find particularly relevant: "Still they say don't come here. I guess what saddens me the most is how that suggests complicity. It implies that you and I and 80 million honest gun owners are somehow to blame, that we don't care. We don't care as much as they do, or that we don't deserve to be as shocked and horrified as every other soul in America mourning for the people of Littleton."

And a question for you, Stan. Let's say there was a drunk driving incident that killed 4 kids. Shortly thereafter, MADD holds a convention in the town. Would you hold the head of MADD in a similar amount of contempt?

Okay. Look, no. But... THAT IS COMPLETELY TWISTED LOGIC! If someone who actually stood for something that was the counterblast of the fundamentals of why someone would be killed by an incident like this, I would be all for it.

The NRA, in their countless endevours, put most of the guns out their, enabling those psychotic little children to get their paws on it, hence, something I would equivocate to a negative stance that the NRA is taking.

And I don't really care about pointing him out for being unAmerican, someone who would mix American "ideals" after the incident is completely missing the point, being, that the MEMBERS of the group (non-federal affiliated) belonging to the foundation that manufactured weapons that killed 9 children on april 20th, would have the nuts to fucking show up at the rally. That's the point.

[Ravenstorm]

Just a note to add:

While the commission did indeed find that there was a massive intelligence failure (translation: total garbage with almost no basis in reality), there is still an ongoing investigation into whether or not the administration 'encouraged' an interpretation that would be favorable to invading Iraq.

The results of that however won't become available till... guesses anyone? Right. After the election. I looked for news reports mentioning this but couldn't find any since it's more an addendum to the actual story about the commission's findings. However, NBC news stated it quite clearly on tv.

Raven

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Okay. Look, no. But... THAT IS COMPLETELY TWISTED LOGIC!From the NRA Foundation website, Stan.

"These activities are designed to promote firearms and hunting safety, to enhance marksmanship skills of those participating in the shooting sports, and to educate the general public about firearms in their historic, technological and artistic context."

I couldn't find anything that said "We manufacture guns for everyone, regardless of training".

[longshot]

Originally posted by The Edine




Your opinion that "I seem to be the opposite of everything he said." and that "You don't feel anymore worldly" are simply your opinion.
Okay, so let me get this strait, you give me shit for posting articles and saying I agree with them and that I dont have an opinion on anything, now I'm getting shit because I gave my opinion, make up your fucking mind already.

[Edited on 7-9-2004 by The Edine]


I'll make it easy for you.

Let's say for example that 75% of American's are obese.

I will make the following argument using your pre-school level thinking.

I am skinny, and I don't feel that I'm skinnier than 75% of people in America.

Therefore, Michael Moore is lying and a giant piece of shit.

You get no points for having an opinion if it's based off of false conclusions drawn from faultly logic.

Read that last part several times. This way, next time I point out why I take issue with what you say, you will understand.

I'm simply pointing out how horrible your thinking is. There's no need for me to make up my mind on how you post... you still have no clue how to form a coherent argument. None.

There is no logic function on Word yet.

Sorry for you.


Originally posted by The Edine
Longshot, There are many stupid people across the whole world, The results of the research that Michael Moore stated do not have as much meaning to me as the fact that Michael Moore goes around telling us how PRO-American he is, how big of a patriot he is, how much he loves our country, yet he in the foreign press says things like that.

It shouldn't matter that it's said to foreign press. Most Americans have a terrible understsanding of international affairs. He's trying to draw attention to the problem in hopes that the light he shines on it will at least allow people to think about what he says. Even if all it does is start a debate, it will help lead to recognition of the problem in the public conciousness, which is the first to solving a problem.



Originally posted by The Edine
He degrades Americans every chance he gets. I was amused at the fact that he left the one stereotype out that relates to him. People outside of America look at us as lazy, FAT, and stupid, which one of those apply to Moore in your mind? I would say all three but I’m sure you can find one.

If he is going to insult us using their own propaganda don't you think that he should not skip over the parts that relate to him? Just to be fair and balanced of course.

Don't forget more than 1 in 10 British people thinks Hitler is a fictional character.


So you take issue that in your opinion, he insults Americans. To me, and a lot of other people, being complacent would be doing more harm. He's trying to raise awareness. You don't agree with his methods. Fine. You don't have to. That doesn't mean that he's lying though.

After that, you list many things here which have no bearing on the argument. Your ad hominem attack makes you sound like you have very little to go on, and the rest of the information you listed is well outside the scope of what's being discussed.

I won't forget that about British people... thanks Edine. It has zero relationship to what Moore said about Americans. None.

I don't even like Michael Moore, and it's pretty easy to say bad things about him, but you can't even do that right.

Nice work!

Longshot, are you really missing the point that much?
He ONLY says the shit in the foreign press. If he was all about making us aware, he would be glad to say the things to the American press. Instead he prances around touting his patriotism here, and as soon as he is overseas he turns and insults all Americans every chance he gets.

[longshot]

Originally posted by The Edine

He ONLY says the shit in the foreign press. If he was all about making us aware, he would be glad to say the things to the American press. Instead he prances around touting his patriotism here, and as soon as he is overseas he turns and insults all Americans every chance he gets.

I personally don't read enough of what he says to be able to say that he's never said such things to the American press.

You see what he says as insulting, and I don't.

Frankly, it's the truth.

By bringing up the "enforced ingnorance", he's trying to bring the problem to the public conciousness. People in the rest of the world have a collective, "What the fuck are they thinking??" attitude right now. Moore is trying to explain why. It is this enforced ignorance that has allowed us to be manipulated into a very serious and dangerous situation.

He thinks calling attention to this is patriotic. He thinks complacency is not. You obviously disagree.


Originally posted by The Edine
Longshot, are you really missing the point that much?

This is nowhere close to the original argument that you stated.

You said what he said is incorrect because, "I seem to be different".

This was after veiled references to Hezbollah. go back to page 1. It's all there.

I understand you're sunburned. I really hope you get better.

I don't mean to be a prick when I call you out, but you gotta use some better logic than this.

It's Michael Moore. It's an easy target, and you blew it.

[Edited on 7-10-2004 by longshot]

You dont live here so I have to leave it to ignorance.

[Tsa`ah]

What does living in Chicago have to do with anything?

In America smart guy. If you watch the news you would see Moore yelling how patriotic he is. Longshot is not In america he is in Japan.

[Kriztian]

Michael Moore has ripped on the current administration on our own turf countless times (Oscars, anyone?). He's also ripped on the American public for being what we are: provincial, largely ignorant and apathetic about voting.

The forefathers would be exceedingly proud, methinks. You cannot deny that. Moore is a patriot in my book.

[Delirium]

"They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet ...


Michael Moore has ripped on the current administration on our own turf countless times (Oscars, anyone?). He's also ripped on the American public for being what we are: provincial, largely ignorant and apathetic about voting.

Not really the same thing though is it? In the first he is using a general "they" and in your quote he is siting specific people and when he does generalize he points at a specific way.

As for it not mattering that he is saying it to foreign press i disagree. Did you think Bestatte was trying to better the Player's Corner when she said she laughed at our stupidity here with friends in chat somewhere else? Blasting your own country overseas trying to fit in or whatever is pathetic. If he truly was a patriot he would have the nuts to say it in a US interview how stupid all we americans are in his view. He is like that backstabbing friend kids have when they are in grade school. Polite and nice to your face and then you find out they are telling everyone you are a shitbag behind your back. Thats not something to admire at all. He is a coward.

[Chadj]

<<"They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet ...>>

Truth hurts, anyone? :P

[Kriztian]

Originally posted by Delirium

"They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet ...


Michael Moore has ripped on the current administration on our own turf countless times (Oscars, anyone?). He's also ripped on the American public for being what we are: provincial, largely ignorant and apathetic about voting.

Not really the same thing though is it? In the first he is using a general "they" and in your quote he is siting specific people and when he does generalize he points at a specific way.

As for it not mattering that he is saying it to foreign press i disagree. Did you think Bestatte was trying to better the Player's Corner when she said she laughed at our stupidity here with friends in chat somewhere else? Blasting your own country overseas trying to fit in or whatever is pathetic. If he truly was a patriot he would have the nuts to say it in a US interview how stupid all we americans are in his view. He is like that backstabbing friend kids have when they are in grade school. Polite and nice to your face and then you find out they are telling everyone you are a shitbag behind your back. Thats not something to admire at all. He is a coward.

Only he isn't inconsistent at all. Having read his books, he's been consistent about how Americans are naive and gullible since day one. I won't bother with specific quotes, since 'Dude, Where's My Country?' is replete with them. To take two instances where it might -seem- like he's being hypocritical isn't really doing him justice. He'd just as soon say what he said on our own shores as he would to the foreign press. That's not a coward at all.

[Chadj]

<<If he truly was a patriot he would have the nuts to say it in a US interview how stupid all we americans are in his view.>>

Read one of his books. Who needs to tell the press when it's in ones writing? Before you attempt to blast someone, try to at least have SOME knowledge about what you are blasting them for. Anything less would make you seem stupid.

[imported_Kranar]

<< Who needs to tell the press when it's in ones writing? >>

Anyone who thinks Michael sends a different message over the gullability and ignorance of Americans overseas than at home has obviously never seen an American interview of Michael Moore.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Chadj
<<"They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet ...>>

Truth hurts, anyone? :P

Chadj, best back your little self on up.

We can bash ourselves you are not allowed however.

Don't make me hurt you.:axe:

[Skirmisher]

Kranar, I think you are mistaken. The message is the same, but the words used are different.

He wants to sell tickets to his movie after all. Lets be real here.

[imported_Kranar]

<< The message is the same, but the words used are different. >>

You can't blame an individual for speaking in a different manner to different audiences. If the message is the same, that's what counts. Michael Moore is not only entitled, but recommended to communicate his message in the most effective manner he can.

What I don’t get is this, if you look around, even right in front of you at your computer. Who makes the chip that allows it to run? Who created most of the programs that you use every day? The French? The English?
Look at your car, where did it get its roots?
Go to your doctor, where does most of the medical research come from to allow you to live longer. I could go on and on but you get the point.

One of the great things for others that has come from our capitalistic way of life, is that we make the advancements <not all of course but a vast majority> and allow the rest of the world economy to benefit from them by manufacturing them for us. We are the largest consumer of just about everything

We may not have the best school system <which I blame on teachers unions but that’s another matter>, we may not be the most worldly, we may even be arrogant, But sit back and think about it, where would you be without us?

Where would the world be without America keeping your economy alive?
Where would the world be without America keeping your country free of invasion?
Where would the world be without America coming to the aid of countries in need?

You may dislike us, our ways, our customs, you may think us stupid, ignorant, fat, and lazy, you may even think that you're better than us, but in the end sit back and think about who fights for the freedom you desire. Your country like ours would never put another before it.

In America, America comes first, our safety, our economy, our people, are more important to us than yours. If along the way we are able to aid you, we will and we do. Just don’t forget that whenever you were in need, we were there. So either help us, as we do you in your times of need, or get out of the way.

[Edited on 7-10-2004 by The Edine]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Kranar
Anyone who thinks Michael sends a different message over the gullability and ignorance of Americans overseas than at home has obviously never seen an American interview of Michael Moore. I saw him on the Daily Show, and I didn't hear that message at all. Mainly his message was (I am seriously not exaggerating this) "I lie in my movies, Bush sucks, people here are cool."

[Valthissa]

One could deduce from Mr. Moore's behavior over the years that he is only interested in accumulating personal wealth and he will do anything required to achieve that goal.

C/Valth

[Chadj]

<<What I don’t get is this, if you look around, even right in front of you at your computer. Who makes the chip that allows it to run? Who created most of the programs that you use every day? The French? The English? >>


Where would america be without europe? Thats right. It wouldn't exist :).

Furthermore, the US insists on taking claims of things it did not invent. The one that I can remember off hand (although there are quite a few..) is the telephone. Purely canadian. (Basketball is also canadian, but i'm not all that proud of that). There are a whole lot of other ones, but at this time, I can't remember em.

Every country has contributed something, be it large or small, to the world. So don't pull that "We did everything" card.

Your post had little to do with anything, Edine. Oh, and by the way,

<<We are the largest consumer of just about everything>>

Way to call yourselves fat O_o.

[Chadj]

Originally posted by Valthissa
One could deduce from Mr. Moore's behavior over the years that he is only interested in accumulating personal wealth and he will do anything required to achieve that goal.

C/Valth

To my knowledge, he saw little money from Bowling for Columbine in comparison to how much it made.

Originally posted by Chadj
Where would america be without europe? Thats right. It wouldn't exist :).
Of course it would not, nor would canada.


Furthermore, the US insists on taking claims of things it did not invent. The one that I can remember off hand (although there are quite a few..) is the telephone. Purely canadian.
I am somewhat lost here. Mr. Bell was Scottish born, a U.S. citizen, and lived somewhat in Canada. The patents were american and the phone was introduced there so I dont see what you mean by that. ;)


Every country has contributed something, be it large or small, to the world. So don't pull that "We did everything" card. I did not say we did everything, so please reread the post.

[Chadj]

<<I am somewhat lost here. Mr. Bell was Scottish born, a U.S. citizen, and lived somewhat in Canada. The patents were american and the phone was introduced there so I dont see what you mean by that. >>

Recheck your sources on that.

<<I did not say we did everything, so please reread the post.>>

I do not need to re-read the post. I read it carefully the first time. You even stated that you WEREN'T hinting at that.The reality is, the mood and way you wrote your post, lead to make it seem that you WERE hinting at that.

Your post still had nothing to do with anything, and,

<<Of course it would not, nor would canada. >>

Yes we would. We are all eskimos who live in igloos. all of us. O_o

[Edited on 7-10-2004 by Chadj]

Theres no telling where America would have been without european intervention. The native americans, Aztecs and Mayans weren't actually dumbasses.

[Chadj]

Having taken a look on Google, I realize my interpretation was wrong considering this post. :). Thus, it was edited due to its pointlessness.

[Edited on 7-11-2004 by Chadj]

Chadj... you're a idiot.

Re-check your sources.

[Chadj]

Originally posted by The Edine
Chadj... you're a idiot.

Anything I claim is most likely true and factual, to the best of my knowledge (from some source or another), although I am always open to the truth. If you can give me what you consider the truth, try to give some facts, and I will gladly believe you. I do not fight or argue for my side. Merely for the truth.

As in my last post, I openly stated I know jack shit about that particular part of history.

Edine, when you come up with some facts, and I still fight against you, then perhaps at THAT time I will be an idiot. But untill you do come up with some solid stuff, I do not believe I am the lesser of us two.

[Edited on 7-11-2004 by Chadj]

[Chadj]

Originally posted by RangerD1
Re-check your sources.

Alas, in this case, I have basically none. So I will be sure to google it. Thanks :)

[imported_Kranar]

<< I saw him on the Daily Show, and I didn't hear that message at all. Mainly his message was (I am seriously not exaggerating this) "I lie in my movies, Bush sucks, people here are cool." >>

The only counter argument you could provide to what you quoted is if you heard Michael Moore say something that was inconsistent with the notion that Americans are gullible and ignorant.

I'm sure Michael Moore talks about many things, and I'm sure he talks about those many things in American interviews, but unless he is giving a message that is opposite to the one he mentions overseas, then he can not be called inconsistent.

[Edited on 7-11-2004 by Kranar]

[imported_Kranar]

Oh and to state my position... I don't think America is one thing, be it ignorant or strong. I think America emcompasses both, the problem is that the ignorant happen to use America for a lot of destruction and that ends up clouding much of the good things that America does for the world.

[Latrinsorm]

"people here are cool" was the relevant part there. Moore did a bit of playing to and generally buddying up with the crowd, the majority of whom I'm reasonably sure were Americans. Did he specifically say Americans were neither gullible nor ignorant? No.

Chadj: The Mayans kicked a lot of ass. The Aztecs, not so much.

[Betheny]

I love zombies.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by The Edine
Chadj... you're a idiot.

Have you met the kettle yet?

Next time you decide to call someone an idiot, make sure you do it with the proper grammar.

/end grammar police.

Taking the context of one interview (the daily show) and using that as a counterpoint is more than a stretch. After all Gallagher used to claim that only the top intellectuals attended his shows. It was a comedic gesture, just as Moore's comment was comedic and sucking up.

To Edine's comment about living in the US as opposed to longshot's living in Japan, what relevance does this have?

Your argument is once again wandering.

Aside from the Hesston interview where Moore implied that the NRA had just rallied shortly after the grade school shooting, although 8 months is not really a long stretch of time, I have yet to read any lies propagated by Moore.

It shouldn't be that hard should it? He is after all a liar.

[Valthissa]

Originally posted by Chadj

Originally posted by Valthissa
One could deduce from Mr. Moore's behavior over the years that he is only interested in accumulating personal wealth and he will do anything required to achieve that goal.

C/Valth

To my knowledge, he saw little money from Bowling for Columbine in comparison to how much it made.

you do realize that your response is not relevant to the assertion in my post?

by the way, I think his films are entertaining.

C/Valth

[Chadj]

Actually, Valth, my point was that he isn't in just for that goal, and wouldn't do anything to achieve that goal.

In my opinion.

[Skirmisher]

I agree with the general thrust of all his films that I have seen, just not in his execution of them.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Taking the context of one interview (the daily show) and using that as a counterpoint is more than a stretch.Yeah, but that's the only thing I watch. :( Unless Moore's about to show up on the Highlight Reel or Piper's Pit.
although 8 months is not really a long stretch of timeIf I said I got a job just after I graduated (in June), would you say I was telling the truth if it turned out I got a job in February?

More Moore lies, you say? Leaving aside the rest of the Heston interview (as I've already mentioned it), let's stick with BfC for awhile. Do you recall the Bush (Sr.) ad Michael Moore showed in the movie? The one about murderer Willie Horton that he (Bush) was using against Dukakis?

Funny thing, at the end of the ad is a subtitle that reads: "Willie Horton released. Then kills again." The damnedest thing, though, Willie Horton didn't kill anyone after he escaped (it's kind of tricky whether to call it releasing or escaping, but that's more a semantics thing that I'm not worried about). He assaulted two people and raped a woman, but he didn't kill anyone. You think a guy running for President would check up on these things, wouldn't you?

Well, he probably did. Because that subtitle was not part of the George Bush ad. Michael Moore took two different ads (one of which that wasn't even a Bush ad) and stuck them together, then made up a subtitle (that was incorrect!!) and threw it on the end. He made sure to leave the "paid for by the Bush campaign" thing in though.

Moore statement = Bush said this.
Truth = Bush did not say that.
Moore = Liar (again).

I encourage you (Tsa`ah and Chadj especially, but anyone else interested too) to purchase the book (I swear I am not making this up) "Michael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man".

[Chadj]

I will look into it :)

[Kefka]

http://www.webuser.co.uk/news/56254.html

Now you don't have to pay to see the movie. How is Moore unpatriotic?

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
While the commission did indeed find that there was a massive intelligence failure (translation: total garbage with almost no basis in reality), there is still an ongoing investigation into whether or not the administration 'encouraged' an interpretation that would be favorable to invading Iraq.

The results of that however won't become available till... guesses anyone? Right. After the election. I looked for news reports mentioning this but couldn't find any since it's more an addendum to the actual story about the commission's findings. However, NBC news stated it quite clearly on tv.


Just wanted to actually document the claim I made now I've found it in the news:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5412317/site/newsweek/


Though the Republican-led committee officially concluded that nobody ordered intelligence analysts to tailor their findings, the question of whether political pressure influenced intelligence decisions leading up to the war has yet to be laid to rest. There were repeated clashes between committee Democrats and Republicans on the issue. Some Democrats on the committee complained that the report gives an incomplete and inaccurate picture of what really happened, since Republicans insisted on taking up the damaging topic of pressure in a second report—to be issued after the presidential election.

Raven

[Delirium]

Only he isn't inconsistent at all. Having read his books, he's been consistent about how Americans are naive and gullible since day one. I won't bother with specific quotes, since 'Dude, Where's My Country?' is replete with them. To take two instances where it might -seem- like he's being hypocritical isn't really doing him justice. He'd just as soon say what he said on our own shores as he would to the foreign press. That's not a coward at all.

Good point as ive never read any of his books. Does he actually say americans are stupid without pointing to specific areas though? If he does i stand corrected.


<< The message is the same, but the words used are different. >>

You can't blame an individual for speaking in a different manner to different audiences. If the message is the same, that's what counts. Michael Moore is not only entitled, but recommended to communicate his message in the most effective manner he can.

If i said Kranar is ignorant about tying his shoes left handed here and then on Klaives board said Kranar is the biggest dumbass on earth id say im saying two different things. Technically i guess im saying you are stupid in both situations but in reality one can be stupid when it comes to something and not be stupid generally.

[imported_Kranar]

<< Now you don't have to pay to see the movie. How is Moore unpatriotic? >>

Just comes to show how ignorant the people are who claim Michael Moore is simply out to get money.

He doesn't make that much cash off of his films since he sells them to other companies who own the rights to his movies, and furthermore he donates a lot of his profits to civil liberty charities.

[Delirium]

Now you don't have to pay to see the movie.

I read the article and went to the site they pointed at to get the movie free and couldnt find it. Have a link where i can download it free legally? Thanks.

[Scott]

Originally posted by Kranar
<< Now you don't have to pay to see the movie. How is Moore unpatriotic? >>

Just comes to show how ignorant the people are who claim Michael Moore is simply out to get money.

He doesn't make that much cash off of his films since he sells them to other companies who own the rights to his movies, and furthermore he donates a lot of his profits to civil liberty charities.

So techniqually, if he doesn't have the rights to the movies, he doesn't have a right to say people can download it? Or better yet, he doesn't make money from the people who see it in theaters so he really doesn't care if they watch it in theaters or whether they watch it on their computer?

This isn't like an arguement or anything, I'm just wondering.

[imported_Kranar]

<< So techniqually, if he doesn't have the rights to the movies, he doesn't have a right to say people can download it? >>

That's true. It's irrelevent whether or not an artist cares if their song or movie is being transferred on the internet. The rights to this film are owned by Lion Gates and it's their choice. Michael Moore just says that he doesn't care, but yeah, it's not up to him.

In light of Michael Moore's opinion, Lion Gate's has decided not to take action against the distribution of this film online at this time.

<< Or better yet, he doesn't make money from the people who see it in theaters so he really doesn't care if they watch it in theaters or whether they watch it on their computer? >>

In general, a director does not receive profits from their movie. However, Michael Moore's contract allows him to receive a share of the profits from this movie.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Delirium

If i said Kranar is ignorant about tying his shoes left handed here and then on Klaives board said Kranar is the biggest dumbass on earth id say im saying two different things. Technically i guess im saying you are stupid in both situations but in reality one can be stupid when it comes to something and not be stupid generally.

The glaring difference is that you are changing to context of your statement. Were you to say "That fucking tard Kranar can't tie his own fucking shoes left handed." Then that would fit into the mold of your original statement.

Moore specifically points out where we are lacking whenever he speaks.

Education
Health-care
Employment
Equal rights

He then elaborates on why these deficiencies exist and why the are not going away .... exploitation.

Moore isn't saying anything different to the foreign press, you just can't grasp that for some reason.

[imported_Kranar]

<< If i said Kranar is ignorant about tying his shoes left handed here >>

T'is true... t'is true...

:(

[GSTamral]

<<
Moore specifically points out where we are lacking whenever he speaks.

Education
Health-care
Employment
Equal rights
>>

ok, I'd like to make some points on this one.

Education. Traditionally conservative states are far ahead of liberal ones when it comes to measures of standardized tests and general aptitude of high school seniors. Why is this? Because traditionally conservative agendas have a much higher social burden of responsibility on the parents. Hate to break it to Michael Moore, but throwing money at the school system won't accomplish anything. In fact, evidence has suggested that holding teachers to be more responsible for not just collecting a salary and claiming tenure does more good than simply putting more money into a system that still cannot possibly compete salary wise for the top minds with the private sector. Base teacher raises on the level of improvement in the children (not sheer results) and you'll see more happen than by simply giving schools money.

Health Care:
I'm all for a more socialized health care system that provides better medical care for patients. However, in order to accomplish that, we also need a statute of limitations on lawsuits. Otherwise, government managed health care cannot work. When we can put limitations on lawsuit awards, and limit lawsuits in general, then we can make more progress towards socializing this structure. The liberal agenda of affordable health care and unlimited lawsuits sounds nice on paper, but sorry, it doesn't work. Can't have the cake and eat it too.

Employment:
the conservative philosophy has changed over the last 40 years from a manufacturing based economy to a service economy. To affront this shift in labor is impossible, as much as unions try to do it. We are becoming more and more a service economy of white collar positions, and yes, there cannot be as many white collar positions as blue collar ones, however, at the current state of world affairs, we cannot compete in labor prices with other countries. And to attempt to isolate the economy via tariffs violates the fundamental rules of economics, and will necessitate a worse life for everyone worldwide, because controls are preventing a true market equilibrium. Consider this. The average tax you pay for a gallon of gas is in excess of 70 cents in this country. That 70 cents goes to the government, who, by enacting generally stupid law, have put that money in a place more difficult to tap into than social security, as it MUST go towards paying unions to fix roads. It is running an enormous surplus. We cannot use this money to do the right things, because unions have basically held the government hostage. Michael Moore is so off base in his commentary on our labor markets that its downright ridiculous. He can simply go off and fuck himself if he doesn't want to bother doing the correct research, much like how he fucked up his whole bowling for columbine story with great britain, a country with more strict gun laws, yet a much higher rate of inner city violent crime (way to go chief).

Equal Rights:
Being it I am not white, I fully support equal rights in every way. Programs like affirmative action however, and college admissions quotas, are forms of racism endorsed by a liberal agenda to get votes. The people who get the spot are not necessarily the best qualified. People are discriminated against, with lesser qualified people attaining positions that were not properly earned. Equal rights says, don't put your race or your gender on the piece of paper, and we'll judge based on everything else. That's how it has to be in order to get equal rights. As for women's rights in the workplace, this is something I can commiserate with. However, especially at upper management positions, younger women will be discriminated to a degree due to the possibility of having children. 3 months is an awful long time in the world of business, and it is a tremendous risk to deal with. At the same time, this may leave employers in a situation where a slightly more qualified women is denied the position she earned. It is a true catch 22 of sorts.


But to get back to Michael Moore. Considering he released 2 pieces of politically motivated propaganda very similar in nature to what Goebels did for the Nazi party, I cannot take his word seriously on any matter. He is a man filled with half truths and deceit, and that is all he is good for. He is basically the liberal answer to the National Review. People who believe the national review and subscribe to its agenda are ignorant. People who subscribe and believe Moore's agenda are equally ignorant.

[Hulkein]

WTF I read the first eight responses to this thread and am too pissed off to read the rest.. Good job staying on topic Tamral. A man inferior to you could've never done so.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by Hulkein]

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Maimara
You could just stop being a dumbass and express an opinion instead of adopting someone else's that you found on the Internet.

YES EDINE, GO OUT AND POLL 2000 BRITAINS INSTEAD OF USING A READILY AVAILABLE RESOURCE. DUMBASS

Tamral is still a tool.

[Carl Spackler]

Who cares, Michael Moore is a moron, the Liberals themselves are embarassed by him, and the conservatives just laugh at him. He needs to get himself a life (and a tredmill) and quit bashing America, if you don't like how it is, get out.

[Kefka]

Michael Moore should head the CIA. :beer:

[Delirium]

Moore isn't saying anything different to the foreign press, you just can't grasp that for some reason.


Maybe you're right im not sure. It just grates on my nerves that he is saying it to the foreign press. The Europeans already dislike us and now we send him over to prove how stupid and fat we really are.

Imagine if Bill Cosby did his little speech recently to an all white audience. Would it make what he said any less true? I bet it would be taken a lot different though huh? We all discussed how maybe he was telling the wrong people,the educated and non-poor blacks instead of the ones he was aiming his message at. I cant imagine what we would be saying if it was to a white audience. What is Moore trying to accomplish by telling Europeans how stupid we are? If Cosby did his speech to the wrong audience more than one person would probably say that he is pandering to the whites. Why isnt Moore pandering to the Europeans? I just dont understand what goal he is trying to accomplish by saying it overseas when instead he should be saying it here as bluntly as he did over there.

Originally posted by Backlash
Records of Bush's military service "accidently" destroyed. (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-RTO-rontz&idq=/ff/story/0002%2F20040709%2F0645031861.htm&sc=rontz&photoid= 20040707MISW108)

Why am I not suprised.

Corrections

By New York Times

An article yesterday about the destruction of some payroll records of National Guard members, including President Bush, misstated the record of White House acknowledgment of the loss. The White House indeed took note of the missing information last February when it released hundreds of pages of Mr. Bush's military files. In a briefing paper for reporters on Feb. 10, summarizing those files, it noted that payroll records for the third quarter of 1972 had been lost when they were transferred to microfiche.

Editor's Note: The article referred to appeared in the Current News Early Bird, July 9, 2004.


OLD news.

[vigilante]

Originally posted by Carl Spackler
Who cares, Michael Moore is a moron, the Liberals themselves are embarassed by him, and the conservatives just laugh at him. He needs to get himself a life (and a tredmill) and quit bashing America, if you don't like how it is, get out.

If you think liberals are embarassed by Moore, you haven't read these forums very closely. As for the whole "America, Love it or Leave it" colloquialism, it is misapplied here as Moore is actually trying to *help* the country and wake people the Hell up, rather than see it turn into something ultra-right, ultra-patriotic, and totalitarian.

Dissent is the fundamental principle that this country was built on. I feel sorry for people who cannot understand that.

[Hulkein]

Honestly how do you think Moore is helping anything? How is this country turning ultra-right when we have had a conservative president in office for only four years out of the last 12? The New York Times, ABC, NBC, and CNN are all slightly liberally slanted at best. Perhaps what Mr. Moore doesn't understand is we don't all see the glass half-empty, and we're not seeing the same things he is.

Moore can't make people smarter, so if he is indeed insulting the general intelligence of people, then it may be time for him to move. Sure, this country was a lot different then England and France when it was founded, but nowadays don't they offer the same freedoms we are offered? (Somewhat rhetorical, but I honestly am not 100% sure seeing as I have little knowledge of European law or their judicial processes.)

I'm not the type of person who yells LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT in most cases, but for Moore I'll make an exception. He does nothing but cause obnoxious noise with no real contructive gains.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by Hulkein]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by vigilante
If you think liberals are embarassed by Moore, you haven't read these forums very closely. As for the whole "America, Love it or Leave it" colloquialism, it is misapplied here as Moore is actually trying to *help* the country and wake people the Hell up, rather than see it turn into something ultra-right, ultra-patriotic, and totalitarian.

Dissent is the fundamental principle that this country was built on. I feel sorry for people who cannot understand that.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

He's trying to make money by selling his films. I feel sorry for people who cannot understand that.

Don't put his fat ass on a pedestal.. because it would certainly break.

[vigilante]

Moore 'helps' us by challenging the status quo, something a democracy is supposed to thrive upon. He is a modern-day gadfly, the ultimate pessimist in good Socratic fashion. You kick folks like Moore out of this country and you will have nothing but provincial yaysayers who wrap themselves in the flag and salute whatever is.

...not whatever 'should' be or 'could be.'

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by vigilante
Moore 'helps' us by challenging the status quoI could challenge the status quo by blowing up every gas station in my town, too. Challenging the status quo doesn't excuse one from morality.

The mere state of being different is neither a good thing nor a bad thing.

[vigilante]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by vigilante
If you think liberals are embarassed by Moore, you haven't read these forums very closely. As for the whole "America, Love it or Leave it" colloquialism, it is misapplied here as Moore is actually trying to *help* the country and wake people the Hell up, rather than see it turn into something ultra-right, ultra-patriotic, and totalitarian.

Dissent is the fundamental principle that this country was built on. I feel sorry for people who cannot understand that.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

He's trying to make money by selling his films. I feel sorry for people who cannot understand that.

Don't put his fat ass on a pedestal.. because it would certainly break.

Granted, Moore's motivation for doing what he does may be less than noble, I really cannot say with any certainty (yet you seem perfect in your knowledge that his motivation is entirely financial). Nevertheless, I find his books and movies to be quite valuable. If nothing else, they certainly raise important questions. Sometimes I agree with him, many times I don't. That doesn't mean he needs to leave.

[Kefka]

Letterman's Top Ten List: Top Ten George W. Bush Complaints About "Fahrenheit 9/11":

10. That actor who played the President was totally unconvincing

9. It oversimplified the way I stole the election

8. Too many of them fancy college-boy words

7. If Michael Moore had waited a few months, he could have included the part where I get him deported

6. Didn't have one of them hilarious monkeys who smoke cigarettes and gives people the finger

5. Of all Michael Moore's accusations, only 97% are true

4. Not sure - - I passed out after a piece of popcorn lodged in my windpipe

3. Where the hell was Spider-man?

2. Couldn't hear most of the movie over Cheney's foul mouth

1. I thought this was supposed to be about dodgeball

[vigilante]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
[quote]Originally posted by vigilante
Moore 'helps' us by challenging the status quoI could challenge the status quo by blowing up every gas station in my town, too. Challenging the status quo doesn't excuse one from morality.

What an idiotic response. Moore is not doing anything remotely close to what you suggest. I guess his films really must be pretty incendiary to convince you that he is somehow being immoral. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[DeV]

:lol: good list.
#10 being the funniest for me. Moore does make you think, you can't deny that.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by vigilante
I guess his films really must be pretty incendiary to convince you that he is somehow being immoral.I'm sorry, lying isn't immoral anymore? Well shoot. I should start going to Church everyday if they're going to change stuff overnight on me.

[vigilante]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by vigilante
I guess his films really must be pretty incendiary to convince you that he is somehow being immoral.I'm sorry, lying isn't immoral anymore? Well shoot. I should start going to Church everyday if they're going to change stuff overnight on me.

You can assert he is lying all you want. Heck, you may even be correct once or twice. If we are going to play this game, let's consider George Bush.

Oops, we got an immoral man in the White House. He even goes to Church.

But he still lies.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by vigilante

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by vigilante
I guess his films really must be pretty incendiary to convince you that he is somehow being immoral.I'm sorry, lying isn't immoral anymore? Well shoot. I should start going to Church everyday if they're going to change stuff overnight on me.

You can assert he is lying all you want. Heck, you may even be correct once or twice. If we are going to play this game, let's consider George Bush.

Oops, we got an immoral man in the White House. He even goes to Church.

But he still lies.

Piss poor debating skills Vigilante.. If you want to go down that road.. two words: Bill Clinton.

Here's some cartoons to entertain you.

[vigilante]

"Piss poor debating skills Vigilante.. If you want to go down that road.. two words: Bill Clinton.

Here's some cartoons to entertain you. "

Bill Clinton is a liar, granted. You accuse of piss poor debating skills, then not-so-cleverly avoid dealing with the assertion that lying=immorality.

Then you add cartoons. Yep, you are definitely a master debater! Thanks for the lesson.

[vigilante]

By the way, this in no way means I am convinced Moore is 'lying.' Nobody on these boards has proven that yet. However, I am prepared to accept the possibility that he might have spun some yarn once or twice. Does that make him immoral?

:shrug: Guess it all depends on your personal definition of immorality, complete with all the grey areas carefully delineated and such.

Ironically, this is how we elect Presidents in this country. Or does anyone want to seriously argue that they don't lie?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by vigilante
"Piss poor debating skills Vigilante.. If you want to go down that road.. two words: Bill Clinton.

Here's some cartoons to entertain you. "

Bill Clinton is a liar, granted. You accuse of piss poor debating skills, then not-so-cleverly avoid dealing with the assertion that lying=immorality.

Then you add cartoons. Yep, you are definitely a master debater! Thanks for the lesson.

I thought my comment about the piss poor debating skills was relatively obvious. You used the "Yea, well look at him! He did it too!" excuse instead of discussing the issue at hand.

The cartoons were simply because I liked them. I wasn't debating with you.. merely pointing out your flawed skill or lack there of.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by vigilante
By the way, this in no way means I am convinced Moore is 'lying.' Nobody on these boards has proven that yet. However, I am prepared to accept the possibility that he might have spun some yarn once or twice. Does that make him immoral?

:shrug: Guess it all depends on your personal definition of immorality, complete with all the grey areas carefully delineated and such.

Ironically, this is how we elect Presidents in this country. Or does anyone want to seriously argue that they don't lie?

I don't consider Michael Moore immoral or unAmerican. I consider him to be nothing more than a hypocrite and fat slob. I tend to think most Liberals are hypocrites... especially the rich ones in Hollywood.

[vigilante]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by vigilante
"Piss poor debating skills Vigilante.. If you want to go down that road.. two words: Bill Clinton.

Here's some cartoons to entertain you. "

Bill Clinton is a liar, granted. You accuse of piss poor debating skills, then not-so-cleverly avoid dealing with the assertion that lying=immorality.

Then you add cartoons. Yep, you are definitely a master debater! Thanks for the lesson.

I thought my comment about the piss poor debating skills was relatively obvious. You used the "Yea, well look at him! He did it too!" excuse instead of discussing the issue at hand.

The cartoons were simply because I liked them. I wasn't debating with you.. merely pointing out your flawed skill or lack there of.

Obvious to you, maybe. I pointed to the current president, yep, but that in no way avoided dealing with the issue at hand because it was already obvious within the response. The assertion that lying equals immorality is weak, especially coming from a human who most likely ... lies!

Or are any of us claiming we don't do it? Is there one of you out there who does not lie? If the answer is yes, congratulations, I guess you are somehow 'moral.'

On the other hand, those of who admit we have lied must be going to Hell in a handbasket. Damn.

Not if you ask for god to fogive you my son. /end priest moment.
:lol:

[vigilante]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by vigilante
By the way, this in no way means I am convinced Moore is 'lying.' Nobody on these boards has proven that yet. However, I am prepared to accept the possibility that he might have spun some yarn once or twice. Does that make him immoral?

:shrug: Guess it all depends on your personal definition of immorality, complete with all the grey areas carefully delineated and such.

Ironically, this is how we elect Presidents in this country. Or does anyone want to seriously argue that they don't lie?

I don't consider Michael Moore immoral or unAmerican. I consider him to be nothing more than a hypocrite and fat slob. I tend to think most Liberals are hypocrites... especially the rich ones in Hollywood.

Okay. Fair enough. He is at least one of those things. Glad to see you didn't hop on the gravy train of Unamericanism and call for his deportation like some other folks.

[vigilante]

Originally posted by The Edine
Not if you ask for god to fogive you my son. /end priest moment.
:lol:

I FO-GIVE you. FOSHIZZLE!:lol::lol::lol:

[Kefka]

http://mediamatters.org/archives/

With what's been going on lately with Bush, one would think the media would pounce on him like a pack of dogs. Yet, he's still selling his reason for war speech and the media's licking his ass like a lollipop. It's silly to jump on Moore when the media's so far to the right, they're considered 'Reicht' wing propaganda.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200406180005

Moore is such a bad man. Yet there's people like O'Lielly polluting the news with his 'fair and balanced' views. Corporations own the media. Bush makes them rich(er). I applaud Moore for finding a creative way of getting his message across.

[Wezas]

I listen to O'reilly occasionally. I listen to Stern on the way to work and Don & Mike on the way home. If I happen to drive to lunch, O'reilly's on the same station as they are, so the dial is usually there.

And the fact that he's on the show with no liberal counterpart makes the "No Spin" thing a joke. I lump him right between Limbaugh and Hannity.

http://www.oreilly-sucks.com/ I enjoy, as it shows alot of his (and fox's) secrets.

[Hulkein]

That entire mediamatters site is so liberally biased it's worse then me posting a bunch of drudgereport articles and hoping anyone will sway to my point of view.

I think O'Reilly is pretty entertaining. Of course me agreeing with most of what he says makes his show a lot more enjoyable for me.

Hannity is on the air with Colmes who is a liberal, does this give him any more credibility then O'Reilly? Just because O'Reilly is alone doesn't mean he is anymore likely to spin something for the right.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by Hulkein]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by vigilante
On the other hand, those of who admit we have lied must be going to Hell in a handbasket. Damn.

LOL.. don't get me started on Religion next...

OH NO! I'M GOING TO HELL!!!!! :lol:

[Delirium]

O'Reilly isnt a straight news show. He gives his opinions and while he claims to be independant(which is laughable i know) you would have to be brain dead not to figure out he was saying his opinion and not fact. Thats like saying CNN is incredibly liberal biased because they have James Carville on the air.


Altho i like the fact that the democrats are using the "The media is slanted against us" scheme since it worked so well for the republicans. Maybe they can put out a liberal slanted cable network like the opposite of Fox News and see how well it would do(Air America anyone?).

[Wezas]

What ever happened to the Liberal Radio Network that was supposed to be starting up?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Wezas
What ever happened to the Liberal Radio Network that was supposed to be starting up?

:lol:

Can you say.. abortion?

[Delirium]

Its struggling to get its feet off the ground. Im actually hoping it takes off eventually as im a big talk radio nut. Heres a link to there website

http://www.airamericaradio.com/pub/globalDefault.htm

[Wezas]

Other then Factcheck.org are there any UNBIASED political fact websites?

[Delirium]

Probably not very many but some are much more biased than others. For instance if i post a Fox news link i might get some shit depending on the story. When i post a drudge link i will get A LOT of shit no matter what the story.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by vigilante
You can assert he is lying all you want. Heck, you may even be correct once or twice. If we are going to play this game, let's consider George Bush.Uh, why? What does Bush have to do with Moore?
The assertion that lying equals immorality is weak, especially coming from a human who most likely ... lies!...

I have said, multiple times, that I'm a sinner. That's why I use God's words. It's the part about being a false witness and how thou shan't be one.
Nobody on these boards has proven that yet.Here, I'll do it again. Everyone else can skip this next bit, I've already posted it.

Do you recall the Bush (Sr.) ad Michael Moore showed in Bowling for Columbine? The one about murderer Willie Horton that he (Bush) was using against Dukakis?

Funny thing, at the end of the ad is a subtitle that reads: "Willie Horton released. Then kills again." The damnedest thing, though, Willie Horton didn't kill anyone after he escaped (it's kind of tricky whether to call it releasing or escaping, but that's more a semantics thing that I'm not worried about). He assaulted two people and raped a woman, but he didn't kill anyone. You think a guy running for President would check up on these things, wouldn't you?

Well, he probably did. Because that subtitle was not part of the George Bush ad. Michael Moore took two different ads (one of which that wasn't even a Bush ad) and stuck them together, then made up a subtitle (that was incorrect!!) and threw it on the end. He made sure to leave the "paid for by the Bush campaign" thing in though.

Moore statement = Bush said this.
Truth = Bush did not say that.
Moore = Liar.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Wezas
Other then Factcheck.org are there any UNBIASED political fact websites?

Sure, I consider links from CNN, Foxnews, ABC, etc all valid, it's just they each have their own slant from time to time. They are still unbiased enough to use in an article by article basis.

Look on the front page of that mediamatters site and you'll see what I mean.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by Hulkein]

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Wezas
Other then Factcheck.org are there any UNBIASED political fact websites?

Sure, I consider links from CNN, Foxnews, ABC, etc all valid, it's just they each have their own slant from time to time. They are still unbiased enough to use in an article by article basis.


But the problem with those sources is that they will not report *all* stories if they think it might not be picked up by major sources and it doesn't suit their political needs.

Guess it's difficult to get funding to find the truth when neither side wants some of their *truthes* to be known.

[Hulkein]

Yeah, it's definitely a give or take from both sides. Usually need to find the middleground yourself I guess.

Originally posted by Wezas
What ever happened to the Liberal Radio Network that was supposed to be starting up?

They are basicly done for, they bounced a million $ check here for their chicago counterpart and are not on the air anymore. They are also being sued because of it. Al Frankin is the only one worth any amusement on the station and he has not been paid in months cause they cant come up with the money

[Wezas]

Nice, they do a live webcast of the network.

http://play.rbn.com/?url=airam/airam/live/live.rm&proto=rtsp

[vigilante]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by vigilante
You can assert he is lying all you want. Heck, you may even be correct once or twice. If we are going to play this game, let's consider George Bush.Uh, why? What does Bush have to do with Moore?
The assertion that lying equals immorality is weak, especially coming from a human who most likely ... lies!...

I have said, multiple times, that I'm a sinner. That's why I use God's words. It's the part about being a false witness and how thou shan't be one.
Nobody on these boards has proven that yet.Here, I'll do it again. Everyone else can skip this next bit, I've already posted it.

Do you recall the Bush (Sr.) ad Michael Moore showed in Bowling for Columbine? The one about murderer Willie Horton that he (Bush) was using against Dukakis?

Funny thing, at the end of the ad is a subtitle that reads: "Willie Horton released. Then kills again." The damnedest thing, though, Willie Horton didn't kill anyone after he escaped (it's kind of tricky whether to call it releasing or escaping, but that's more a semantics thing that I'm not worried about). He assaulted two people and raped a woman, but he didn't kill anyone. You think a guy running for President would check up on these things, wouldn't you?

Well, he probably did. Because that subtitle was not part of the George Bush ad. Michael Moore took two different ads (one of which that wasn't even a Bush ad) and stuck them together, then made up a subtitle (that was incorrect!!) and threw it on the end. He made sure to leave the "paid for by the Bush campaign" thing in though.

Moore statement = Bush said this.
Truth = Bush did not say that.
Moore = Liar.

Moore's response is right here:

"Actually, I have found one typo in the theatrical release of the film. It was a caption that read, "Willie Horton released by Dukakis and kills again." In fact, Willie Horton was a convicted murderer who, after escaping from furlough, raped a woman and stabbed her fiancé, but didn't kill him. The caption has been permanently corrected on the DVD and home video version of the film and replaced with, "Willie Horton released. Then rapes a woman." My apologies to Willie Horton and the Horton family for implying he is a double-murderer when he is only a single-murderer/rapist. And my apologies to the late Lee Atwater who, on his deathbed, apologized for having engineered the smear campaign against Dukakis (but correctly identified Mr. Horton as a single-murderer!)."

As to Bush-Moore, if one is immoral for lying they are both immoral for lying. Just because one falls on his hands and knees and begs forgiveness from your God means....nothing. You want to have it both ways. I understand. We all do. It doesn't work that way.

[Chadj]

<<Master Debater>>

Lol, sounds like masterbator rofl lol hahahahahahahaha

I dont get it how is that a typo. He got called on his bullshit, and is saying its a typo to get out of it. I hope you are not that stupid and can see the obvious.

I also ask where Bush lied. It is now well documented by both the 9/11 commission and the most recent senate intelligence committee that it was in fact faulty information, and not made up, or a lie.
(minus people playing politics, go by the facts presented in the reports.)

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by The Edine]

[vigilante]

Originally posted by Chadj
<<Master Debater>>

Lol, sounds like masterbator rofl lol hahahahahahahaha

Entirely intentional. ;);)

[Wezas]

Originally posted by vigilante
My apologies to Willie Horton and the Horton family for implying he is a double-murderer when he is only a single-murderer/rapist.


:lol:

[vigilante]

Originally posted by The Edine
I dont get it how is that a typo. He got called on his bullshit, and is saying its a typo to get out of it. I hope you are not that stupid and can see the obvious.

What would you have him call it? OHMYGODIF*CKEDUP!!?? Get real. It was a typo and he owned up to it and fixed it. That's obviously not good enough for you. :O:O:O Oh no!!

[imported_Kranar]

<< Other then Factcheck.org are there any UNBIASED political fact websites? >>

Academic sources are unbiased and can be trusted since their main motivation isn't to make a profit or appeal to any group of people. Of course unless you're a student it might be hard to find any decent academic sources. Another drawback is that it takes time for academic articles to get reviewed and published, usually 3-4 months so you're not going to be able to get information on current events.

No, I would have had him say, Yes I made it up to make things seem worse than they are. I did my best to hide it but when the facts came out I hade to admit to my own bullshit in my movies .

[DeV]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by vigilante
My apologies to Willie Horton and the Horton family for implying he is a double-murderer when he is only a single-murderer/rapist.


:lol: I second that. :lol:

[vigilante]

Originally posted by The Edine
I dont get it how is that a typo. He got called on his bullshit, and is saying its a typo to get out of it. I hope you are not that stupid and can see the obvious.

I also ask where Bush lied. It is now well documented by both the 9/11 commission and the most recent senate intelligence committee that it was in fact faulty information, and not made up, or a lie.
(minus people playing politics, go by the facts presented in the reports.)

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by The Edine]

Yeah, I like this logic. I need to blow the crap out of this country because they have WMD! I repeat: WMD! (repeated ad nauseam for months).

(Several months later...)

Damn. No WMD? Um, we'll chalk it up to 'faulty information' and 'not made up,' yeah that's it.

The Edine, you make me laugh. He lied! He started a war over a lie! He's stuck in a quagmire because of a lie! Who cares if he stopped believing it, it's still a lie!

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by vigilante
Moore's response is right here:The problem wasn't that it was a typo, the problem was that he ADDED it to the Bush ad (leaving aside the way he spliced two ads together) without pointing out that Bush never put it in there.
You want to have it both ways. I understand. We all do. It doesn't work that way. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. If I had said "It is moral for Bush to lie", then you might have something.

[vigilante]

Originally posted by The Edine
No, I would have had him say, Yes I made it up to make things seem worse than they are. I did my best to hide it but when the facts came out I hade to admit to my own bullshit in my movies .

Let's turn that around on Bush: "Yes I believed a lie and started a war over a lie. I made it seem a lot worse than it really was. I did my best to hide it but when the facts came out I had to admit to my own bullshit in running the country."



:D:D:D:D

[vigilante]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by vigilante
Moore's response is right here:The problem wasn't that it was a typo, the problem was that he ADDED it to the Bush ad (leaving aside the way he spliced two ads together) without pointing out that Bush never put it in there.
You want to have it both ways. I understand. We all do. It doesn't work that way. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. If I had said "It is moral for Bush to lie", then you might have something.

You have no idea what Moore did or didn't do with regard to preparing/editing/revising his film. Bottom line is: he apologized for the error.

You never made the assertion "It is moral for Bush to lie" but you did defend the assertion that a liar is immoral, that Moore is a liar, and that therefore Moore is immoral. You are just unwilling to do the same with that Bush guy. It's simple really. :!:

Show me where bush lied.

Edit: make sure you can prove it as Lan proved his.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by The Edine]

[vigilante]

Originally posted by The Edine
Show me where bush lied.

Edit: make sure you can prove it as Lan proved his.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by The Edine]

Look 4 posts up, smart guy :lol:

And Lan sure did NOT prove his, it was disproved;)

[vigilante]

...only you choose to dress it up in the language "faulty information"....

It's still a lie.

Having not known it was faulty information at the time?
I am still looking for the lie there

[vigilante]

Originally posted by The Edine
Having not known it was faulty information at the time?
I am still looking for the lie there

Lie: 1. Something said that is not true. 2. speak falsely; tell a lie. He says that he has never lied, but I think he is lying when he says it.

Source: Thorndike Barnhart 2003

Im still waiting.

1)A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2)Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lie

When you use a dictionary make sure you use all the words, you left out deliberately and the like out of your response, if you took it off of a website I would appreciate the link so I can verify your source.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by The Edine]

[vigilante]

Originally posted by The Edine
Im still waiting.

Wow, I've got to agree with just about everyone here, Edine. You ARE dense if you cannot figure this one out. Do you normally throw the chess pieces at this point as well?:?:

[vigilante]

Originally posted by The Edine
1)A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
1)Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lie

When you use a dictionary make sure you use all the words, you left out deliberately and the like out of your response, if you took it off of a website I would appreciate the link so I can verify your source.

Wait, I thought you were still waiting? :lol:

yes waiting for you to give me an example of a lie.

[vigilante]

"When you use a dictionary make sure you use all the words, you left out deliberately and the like out of your response, if you took it off of a website I would appreciate the link so I can verify your source.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by The Edine] "

Sorry, I teach so the dictionary is not off a website but rather straight out of a book. You know, those things with covers and pages between? Anyhow, here's the publisher and all that:

Scott, Foresman and Company
Printed in the United States of America

Originally posted by vigilante

Originally posted by The Edine
Im still waiting.

Wow, I've got to agree with just about everyone here, Edine. You ARE dense if you cannot figure this one out. Do you normally throw the chess pieces at this point as well?:?:

was unable to find the source for your definition, it seems they did not have an online version. I was left to believe then that you fabricated your response when you transposed it from a student dictionary by leaving out a few key words. I am still waiting for you to present an example these lies.

A lie as I showed above is something said falsely with the intention to misinform. Both the 9\11 committee and now the senate Intelligence reports have given bush a free ride up to this point. I am asking for a factual example of a lie that has been given.

When it comes to Mr. Moore, his claiming it was in fact a typo, means he knew the truth in the first place. Having edited his own film I do not doubt that he has read the line many times, and because of that I am left to think two things about him; One, he lied, and called it a typo as an excuse, Two, he is a big fat idiot.
I think both are right.

[Betheny]

you mean you couldn't google it?

OH MY GOD THE WORLD IS ENDING.

EDINE CAN'T MAKE A BULLSHIT ARGUEMENT BY USING GOOGLE.

[vigilante]

"Two, he is a big fat idiot. " [the Edine}

Got that out of Moore's apology too, eh? Damn you ARE good.
:rah: Bush won't apologize for his blunder. Moore did. Who's the bigger man?

Free Ride? How shocking! An American President is given a free ride for lying? That's NEVER happened before...

[Mistomeer]

The fact of the matter is, the CIA is taking the fall, for whatever reason. They're owning up to the mistake, so you can't really call Bush a liar when the CIA analysts get up there and take the blame. Who knows why they did it? Maybe they're being honest, maybe they have other motivations. As long as the CIA is going to take the blame by themselves, you can't really prove that Bush lied about WMD. Sure, you can get Bush on many other things - The Patriot Act, Halliburton, Kyoto Accord, etc. but you can't get him on WMD when the CIA is taking the blame. It's just the way it is.

The situation in Iraq sucks. Bush's current Iraqi strategy sucks. Did Bush lie when he said they had WMD? Only if you can prove that he knew the Intel from the CIA was false at the time he said it. Best of luck to you proving that.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by vigilante
Let's turn that around on Bush: "Yes I believed a lie and started a war over a lie. I made it seem a lot worse than it really was. I did my best to hide it but when the facts came out I had to admit to my own bullshit in running the country."



:D:D:D:D


Huh? This isn't the same at all. Moore does his own research, and messed up HIMSELF on saying the guy murdered again after he was released.

The CIA, Britain, and other intelligence communities did the research for Bush, seeing as it's obviously not his job to collect the intelligence.

Totally different. Bush didn't lie about it, sorry.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by The Edine
1)A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2)Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lie

When you use a dictionary make sure you use all the words, you left out deliberately and the like out of your response, if you took it off of a website I would appreciate the link so I can verify your source.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by The Edine]


He pulled a Michael Moore to appear correct. :lol:



Is Merriam Webster acceptable? Yes it is, here is their definition.

Main Entry: 3lie
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): lied; ly·ing /'lI-i[ng]/
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English lEogan; akin to Old High German liogan to lie, Old Church Slavonic lugati
intransitive senses
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression
transitive senses : to bring about by telling lies <lied his way out of trouble>


Bush didn't intend to deceive anyone seeing as he believed the information given to him by a reputable establishment you might've heard of before... the CIA.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by Hulkein]

Originally posted by Maimara
you mean you couldn't google it?

OH MY GOD THE WORLD IS ENDING.

EDINE CAN'T MAKE A BULLSHIT ARGUEMENT BY USING GOOGLE.

I am sorry Maimara, I would rather have facts to back up my argument than to go off the whim. That was why I tried to locate the definition he presented from his source. I was unable to do so.
I knew the definition of "Lie" had more to it than he presented and I was giving him a chance to prove that he did not FABRICATE the definition by leaving out very important words. He left out words or a word that can change a definitions meaning quite a bit. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt by looking up the source of his definition, and was unable to do so. That was the reason I used Dictionary.com as my reference to prove him wrong. I would think somebody of the teaching profession would act somewhat more ethically than that. Which is why I hope he can find a similar definition of the word and prove me wrong. Then again as a teacher he most likely is in a teachers union so ethics are already out the window.

[Ravenstorm]

You'd like a lie Bush made? Here's one he's still making to defend himself. His direct quote:

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040712-024135-7433r


"Although we have not found stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, we were right to go into Iraq," he said during a visit to Tennessee's Oak Ridge National Laboratory. "We removed a declared enemy of America who had the capability of producing weapons of mass murder and could have passed that capability to terrorists bent on acquiring them.

"The capability of producing weapons of mass murder." Interesting choice of phrasing there. Sounds a lot like WMD doesn't it? Weapons of mass destruction. So let's see what the weapon inspectors said back in 2002:

http://www.c-span.org/iraq/ritter.asp


The unaccounted-for material in itself does not constitute a viable weapons capability. And while the inability to achieve a final accounting is of concern and must be addressed, it is mitigated by the fact that for four years - from 1994 until 1998 - the United Nations weapons inspectors [/b]monitored Iraq's permitted industrial infrastructure[/b] with the most intrusive on-site inspections regime in the history of arms control and never once found any evidence of either retained prescribed capability or efforts by Iraq to reconstitute prohibited capability that had been eliminated by the inspectors. All of this was done with the full cooperation of Iraq.

So let's see... Iraq didn't have any WMD and neither did they have the infrastructure capable of producing any WMD. And yet here's Dubya STILL going on and on about the threat of Iraq having been able to do so. I think that most people who aren't Republicans would call that a lie.

But just so one thing in this post is actually on topic, Moore isn't at all a hero to me. However, just from reading the reviews of the movie, it's obvious there are more facts in F: 9/11 than in any of Dubya's justifications for invading Iraq.

You might as well stop wasting your time, vigilante :)

Ravenstorm

[Edited on 7-13-2004 by Ravenstorm]

Ravenstorm Ritter was not a weapons inspector in 2002, he quit position four years earlier in 1998.


Since you wish to use his words I will use the words he said back in 1998 his last year as an inspector.

"Iraq still has prescribed weapons capability. There needs to be a careful distinction here. Iraq today is challenging the special commission to come up with a weapon and say where is the weapon in Iraq, and yet part of their efforts to conceal their capabilities, I believe, have been to disassemble weapons into various components and to hide these components throughout Iraq."

"I think the danger right now is that without effective inspections, without effective monitoring, Iraq can in a very short period of time measure the months, reconstitute chemical biological weapons, long-range ballistic missiles to deliver these weapons, and even certain aspects of their nuclear weaponization program."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec98/ritter_8-31.html



That is very, very different than what he said in 2002. Considering he had nothing to do with UNSCOM after 1998, I ask why the change? Did he come across new knowledge? No, he did not have the Clearance to do such anymore, nor did he work with UNSCOM.
Ritter left UNSCOM saying basically the U.N. Security Council along with current administration (Clinton) did not have the bals to enforce the 13 some U.N. resolutions put in place after the war in 1991.
Ritter changed his tune after he was out of the loop. It was a Nice try bringing that up Ravenstorm, but you should have paid more attention to him while he knew what he was talking about.


Edit* OMG Maimara why are you not giving Ravenstorm shit for googling!!!1

[Edited on 7-13-2004 by The Edine]

[Betheny]

Because he's fighting fire with fire, and he doesn't pick up a random news article and adopt it as his bible, like some conceited people here on the PC do.

No one in particular, or anything.

What she said

Originally posted by Maimara
Because he's fighting fire with fire, and he doesn't pick up a random news article and adopt it as his bible, like some conceited people here on the PC do.

No one in particular, or anything.

What she ment

Originally posted by Maimara
Hi my name is Maimara, and again you have proven me to be a hypocrite. In responce to that I will try to insult you by calling you conceited. I have nothing else I can do, because you again, were right. I love you The Edine!

Edit: to add the love

[Edited on 7-13-2004 by The Edine]

[Betheny]

What he meant.

Originally posted by The Edine

Good afternoon. My name is Dave. I think that because I recently acquired a dictionary and a thesaurus, I am what you would term 'The Shit', when in fact, I am just shit. My penis is very small, and I must overcompensate for this by bowing to those I know are far superior to myself (Meaning: Anyone that gets an article published on the Internet). I am also very, very full of myself. In fact, I really deserve to get smacked around like the little bitch I am, but I'm biding my time and seeing how many people I can piss off before this actually happens.

Thanks for your time.

[Edited on 7-13-2004 by The Edine]

Turnabout is fair play, fuckstain.

Maimara, I am disappointed. I know you can do better than that. You even forgot to add the love. :(

[Betheny]

Originally posted by The Edine
Maimara, I am disappointed. I know you can do better than that. You even forgot to add the love. :(

If you want to misrepresent what I say by making fake quotes, I can do the same thing.

Following your shining example is much easier than I thought it would be. I just have to not think. AT ALL.

Well I’m very glad that in your higher plane of intellect you are able to lower yourself to what you presume is my level. The difference of course is, unlike you I did not need to be malicious in my response. I merely called you on what you were, twice in this thread, a hypocrite.

I at least added the love. :(

[Betheny]

Originally posted by The Edine
Well I’m very glad that in your higher plane of intellect you are able to lower yourself to what you presume is my level. The difference of course is, unlike you I did not need to be malicious in my response. I merely called you on what you were, twice in this thread, a hypocrite.

I at least added the love. :(

Hey, go fuck yourself.

There's the love.

[Wezas]

http://www.spunangel.com/opossum/argue.jpg

My god, you are so insightful and smart Maimara. Please take me under your wing so I can one day be as brilliant as you? I wish I could just for one moment reach your level of enlightenment. From this day forward I will strive towards that goal. I just want to thank you for this life changing event Maimara, and I will always remember those words.


Originally posted by Maimara
Hey, go fuck yourself.


I will keep those words with me always and forever.

[Betheny]

.

[Ravenstorm]

Feel free to read what Kay has said about Iraq's capabilities and infrastructure as well. Right up to the day they left Iraq because the US told them to get out or chance dying, they were saying the same thing.

Do so or not, I couldn't care less.

Raven

Aww, Maimara are you so mad you're at a loss for words?


I wanted to speak your own language here and even had a picture of a BIG BLACK DILDO, but for the better of the boards I decided against sharing it. Just know that the thought was there and close your eyes and picture it, that way you will know what I was trying to get across.

[Betheny]

Just for you, Dave.

Oh, and when I think of you, I definitely don't think of big, manly anything.

[Edited on 7-13-2004 by Maimara]

Well, I hope you don't think of big black dildos when you think of me. I'm not one of the guys who would enjoy you hitting them in the forehead with it.
Please reuse another old overplayed Internet photo in an attempt to make yourself seem cooler than you already are. I just don't know how you do it. You are my hero Maimara.
Maimara, will you be upset if I make you my role-model?

[The Korean]

And please Edine, keep acting as your conceited self, also trying to make yourself seem cooler by being as sarcastic as possible.

[Betheny]

Nah, I'd be way more upset if you whipped out a google article supporting your belief that you're actually going to win this arguement.

Dude, I'm sure Wal*Mart appreciates you, but I think in the big wide world, you've got a few nasty lessons coming to you.

[Edited on 7-13-2004 by Maimara]

Originally posted by The Korean
And please Edine, keep acting as your conceited self, also trying to make yourself seem cooler by being as sarcastic as possible.

Well I would rather be using sarcasim instead of telling her what I really think. I can be much nicer this way.

[Betheny]

Originally posted by The Edine

Originally posted by The Korean
And please Edine, keep acting as your conceited self, also trying to make yourself seem cooler by being as sarcastic as possible.

Well I would rather be using sarcasim instead of telling her what I really think. I can be much nicer this way.

If you don't like it, you could always sit down, shut the fuck up, and go away.

[Carl Spackler]

Originally posted by vigilante

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by vigilante
I guess his films really must be pretty incendiary to convince you that he is somehow being immoral.I'm sorry, lying isn't immoral anymore? Well shoot. I should start going to Church everyday if they're going to change stuff overnight on me.

You can assert he is lying all you want. Heck, you may even be correct once or twice. If we are going to play this game, let's consider George Bush.

Oops, we got an immoral man in the White House. He even goes to Church.

But he still lies.

Lies... it's not just bush who's lying it's not just the liberals who are lying.... politics is all lying. Someone once said 'Politics is saying what you don't mean, and being nice to people you don't like"

Originally posted by Maimara
Nah, I'd be way more upset if you whipped out a google article supporting your belief that you're actually going to win this arguement.

Dude, I'm sure Wal*Mart appreciates you, but I think in the big wide world, you've got a few nasty lessons coming to you.

[Edited on 7-13-2004 by Maimara]

I'm sorry you feel that way Maimara. I am also sorry that when at 18 I "was" working at Walmart and making more money than you did at what 24, and your big job was overnight at a gas station?
Also if your going to try to come up with something like that, dont steal Tamral's lines from earlier in the thread, its kinda lame IMO.

(yes I know you do not still work at a gas station)

[Betheny]

Dude, I'm not even 24 yet. You lose.

And my big job is the job I have now. Your big job is ... what, again? You're an optical tech?

so... like. You wipe off the chin rest with some rubbing alcohol, right?

[Kefka]

As a centerpiece to it's argument for invading Iraq, the Administration has boldly pursued the idea that Saddam and al Qaeda are in cahoots. The CIA and the FBI disagree:

"…analysts at the Central Intelligence Agency have complained that senior administration officials have exaggerated the significance of some intelligence reports about Iraq, particularly about its possible links to terrorism, in order to strengthen their political argument for war, government officials said."

and…

"At the Federal Bureau of Investigation, some investigators said they were baffled by the Bush administration's insistence on a solid link between Iraq and Osama bin Laden's network. "We've been looking at this hard for more than a year and you know what, we just don't think it's there," a government official said."

This is consistent with what they were saying back in October:

"They are politicizing intelligence, no question about it," said Vincent M. Cannistraro, a former CIA counterterrorism chief. "And they are undertaking a campaign to get George Tenet [the director of central intelligence] fired because they can't get him to say what they want on Iraq."

In addition, in a January 30, interview, Blix revealed that:

“ …he had seen no persuasive indications of Iraqi ties to al Qaeda, which Mr. Bush also mentioned in his speech.”

Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice alleged that al-Qaeda operatives have had a direct relationship with the Iraqi government:

"There clearly are contacts between al-Qaeda and Iraq that can be documented,"

She did not document them and a U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, indicated the evidence for linkage is tenuous, based on sources of varying reliability.

[Back]

A few things. Why I am bothering, I don't know, but what the heck, I'm bored.

If Moore's movie were all lies it would be the laughingstock of the industry. Disney, through Miramax would have never put money behind it. It would not have grossed the money it made. It would not have won any awards. It would not have caused such great debate.

The movie pieces together facts, collected over Bush's term, and asks questions. Pertinent questions like, why are we at war? For what reason are our soldiers dying in another country? Why does our government want the middle and lower income backbone of this country to go fight and die in Iraq?

We know the truth now. The leaders of this Administration, in office through a questionable election, took us into a needless war based on fabrications, spent the Federal Surplus in doing so, with thousands of innocent lives lost, more wounded, and many many more families scared forever, amongst other things.

When a country like America makes this kind of mistake, whether it was the CIA's fuck-up, the President or the fucking Girl Scouts, something is really seriously wrong. As Americans, we all have to share the blame.

Whats done is done, though, and things can be fixed. Its time to get to the real work of fixing this country and make it what it is supposed to be.

PS. Edine, Maim, go to your rooms or you get a spanking.

[Edited on 7-13-2004 by Backlash]

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Maimara
Dude, I'm not even 24 yet. You lose.

And my big job is the job I have now. Your big job is ... what, again? You're an optical tech?

so... like. You wipe off the chin rest with some rubbing alcohol, right?

Haha, I was doing my follow up for my new contacts today. And they definately have a stack little cotton strips on the chin rest that they (hopefully) toss after you use them.

In other news, my vision sucks (-6.0 in both eyes) but these new Night & Day contacts kick ass.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by vigilante
You have no idea what Moore did or didn't do with regard to preparing/editing/revising his film. Bottom line is: he apologized for the error.Here's an analogy for you. I steal a knife and stab someone. Then I apologize for stealing the knife.

Michael Moore apologized for the TYPO (stealing the knife). He never mentioned the stabbing (putting words in Bush Sr.'s mouth).

You're right. I didn't talk about Bush when I said Michael Moore was immoral. That's because this is a Michael Moore thread (unless you honestly think Bush is a left wing hero). It's called being :offtopic:, and it's :mad:ed upon.
And Lan sure did NOT prove his, it was disprovedMichael Moore attributed words to Bush that were not Bush's. The fact that the words were incorrect is irrelevant. The fact that the words were there is the important part.

And now, for the most unbelievable statement of the thread, courtesy of Backlash...
We know the truth now.I never said Moore's movies were all lies. Nobody can lie all the time. But to deliver that statement with the implication that Michael Moore was the bringer of truth blows my mind.

[Tsa`ah]

Nice that we're skirting the intel the executive branch provided the legislative branch.

Can you in good faith and conscience believe the intelligence provided by Iraqi exiles seeking the return and control of that country?

That, no matter how you cut it, is a lie. It is a lie told to the administration by exiles, a lie the administration adopted, and a lie the administration presented.

Everything they presented is contrary to their stance at the beginning of the presidential term.

You really are a fool to ask what lies the president and this administration have told. A better question would be what truth have they told.

Per Moore's lies, I wasn't aware of the Bush add fiasco as I never saw the movie in theatres, only on DVD. Do I believe Moore lied in this instance? Most likely. Does it compare to the lies of this administration? Not even close.

Any lies Moore has told, and so far we have one that was edited and apologized for, have not resulted in the expenditure of billions of dollars and the lives of 10's of thousands of people.

I'm sorry, but if you ask me what lies do the least amount of damage, I'm going with the one presented and amended lie told by Moore.

I'll close by sharing a LJ entry my wife e-mailed me this morning.


Here are the LIES and DECEPTIONS that we have spotted in Fahrenheit 9/11. This proves how DISHONEST Michael Moore is and how he CANNOT BE TRUSTED.


1. Fahrenheit 9/11 opens to sequences from the 2000 elections, and Moore's voiceover saying, "Was it all just a dream?" Our research has established that NOT ONE of the pieces of footage shown were taken from an actual dream! Lies!

2. The segment on the World Trade Center attacks shows a black screen with the sound of planes crashing into the buildings. This a clear piece of doctoring to give the impression that the World Trade Center was attacked at night. In fact, it was attacked during the day! Ha!

3. The segment on the Coalition of the Willing left out some countries, so as to give the impression that the coalition was little more than a crib-sheet of countries signing up to a list without actually having to do anything. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. Moore deliberately omits the mention of the strategically vital nation of Nicaragua. A key part of any successful military assault is the element of surprise, and there's nothing more surprising than launching an invasion of Iraq from Nicaragua.

4. When introducing the woman whose son was killed in Iraq. The subtitles introduce her as "Lila Lupscombe". Yet there's no mention of her middle name. Talking about scrimping on the details! What's her middle name, Mike? What are you hiding?


To be continued on freerepublic.com, newsmax.com etc etc ad infinitum, ad nauseam.....


(note the irony-free; this is called a joke)

[Hulkein]

Tsah (sorry my tilde is still broken, don't shed tears) the Senate committee (which was bi-partisan) concluded Bush did not lie, and that the White House did not coerce anyone into returning intelligence which would help push for a war in Iraq. Apparently people other then the President believed the Iraqi exile info and other amounts of info they gathered was good enough.

[Edited on 7-13-2004 by Hulkein]

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Tsah (sorry my tilde is still broken, don't shed tears)

I can't help it that you lack resourcefulness, but just for your comfort ... I never shed tears over any statement you make.


the Senate committee (which was bi-partisan) concluded Bush did not lie, and that the White House did not coerce anyone into returning intelligence which would help push for a war in Iraq. Apparently people other then the President believed the Iraqi exile info and other amounts of info they gathered was good enough.

This is what we call politics of an election year. You're sighting the branch that concluded Clinton did purger himself.

Senate and Congressional findings will always be to the benefit of the legislative branch, bi-partisan or not.

To me it smacks of "We were suckers but will never admit it". Sorry, but I'll look at the facts available and make up my own mind.

[Edited on 7-13-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[Betheny]

Originally posted by Backlash
PS. Edine, Maim, go to your rooms or you get a spanking.

[Edited on 7-13-2004 by Backlash]

Promise?

[Back]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
And now, for the most unbelievable statement of the thread, courtesy of Backlash...
We know the truth now.I never said Moore's movies were all lies. Nobody can lie all the time. But to deliver that statement with the implication that Michael Moore was the bringer of truth blows my mind.

You're reading far to much into that, Latrinsorm. I was refering to the Senate Intelligence Committee. The only things Moore brought to my attention that I hadn't already known about and questioned were the corporate ties to the Saudis.

I don't consider Moore a hero. I think of him more as a contemptorary artist. I certainly don't think he is soley responsible for all the doubts I've had about Bush since before he was even elected.

[Delirium]

I didnt know all you had to do was show someone else did the same thing to make the guy accused of doing so innocent. Moore lies,and then people say so did Bush! So what? This is a Moore topic. The next Bush topic im in im gonna ask "Havent you ever made a mistake?" for all the supposed bad things Bush has done. As long as other people make similar mistakes its ok i guess. All we are discussing is if Moore is a liar or not. Not if me or Bush or Latrinsorm are liars too. Clinton cheated on his wife,so have a lot of other men in this country. This must mean he isnt sleezy at all. Cheney helped make Haliburton lots of money,there are other people who have made companies lots of money too with shady backroom deals. This must mean its ok as well. Yay we now cant judge anyone on anything because hey there are other people who have made the same mistake.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
To me it smacks of "We were suckers but will never admit it". Sorry, but I'll look at the facts available and make up my own mind.



The really neat thing is.. you probably won't ever see the "facts"... just what is spoon fed to the media. While we believe we 'know' all the answers (I still chuckle when people post that "I knew there were no WMDs in Iraq!) we can only go on what is given to us. Unless someone wants to come clean and let us know they are in a position of power within the CIA.

[longshot]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by Hulkein
Tsah (sorry my tilde is still broken, don't shed tears)

I can't help it that you lack resourcefulness, but just for your comfort ... I never shed tears over any statement you make.



Hulkein, you have been defeated by "cut and paste".

Congratulations.

Edine, I understand that Michael Moore bothers you... but can you at least understand why some people see him as a patriot?

Can you also admit that your logic sucks?

My name is George Tenet.

[vigilante]

Originally posted by The Edine

Originally posted by vigilante

Originally posted by The Edine
Im still waiting.

Wow, I've got to agree with just about everyone here, Edine. You ARE dense if you cannot figure this one out. Do you normally throw the chess pieces at this point as well?:?:

was unable to find the source for your definition, it seems they did not have an online version. I was left to believe then that you fabricated your response when you transposed it from a student dictionary by leaving out a few key words. I am still waiting for you to present an example these lies.

A lie as I showed above is something said falsely with the intention to misinform. Both the 911 committee and now the senate Intelligence reports have given bush a free ride up to this point. I am asking for a factual example of a lie that has been given.

When it comes to Mr. Moore, his claiming it was in fact a typo, means he knew the truth in the first place. Having edited his own film I do not doubt that he has read the line many times, and because of that I am left to think two things about him; One, he lied, and called it a typo as an excuse, Two, he is a big fat idiot.
I think both are right.

Hey the Edine? Hello? I did not fabricate anything. I typed the definitions supplied exactly as they appeared in the dictionary I used. I gave you the name of the pulisher and the copyright year. There are plenty of links with reviews of their products, but they don't have [/i]online[/i] versions of their dictionaries because they design their dictionaries for use in the classroom.

Here you go, once again. I'm sorry if you hate Thorndike Barnhart. Why don't you write them and tell them of your disdain?

lie 1. something said that is not true. 2. speak falsely; tell a lie: He says that he has never lied, but I think he is lying when he says it. lied, lying.

Of course there are other definitions out there. I merely supplied you with one. The fact that you ran to your computer and pulled up dictionary.com is fine, you found definitions that imply intent is necessary. It isn't always necessary according to Thorndike Barnhart.

Once again, should you wish to express your disdain to the publishers, they have offices in Chicago, Atlanta, Palo Alto, and Fair Lawn, N.J.

I have no idea whether they have a link with an e-mail should you wish contact via your favorite route.

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
To me it smacks of "We were suckers but will never admit it". Sorry, but I'll look at the facts available and make up my own mind.



The really neat thing is.. you probably won't ever see the "facts"... just what is spoon fed to the media. While we believe we 'know' all the answers (I still chuckle when people post that "I knew there were no WMDs in Iraq!) we can only go on what is given to us. Unless someone wants to come clean and let us know they are in a position of power within the CIA.

Yeah, I don't suppose there are any UN weapons inspectors who post here either.

And that argument goes both ways. Just like people posting that there ARE weapons in Iraq.

Its over now. The UN inspectors were right. The Coalition was wrong.

The investigation will continue to see if the Administration pushed the CIA into providing fabricated evidence. I've already figured that one out on my own, based on, yes, you guessed it, old news and my own brain.

[vigilante]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by The Edine
1)A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2)Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lie

When you use a dictionary make sure you use all the words, you left out deliberately and the like out of your response, if you took it off of a website I would appreciate the link so I can verify your source.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by The Edine]


He pulled a Michael Moore to appear correct. :lol:



Is Merriam Webster acceptable? Yes it is, here is their definition.

Main Entry: 3lie
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): lied; ly·ing /'lI-i[ng]/
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English lEogan; akin to Old High German liogan to lie, Old Church Slavonic lugati
intransitive senses
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression
transitive senses : to bring about by telling lies <lied his way out of trouble>


Bush didn't intend to deceive anyone seeing as he believed the information given to him by a reputable establishment you might've heard of before... the CIA.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by Hulkein]

You believe that, smart guy. You found a legitimate definition that differs from mine because it implies intent. Guess what? Mine is also legitimate and it never mentions intent.

Not to concede George didn't intentionally deceive. Many credible sources within his intelligence groups believe he did. Regardless of the commission's final deliberations, their 'free ride' (as the Edine calls it) granted to Dubya really does not prove he did not deceive. It does not prove he did deceive either, but the fact is there are more than a few credible sources within the CIA who will testify that he DID.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by longshot
Hulkein, you have been defeated by "cut and paste".

Congratulations.

Hehehe, he knows I'm just kidding. My ` is alive and well.

Tsa`ah, I don't understand how it's just election politics... Chalk it up to me being too young to have any other firsthand experience I guess. I do have one question for you though. You say the panel concluded Clinton committed perjury. Wasn't that the actual case though? Didn't they do a good job of finding out the truth? If so then wouldn't that show that perhaps they are looking at facts not exposed to you and I, and have once again come to a conclussion of truth?

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by vigilante
You believe that, smart guy. You found a legitimate definition that differs from mine because it implies intent. Guess what? Mine is also legitimate and it never mentions intent.

Not to concede George didn't intentionally deceive. Many credible sources within his intelligence groups believe he did. Regardless of the commission's final deliberations, their 'free ride' (as the Edine calls it) granted to Dubya really does not prove he did not deceive. It does not prove he did deceive either, but the fact is there are more than a few credible sources within the CIA who will testify that he DID.


It doesn't really matter what I found. I don't think I'd be going too far out on a limb to say that most people believe a lie is only a lie when the person knowingly intends to deceive another.

People telling Colombus that the world was flat weren't 'lying' to him, they didn't know any better. You get my drift.

Of course people who dislike Bush for his social policies will use this against him though, that's perfectly understandable for politicians. I still believe, as a man, he did not lie.

Funny how yours lacks what the other two do "intent" for it to be a lie, yet all other sources presented have that.
You left out a word to make your argument. Give it up you got caught.

[vigilante]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by vigilante
You have no idea what Moore did or didn't do with regard to preparing/editing/revising his film. Bottom line is: he apologized for the error.Here's an analogy for you. I steal a knife and stab someone. Then I apologize for stealing the knife.

Michael Moore apologized for the TYPO (stealing the knife). He never mentioned the stabbing (putting words in Bush Sr.'s mouth).

You're right. I didn't talk about Bush when I said Michael Moore was immoral. That's because this is a Michael Moore thread (unless you honestly think Bush is a left wing hero). It's called being :offtopic:, and it's :mad:ed upon.
And Lan sure did NOT prove his, it was disprovedMichael Moore attributed words to Bush that were not Bush's. The fact that the words were incorrect is irrelevant. The fact that the words were there is the important part.

And now, for the most unbelievable statement of the thread, courtesy of Backlash...
We know the truth now.I never said Moore's movies were all lies. Nobody can lie all the time. But to deliver that statement with the implication that Michael Moore was the bringer of truth blows my mind.

Your analogy is weak. You still have no idea what you are talking about with regard to the editing process of Moore's film. I'm sure it's fun to guess though.

As for being 'on-topic,' this is quite possibly the most hilarious statement I have read from you. You have veered this discussion off-topic as much as any of us! So you want special privileges?

Oh, and a reminder, Moore's movies and most of his books are ABOUT Dubya, so my mentioning him is certainly not off-topic. Nice evasion of the central quesion though!

Nobody has ever asserted (to my knowledge) that Michael Moore is the 'bringer of truth' ... you exaggerate. However, many here have applauded him for uncovering truths that without his efforts might never be uncovered.

Truth and truths, there is a difference.

And for many of us, it is the questions Moore asks that so many are unwilling to ask that is so valuable.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
The investigation will continue to see if the Administration pushed the CIA into providing fabricated evidence. I've already figured that one out on my own, based on, yes, you guessed it, old news and my own brain.

Wasn't that question already answered by the committee? Or is it because you didn't like the answer.. so you believe it's not done.

Here.. have a sniffle face. :sniffle: